|
6.85 Planning Posts
Personal Notes - Alchemist gold change is fucking crazy, still inherently weak, just a crazy good farmer now
- Brain Sap reduced cost means even less reason to get Soul Ring (shouldn't get it anyways)
- Batrider's Agh's is completely wtf. Seems situational
- BH bounty reduction may still not be enough
- Chaos Knight may need more ASPD now/more justification to go ASPD (S&Y?)
- Dazzle's poison touch mana is good
- Disruptor Q is interesting
- Elder Titan just got an insane buff!
- Enchantress' Late-Game items will be insane
- Huge nerf on Gyro's ultimate
- Jakiro needs some changes on how Ice Path works in order to be more viable
- Keeper of the Light is OP
- Leshrac not so easy mid now
- Lich sacrifice change is amazing!!
- Cute change on Lifestealer, love it
- Lina changes not enough to be honest
- Lone Druid CD reduction is key
- Lycan OP!
- Time to farm games with Necrophos
- Ogre Magi change is sweeeeet!
- Oracle change on Fate's Edict suckssssssss
- IceFrog doesn't want to hurt QOP too hard
- Nice touch on Slardar, was so needed
- Storm Spirit farming will be harder now
- THESE TECHIES CHANGES WTF OMG
- Tidehunter touches are nice
- Terrorblade is fucking sick!
- Aghanim's on Undying is crazy good! But need the mana for it
- Surprised Ursa got a nerf
- Winter Wyvern no longer a must-pick
- Diffusal Blade touch is nice
- Eul's Scepter nerf was needed
- Glimmer Cape still good
- Heaven's Halberd being disassembled is awesome! Make HH, then disassemble into S&Y + whatever
- Might be worth getting HOTD more commonly than before to farm
- Medallion rush on Roshan (Lycan/Clinkz) not as efficient now. I wonder if you can still Rosh with Lycan in Jungle
- Moon Shard crazy cheap
- Phase Boots back into the mix!
- TP SCROLLS ARE SO CHEAP, JESUS!
Actual Schedule (CEST)
Day 1
- 1:30-2:30AM: out of bed and reading patch notes
- 2:30-3:00: Dividing up potential changes (see post below)
Day 2
- 9:00-10:30: Applying new 6.85 label to unchanged guides
- 10:30-12:00: Applying initial changes (quick one-item additions/removals)
- 12:00-12:30: Lunch
- 12:30-2:00: Skill Builds reviewed, setting up priority testing for the coming two weeks
- 2:00-3:30: Final changes, testing and review: internal feedback collected
- 4:00- : Public Feedback
Total Elapsed Time (including lunch/dinner):
|
|
|
Trees still all about living armor I would argue, it has the most value in laning phase of all of tree's abilities and falls off faster than the other abilities. Leech seed is usually best utilized just for its slow a lot of the time, as tree levels so slowly.
edit -
Ursa nerf isn't that surprising actually, his pub winrate was super high. However he was buffed in some ways that are less useful in pubs.
|
I'm pretty sure Chaos Knight wants a value point in E before 9 because, early on, the -armor effectively makes all his follow up attacks minicrit too. Transpose levels 6 and 9?
Lich can re-prioritize Sacrifice because he no longer needs to sacrifice when the wave's at a specific point (behind the tower) and therefore doesn't need extra Sacrifice points to synch his cooldown with the wave.
PA - I need to think about how to abuse the Dagger change, but my first guess is early game Orb of Venom and an earlier Basher.
Mango - revisit the Mango start on a few strength heroes like Clockwerk?
Moon Shard - I feel like the cost reduction should make it viable earlier somewhere to aid initiating, but not sure where. Slardar?
|
BTW some of the arc warden changes got reverted, spark wraith CD and dmg are back to their old values (mana cost increase remains though)
|
Applied Changes: September 25 (4:00 CEST)
Ogre Magi
Moved Orb of Venom to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
Troll Warlord (Middle)
Moved Phase Boots to Early Game
Moved Quelling Blade to Early Game
Moved Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Boots of Speed
Troll Warlord (Middle)
Moved Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
 Meepo
Moved Ring of Basilius to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
Skywrath (Middle)
Moved Bottle to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
Skywrath Mage (Lane)
Moved Null Talisman to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
 Shadow Shaman (Middle)
Moved Bottle to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
 Tiny (Middle)
Moved Bottle to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
Phoenix (Middle)
Moved Hand of Midas to Core Items
 Weaver (Middle)
Moved Bottle to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
 Beastmaster (Middle)
Moved Bottle to Core Items
Moved Boots of Speed to Core Items
Chaos Knight
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q W Q W W R R E E E R (1. Chaos Bolt 2. Reality Rift 3. Chaos Strike)
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
 Spectre
New Skill Build: Q W E W W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Desolate 2. Dispersion 3. Spectral Dagger)
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Morbid Mask to Core Items
Added Ring of Aquila to Core Items
Added Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Extension Items
Added Assault Cuirass to "Luxury Items"
Added Boots of Travel 2 to "Luxury Items"
Moved Radiance to Core Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Eye of Skadi to "Luxury Items"
Moved Abyssal Blade to "Luxury Items"
Removed Diffusal Blade (Level 1)
Centaur Warrunner
New Skill Build: Q W W E Q R W W Q Q R E E E (1. Double Edge 2. Hoof Stomp 3. Return)
 Batrider
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
 Tusk
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Oracle (Lane)
Oracle (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q E E Q E R E Q Q W R W W W (1. Purifying Flames 2. Fortune's End 3. Fate's Edict)
 Doom (Jungle)
Doom (Lane)
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Removed Tranquil Boots
Terrorblade
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
 Disruptor
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
 Morphling
New Skill Build: E Q Q E Q E Q E W R R W W W R (1. Waveform 2. Morph 3. Adaptive Strike)
Moved Manta Style to Core Items
Moved Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
 Dazzle
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Beastmaster (Lane)
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
 Slardar
Added Moon Shard to Extension Items
 Alchemist (Lane)
New Skill Build: E Q Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W (1. Acid Spray 2. Greevil's Greed 3. Unstable Concoction)
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game"
Added Maelstrom to "Early Game"
Added Quelling Blade to "Early Game"
Added Sange & Yasha to Core Items
Added Boots of Speed 2
Removed Medallion of Courage
Removed Shadow Blade
Removed Blink Dagger
Removed Solar Crest
Removed Silver Edge
Removed Daedalus
To watch for
-
 itemization needs to be redone, wait for patch to play out
- Double-check
 skill order
-
 redo Lane/Middle build for Kunkka again
- keep an eye on out on build order
- Holding off Enchanted Mango inclusion until more development
|
On September 25 2015 10:06 Nevuk wrote:
Trees still all about living armor I would argue, it has the most value in laning phase of all of tree's abilities and falls off faster than the other abilities. Leech seed is usually best utilized just for its slow a lot of the time, as tree levels so slowly.
edit -
Ursa nerf isn't that surprising actually, his pub winrate was super high. However he was buffed in some ways that are less useful in pubs.
That's what I was thinking too, but the lowered cost is pretty nice.
On September 25 2015 10:10 Buckyman wrote:
I'm pretty sure Chaos Knight wants a value point in E before 9 because, early on, the -armor effectively makes all his follow up attacks minicrit too. Transpose levels 6 and 9?
Lich can re-prioritize Sacrifice because he no longer needs to sacrifice when the wave's at a specific point (behind the tower) and therefore doesn't need extra Sacrifice points to synch his cooldown with the wave.
PA - I need to think about how to abuse the Dagger change, but my first guess is early game Orb of Venom and an earlier Basher.
Mango - revisit the Mango start on a few strength heroes like Clockwerk?
Moon Shard - I feel like the cost reduction should make it viable earlier somewhere to aid initiating, but not sure where. Slardar?
Yes, I was thinking an early point in E (level 1?) to help with potential last-hitting.
 Don't think the build ever changed, always had 2 points in it.
 First thought was Desolator
Mango: Would rather just not bother slotting it in guides except for a small pool of heroes (IO)
Moon Shard: I removed it on some heroes, so I gotta think about putting it back on. I know Yango is strongly against Extension Moon Shard
On September 25 2015 14:21 tehh4ck3r wrote:
BTW some of the arc warden changes got reverted, spark wraith CD and dmg are back to their old values (mana cost increase remains though)
Doesn't change the build, no?
|
Actual Schedule (CEST)
Day 1
- 1:30-2:30AM: out of bed and reading patch notes
- 2:30-3:00: Dividing up potential changes (see post below)
Day 2
- 9:00-10:30: Applying new 6.85 label to unchanged guides
- 10:30-12:00: Applying initial changes (quick one-item additions/removals)
- 12:00-12:30: Lunch
- 12:30-2:00: Skill Builds reviewed, setting up priority testing for the coming two weeks
- 2:00-4:00: Final changes, testing and review: internal feedback collected
- 4:00- : Public Feedback
Total Elapsed Time (including meals): 9 hours
Total changes made: approx. 65 changes
27 Guides applied
118 Guides remain unchanged
|
On September 25 2015 10:10 Buckyman wrote:
I'm pretty sure Chaos Knight wants a value point in E before 9 because, early on, the -armor effectively makes all his follow up attacks minicrit too. Transpose levels 6 and 9?
I have to agree with this. I used to enjoy playing CK a lot and frankly I used to like an early point in E sometimes anyway. With the armor reduction on it now it seems almost crass to not have at least one point much earlier to help with...well basically everything.
The current positioning of it in the guide at level 4 feels quite good. The two points in Chaos Bolt are super important and you can get away without the extra reality rift point quite so early.
Incidentally on a quick look-over of the Spectre guide (which feels like its in quite a good place, although the lack of emphasis on Diffusal Blade worries me a little) you've got in the description on the Radiance "otherwise your mid-game core item of Diffusal Blade" which is down specifically as an extension item. That might need a little rewording for clarification lest people get confused.
I'm not sure how to reconcile the two different ways to approach Spectre (farming Radiance vs fast Diffusal) without hugely over-complicating the guide though. Especially given the judgement needed to decide between the two.
I'll take a look over some of the other heroes I'm more familiar with later. Incidentally: hi Torte. I bumped into you on one of my Steam accounts the other day whilst playing CSGO. We got wrecked as a I recall and when I mentioned not having been on here in a while you said I should get back. 
|
On September 25 2015 23:17 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 10:10 Buckyman wrote:
I'm pretty sure Chaos Knight wants a value point in E before 9 because, early on, the -armor effectively makes all his follow up attacks minicrit too. Transpose levels 6 and 9? I have to agree with this. I used to enjoy playing CK a lot and frankly I used to like an early point in E sometimes anyway. With the armor reduction on it now it seems almost crass to not have at least one point much earlier to help with...well basically everything. The current positioning of it in the guide at level 4 feels quite good. The two points in Chaos Bolt are super important and you can get away without the extra reality rift point quite so early. Incidentally on a quick look-over of the Spectre guide (which feels like its in quite a good place, although the lack of emphasis on Diffusal Blade worries me a little) you've got in the description on the Radiance "otherwise your mid-game core item of Diffusal Blade" which is down specifically as an extension item. That might need a little rewording for clarification lest people get confused. I'm not sure how to reconcile the two different ways to approach Spectre (farming Radiance vs fast Diffusal) without hugely over-complicating the guide though. Especially given the judgement needed to decide between the two. I'll take a look over some of the other heroes I'm more familiar with later. Incidentally: hi Torte. I bumped into you on one of my Steam accounts the other day whilst playing CSGO. We got wrecked as a I recall and when I mentioned not having been on here in a while you said I should get back.
Yep, updated Chaos Knight just before.
I need to revise all the descriptions for the Hero Builds as they are very, very misleading and sometimes inaccurate.
The current Spectre guide should be how you want to play. Diffusal after Radiance is good, but Heart and Manta take priority.
Are you Myo when we played on Cache?
|
I was more thinking about those times when you need to fight really early and can't get the space to build a Radiance so you're forced into a drums/diffu early fight build (its not optimal but sometimes its the only option). But again its kinda hard to teach how to learn when to do that through a guide so I guess it doesn't matter too much so long as diffusal is on the list somewhere for people to pick up.
And yeah, that's the account I was on last night.
|
pa deso hasn't changed except in situations where you're just daggering and your teammates are hitting with a lot of physical damage... if you jump in then deso's applied regardless. and it still has the problem of locking your lifesteal options to vlads for as long as you want to use the deso orb.
|
On September 25 2015 17:37 Torte de Lini wrote:
Mango: Would rather just not bother slotting it in guides except for a small pool of heroes (IO)
I'm suggesting Mango as a "Starting item" rather than a "Situational item". For example, Kunkka (Lane) could start Salve, 1xTangos, Stout Shield, Branch, Mango, appreciate the extra sustain in lane (it's worth about 3 tangos) and cash in the mango during the first post-6 teamfight to alleviate some of his early game mana problems.
|
oh yea that no-stun alch build is incredibly greedy... in pubs i'd wager the most effective build is often 441 with earlygame items like blink medallion so you can actually do things. if you're going full ricing carry, i think bfury is better than mael, but i don't think you should encourage a ricing carry build at all.
maxing greed wasn't buffed, and it's often unlikely to be the game-winning build
|
I don't like an early point in CK E it's literally 10% chance lmao
its definitely worse than the extra damage from ur W which also gets huge cd reduction
|
On September 25 2015 23:43 -Celestial- wrote:I was more thinking about those times when you need to fight really early and can't get the space to build a Radiance so you're forced into a drums/diffu early fight build (its not optimal but sometimes its the only option). But again its kinda hard to teach how to learn when to do that through a guide so I guess it doesn't matter too much so long as diffusal is on the list somewhere for people to pick up. And yeah, that's the account I was on last night.
We can definitely split it into two different builds, but we changed the skill build into pure Radiance. We're going to let it play out then change it back if it is really troublesome.
On September 25 2015 23:58 Buckyman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 17:37 Torte de Lini wrote:
Mango: Would rather just not bother slotting it in guides except for a small pool of heroes (IO)
I'm suggesting Mango as a "Starting item" rather than a "Situational item". For example, Kunkka (Lane) could start Salve, 1xTangos, Stout Shield, Branch, Mango, appreciate the extra sustain in lane (it's worth about 3 tangos) and cash in the mango during the first post-6 teamfight to alleviate some of his early game mana problems.
Yeah, I figured that's what you were referring to. I wasn't seeing it consistently being bought last patch; it's an even bigger reason to buy it now, but I'm waiting to start seeing it come into common play as I am not too comfortable putting them in Starting Items yet.
On September 26 2015 00:13 Sn0_Man wrote:
I don't like an early point in CK E it's literally 10% chance lmao
its definitely worse than the extra damage from ur W which also gets huge cd reduction
We're going to let it play out. I've seen people go E first which is way off, but an early point in E with two points in Q is not necessarily awful. Let's see how it goes for the first week.
|
It's not that the first point in E is bad (It's in fact very good) it's that the other skills scale so well with levels that it's very hard to justify not levelling them IMO.
|
can someone else back me up on discouraging 4 0 4 alch that shit's definitely not what "standard" alch should be
|
On September 26 2015 00:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
It's not that the first point in E is bad (It's in fact very good) it's that the other skills scale so well with levels that it's very hard to justify not levelling them IMO.
Ultimately, we want to push promotion into using E early on which was gotten on occasion in the past. Level 4 is the only ideal time to get it (2 points in stun, 1 reality rift).
|
depends
if ur mid alch ur prolly 4-4-1-2 @11 like u were arguing
if ur safelane alch ur prolly x-x-4-1 @7 depending on ur lane kill ability
if ur offlane (aka ancient stacking xd) ur 4-1-1-1 @7 as well
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
1 point in E, max Leech Seed?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gXB7VOB.png)
Unchanged Skill Build (max Thirst, Bloodrage second)
Itemization may need to be reconsidered (doubtful)
