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On December 12 2014 20:30 ahswtini wrote:
i dont agree with that assessment above, the reasoning that you are saving all your mana for fissure into echo at lvl 7 is only valid if you're going to be literally sitting around with your finger up your ass for the first 6 levels. you want to trade an extra 50 attack damage plus a stun, for an extra 25 magic damage and 0.3s of stun that you're realistically only going to proc when you waddle in and echo?
checking dotabuff, most of the top 10 es players will take an early point in enchant, and i checked that those weren't games where they were going the mike tyson build. all im saying is that early enchant build is hardly the unusual build that you seem to be making it out to be. perhaps some BLUE STRATEGIC POSTERS can chip in on this.
I was meant to play some with Earthshaker with early level of Ench. Totem (lvl 4), but I never got around to it. The way I play ES is a lot of roaming and ganking, so I never got Enchant Totem anyways.
So I will try a more lane relevant ES
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United States60190 Posts
On December 13 2014 00:48 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2014 20:30 ahswtini wrote:
i dont agree with that assessment above, the reasoning that you are saving all your mana for fissure into echo at lvl 7 is only valid if you're going to be literally sitting around with your finger up your ass for the first 6 levels. you want to trade an extra 50 attack damage plus a stun, for an extra 25 magic damage and 0.3s of stun that you're realistically only going to proc when you waddle in and echo?
checking dotabuff, most of the top 10 es players will take an early point in enchant, and i checked that those weren't games where they were going the mike tyson build. all im saying is that early enchant build is hardly the unusual build that you seem to be making it out to be. perhaps some BLUE STRATEGIC POSTERS can chip in on this. I was meant to play some with Earthshaker with early level of Ench. Totem (lvl 4), but I never got around to it. The way I play ES is a lot of roaming and ganking, so I never got Enchant Totem anyways. So I will try a more lane relevant ES
The issue with putting more points into aftershock over totem is that even you are ganking at like level 5 or so, you are likely hitting fissures from so far away it doesn't even matter. And I can't remember a game I played when I got to drop my ult right at level 6. ES is a weird hero because he ult is awesome, but you don't make a special effort to break it out at 6 like you do with a Puck or Enigma.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 12 2014 20:30 ahswtini wrote:
i dont agree with that assessment above, the reasoning that you are saving all your mana for fissure into echo at lvl 7 is only valid if you're going to be literally sitting around with your finger up your ass for the first 6 levels. you want to trade an extra 50 attack damage plus a stun, for an extra 25 magic damage and 0.3s of stun that you're realistically only going to proc when you waddle in and echo?
checking dotabuff, most of the top 10 es players will take an early point in enchant, and i checked that those weren't games where they were going the mike tyson build. all im saying is that early enchant build is hardly the unusual build that you seem to be making it out to be. perhaps some BLUE STRATEGIC POSTERS can chip in on this.
Nobody also does offlane 2v2 Shaker anymore in the kind of scenario where I described where it's worth it.
I said at the time it's situational and either way is fine if you know what kind of game to play it in. You don't need the level 6+ Fissure->Echo example for the same reasoning to apply because even pre-6 you're still choosing between an Enchant totem now vs. a 2nd Fissure 15s later a ton of the time due to how shit your early mana is.
The "right" way to play this out is to hold the skill point until you have a situation where using the Enchant is worth it, but there's no way for Torte to express this in a guide (and situational skill selection has probably been the #1 flaw of this guide format since its inception). Pretty much every skill order discussion has been like this (Kunkka, Ember, etc.)--there's not a 100% right way to skill the hero, so Torte picks one way when the right answer is to somehow find a way to express that you have to choose between the two based on the game.
@Torte: I don't really like the way you quoted my post because in context it was meant to express that Totem at 8 isn't wrong and that Totem at 2/4/8 depends on the game but you read it as me saying that Totem at 8 is the definitive right answer.
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http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-strategy/473296-charging-flying-lazoring-space-cow?page=last
Worth a read for Spirit Breaker suggestions. I'm still an advocate of SnY on him instead of MoM (espeically for all the pubbers that insist on putting him in the safelane as the carry) but I think Dagon can be legit too. Unfortunately I think it requires that he be played in the offlane (since rushing a Dagon on your safelane farmer is pretty underwhelming IMO) and with the way you currently have your guides set up I don't think it's really possible to reflect that.
Also, why does the Weaver Lane build still have Maelstrom as core? I thought we decided to move it to situational.
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On December 13 2014 17:24 tehh4ck3r wrote:http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-strategy/473296-charging-flying-lazoring-space-cow?page=last Worth a read for Spirit Breaker suggestions. I'm still an advocate of SnY on him instead of MoM (espeically for all the pubbers that insist on putting him in the safelane as the carry) but I think Dagon can be legit too. Unfortunately I think it requires that he be played in the offlane (since rushing a Dagon on your safelane farmer is pretty underwhelming IMO) and with the way you currently have your guides set up I don't think it's really possible to reflect that. Also, why does the Weaver Lane build still have Maelstrom as core? I thought we decided to move it to situational.
I will fix Weaver Lane, that's an error I believe
I will add S&Y to situational.
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SoCal8910 Posts
IMO blink is more core than dagon on nyx. i would say that dagon is an extension item, for the most part bc its hard to get to dagon 5
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On December 14 2014 13:21 BluemoonSC wrote:
IMO blink is more core than dagon on nyx. i would say that dagon is an extension item, for the most part bc its hard to get to dagon 5
It's core for Lane Nyx, but the Dagon nyx is definitely working fine (just played a game as nyx)
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On December 14 2014 18:52 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 13:21 BluemoonSC wrote:
IMO blink is more core than dagon on nyx. i would say that dagon is an extension item, for the most part bc its hard to get to dagon 5 It's core for Lane Nyx, but the Dagon nyx is definitely working fine (just played a game as nyx)
as opposed to...jungle nyx?
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On December 14 2014 23:47 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 18:52 Torte de Lini wrote:On December 14 2014 13:21 BluemoonSC wrote:
IMO blink is more core than dagon on nyx. i would say that dagon is an extension item, for the most part bc its hard to get to dagon 5 It's core for Lane Nyx, but the Dagon nyx is definitely working fine (just played a game as nyx) as opposed to...jungle nyx?
huh?
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On December 14 2014 23:47 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 18:52 Torte de Lini wrote:On December 14 2014 13:21 BluemoonSC wrote:
IMO blink is more core than dagon on nyx. i would say that dagon is an extension item, for the most part bc its hard to get to dagon 5 It's core for Lane Nyx, but the Dagon nyx is definitely working fine (just played a game as nyx) as opposed to...jungle nyx?
As opposed to Mid Nyx.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 14 2014 23:47 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 18:52 Torte de Lini wrote:On December 14 2014 13:21 BluemoonSC wrote:
IMO blink is more core than dagon on nyx. i would say that dagon is an extension item, for the most part bc its hard to get to dagon 5 It's core for Lane Nyx, but the Dagon nyx is definitely working fine (just played a game as nyx) as opposed to...jungle nyx?
Torte doesn't like distinguishing between supports and cores in sidelanes so anything that's played in a sidelane gets called "Lane".
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lol
I mean, it's not like I made it for personal reasons.
Oh and stats on the 16th (not 15th) to compensate for my day-late stats of last time (Dec 1st)
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Oracle (Lane)
Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
 Rubick
Removed Bottle
Added Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Nature's Prophet
Rearranged Item Build:
Core Items - Carry: Hand of Midas, Phase Boots, Mjollnir
Core Items - Pusher: Hand of Midas, Power Treads, Shadow Blade, Necromonicon
Core Items - Ganker: Phase Boots, Dagon, Orchid of Malevolence
Situational Items: Medallion of Courage, Black King Bar, Orchid of Malevolence, Monkey King Bar
Extension Tabs: Daedalus, Desolator, Scythe of Vyse
Nyx Assassin (Middle)
Added Blink Dagger to Extension Items
 Earthshaker
Added Veil of Discord to Situational Items
Added Force Staff to Situational Items
 Weaver (Lane)
Moved Maelstrom to Situational Items
Spirit Breaker
Added Sange & Yasha
Added Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
 Kunkka (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W W E E R E Q Q Q R W W (1. Torrent 2. Tidebringer 3. X Marks the Spot)
Abaddon
Removed Necromonicon
Removed Bottle
Added New Tab: "Core - Mekansm"
Core Items: Tranquil Boots, Urn of Shadows, Drums of Endurance
Core - Mekansm: Arcane Boots, Mekansm, Vladmir's Offering
Situational Items: Blade Mail, Sange & Yasha, Heaven's Halberd, Skull Basher
Earthshaker
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W (1. Fissure 2. Aftershock 3. Enchant Totem)
Added Black King Bar to Situational Items
Moved Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Removed Scythe of Vyse
Remade Guide
 Alchemist (Lane)
Skill Build: W Q E Q Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Acid Spray 2. Unstable Concoction 3. Greevil's Greed)
Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tangos, 3x Iron Branches
Core Items: Power Treads, Shadow Blade, Maelstrom, Black King Bar
Situational Items: Soul Ring, Sange & Yasha, Heaven's Halberd, Assault Cuirass
Extension Items: Mjollnir, Abyssal Blade, Daedalus, Butterfly, Heart of Tarrasque
New Guide
Alchemist (Middle)
Skill Build: W Q W Q W R W Q Q E R E E E R (1. Unstable Concoction 2. Acid Spray 3. Greevil's Greed)
Starting Items: 2x Clarity, Tangos, 3x Iron Branches
Core Items: Wand, Phase Boots, Medallion of Courage, Blink Dagger
Situational Items: Urn of Shadows, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Black King Bar
Extension Items: Blade Mail, Vladmir's Offering, Crimson Guard, Sange & Yasha
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I'm finding Alchemist's item-build a bit awkward.
I'll fix Abaddon's
and I'll look into Lone Druid
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United States47024 Posts
Is your Alch build geared toward being a support or a carry? Right now you sort of have an in-between build that's kind of not good for either and omits important items for both.
If it's for support, you shouldn't be leveling Greed at all before maxing your nukes, shouldn't really focus at all on getting DPS items, certainly not as part of the core build (Blink Dagger is more compelling than Lothar's as a support), and the starting items need to be fixed (if you're going to be a roaming support, then you need more consumables/support items and the Stout won't help you that much since you're not laning).
If it's for carry, then Soul Ring is still legitimate as a situational farming item in difficult lanes, and you're still more likely to max Spray or even-level Concoction and Spray than you are to max Concoction. You'd also need more emphasis on carry items like Heart/Armlet/etc.
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On December 16 2014 02:50 TheYango wrote:
Is your Alch build geared toward being a support or a carry? Right now you sort of have an in-between build that's kind of not good for either and omits important items for both.
If it's for support, you shouldn't be leveling Greed at all before maxing your nukes, shouldn't really focus at all on getting DPS items, certainly not as part of the core build (Blink Dagger is more compelling than Lothar's as a support), and the starting items need to be fixed (if you're going to be a roaming support, then you need more consumables/support items and the Stout won't help you that much since you're not laning).
If it's for carry, then Soul Ring is still legitimate as a situational farming item in difficult lanes, and you're still more likely to max Spray or even-level Concoction and Spray than you are to max Concoction. You'd also need more emphasis on carry items like Heart/Armlet/etc.
I was just going for ganker.
I'm following Dotabuff in terms of transition where they get a lot of ganking items and build (I'll remove Greevil's Greed) and then transition into farming
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/86738694/matches?hero=alchemist
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United States47024 Posts
That's a horribly nonspecific way to answer my question lol.
EDIT: Oh you added more.
Again, the hero's itemization changes a lot whether you mean to play him as a support or as the farmer on the lane.
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On December 16 2014 02:54 TheYango wrote:
That's a horribly nonspecific way to answer my question lol.
During the early game, he is roaming with medallion, shadow blade, etc.
When his Greevil's Greed starts kicking in at 10, he transitions into Maelstrom/attack speed and then take advantage of that attack speed with stuns that proc.
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EPT
