EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 117
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 16 2014 07:00 Torte de Lini wrote: I don't think that's an assumption that is fair to make. It is because it's not really a good way to play him. It works if you have a very large item advantage and is fun to do in a game that you're utterly stomping, but for the purposes of learning the hero, there's absolutely no reason you should be teaching people to play it that way because that's not a serious way to play the hero. Anyone who can do well enough with the hero to get to a position where they can actually make it work is experienced enough at the hero that they don't need the help of a guide anymore. The carry transition for Oracle is actually a lot less natural than it is for something like QoP, Windrunner, or Lina, because while on paper his stats, BAT, and attack range make it seem "better" his lack of a practical AoE farming skill makes it hard for him to build the farm advantage that's actually necessary to make a carry Intel hero work. He basically has to kill his way there. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On November 16 2014 10:47 TheYango wrote: It is because it's not really a good way to play him. It works if you have a very large item advantage and is fun to do in a game that you're utterly stomping, but for the purposes of learning the hero, there's absolutely no reason you should be teaching people to play it that way because that's not a serious way to play the hero. Anyone who can do well enough with the hero to get to a position where they can actually make it work is experienced enough at the hero that they don't need the help of a guide anymore. The carry transition for Oracle is actually a lot less natural than it is for something like QoP, Windrunner, or Lina, because while on paper his stats, BAT, and attack range make it seem "better" his lack of a practical AoE farming skill makes it hard for him to build the farm advantage that's actually necessary to make a carry Intel hero work. He basically has to kill his way there. Any suggestion for extension items then? So is his carry potential a sort of late-game orientation rather than a full-on different way to play? Similar in comparison to QoP who isn't built but late in the game, she has the option to pick-up auto-attack damage carrying items? If so, I'll just add one or two of those items in extension slots and move Orchid of Malevolence to Situational Items. I assumed he was played entirely as a carry or entirely as a utility hero. edit: I moved Orchid of Malevolence to Situational Items, removed Ghost Scepter since we have Ethereal Blade as Extension Items, I don't think we're missing any other core items | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7086 Posts
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
I'd almost want to put PMS into core items, but it's fair enough where it is as you don't need it every game. The text about flame guard being a pseudo-BKB doesn't make as much sense as, say, a pseudo-radiance-shield-pipe-thing as it doesn't stop stuns, only magical damage. I only get two sticks at the start and don't always get magic wand, although I'd always get magic stick. That helps speed up the acquisition of other items. I don't know if you can put pooled tangos in the build but pooled tangos are a better option than a complete set of four tangos, as you can get the bottle faster. (tangoes or tangos, that is the question) I think drums should be a situational item not a core item, but as plenty of pros currently get it I don't really want to push it that hard. There's some discussion about it in the ember spirit thread. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On November 16 2014 15:25 Buckyman wrote: Tried troll mid guide. It didn't work. I felt like I had insufficient lane presence to make kills happen, not enough tank off either Yasha or Drums to jump into the middle of a fight, and if I avoided fights and farmed, my team just got run over before I finished my core. This is my problem too, I still can't play Troll at all and I've lost numerous games still trying. It's very frustrating On November 16 2014 15:38 TheYango wrote: Why does the Troll mid guide have QB Stout as starting items, lol. The Stout's fine, but there's like no reason to have the QB there from mid. I think I followed Paper's build for it, or someone from top 10 as he was consistently using the same three items to start. On November 16 2014 14:02 tehh4ck3r wrote: I'm imagining oracle as being played as a greedy 4 position hero (similar to lion or shadow shaman) that needs levels more than gold and just happens to scale fairly well into the lategame. it's also pretty likely IMO that his base attack time gets nerfed so a carry build would be pointless after that. best to just keep a support build I thought Blink Dagger would get nerfed, it didn't. I won't make a carry build, but feel someone else will and their guide will rise in popularity despite being way off. I fear of having an incomplete guide. I'd rather include it and have it removed than let someone take advantage. But it's not mentioned at all, so I haven't added it. In any case, I think Oracle is done. On November 16 2014 14:26 Birdie wrote: With regards to your Ember Spirit middle build, the skill progression should max chains before SoF. Also, I'd be inclined to put the fourth stat point in SoF because it helps a lot with gap closing and chains, although I don't do that every game so I'm not particularly fussed if you leave it where it is. Daedalus and a third BF should be in extension items, abyssal blade shouldn't be. Linkens shouldn't be in the build at all either, BKB is always going to be a better choice. I'd almost want to put PMS into core items, but it's fair enough where it is as you don't need it every game. The text about flame guard being a pseudo-BKB doesn't make as much sense as, say, a pseudo-radiance-shield-pipe-thing as it doesn't stop stuns, only magical damage. I only get two sticks at the start and don't always get magic wand, although I'd always get magic stick. That helps speed up the acquisition of other items. I don't know if you can put pooled tangos in the build but pooled tangos are a better option than a complete set of four tangos, as you can get the bottle faster. (tangoes or tangos, that is the question) I think drums should be a situational item not a core item, but as plenty of pros currently get it I don't really want to push it that hard. There's some discussion about it in the ember spirit thread. The SoF has come up before: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-guide-project-1-year-40m-subs?page=111#2209 Drums is also talked about. I'll fix Flame Guard. I'm not too keen about Linken's Sphere either. I feel Abyssal Blade still offers a truckload of damage that helps Ember Spirit out, but can also be utilized to keep enemy carries down, I wouldn't remove it necessarily. Pooling Tangos is definitely not the level of play this guide is targeting, in addition, it can't be visually shown anyways. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
 TimbersawMoved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items Added Blade Mail to Situational Items Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items Removed Power Treads Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items  InvokerAdded Urn of Shadows to Situational Items Removed Drums of Endurance Draft Guide Oracle (Lane) Skill Build: E W E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W (1. Purifying Flames 2. Fortune's End 3. Fate's Edict) Starting Items: Courier/Observer Wards 3x Iron Branches, Tangos, Clarity, Healing Salve Early Game: Boots of Speed, Magic Wand Core Items: Arcane Boots, Urn of Shadows, Mekansm, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Utility Items: Flying Courier, Observer Wards, Sentry Wards, Dust of Appearance, Smoke of Deceit, Gem of True Sight Situational Items: Bottle, Force Staff, Orchid of Malevolence, Dagon Extension Items: Ethereal Blade, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse Draft Guide Oracle (Middle) Skill Build: W E E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W (1. Purifying Flames 2. Fortune's End 3. Fate's Edict) Starting Items: 3x Iron Branches, Tangos, Early Game: Bottle, Boots of Speed, Magic Wand Core Items: Arcane Boots, Urn of Shadows, Mekansm, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Situational Items: Force Staff, Orchid of Malevolence, Dagon Extension Items: Ethereal Blade, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse Notes:
As a reminder, these heroes still need ratings and feedback, I unfortunately need to be more of a pest about it because they are difficult to attract attention: Kunkka (Middle) Build Weaver (Lane) Build Dragon Knight (Middle) Build Skywrath Mage (Lane) Build Tusk (Middle) Build Naga Siren (Middle) Build Elder Titan (Lane) Build Ursa (Lane) Build Nyx Assassin (Lane) Build Axe (Jungle) Build Ember Spirit (Middle) Build Lifestealer (Lane) Build Shadow Shaman (Middle) Build Earth Spirit (Middle) Build Troll Warlord (Middle) Build desperately needs ratings to be in the database Silencer (Middle) desperately needs ratings to be in the database | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/68Q1b5R.png)
As soon as I get feedback on the text and information (+ editing), it'll be released as a separate topic. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Seriously, QB on troll mid is bizarre. The only reason to do it is due to high base damage to make it harder for the enemy to deny, but high base damage means that well.. it's harder for the enemy to deny anyways. If you're talking top 10 players they're gonna know when they need a QB build (like, unless you're really bad at lasthitting you shouldn't need a QB vs zeus or techies). I feel like bottle is overkill on mid-silencer but I don't play it much. Or rather, not really overkill so much as his rune control is so garbage that even with the dual runes he shouldn't count on being able to get one without missing several waves of XP. His core of aghs refresher means you're probably better off with some weird items that build into it. Maybe a sobi mask or something. Why AC? I feel like i've missed something there. . Divine rapier description on kunkka makes no sense to me (break in case of icebergs?). Skill build i think people have already argued about. Weaver looks perfect aside from... maelstrom in core items. Leaves me feeling confused. DK mid probably wants the bottle rush item build and to take dragontail before level 4. (And if you put maelstrom on a hero you should put mjolnir as an extension somewhere on them) Might want to add OoV situational to tusk. I dunno. The hero is pretty straightforward item wise, blink could be added for blink saves on people but blink could be added to anyone this patch. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On November 17 2014 10:06 Nevuk wrote: Going through and rating those low level guides while I wait for my gf to finish homework, bored and nothing better to do. Seriously, QB on troll mid is bizarre. The only reason to do it is due to high base damage to make it harder for the enemy to deny, but high base damage means that well.. it's harder for the enemy to deny anyways. If you're talking top 10 players they're gonna know when they need a QB build (like, unless you're really bad at lasthitting you shouldn't need a QB vs zeus or techies). I feel like bottle is overkill on mid-silencer but I don't play it much. Or rather, not really overkill so much as his rune control is so garbage that even with the dual runes he shouldn't count on being able to get one without missing several waves of XP. His core of aghs refresher means you're probably better off with some weird items that build into it. Maybe a sobi mask or something. Why AC? I feel like i've missed something there. . Divine rapier description on kunkka makes no sense to me (break in case of icebergs?). Skill build i think people have already argued about. Weaver looks perfect aside from... maelstrom in core items. Leaves me feeling confused. DK mid probably wants the bottle rush item build and to take dragontail before level 4. (And if you put maelstrom on a hero you should put mjolnir as an extension somewhere on them) Might want to add OoV situational to tusk. I dunno. The hero is pretty straightforward item wise, blink could be added for blink saves on people but blink could be added to anyone this patch. 1. What do you suggest for starting items on Troll Warlord? It's still a hero I'm trying to personally improve because I can't win with him at all. 2. I've been very successful with Bottle Silencer and the overall item build. I think the pros of bottle certainly outweigh the cons and I would say it is used even in higher matches, though I could be corrected. Assault Cuirass to add to Silencer's Durability and Attack Speed, at that point of the game, you have your Int Damage, but not the attack speed. 3. Divine Rapier description is myself having fun. I will take another look at mid Kunkka as I recently played a few more games as Kunkka mid. Both builds have their merit, so it's really difficult to decide 4. Not sure what is confusing with Maelstrom on Weaver however. 5. I'll look at DK mid, but is that not rushing Bottle? Dragon Tail earlier than Level 4 doesn't make sense to me as it is seldom useful before 6 anyways. | ||
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7086 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2014 11:00 Torte de Lini wrote: 1. What do you suggest for starting items on Troll Warlord? It's still a hero I'm trying to personally improve because I can't win with him at all. Stout, branches, regen. QB Stout is a greedy start that works on safe lane with the expectation of supports babying you. In mid, you can't leverage a lane advantage with worse starting items. Troll mid's power comes from being able to win man-fights against most heroes at level 2-3, but if you have a stats/regen disadvantage, you're basically deliberately giving that up. There's no point in starting QB Stout on mid, even if it's situationally acceptable on sidelanes. On November 17 2014 11:00 Torte de Lini wrote: 2. I've been very successful with Bottle Silencer and the overall item build. I think the pros of bottle certainly outweigh the cons and I would say it is used even in higher matches, though I could be corrected. Assault Cuirass to add to Silencer's Durability and Attack Speed, at that point of the game, you have your Int Damage, but not the attack speed. Bottle is situational. Some lanes need it, some don't. You don't want to get it in the lanes that don't need it because delaying your first major item by 700 gold is a pretty big deal. On November 17 2014 11:00 Torte de Lini wrote: 5. I'll look at DK mid, but is that not rushing Bottle? Dragon Tail earlier than Level 4 doesn't make sense to me as it is seldom useful before 6 anyways. Dragon Tail at level 2 or 4 depends on your supports and whether they will come gank for you. The only situation where it's really useful excepting some massive outplay/misplay that results in a solo-kill is a gank. Bottle rush is 2-3 Branches + Tangos (self-bought or pooled depending on whether someone is willing to give them to you). You don't buy a Stout with a Bottle-rush start. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
The main problem is that weaver depends heavily on Linkens for his survivability, and he becomes way more effective once he can rat into the enemy side of the map. In most games, first-position weaver needs to get Linkens up asap because that's the point he starts to safely create pressure and shift the load off his team. Maelstrom is just strange because it's a farm accelerator which does nothing about his inherent survivability, so it really only makes sense if he's planning not to put himself in danger until he has 8k+ gold, which puts a ton of pressure on his team considering he's not a particularly hard carry. Plus, in situations where weaver wants to contribute with his early fighting potential instead, deso, crit and RoA/urn/medallion->?? are all better than maelstrom in fights. I can see how it might fill a niche where they aren't ganking you but you need to contribute to teamfights while farming, or where you get pushed out of lane and need to use maelstrom procs to catch up from the jungle, but both of those situations seem way too specific to be his standard progression. Personally I think Linkens->deso is still the gold standard for #1 weaver. Mid weaver could probably go treads/roa/medallion into deso/mael/BKB/crit as needed. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
TimbersawMoved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items Added Blade Mail to Situational Items Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items Removed Power Treads Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items InvokerAdded Urn of Shadows to Situational Items Removed Drums of Endurance Troll Warlord (Middle) Removed Quelling Blade Added 3x Iron Branches to Starting Items Dragon Knight (Middle) Removed Stout Shield Added Iron Branch to Starting Items Added Mjollnir to Extension Items  Weaver (Middle)Moved Maelstrom to Situational Items Draft Guide Oracle (Lane) Skill Build: E W E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W (1. Purifying Flames 2. Fortune's End 3. Fate's Edict) Starting Items: Courier/Observer Wards 3x Iron Branches, Tangos, Clarity, Healing Salve Early Game: Boots of Speed, Magic Wand Core Items: Arcane Boots, Urn of Shadows, Mekansm, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Utility Items: Flying Courier, Observer Wards, Sentry Wards, Dust of Appearance, Smoke of Deceit, Gem of True Sight Situational Items: Bottle, Force Staff, Orchid of Malevolence, Dagon Extension Items: Veil of Discord, Ethereal Blade, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse Draft Guide Oracle (Middle) Skill Build: W E E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W (1. Purifying Flames 2. Fortune's End 3. Fate's Edict) Starting Items: 3x Iron Branches, Tangos, Early Game: Bottle, Boots of Speed, Magic Wand Core Items: Arcane Boots, Urn of Shadows, Mekansm, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Situational Items: Force Staff, Orchid of Malevolence, Dagon Extension Items: Veil of Discord, Ethereal Blade, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse Notes:
As a reminder, these heroes still need ratings and feedback, I unfortunately need to be more of a pest about it because they are difficult to attract attention: Kunkka (Middle) Build Weaver (Lane) Build Dragon Knight (Middle) Build Skywrath Mage (Lane) Build Tusk (Middle) Build Naga Siren (Middle) Build Elder Titan (Lane) Build Ursa (Lane) Build Nyx Assassin (Lane) Build Axe (Jungle) Build Ember Spirit (Middle) Build Lifestealer (Lane) Build Shadow Shaman (Middle) Build Earth Spirit (Middle) Build Troll Warlord (Middle) Build desperately needs ratings to be in the database Silencer (Middle) desperately needs ratings to be in the database | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
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