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On October 31 2014 00:22 BluemoonSC wrote:
I think middle silencer is the way to go instead of dual core.
to the split-guide point...perhaps its time to condense guides into "carry" vs "support" as opposed to "lane" vs "middle" so that you don't wind up with support items under situational, for instance?
I don't think that splitting off a guide into two branches, one with a different playstyle than the other is confusing. as yango pointed out, the distinction isn't meaningful, however I do think that options should be presented for players looking to learn a hero - which should the be the goal of a guide to playing a hero.
if someone isn't reading the descriptions and does something wrong, is it your fault as the guide maker or the readers fault for...not reading?
I will take another look at the current "Dual-Core" Guides I have. For most guides, I keep them separate (Leshrac Middle is Carry, Leshrac Lane is Support).
I think Sniper is an example of similar builds that both work and are stylistic.
Clockwerk is also an example I find worth keeping.
For many "Dual-Cores", I find them not necessarily bad, but I can see how we're starting to overflow a bit in terms of information in one guide. I was thinking of transitioning to Carry/Ganker, etc. but it would either double my plate both in the transition and in creating new guides (also the amount of promotion needed for them would be brutal) but also progress further away from players who are new to the hero -> to players who are new to certain ways to play a hero and I'd like to keep it at least remotely elementary.
Here's another example: Doom (Jungle)
I think cases where want to incorporate the idea of a faster Aghanim's Scepter build (Facelss Void, Silencer), a dual-core build is not necessarily a bad idea.
Example: Enchantress
Juggernaut
Radiance Core build: Naga Siren (Lane/Middle)
Conclusion is that we'll keep the current "Dual-Core" Builds we have but hold off on trying to expand future guides. Silencer Middle will be made for a "Carry Silencer" view (similar to Leshrac Middle)
I'm a little iffy about Doom Jungle Dual-Core and Sniper Dual-Core now haha
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 Silencer (Lane)
New Skill Build: E Q E Q E R E Q Q W R W W W R (1. Last Word 2. Curse of the Silent 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Added Rod of Atos to Situational Items
Updated descriptions on all items (usually I don't include these in the patch notes anymore, but Silencer was heavily underwritten)
New Guide
Silencer (Middle)
New Skill Build: E Q E Q E R E Q Q W R W W W R (1. Last Word 2. Curse of the Silent 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Starting Items: 3x Iron Branch, Tangos
Early Game: Bottle, Boots of Speed
Core Items: Power Treads, Aghanim's Scepter, Refresher's Orb
Situational Items: Ghost Scepter, Force Staff, Rod of Atos, Black King Bar, Orchid of Malevolence
Extension Items: Assault Cuirass, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse
As a reminder, these heroes still need ratings and feedback, I unfortunately need to be more of a pest about it because they are difficult to attract attention:
Kunkka (Middle) Build
Weaver (Lane) Build
Dragon Knight (Middle) Build
Skywrath Mage (Lane) Build
Tusk (Middle) Build
Naga Siren (Middle) Build
Elder Titan (Lane) Build
Ursa (Lane) Build
Nyx Assassin (Lane) Build
Axe (Jungle) Build
Ember Spirit (Middle) Build
Lifestealer (Lane) Build
Shadow Shaman (Middle) Build
Earth Spirit (Middle) Build
Troll Warlord (Middle) Build
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
Why are you getting a point in Curse at level 1? I disagree with that since Q is highly useless unless you actually level it up (at level 1 it's better to ignore it than cast a spell) and it's simply not as powerful as Glaives, which allows you to harass without taking creep aggro, or Last Word for the reliable silence and damage.
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SoCal8933 Posts
I think one of the biggest drawbacks of writing guides is how valve has them implemented. they require voting in order to be visible on top of the fact that they are only organized by hero and I think they could do a better job, here.
I think ideally, you would want a player to go into the guide library and select their hero they want to view guides for. Then the guide itself would have tabs which allow the player to select their position and/or role.
As a result, you have to either condense the guides in order to be seen or put out 4 guides for one hero covering the possible roles. I think valve would do everyone a great service by changing how they work the system.
PS: been seeing a lot of pros go Ember spirit 2-1-4-1 then max w. I redact my earlier point about drums and skipping sleight and why that's not necessarily best.
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On October 31 2014 02:56 Firebolt145 wrote:
Why are you getting a point in Curse at level 1? I disagree with that since Q is highly useless unless you actually level it up (at level 1 it's better to ignore it than cast a spell) and it's simply not as powerful as Glaives, which allows you to harass without taking creep aggro, or Last Word for the reliable silence and damage.
That's a typo.
The new build is E Q E Q E R E Q Q.
Sorry, I fixed it. The build written in this post is what's actually in the guide(s).
On October 31 2014 02:58 BluemoonSC wrote:
I think one of the biggest drawbacks of writing guides is how valve has them implemented. they require voting in order to be visible on top of the fact that they are only organized by hero and I think they could do a better job, here.
I think ideally, you would want a player to go into the guide library and select their hero they want to view guides for. Then the guide itself would have tabs which allow the player to select their position and/or role.
As a result, you have to either condense the guides in order to be seen or put out 4 guides for one hero covering the possible roles. I think valve would do everyone a great service by changing how they work the system.
PS: been seeing a lot of pros go Ember spirit 2-1-4-1 then max w. I redact my earlier point about drums and skipping sleight and why that's not necessarily best.
Yes. Agreed. There's also no decay in votes. Guides that have never been updated still sit at a solid 90, so people have to proactively downvote someone over the frequency/effectiveness of newer votes than older votes. It's very frustrating and weakens competition.
It would be nice to see guides during the loading screen or simply add a few more options/visibility for guides in the game. There are a lot of ideas I want to implement.
I'll have to play Ember again, but are you seeing in this in pro games or at higher pub games level? I'll take a look more.
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Guide Subscription Total: 42,321,571 -- Full stats on the front page, preparing a full analysis of the full year within the week or two.
- Growth of Subscribers still manages to stay at 2 million growth since August 3rd.
- Growth Rate Percentage hits all-time low at 5.02% -- Lowest since the guide project back in 2013.
- 11.42% of last month's unique players [9,623,148] are subscribed to the Lifestealer (Jungle) Guide
- Slow rise for most recent guides (100k and below), 300k bracket and up rise at a very rapid pace.
- Top 7 guides are approx. 600k subscribers or higher each (up to 1 million in a guide)
- Top 22 guides are approx. 500k subscribers or higher each (up to 1 million in a guide)
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- Top 113 guides are approx. 100k subscribers or higher each
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United States47024 Posts
Why are you maxing Glaives?
Skill priority shoould be Word>Curse>Glaives with Glaives at 1 regardless.
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On October 31 2014 03:28 TheYango wrote:
Why are you maxing Glaives?
Skill priority shoould be Word>Curse>Glaives with Glaives at 1 regardless.
Oops.
It's actually E Q E Q E lol
My head is all over the place.
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United States47024 Posts
You mean WEEQ?
Again, you still get rank 1 Glaives.
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No, I don't get a point in W. I haven't seen anyone build it either.
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a point in w is how you win mid via orb harass and also helps you cs sometimes (obviously don't jsut leave it on)
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United States47024 Posts
While I hate citing this, Silencer has a point in Glaives by level 2 ~2/3 of the time in pro games (probably less as support and more often as carry). I don't know what the fuck you're watching if you've never seen early Glaives in lane.
Skipping Glaives is situationally fine but Glaives at 1 or 2 is definitely the norm and not the exception.
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On October 31 2014 03:46 TheYango wrote:
While I hate citing this, Silencer has a point in Glaives by level 2 ~2/3 of the time in pro games (probably less as support and more often as carry). I don't know what the fuck you're watching if you've never seen early Glaives in lane.
Skipping Glaives is situationally fine but Glaives at 1 or 2 is definitely the norm and not the exception.
All I've been watching is (whichever has the most spectators) public games, checking Dotabuff for public matches and what the best Silencer players do.
In Pro games, one of the first two levels; they get Glaives. But in pub games, they skip it entirely every time (Out of the 7 players I chose and their most recent matches)
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SoCal8933 Posts
a great reference tool is datdota.com if you want to see what the pro meta looks like for hero builds. I get that pro =/= pub, but they have a somewhat better insight on what works and what doesn't.
as for why pub players skip glaives, I personally do it when I know im hard support and want to save my mana for other spells. however, mid, silencer should get one point into the glaives for the reasons stated above. its just a great value point to help you last hit and harass freely.
EDIT: is bottle still good or is it not worth bc the increased cost AND since silencer has zero escape if being pursued going for a rune?
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United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2014 03:59 Torte de Lini wrote:
All I've been watching is (whichever has the most spectators) public games, checking Dotabuff for public matches and what the best Silencer players do.
In Pro games, one of the first two levels; they get Glaives. But in pub games, they skip it entirely every time (Out of the 7 players I chose and their most recent matches)
Even in pub games I'm seeing like a 50/50 split at best for Glaives at 1/2, and definitely way higher for carry Silencer.
This isn't meant to be some bullshit appeal to authority (which is why I hated bringing this up)--it's that I legitimately don't know what you're watching if you "haven't seen anyone" get early Glaives.
On October 31 2014 04:14 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: is bottle still good or is it not worth bc the increased cost AND since silencer has zero escape if being pursued going for a rune?
Bottle on mid Silencer has always been situational. It's like Bottle on OD or Viper--you don't really want the Bottle because it's not hugely valuable for you to have one in the long run, but sometimes the lane just makes it more worth it to have it than to skip it.
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United States47024 Posts
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SoCal8933 Posts
torte, here are the most popular ember spirit builds in 6.82
as i mentioned, the majority of players are opting for some sort of 2-1-4-1 build into max sleight.
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There's definitely a lot of e/q/e/q/e/r/e/q/q/w/w @11 as well (check page 2). sleight is a lot better once ur chains are maxed and e's ur best skill.
But whatever up to you.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
You always get one level of Glaives early, by level 3 at the absolute latest (I almost always get it at level 1). Anyone who doesn't is pretty much wrong.
My suggested build is W E E Q E R E Q Q Q R W W W etc, both as carry and as support.
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EPT
