EPTDoing an "Aghs" Core build is straight-forward, but the right-click is also situational, though it's difficult to convey what you need to do to be right-click good in a guide.
Stats coming in tomorrow.
In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 112
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Doing an "Aghs" Core build is straight-forward, but the right-click is also situational, though it's difficult to convey what you need to do to be right-click good in a guide. Stats coming in tomorrow. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 30 2014 00:38 Sn0_Man wrote: Carry silencer IS aghs refresher bkb hex shivas travels 6slot, in roughly that order. Carry Silencer doesn't need BKB except in some very specific situations, and certainly not after Agha+Refresher if you do (why do you need magic immunity when the entire enemy team CAN'T CAST SPELLS). Shiva vs. AC is game dependent. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
 I suppose its much much less core than on certain other heroes but global has a fair animation and you can't always get it off before the enemy initiators can disable you unless you have bkb. yeah i thought about AC but refresher makes shivas pretty nuts in fights. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 30 2014 01:35 Sn0_Man wrote: I suppose its much much less core than on certain other heroes but global has a fair animation and you can't always get it off before the enemy initiators can disable you unless you have bkb. It has infinite range. If you get caught like that, it's a positioning problem, not an itemization problem. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On October 30 2014 01:35 Sn0_Man wrote: hexes, orchids, once global wears off, when global's on CD, etc I suppose its much much less core than on certain other heroes but global has a fair animation and you can't always get it off before the enemy initiators can disable you unless you have bkb. yeah i thought about AC but refresher makes shivas pretty nuts in fights. agree on your thoughts on BKB for silencer..his biggest problem late is getting caught with good initiation and being unable to use silence because they got the jump..bkb or linkens (for someone like batrider) is good for your survivability. not sure about how I feel about saying "you can only use aghs refresher if you're carry silencer." I think that situationally, you might go orchid, refresher maybe if you are "right click". but I would say that shivas VS ac is dependent on whether or not you have a better AC carrier. tough call to make. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Core Items: Treads -> Mekansm -> Force Staff Core Items - Carry: Treads -> Aghs -> Refresher Situational: BKB, Orchid, Atos, Ghost Scepter Extension: AC, Shiva's, Scythe of Vyse I always assumed Orchid was a part of Carry Silencer. Despite being redundant, it amplifies the cast damage, great attack speed, etc. I was hoping to put that in Core Items - Carry tab. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
If you're going to go right-click damage and not Agha+Refresher, then you're going to go something like Treads+Mek->AC/Sheep in some order, with Refresher or Heart as your last few items. AC takes priority over Shiva because at that point in the game, attack speed is in higher demand for you than more Intelligence because the only way a right-click focused carry Silencer will win at that point is by having a lot of free Int from kills. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Maybe do a Middle Silencer as well. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Rayeth
United States883 Posts
Orchid is totally situational. Much better on the supporting version of the hero than the carry IMO. As a carry, the hero really needs to have stolen INT from laning kills or ganks to make the item work, and as a rule you can't count on that stuff. As a support, you want to get it since adding another source of single target damage to supplement your ult is invaluable (plus it gives you some use while the ult is on CD). Still a good item on the carry build sometimes but not all the time, pretty much defines situational. | ||
Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
My understanding was that the whole point of these guides is to give a walkthrough to people who aren't able to think for themselves. If you give tab options to players who can't think for themselves, you will just create a ton of situations where they build totally retarded items because "they're in the guide!". You're also letting people talk you into complex alternatives that are way outside the scope of the guide. The void split, for example, is particularly confusing because both branches have similar goals, and choosing between them takes more finesse than your clientele are ever going to have. Even for silencer, aghs+refresh vs. rightclick is so situational. Yes, there are clear cases where you want one or the other, but there is absolutely no way the people reading your guides will be able to identify those cases. If you give them both, they will just take a horrible mishmash of the two. If you give them both in a guide which also contains support items, i don't even know what will happen. Putting carry vs. support in tabs makes even less sense, to me. The difference between carry and support is far greater than the difference between "lane" and "middle" (which I always thought was weird to begin with, tbh). If you're going to start adding carry/support builds for heroes that can do both, I really think you should split them into completely different guides. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On October 30 2014 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote: Here's what I'm thinking: Core Items: Treads -> Mekansm -> Force Staff Core Items - Carry: Treads -> Aghs -> Refresher Situational: BKB, Orchid, Atos, Ghost Scepter Extension: AC, Shiva's, Scythe of Vyse I always assumed Orchid was a part of Carry Silencer. Despite being redundant, it amplifies the cast damage, great attack speed, etc. I was hoping to put that in Core Items - Carry tab. i would add linkens to situational if you're going to list bkb on there. the whole purpose of including bkb despite having global is if you get initiated on and dont have enough time to react and cast silence. linkens has the same purpose for heroes like batrider, bane, etc. as for the reason orchid is good is so that you can silence someone without blowing your long cooldown to see the effects of your nuke (last word). before BKB's come out, you're guaranteed to disarm someone with strong right click when it pops as well as amplifying dmg done to the hero. the one down side is that it does not solve his health issue..which can be quite an issue. yango, no one is saying that aghs/refresher is a bad carry build. we are just offering other builds that people can opt for instead that are still viable. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Even if you aren't going Agha first, you'd go Meka not Orchid usually. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On October 30 2014 07:44 Belisarius wrote: Torte, if I'm honest, I think you're getting Microsoft syndrome here. You have something that works, and by all accounts it's popular and effective. You're now starting to bloat it with unnecessary and confusing features. My understanding was that the whole point of these guides is to give a walkthrough to people who aren't able to think for themselves. If you give tab options to players who can't think for themselves, you will just create a ton of situations where they build totally retarded items because "they're in the guide!". You're also letting people talk you into complex alternatives that are way outside the scope of the guide. The void split, for example, is particularly confusing because both branches have similar goals, and choosing between them takes more finesse than your clientele are ever going to have. Even for silencer, aghs+refresh vs. rightclick is so situational. Yes, there are clear cases where you want one or the other, but there is absolutely no way the people reading your guides will be able to identify those cases. If you give them both, they will just take a horrible mishmash of the two. If you give them both in a guide which also contains support items, i don't even know what will happen. Putting carry vs. support in tabs makes even less sense, to me. The difference between carry and support is far greater than the difference between "lane" and "middle" (which I always thought was weird to begin with, tbh). If you're going to start adding carry/support builds for heroes that can do both, I really think you should split them into completely different guides. I think you pose a very strong concern, but also don't see the value of these dual separate builds. For many heroes, there are several ways to play them and their situational items start to stack up. These "dual-mode" cores achieve two things: they alleviate the amount of situational items I need to stuff (so it isn't overwhelming) and 2. it adds dimension for someone who is introduced to the hero (so they understand that the hero can be played several ways). The issue with stacks of situational items is that not everyone reads the descriptions that I write out and often times: several situational items should be bought if they are bought together (see TA build). Even then, it's under different circumstances. For heroes like Phantom Assassin, I need to remove her "early-game" fighting build as it is no longer relevant/good. But for someone like Silencer where there is some versatility, I can split him into two separate modes depending how the game is going and how the player playing is doing. If I do a separate build, it is either overlooked or simply overlapping. Creating another core tab (so a hero will only have, typically, two "core" tabs that must be vastly different and follow the same skill build): instructs users the order to buy items and alleviates the confusion of putting them all in a situational tab (where they're all mixed and without timing indicators). What do you think? I'll reconsider doing it for some heroes (as I said, I'm removing Phantom Assassin's "Early-Game Core"), but I think Silencer would benefit from this no? Oh, I should add that I do "Mid" guides also for heroes I want to differentiate playing, but it causes a lot of lop-sidedness in terms of support and subscription. An example was the Tiny Build. For middle, I had the outdated "Ganker" and for Lane: I had the Carry version. The Lane version, even though it was published in July of 2013, got 600,000 subscriptions over the Middle version, published from the get-go (February 2013) who is approx. 50,000 subscriptions (and that's thanks to making it a "dual-core" guide) That said, you might be right for Silencer. I just personally don't feel his current build is very optimal or even preferred at lower levels (I almost never see it). I might just do a Middle version of Silencer where he gets fast levels to ganks and then takes advantage of that to tear down towers or gain fast int stat. I usually see a very offensive build: Aghs, Refresher, Phase Boots, Sheepstick, Shivas, Orchid, etc. Do you guys think we should have a "Middle Silencer" guide or a "Dual-Core" Lane Silencer guide? | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items Removed Necromonicon Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Core Items (Eul's before Aghs).  Doom (Jungle)Removed Boots of Speed  EnchantressAdded Black King Bar to Situational Items Removed Boots of Speed Earth Spirit (Middle) Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Force Staff to Core Items (after Aghs) Removed Heaven's Halberd Earth Spirit (Lane) New Skill Build: W Q E Q E R E E Q Q R W W W (1. Geomagnetic Grip 2. Rolling Boulder 3. Boulder Smash) Moved Bottle to Early Game Added Urn of Shadows to Core Items Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items  Axe (Lane/Jungle) Axe (Lane/Jungle)Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items (Lane) Troll Warlord (Lane) New Build Skill Build: Q W W E W R W Q Q Q R E E E (1. Whirling Axes 2. Berseker's Rage 3. Fervor) Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tangos, Healing Salve, 2x Iron Branch Early Game: Ring of Aquila, Boots of Speed, Magic Wand Core Items: Phase Boots, Drums of Endurance, Yasha, Sange & Yasha, Black King Bar Situational Items: Vladmir's Offering, Heaven's Halberd, Monkey King Bar Extension Items: Satanic, Daedalus, Butterfly  Phantom AssassinRemoved Phase Boots Added Power Treads to Core - Farming Carry Removed "Core - Early Carry" Moved Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items  Ursa (Lane/Jungle) Ursa (Lane/Jungle)Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items Elder Titan (Middle) Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items Added Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items New Guide Troll Warlord (Middle) Skill Build: Q W W E W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Whirling Axes 2. Berserker's Rage 3. Fervor) Starting Items: Tangos, Quelling Blade, Stout Shield Early Game: Bottle, Boots of Speed Core Items: Phase Boots, Drums of Endurance, Yasha, Sange & Yasha, Black King Bar Situational Items: Vladmir's Offering, Heaven's Halberd, Monkey King Bar Extension Items: Satanic, Daedalus, Butterfly As a reminder, these heroes still need ratings and feedback, I unfortunately need to be more of a pest about it because they are difficult to attract attention: Kunkka (Middle) Build Weaver (Lane) Build Dragon Knight (Middle) Build Skywrath Mage (Lane) Build Tusk (Middle) Build Naga Siren (Middle) Build Elder Titan (Lane) Build Ursa (Lane) Build Nyx Assassin (Lane) Build Axe (Jungle) Build Ember Spirit (Middle) Build Lifestealer (Lane) Build Shadow Shaman (Middle) Build Earth Spirit (Middle) Build | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 30 2014 08:54 Torte de Lini wrote: I think you pose a very strong concern, but also don't see the value of these dual separate builds. For many heroes, there are several ways to play them and their situational items start to stack up. These "dual-mode" cores achieve two things: they alleviate the amount of situational items I need to stuff (so it isn't overwhelming) and 2. it adds dimension for someone who is introduced to the hero (so they understand that the hero can be played several ways). The issue with stacks of situational items is that not everyone reads the descriptions that I write out and often times: several situational items should be bought if they are bought together (see TA build). Even then, it's under different circumstances. If a player hasn't realized that this is true of every hero in the game and that all hero item choices are situational at every phase of the game, then the distinction isn't meaningful because they won't have the understanding necessary to make the choice. Just keep it simple. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I think I'll create a Middle Silencer and have it be more offensive (Treads/Aghs/Refresher). | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
to the split-guide point...perhaps its time to condense guides into "carry" vs "support" as opposed to "lane" vs "middle" so that you don't wind up with support items under situational, for instance? I don't think that splitting off a guide into two branches, one with a different playstyle than the other is confusing. as yango pointed out, the distinction isn't meaningful, however I do think that options should be presented for players looking to learn a hero - which should the be the goal of a guide to playing a hero. if someone isn't reading the descriptions and does something wrong, is it your fault as the guide maker or the readers fault for...not reading? | ||
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