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On October 31 2014 04:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2014 03:59 Torte de Lini wrote:
All I've been watching is (whichever has the most spectators) public games, checking Dotabuff for public matches and what the best Silencer players do.
In Pro games, one of the first two levels; they get Glaives. But in pub games, they skip it entirely every time (Out of the 7 players I chose and their most recent matches) Even in pub games I'm seeing like a 50/50 split at best for Glaives at 1/2, and definitely way higher for carry Silencer. This isn't meant to be some bullshit appeal to authority (which is why I hated bringing this up)--it's that I legitimately don't know what you're watching if you "haven't seen anyone" get early Glaives. Show nested quote +On October 31 2014 04:14 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: is bottle still good or is it not worth bc the increased cost AND since silencer has zero escape if being pursued going for a rune? Bottle on mid Silencer has always been situational. It's like Bottle on OD or Viper--you don't really want the Bottle because it's not hugely valuable for you to have one in the long run, but sometimes the lane just makes it more worth it to have it than to skip it.
No worries, I'm in really no position to make calls about Silencer since he is my few played heroes.
I like bottle on Silencer for the easy harassment spam :D!
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 Silencer (Lane)
New Skill Build: W E E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Last Word 2. Curse of the Silent 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Added Rod of Atos to Situational Items
Updated descriptions on all items (usually I don't include these in the patch notes anymore, but Silencer was heavily underwritten)
New Guide
Silencer (Middle)
New Skill Build: W E E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Last Word 2. Curse of the Silent 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Starting Items: 3x Iron Branch, Tangos
Early Game: Bottle, Boots of Speed
Core Items: Power Treads, Aghanim's Scepter, Refresher's Orb
Situational Items: Ghost Scepter, Force Staff, Rod of Atos, Black King Bar, Orchid of Malevolence
Extension Items: Assault Cuirass, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse
As a reminder, these heroes still need ratings and feedback, I unfortunately need to be more of a pest about it because they are difficult to attract attention:
Kunkka (Middle) Build
Weaver (Lane) Build
Dragon Knight (Middle) Build
Skywrath Mage (Lane) Build
Tusk (Middle) Build
Naga Siren (Middle) Build
Elder Titan (Lane) Build
Ursa (Lane) Build
Nyx Assassin (Lane) Build
Axe (Jungle) Build
Ember Spirit (Middle) Build
Lifestealer (Lane) Build
Shadow Shaman (Middle) Build
Earth Spirit (Middle) Build
Troll Warlord (Middle) Build
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United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2014 06:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
You always get one level of Glaives early, by level 3 at the absolute latest (I almost always get it at level 1). Anyone who doesn't is pretty much wrong.
My suggested build is W E E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W etc, both as carry and as support.
There's a potential argument for maxed double nukes before Glaives as support, but it requires some pretty specific lanes for you to not get enough value from the orb (i.e. the dynamic between your safe lane and their offlaner is such that you don't ever play the harassment game and the only way you threaten him is by killing him so you either want double nukes to straight up kill him when he comes to lane or he just ditches the lane and Glaives don't do anything for you).
In any situation where you're a person on lane actually laning against someone, Glaives are going to be good.
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I've seen double nukes straight up kill the other person in lane like 3+ times, but typically 1 in glaives is nice.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On October 31 2014 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
There's definitely a lot of e/q/e/q/e/r/e/q/q/w/w @11 as well (check page 2). sleight is a lot better once ur chains are maxed and e's ur best skill.
But whatever up to you.
ya i was advocating for maxing flame guard and chains before sleight a couple pages back for the mid guide..i like that build personally but i see why going 2-0-3-1 then deciding where to go from there is a strong way to play the hero is what im saying.
especially with drums, i feel like you get a lot of value out of just face rushing a support who is really out of position with your flame guard on and using chains when youre close. #justpubthings
i still highly disagree with the BFury description that you should get two before getting crits though.
On October 31 2014 06:16 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2014 04:33 TheYango wrote:On October 31 2014 04:14 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: is bottle still good or is it not worth bc the increased cost AND since silencer has zero escape if being pursued going for a rune? Bottle on mid Silencer has always been situational. It's like Bottle on OD or Viper--you don't really want the Bottle because it's not hugely valuable for you to have one in the long run, but sometimes the lane just makes it more worth it to have it than to skip it. I like bottle on Silencer for the easy harassment spam :D!
the one issue with telling pub stars to get bottle on this hero is that he has zero escape mechanism..thats why i was asking about what people thought about it. i like bottle too, but with the crow nerfs, he might do well to get a stick+treads instead of spending 700g on an item he may never get to use..youre guaranteed a charge simply by casting a spell.
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Australia6233 Posts
On October 31 2014 06:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
You always get one level of Glaives early, by level 3 at the absolute latest (I almost always get it at level 1). Anyone who doesn't is pretty much wrong.
My suggested build is W E E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W etc, both as carry and as support.
Honestly, "pretty much wrong" isn't true at all, to me. All silencer's early builds are highly situational. I agree that WEE is the safest and is fine for a cookie-cutter build, but early points in Q and skipping W can be far stronger in the right lanes.
Q is the spell that turns silencer from an annoying orb-walking support into a lane-crushing monster. W is generally nice but it's also pretty much a dead point after laning stage.
I don't even think W is essential in harass-based lanes. If it's safe to zone the old-fashioned way with aggressive positioning and rightclicks, the double nukes contribute a ton of damage and can push the offlaner completely out.
The way I see it:
WEE pressures contested lanes, contributes fine to kill attempts and is generally safe.
WQQ crushes lanes if they can't deal with Q
EQQ absolutely feeds on weak lanes
EQEQetc contributes the most damage to low-level kill attempts and skirmishes
I used to take W at level 1 almost all the time. These days, I'm always hoping to skip it.
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On October 31 2014 08:45 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2014 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
There's definitely a lot of e/q/e/q/e/r/e/q/q/w/w @11 as well (check page 2). sleight is a lot better once ur chains are maxed and e's ur best skill.
But whatever up to you. ya i was advocating for maxing flame guard and chains before sleight a couple pages back for the mid guide..i like that build personally but i see why going 2-0-3-1 then deciding where to go from there is a strong way to play the hero is what im saying. especially with drums, i feel like you get a lot of value out of just face rushing a support who is really out of position with your flame guard on and using chains when youre close. #justpubthings i still highly disagree with the BFury description that you should get two before getting crits though. Show nested quote +On October 31 2014 06:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 31 2014 04:33 TheYango wrote:On October 31 2014 04:14 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: is bottle still good or is it not worth bc the increased cost AND since silencer has zero escape if being pursued going for a rune? Bottle on mid Silencer has always been situational. It's like Bottle on OD or Viper--you don't really want the Bottle because it's not hugely valuable for you to have one in the long run, but sometimes the lane just makes it more worth it to have it than to skip it. I like bottle on Silencer for the easy harassment spam :D! the one issue with telling pub stars to get bottle on this hero is that he has zero escape mechanism..thats why i was asking about what people thought about it. i like bottle too, but with the crow nerfs, he might do well to get a stick+treads instead of spending 700g on an item he may never get to use..youre guaranteed a charge simply by casting a spell.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Lk0gF08.png)
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On October 31 2014 10:21 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2014 06:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
You always get one level of Glaives early, by level 3 at the absolute latest (I almost always get it at level 1). Anyone who doesn't is pretty much wrong.
My suggested build is W E E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W etc, both as carry and as support. Honestly, "pretty much wrong" isn't true at all, to me. All silencer's early builds are highly situational. I agree that WEE is the safest and is fine for a cookie-cutter build, but early points in Q and skipping W can be far stronger in the right lanes. Q is the spell that turns silencer from an annoying orb-walking support into a lane-crushing monster. W is generally nice but it's also pretty much a dead point after laning stage. I don't even think W is essential in harass-based lanes. If it's safe to zone the old-fashioned way with aggressive positioning and rightclicks, the double nukes contribute a ton of damage and can push the offlaner completely out. The way I see it: WEE pressures contested lanes, contributes fine to kill attempts and is generally safe. WQQ crushes lanes if they can't deal with Q EQQ absolutely feeds on weak lanes EQEQetc contributes the most damage to low-level kill attempts and skirmishes I used to take W at level 1 almost all the time. These days, I'm always hoping to skip it.
I think for Lane, an early point in W is good.
For Middle, I would prefer outright skipping it.
I think I might do that after playing some more games with Silencer.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
I'd argue that middle silencer requires that point in W even more than a sidelane support silencer.
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I felt it'd be the other way around. Middle is easier to harass and spam mana-intensive spells over lane where W is a bit more situationally versatile.
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SoCal8933 Posts
torte, in theory that info graph is all well and good..but getting cleaved like that is like the amount of times youre gonna get more than a 2 or 3 man RP, even in a pub.
you also need to consider that this damage is in no way guaranteed because it depends on the order and angle you hit a target at. 500 range is nothing and if you're playing in a bracket where people are aware of the fact theres an AOE hero in the game, they will naturally be more spread out anyway..just like with magnus, tide, etc.
I think as a general rule, relying on your opponent's mistakes is not a smart way to play any strategy game.
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On October 31 2014 22:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
I felt it'd be the other way around. Middle is easier to harass and spam mana-intensive spells over lane where W is a bit more situationally versatile.
thats simply not how it works 
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In mid you are harassing in the middle of the creepwave more often than in the sidelane, so a skill that allows you to not draw aggro would be even more important.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On November 01 2014 00:32 SKC wrote:
In mid you are harassing in the middle of the creepwave more often than in the sidelane, so a skill that allows you to not draw aggro would be even more important.
yeah, any time you don't have to worry about pulling the creep wave when you want to harass if you've got it in a nice spot is a good time. orb heroes win lanes for that reason (see: viper, huskar). ez CS.
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United States47024 Posts
Mid you're less likely to burst someone down with double nukes because its 1v1 and you won't get much effectiveness out of CotS spam because bottle limits the effect of mana denial.
Having a 2nd rank of CotS before 6 in mid is only useful against some specific heroes.
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On October 31 2014 21:47 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2014 08:45 BluemoonSC wrote:On October 31 2014 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
There's definitely a lot of e/q/e/q/e/r/e/q/q/w/w @11 as well (check page 2). sleight is a lot better once ur chains are maxed and e's ur best skill.
But whatever up to you. ya i was advocating for maxing flame guard and chains before sleight a couple pages back for the mid guide..i like that build personally but i see why going 2-0-3-1 then deciding where to go from there is a strong way to play the hero is what im saying. especially with drums, i feel like you get a lot of value out of just face rushing a support who is really out of position with your flame guard on and using chains when youre close. #justpubthings i still highly disagree with the BFury description that you should get two before getting crits though. On October 31 2014 06:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 31 2014 04:33 TheYango wrote:On October 31 2014 04:14 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: is bottle still good or is it not worth bc the increased cost AND since silencer has zero escape if being pursued going for a rune? Bottle on mid Silencer has always been situational. It's like Bottle on OD or Viper--you don't really want the Bottle because it's not hugely valuable for you to have one in the long run, but sometimes the lane just makes it more worth it to have it than to skip it. I like bottle on Silencer for the easy harassment spam :D! the one issue with telling pub stars to get bottle on this hero is that he has zero escape mechanism..thats why i was asking about what people thought about it. i like bottle too, but with the crow nerfs, he might do well to get a stick+treads instead of spending 700g on an item he may never get to use..youre guaranteed a charge simply by casting a spell.
This is the most overrated picture ever. IIRC there's some calculation error in it somewhere (can't remember where), but simply it makes the assumption that you will be cleaving every SoF. That's not true, and why crit is preffered - its much more reliable damage.
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That's simply what I used as a source.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On November 01 2014 01:49 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2014 21:47 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 31 2014 08:45 BluemoonSC wrote:On October 31 2014 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
There's definitely a lot of e/q/e/q/e/r/e/q/q/w/w @11 as well (check page 2). sleight is a lot better once ur chains are maxed and e's ur best skill.
But whatever up to you. ya i was advocating for maxing flame guard and chains before sleight a couple pages back for the mid guide..i like that build personally but i see why going 2-0-3-1 then deciding where to go from there is a strong way to play the hero is what im saying. especially with drums, i feel like you get a lot of value out of just face rushing a support who is really out of position with your flame guard on and using chains when youre close. #justpubthings i still highly disagree with the BFury description that you should get two before getting crits though. On October 31 2014 06:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 31 2014 04:33 TheYango wrote:On October 31 2014 04:14 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: is bottle still good or is it not worth bc the increased cost AND since silencer has zero escape if being pursued going for a rune? Bottle on mid Silencer has always been situational. It's like Bottle on OD or Viper--you don't really want the Bottle because it's not hugely valuable for you to have one in the long run, but sometimes the lane just makes it more worth it to have it than to skip it. I like bottle on Silencer for the easy harassment spam :D! the one issue with telling pub stars to get bottle on this hero is that he has zero escape mechanism..thats why i was asking about what people thought about it. i like bottle too, but with the crow nerfs, he might do well to get a stick+treads instead of spending 700g on an item he may never get to use..youre guaranteed a charge simply by casting a spell. This is the most overrated picture ever. IIRC there's some calculation error in it somewhere (can't remember where), but simply it makes the assumption that you will be cleaving every SoF. That's not true, and why crit is preffered - its much more reliable damage.
my thoughts exactly. im sure double battlefury works in some circumstances (like maybe a mass summons lineup), but I don't think you'll ever go wrong going bfury -> crit in many circumstances.
plus im looking at this diagram and seeing "percent chance to cleave" - where did those numbers even come from? more importantly, like we both said, its not as reliable as a crit.
On November 01 2014 02:11 Torte de Lini wrote:
That's simply what I used as a source.
dude, you do so much for every single hero guide. I don't blame you for using information presented to you, that's why this thread is here: to discuss away and figure out what's best!
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United States47024 Posts
Percent chance to cleave comes from the fact that the angle at which Ember attacks his Sleight targets is random, so two people right next to each other might not get cleaved if Ember appears between them when he attacks one of them with Sleight.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
I mix going double bfury first or bfury -> daedalus depending on the game and how likely they are to clump together. I don't know what I'd present as a cookie cutter.
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EPT
