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On November 22 2014 04:56 TheYango wrote:
No.
Oracle mid's relative burst maxes out at 7-9 because he has 2 nukes and a non-nuke ult. Even if you want an "offensive" first item it would be Blink or Force, followed by Mek second. By the time you'd finish Orchid he'd be far past his prime in terms of solo-killing ability.
I'll just reverse it and let it go.
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United States47024 Posts
I still don't think Mid Oracle needs Fate's Edict before level 8.
And don't go Eul's first, lol. If you don't want to go Mek first (and its kind of wrong not to, because this hero wants a Mek up and will probably get one faster than his teammates), Eul's isn't really the alternative.
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Totally different topic: is Shadow Blade still needed on Alchemist? I've honestly found blink dagger to be much better on him for initiation and if you're getting a Malestrom/Mjollnir on him the extra attack speed is not super vital.
(Take my opinions on Alchemist with a pretty big grain of salt; i have a 14% winrate on the hero ;_;)
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United States47024 Posts
Game dependent. Shadow Blade's always kind of good cuz pubs, but there are definitely games for Blink.
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Suggestions for pretty much every hero incoming (wall of text!):
Batrider:
Mask of Madness is worth adding to situational
Beastmaster:
Middle should definitely have boots of travel as extension (you can use BoTs + Hawk to gank anywhere on the map)
Clinkz:
Add BKB as core
Dark Seer:
Blink Dagger & BKB should be situational and Refresher should be in extension items
Enigma:
Remove radiance (you can just get aghs if you need the extra damage. I can’t think of any other situation where you would need radiance)
Dragon Knight:
Lane build can get bottle instead of soul ring
Invoker:
Add a branch to starting items as well
Legion Commander:
Mjollnir (not just maelstrom) should definitely be added as extension items
Lifestealer:
I think OoV is worth adding on the lane guide & it may also be worth having the 2 sets of options as core items on LS (Armlet & Basher vs Drums and SnY)
Naga Siren:
I think it's worth getting bottle on Naga Siren safelane farming (especially if you're building a radiance since you need some form of sustain for her while farming)
Nyx Assassin:
Force Staff should be added to situational (on both Lane and Middle) and Middle should have Blink Dagger as core in addition to Dagon
Phantom Lancer:
BKB should be added to situational & you might want to add the trick about stacking HotD, Diffusal, and Skadi (might be a bit too advanced for your guides though)
Pudge:
I would have blink as a core item
Sand King:
I would remove Urn from core items
Skywrath Mage:
Bloodstone should be added as extension on Skywrath Middle build (and consider removing force staff)
Slardar:
I would add blink dagger to both sets of core items (ganker & carry)
Spirit Breaker:
I think it’s worth re-thinking Mask of Madness as it doesn’t give the hero much at all, the attack speed is wasted on a hero with a higher BAT. It might be worth turning the hero into a support/utility guide- maybe with Euls as a core item? If you want to keep the current general build style it might be worth replacing the mask of madness with SnY (gives you damage from your right clicks and gives you damage on your bash from the increased movespeed. Honestly SnY seems to me like a pretty damn good item on space cow)
Sven:
Might be worth adding Blink Dagger to Situational
Templar Assassin:
I think MKB is mistakenly placed under the “Instead of Blink” section- should be in extension items instead.
Tidehunter:
Add mek to situational
Timbersaw:
Possibly add blink to situational?
Tinker:
I would remove Aghs from the “Damage-Dealer Items” section & add a bloodstone and BKB as extension/situational items.
Tiny:
AC Should be in extension items, not just core for the Ganker build
Undying:
Crimson Guard is worth putting in situational
Vengeful Spirit:
Blink dagger is a possibility as situational (but I don’t think I’ve played enough venge to know if it’s really core or not)
Weaver:
Lane build still has maelstrom as core, I thought we decided it was supposed to be in situational?
Windrunner:
Might be worth making a separate Middle guide with Aghs and Maelstrom as core items. I think aghs should be added as situational to the lane build as well
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Jakiro would seem to do more for his team with Arcane's than Tranquil; why the change?
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On November 22 2014 11:02 HappyHubris wrote:
Jakiro would seem to do more for his team with Arcane's than Tranquil; why the change?
Because Jakiro is becoming more popular as a core rather than a support; Euls gives him the mana he needs & he builds tranquils since he doesn't have much armor. Similar reasoning as to why you build tranquils on Visage instead of arcanes.
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United States47024 Posts
Arcanes also was largely a choice made when Dual Breath and Ice Path were the 2 core skills to max. The shift toward Liquid Fire being a skill that's leveled up early delays Jakiro's mana demands such that he does not necessarily need his mana issues to be resolved by boot choice and can wait for his first core item.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On November 22 2014 09:09 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Dark Seer:
Blink Dagger & BKB should be situational and Refresher should be in extension items
Dragon Knight:
Lane build can get bottle instead of soul ring
Naga Siren:
I think it's worth getting bottle on Naga Siren safelane farming (especially if you're building a radiance since you need some form of sustain for her while.
Sand King:
I would remove Urn from core items
Skywrath Mage:
Bloodstone should be added as extension on Skywrath Middle build (and consider removing force staff)
Spirit Breaker:
I think it’s worth re-thinking Mask of Madness as it doesn’t give the hero much at all, the attack speed is wasted on a hero with a higher BAT. It might be worth turning the hero into a support/utility guide- maybe with Euls as a core item? If you want to keep the current general build style it might be worth replacing the mask of madness with SnY (gives you damage from your right clicks and gives you damage on your bash from the increased movespeed. Honestly SnY seems to me like a pretty damn good item on space cow)
Tiny:
AC Should be in extension items, not just core for the Ganker.
Vengeful Spirit:
Blink dagger is a possibility as situational (but I don’t think I’ve played enough venge to know if it’s really core or not)
Blink dagger is 100% core on ds bc he needs to have a positioning tool to make sure he lands vac wall.
Dragons blood and soul ring work too well together and you rely on your team helping you secure runes as well as having to leave the lane to pick up the rune when uou should be farming.
Same with naga. 700G on a bottle when you have safelane farm and don't wanna leave the lane is too much of a dent towards her necessary item progression. Support is a different story.
Sk..highly debatable. Sk suffers from mana issues and the urn helps with that. Plus at 6 (e: and even before that) he's gonna wanna be fighting which means he'll be gaining tons of charges.
Skywrath needs int and positioning items. Force staff does both. Have you ever seen a skywrath force up, conc shot into his ulti combo? Shit is stupid good.
Spirit breaker, you get mask of madness for the movement speed bonus and the increased attack speed for the bash procs and other items can give you those things..but nothing else comes online and provides both of those AND be built as fast as mom does...plus lifesteal to regen after a fight is nice.
Tiny really REALLY needs the armor and attack speed. Ac givs both.
Venge..another hero that requires positioning. It's hard to pass up a blink if you have the farm.
Just my 2c.
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 Jakiro
New Skill Build: E W E Q E R E W W W R Q Q Q (1. Liquid Fire 2. Ice Path 1. Dual Breath)
Removed Arcane Boots
Removed Urn of Shadows
Moved Eul's Scepter to Core Items
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Ogre Magi
Added Orb of Venom to Early Game
Moved Bottle to Situational Items
 Timbersaw
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items
Added Blade Mail to Situational Items
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Removed Power Treads
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Ancient Apparition (lane)
Removed Mekansm
New Guide
Oracle (Lane)
Skill Build: Q W E E E R E Q Q Q R W W W (1. Purifying Flames 2. Fortune's End 3. Fate's Edict)
Starting Items: Courier/Observer Wards, 3x Iron Branches, Tangos, Clarity, Healing Salve
Early Game: Boots of Speed, Magic Wand
Core Items: Arcane Boots, Urn of Shadows, Mekansm, Eul's Scepter of Divinity,
Situational Items: Bottle, Force Staff, Orchid of Malevolence, Dagon
Extension Items: Ethereal Blade, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse
New Guide
Oracle (Middle)
Skill Build: Q E E W E R E Q Q Q R W W W (1. Purifying Flames 2. Fortune's End 3. Fate's Edict)
Starting Items: Mantle of Intelligence, 2x Iron Branches, Tangos,
Early Game: Bottle, Boots of Speed
Core Items: Arcane Boots, Urn of Shadows, , Eul's Scepter of Divinity,
Situational Items: Force Staff, Mekansm, Dagon
Extension Items: Ethereal Blade, Orchid of Malevolence, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 22 2014 09:09 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Suggestions for pretty much every hero incoming (wall of text!):
Batrider:
Mask of Madness is worth adding to situational
I would prefer putting Phase on Situational rather than an item that is only half-intended
Beastmaster:
Middle should definitely have boots of travel as extension (you can use BoTs + Hawk to gank anywhere on the map)
I can do that
Clinkz:
Add BKB as core
Typically you're ganking with Orchid, meaning no one can disrupt your cast or you kill them fast enough to be unable to stun-lock you. I can add it as situational
Dark Seer:
Blink Dagger & BKB should be situational and Refresher should be in extension items
Refresher will go to Extension Items, I can put Blink Dagger in Situational Items. The Surge should give you movement options and I feel Blink is still flavour of the month/becoming that universally situational item for most heroes
Enigma:
Remove radiance (you can just get aghs if you need the extra damage. I can’t think of any other situation where you would need radiance)
yes, I will remove Radiance
Dragon Knight:
Lane build can get bottle instead of soul ring
The combination still works, so we'll keep soul ring
Invoker:
Add a branch to starting items as well
ok
Legion Commander:
Mjollnir (not just maelstrom) should definitely be added as extension items
The point of Maelstrom was for the farming capabilities, is Mjollnir needed regardless?
Lifestealer:
I think OoV is worth adding on the lane guide & it may also be worth having the 2 sets of options as core items on LS (Armlet & Basher vs Drums and SnY)
Yes, I can do that, I was thinking of the dual-core idea as well, but felt they were still very similar to be split and should be bought interchangeably
Naga Siren:
I think it's worth getting bottle on Naga Siren safelane farming (especially if you're building a radiance since you need some form of sustain for her while farming)
Nyx Assassin:
Force Staff should be added to situational (on both Lane and Middle) and Middle should have Blink Dagger as core in addition to Dagon
Phantom Lancer:
BKB should be added to situational & you might want to add the trick about stacking HotD, Diffusal, and Skadi (might be a bit too advanced for your guides though)
We accept HOTD/Skadi combination working, but typically all three with the dropping and such is not worth the mention because I dont think I have the desc. box for it
Pudge:
I would have blink as a core item
yes
Sand King:
I would remove Urn from core items
Urn will promote a more active Sand King and floats him to Arcane
Skywrath Mage:
Bloodstone should be added as extension on Skywrath Middle build (and consider removing force staff)
Force Staff is considered a pinnacle item for Skywrath, I also think Bloodstone is over emphasized by all Skywrath players, I'll take another look, but it would probably be for the middle version
Slardar:
I would add blink dagger to both sets of core items (ganker & carry)
I'll take a look
Spirit Breaker:
I think it’s worth re-thinking Mask of Madness as it doesn’t give the hero much at all, the attack speed is wasted on a hero with a higher BAT. It might be worth turning the hero into a support/utility guide- maybe with Euls as a core item? If you want to keep the current general build style it might be worth replacing the mask of madness with SnY (gives you damage from your right clicks and gives you damage on your bash from the increased movespeed. Honestly SnY seems to me like a pretty damn good item on space cow)
S&Y can be situational, but as far as I know, MoM still achieves everything SB wants. I was considering of doing a Mid-SB guide that would be more utility, probably not
Sven:
Might be worth adding Blink Dagger to Situational
See Dark Seer comment
Templar Assassin:
I think MKB is mistakenly placed under the “Instead of Blink” section- should be in extension items instead.
Fixed
Tidehunter:
Add mek to situational
Was removed before and replaced with Crimson Guard
Timbersaw:
Possibly add blink to situational?
See Dark Seer comment
Tinker:
I would remove Aghs from the “Damage-Dealer Items” section & add a bloodstone and BKB as extension/situational items.
I don't think BKB is needed and bloodstone neither considering how we have soul ring + bottle + the TP combo. Something to consider however
Tiny:
AC Should be in extension items, not just core for the Ganker build
I'll take another look, that might be an overlooked error
Undying:
Crimson Guard is worth putting in situational
Sounds situationally good, yes
Vengeful Spirit:
Blink dagger is a possibility as situational (but I don’t think I’ve played enough venge to know if it’s really core or not)
See Dark Seer comment, I've seen it done a bit
Weaver:
Lane build still has maelstrom as core, I thought we decided it was supposed to be in situational?
I think I moved it for Mid, but not Lane. I'll fix it
Windrunner:
Might be worth making a separate Middle guide with Aghs and Maelstrom as core items. I think aghs should be added as situational to the lane build as well
I don't think I'm familiar enough with Windranger to make a middle version
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On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Batrider:
Mask of Madness is worth adding to situational
I would prefer putting Phase on Situational rather than an item that is only half-intended
phase boots is never built on batrider; it's always tranquils (or brown boots) into travels, and mom is an extension item after that.
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Clinkz:
Add BKB as core
Typically you're ganking with Orchid, meaning no one can disrupt your cast or you kill them fast enough to be unable to stun-lock you. I can add it as situational
clinkz needs a bkb to deal with any highground or roshan fights, you can't take it for granted that he'll always get a clean pick just with orchid. orchid only disables 1 hero (and can be purged with bkb), and games, especially in this patch, tend to have a lot of teamfights involving more than just clinkz + 1 victim
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Dragon Knight:
Lane build can get bottle instead of soul ring
The combination still works, so we'll keep soul ring
when you have a bottle, soul ring sometimes becomes excessive; dk isn't like a storm where an extra burst of mana will almost always be useful. i'd put soul ring in situational.
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Legion Commander:
Mjollnir (not just maelstrom) should definitely be added as extension items
The point of Maelstrom was for the farming capabilities, is Mjollnir needed regardless?
putting static charge from mjollnir on yourself before a duel gives a lot of aoe damage from the procs, it's usually worth finishing the upgrade (though often after bkb or ac or other more core items)
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Sand King:
I would remove Urn from core items
Urn will promote a more active Sand King and floats him to Arcane
it's pretty situational whether you want an active sand king or one that's rushing blink/arcanes via efficient jungle stacking and clearing, both have their places. i agree that if sand king is the only urn carrier in the game he should get it though.
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Skywrath Mage:
Bloodstone should be added as extension on Skywrath Middle build (and consider removing force staff)
Force Staff is considered a pinnacle item for Skywrath, I also think Bloodstone is over emphasized by all Skywrath players, I'll take another look, but it would probably be for the middle version
i agree here, force staff / ghost scepter >>> bloodstone, playing skywrath as a core is simply too greedy in high level tryhard play; he's way too easy to kill to invest a bloodstone into
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Slardar:
I would add blink dagger to both sets of core items (ganker & carry)
I'll take a look
this is 100% the correct suggestion, slardar without an early blink tends to have huge problems getting enough pickoffs to keep up with harder carries in the midgame
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Spirit Breaker:
I think it’s worth re-thinking Mask of Madness as it doesn’t give the hero much at all, the attack speed is wasted on a hero with a higher BAT. It might be worth turning the hero into a support/utility guide- maybe with Euls as a core item? If you want to keep the current general build style it might be worth replacing the mask of madness with SnY (gives you damage from your right clicks and gives you damage on your bash from the increased movespeed. Honestly SnY seems to me like a pretty damn good item on space cow)
S&Y can be situational, but as far as I know, MoM still achieves everything SB wants. I was considering of doing a Mid-SB guide that would be more utility, probably not
yea i think MoM is fine here
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Tidehunter:
Add mek to situational
Was removed before and replaced with Crimson Guard
i think mek is a more common situational item than crimson guard; the vanguard is redundant with kraken shell so it's awkward for tide to carry, but of course in games where crimson is good and tide is the most natural carrier he can still get it.
On November 22 2014 23:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Tinker:
I would remove Aghs from the “Damage-Dealer Items” section & add a bloodstone and BKB as extension/situational items.
I don't think BKB is needed and bloodstone neither considering how we have soul ring + bottle + the TP combo. Something to consider however
I think you have to rethink your tinker philosophy here, soul ring + bottle + tp are the first core items, but dagon 5 / eth blade / hex / bloodstone / bkb / shivas are the 6 most common extension items for tinker lategame; bloodstone in particular allows tinker to stay out of the base for longer periods and stack 4-5 marches over a zone for area control, which is important in sieging high ground for tinker's team, which may lack a traditionally farmed highgrounding hard carry since tinker tends to eat up so much farm over the course of the game. bkb is situationally necessary just for tinker to be able to blink and chase in aggressively against non-rightclickers, but all of tinker's items after the travels are situational in which ones you get in which order, though it's usually either dagon or hex first
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Blink Dagger on Vengeful Spirit? Given that Force Staff is considered core, there are about 5 different items I'd add to the guide before Blink Dagger.
Off the top of my head: Ghost Sceptre, Ring of Basilius/Vlad's, Shiva's Guard, Mek, Pipe
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United States47024 Posts
Blink is more practical and common to buy than the last 3. Ghost should be there 100% though and Vlad situationally.
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Slardar and Sven are not cases of blinkg being fotm. They got blink far before it became something almost every hero can get. It's just an even better item for them now. Same thing could be said about Dark Seer, the hero hasn't even been picked in a long time, but for him Blink was exceptionally good for setting up Vaccum combos with your teammates, so it may not be as core for a pub item.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't know how Blink got OFF the Carry Slardar item list, because last time we had this discussion, I thought it was pretty clear that Carry Slardar still absolutely needs Blink, it's just a matter of WHEN you buy it.
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Shiva's is a high impact Extension item. It means that Swap not only forces one of them out of position, but also applies an instant move speed debuff to their nearby teammates and puts any blink daggers on cooldown.
Mek and Pipe are simply too good not to have on a team, and position 4 Venge should build one of the two over Blink most of the time, if her teammates don't.
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SoCal8910 Posts
but you're expecting a position 4 venge to farm up all of these things. if they are extension items, they all have their place in some situations..however we are talking about what belongs in her core repertoire..for someone like venge whose position for a good swap is super crucial, I see under no circumstance a situation where, if you had the money, you wouldn't get a blink dagger.
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Also, I'm not super-sold on Desolator being in VS's items at all; it's a good item on her if she's in a farming role but the rest of the guide is oriented towards a support role VS so desolator there doesn't really make sense.
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EPT
