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On November 23 2014 02:47 BluemoonSC wrote:
but you're expecting a position 4 venge to farm up all of these things. if they are extension items, they all have their place in some situations..however we are talking about what belongs in her core repertoire..for someone like venge whose position for a good swap is super crucial, I see under no circumstance a situation where, if you had the money, you wouldn't get a blink dagger.
I can think of at least two such circumstances:
*The team really needs a mek
*The team really needs a pipe
If you're replacing Force staff with Blink Dagger, that's fine.
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SoCal8933 Posts
a 4 position venge farming 7k worth of items but having no mobility to execute one of the reasons you PICK a venge. ok.
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OK, I think I see the problem.
I'm assuming these additional Situational items (mek/pipe/blink) only get picked up after enough Core items that they make sense, in this case after boots and force staff.
You seem to be assuming that I mean boots -> Medallion-> (mek or blink argument) -> pipe -> Force Staff.
(E) Mek first Venge is reasonable, but a completely different build that sacrifices initiation for staying power.
(E2) My bad, I misundestood what you meant by "no mobility".
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SoCal8933 Posts
On November 23 2014 03:02 Buckyman wrote:
OK, I think I see the problem.
I'm assuming these additional Situational items (mek/pipe/blink) only get picked up after enough Core items that they make sense, in this case after boots and force staff.
You seem to be assuming that I mean boots -> Medallion-> (mek or blink argument) -> pipe -> Force Staff.
no I'm questioning why any of those would benefit you over picking up blink on a vengeful spirit to take advantage of your skill set (swap and a stun). I play a lot of venge so you're gonna have to really sell this to me.
this is derailed, if you want to discuss it further, we need to go to the VS thread and not clutter this one up.
EDIT: please keep in mind we're playing a support venge in this discussion...not a carry role with guaranteed farm. you need to budget your items and getting EVERYTHING on a 4 position is just impossible at any level of play unless the game is a complete stomp.
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re: oracle
imo w almost always has the best utility level 1, because you can use it to deny and harass for much less mana than q
orchid is still crap i don't know how you still think it's good on oracle
i don't know why you consider eul's core
i don't know why you made this guide when you scarcely seem to understand the hero
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On November 23 2014 15:36 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
re: oracle
imo w almost always has the best utility level 1, because you can use it to deny and harass for much less mana than q
orchid is still crap i don't know how you still think it's good on oracle
i don't know why you consider eul's core
i don't know why you made this guide when you scarcely seem to understand the hero
Try the build and then tell me how it worked or didn't work for you. Q is intentionally gotten at level 1 for first-blood opportunity. But I'll change it for Fate's Edict as the mana cost is low and good enough to use before bottle.
i don't know why you made this guide when you scarcely seem to understand the hero
Because I don't do something (or hold off doing something) based on the views or judgement of others, accurate or not.
Additionally, my competitors don't follow your own judgement and create guides for heroes they don't know either, the difference is; I willingly take feedback and accept criticism, even if openly telling me to not do something (though I don't heed it)
To add, the way the system works, those who release their guides first and collect enough ratings to get into the database, reap the most subscribers. I would rather have the majority of players subscribing to my work knowing I can change the build and will improve it with dedication than to intentionally delay publishing it under the disapproving perspective of others.
It's rude to dismiss my work on your perception that I don't know the hero when that is something that can easily be changed and, quite frankly, the easiest thing to improve and change. It also dismisses my hard work and dedication to not only rectify that, but to prepare aptly before the hero is released and the subsequent hours and perseverance in playing the hero and other forms of research/hands-on work
Lastly, not knowing a hero means I am more receptive to feedback and changes given my inexperience. I understand your disapproval, but find it more unconstructive and unaware of the full situation than warning and clairvoyant.
On November 22 2014 06:39 TheYango wrote:
I still don't think Mid Oracle needs Fate's Edict before level 8.
And don't go Eul's first, lol. If you don't want to go Mek first (and its kind of wrong not to, because this hero wants a Mek up and will probably get one faster than his teammates), Eul's isn't really the alternative.
I'm trying a more offensive Oracle right now and see how that pans out. Played about 10 games with Oracle offensive Mid yesterday and I'll do another 20 today (if I get around to it, I'm moving in less than a week).
I think you underestimate Fate's Edict. It really has too many situational value (3 major cases minimum) to deny its validity. Delaying it to level 8 is probably the best middle-ground but I really enjoy it during the laning phase given its low mana cost and level 1 strength (it's even helped me snag straggling kills with its 50% damage received amplification)
On November 23 2014 02:34 TheYango wrote:
I don't know how Blink got OFF the Carry Slardar item list, because last time we had this discussion, I thought it was pretty clear that Carry Slardar still absolutely needs Blink, it's just a matter of WHEN you buy it.
Done, I consolidated both builds into one.
On November 23 2014 02:37 Buckyman wrote:
Shiva's is a high impact Extension item. It means that Swap not only forces one of them out of position, but also applies an instant move speed debuff to their nearby teammates and puts any blink daggers on cooldown.
Mek and Pipe are simply too good not to have on a team, and position 4 Venge should build one of the two over Blink most of the time, if her teammates don't.
Venge is a terrible meka carrier in my opinion. I recall we had it on her and we argued that due to her swapping and now her buff when she dies, Meka is typically not good on her.
On November 23 2014 02:48 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Also, I'm not super-sold on Desolator being in VS's items at all; it's a good item on her if she's in a farming role but the rest of the guide is oriented towards a support role VS so desolator there doesn't really make sense.
I really like the debuff armour aura. I can remove it
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Oracle (Middle)
New Skill Build: W E Q E E R E Q Q Q R W W W
Removed Urn of Shadows
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
Created: "Core - Ganker" Tab
Moved Orchid of Malevolence to "Core - Ganker" Tab
Moved Dagon to "Core - Ganker" Tab
Oracle (Lane)
Added Courier/Wards to Starting Items
 Sladar
Removed: "Core - Carry" Tab
Moved Heart of Terrasque to Extension Items
Moved Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Moved Desolator to Extension Items
Moved Medallion of Courage to Situational Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Blink is moved to before Power Treads
Vengeful Spirit
Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
 Clinkz
Added Black King Bar to Core Items
Legion Commander (Jungle/Middle)
Legion Commander (Jungle/Middle)
Removed Assault Cuirass
Added Mjollnir to Extension Items
 Tidehunter
Removed Crimson Guard
Added Mekansm (back) to Situational Items
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http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=344520036 -- Looks like we have an admirer. A little bothersome to see it so similar in title, format and wording.
I am preparing to move to Denmark this coming week, so my PC will either be gone on Tuesday or Friday.
What do you guys think of a Jungle Sand King guide?
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Jungle Sand King only works well at level 3+. I'm worried that if you make a guide called "Sand King (Jungle), many users won't read the descriptions and try to clear a medium camp with just level 1 burrow strike when they really should be stacking while pressuring or pulling the safe lane.
Aside from that major issue, I think it's a good idea.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On November 23 2014 19:41 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 02:48 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Also, I'm not super-sold on Desolator being in VS's items at all; it's a good item on her if she's in a farming role but the rest of the guide is oriented towards a support role VS so desolator there doesn't really make sense. I really like the debuff armour aura. I can remove it
if you remove it from situational, you really should make a dual core guide for venge.
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On November 23 2014 23:10 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 19:41 Torte de Lini wrote:On November 23 2014 02:48 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Also, I'm not super-sold on Desolator being in VS's items at all; it's a good item on her if she's in a farming role but the rest of the guide is oriented towards a support role VS so desolator there doesn't really make sense. I really like the debuff armour aura. I can remove it if you remove it from situational, you really should make a dual core guide for venge.
It's in extension, not situational.
I think for Vengeful Spirit, I only want to promote roaming/support.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On November 23 2014 23:26 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 23:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On November 23 2014 19:41 Torte de Lini wrote:On November 23 2014 02:48 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Also, I'm not super-sold on Desolator being in VS's items at all; it's a good item on her if she's in a farming role but the rest of the guide is oriented towards a support role VS so desolator there doesn't really make sense. I really like the debuff armour aura. I can remove it if you remove it from situational, you really should make a dual core guide for venge. It's in extension, not situational. I think for Vengeful Spirit, I only want to promote roaming/support.
it's not? that is definitely a situational pickup..the situation being that you're playing as a semi-carry :D
e: i know what you're trying to promote, but she def can pick up some dmg dealing items and do well!
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United States47024 Posts
I mean, even if you make the DPS transition, Deso is pretty low on the list of items I'd get. AC/Diffusal/Yasha are much more practical buys (AC's pretty much always going to be better for -armor than Deso on a hero with such low attack range).
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SoCal8933 Posts
On November 24 2014 02:40 TheYango wrote:
I mean, even if you make the DPS transition, Deso is pretty low on the list of items I'd get. AC/Diffusal/Yasha are much more practical buys (AC's pretty much always going to be better for -armor than Deso on a hero with such low attack range).
without a doubt. if i'm playing semi-carry, yasha is usually my first pick up.
my point being, that if you remove it from the list of extension items, there is a place for it in a semi-carry build.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean, there are a ton of items that should be on that guide for a lot of reasons that are way more common buys than Deso under any circumstance. If you're not including them, Deso shouldn't be there either.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On November 24 2014 02:56 TheYango wrote:
I mean, there are a ton of items that should be on that guide for a lot of reasons that are way more common buys than Deso under any circumstance. If you're not including them, Deso shouldn't be there either.
all the more reason to push for a separate semi-carry or a dual core setup for the hero!
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On November 23 2014 19:41 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 02:37 Buckyman wrote:
Shiva's is a high impact Extension item. It means that Swap not only forces one of them out of position, but also applies an instant move speed debuff to their nearby teammates and puts any blink daggers on cooldown.
Mek and Pipe are simply too good not to have on a team, and position 4 Venge should build one of the two over Blink most of the time, if her teammates don't. Venge is a terrible meka carrier in my opinion. I recall we had it on her and we argued that due to her swapping and now her buff when she dies, Meka is typically not good on her.
So we did. But I don't think we talked about Pipe at all.
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I don't agree with dual-core for venge. Dual core builds make the guides much less approachable, and go against the entire concept of what these things are for.
There are a small number of heroes who absolutely need dual-cores because they are frequently played as both carry and support. Venge is not one of those. She is a support 90% of the time in pubs, and even if she's given farm she does okay rushing the utility stuff on the support guide.
Also, personally, I think mek should be situational on every support that doesn't need to rush blink. You simply can't rely on pub cores to get it, and your team usually still needs it even if your hero is a poor carrier.
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I can add items to Extension and remove Deso, Situational can have maybe 1 more.
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I absolutely love and adore your guides and guidesystem. Sorry to clogg the thread with praise, but they help me so. Will hopefully edit in something constructive soon enough! Keep it up, you make people happy.
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EPT
