EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 110
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On October 17 2014 01:17 Laserist wrote: ^ I think I disagree all of your points. MOM can be easily build on safe lane voids to let him participate fights very early(level 6-8), increase farming speed in jungle. Can be still proves its value in mid game where you land good chronos which prevent intervention from the opposition. MoM can always be built on safelane Void. It's a very good item for the reasons you listed, plus giving you actual chase-down potential without Time Walk. I don't like it being core for 4 reasons. A) Its primary advantage in the early game falls off a cliff once BKBs are out. B) Because of that issue, it locks your item progression into a very predictable path. C) While the damage amplification gradually outstrips the benefit of the IAS increase, you usually don't have the option to dump it until you are truly 6-slotted. D) It became popular among offlane Voids because MoM + Maelstrom is an extremely cheap combo for its DPS and the parts for MoM are affordable for that role. Meanwhile safelane Void usually has access to secure farm so he can be more selective about his first major item. You can get similar jungling results with RoA + Maelstrom and maximize potential with the Newbee build (PMS + Aquila + MoM + Maelstrom). MoM's main advantage is that you can take ancient stacks and maintain full HP. I don't see that being a forceful argument in its favor though. On October 17 2014 01:17 Laserist wrote: Time lock is very very valuable skill and remains strong until late-game scenarios where you farm more than the worth of MOM with the help of MOM itself anyways. Tower gold and chrono nerfs didn't reduce the effectiveness of mom since you at most have 100-200 least gold more because of tower nerfs and 0.5 seconds less chrono can be ignored by the help of supports. Level 4 Time Lock is strong throughout the game, but the emphasis slowly shifts from damage to stun once HP pools get large and BKBs come online. That creates the second problem: when enemy cores get BKB, you only have base damage (Void has mediocre AGI gain for a AGI carry) + 48 from BKB and Maelstrom. Post-BKB, your main choice will be Daedalus. And since players want to build on MoM's strengths, you will go MoM -> Maelstrom -> BKB -> Crit 90% of the time. I wasn't talking about the bug fix. That needed to happen. The nerfs to tower gold and buffs to tower defense were pretty big. The strength of MoM/Maelstrom is seizing map control with kills and using that advantage to leap ahead in items. His offlane efficiency in 6.81 was lukewarm for that reason. Back then, offlane Void was a boom-or-bust hero. Those are offset by his rising value in the metagame. 6.82 weakened the three primary strategies you used to use to beat him: lane dominance into tower push, 5-man team fight into tower push, and straight tower push. With the nerfs to TB and Naga, lategame illusion split-push is also being discouraged. Then there are the gold tweaks that push players to pick lategame carries and hurt natural snowballing heroes like NS, Doom almost disappearing overnight, more total buffs to heroes that work well with Void than nerfs, blah blah blah. The heroes that traditionally work well against him are not powerful team fighters either, so counterpicking Void isn't popular or attempted. The best attempts I've seen so far are last pick PAs and some weird laning setups to pressure the safe lane. On October 17 2014 01:17 Laserist wrote: Since the last 6.82c nerf chrono even more, aghs would be a very valuable choice. Aghs still has the same problem as before. It's an item that earns its value over time, so you want to purchase it as quickly as possible; in the lategame, RFO/Satanic are better for their respective purposes. At the same time, you sacrifice farming speed and your DPS in the midgame unless you go MoM first; if you go MoM first, Problem A becomes completely debilitating past a certain point. You will solely rely on your team for the damage to kill targets, which severely restricts the hero pool for your draft. It largely defeats the purpose of drafting him in the offlane as well. On October 17 2014 01:17 Laserist wrote: Worst case you can sell Mom to have a better orb/AS in later stages of the game when the item drops off. That would be the late-lategame. There are only two items with orbs you would purchase in that situation (Satanic and maybe Skadi) and neither replaces MoM's IAS. You'd have to compensate for that before replacing it, which would cost ~6000 gold depending on whether you get BFly or Mjollnir. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
you're in a pub and guide users tend to need it because they are not well-versed with the hero if you're using a guide, it's probably because you don't know how to play the hero. that means that you probably won't understand when to get what item, so as the creator of a guide, you need to make it as simple as possible for the reader so that they can play their hero effectively. Mask of Madness does just that for void. It allows you to farm with the lifesteal orb and it allows you to take advantage of the IAS to proc more timelocks in chrono before big items. this discussion belongs in the faceless void strategy thread, where you can debate itemization. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
MoM is a better "cookie-cutter" item for a generic item because it's good on its own while pairing comfortably with all the others while Maelstrom is a bit uncomfortable to have naked and needs to be paired to be good (e.g. Mael+Treads is kind of awkward while Mael+MoM or Mael+Midas are smooth; MoM+Treads is impactful by itself, and is complemented well by any of the possible follow-ups). Ultimately the problem is that again, this is a part of Void's itemization that NEEDS to be fluid, so trying to assign a cookie-cutter choice is trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. B) Because of that issue, it locks your item progression into a very predictable path. It's actually the opposite. MoM has a lot MORE follow-up items that give it divergent power timings/strengths while Mael is a lot more restrictive due to how Mael on it's own is actually fairly unimpactful and needs to either be upgraded or paired with a secondary DPS item to really be strong. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On October 17 2014 04:06 BluemoonSC wrote: here's the thing you need to remember when you say that you don't like an item being core when looking at a guide built for pubs. you're in a pub and guide users tend to need it because they are not well-versed with the hero if you're using a guide, it's probably because you don't know how to play the hero. that means that you probably won't understand when to get what item, so as the creator of a guide, you need to make it as simple as possible for the reader so that they can play their hero effectively. Mask of Madness does just that for void. It allows you to farm with the lifesteal orb and it allows you to take advantage of the IAS to proc more timelocks in chrono before big items. this discussion belongs in the faceless void strategy thread, where you can debate itemization. That's the point. If you only put MoM as a core item, the player has to account for many aspects that require experience to tackle. Even if we disregard the need for decent map awareness and positioning, how is he expected to know when Aghs/Maelstrom/BKB/Crit is the proper second item? That decision can win or lose the game on its own, and it's not always clear which one is the best choice. If you want to make it simple for newcomers, just package MoM and Maelstrom together. They have great synergy, the combination doesn't require much thought, and it covers all the basic areas. It's also a lot less punishing in that you don't need to use Berserk in potentially dangerous situations. On October 17 2014 05:01 TheYango wrote: Important and concise points. I've already talked too much for a guide thread, so I'll PM you. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Here are some examples: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128920907 http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128858659 http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128746588 If we can do one for Void, that'd be pretty good as I was looking to create that sort idea. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
the only thing I consider "core" on the hero are treads, stick, and MoM. from there, there are a ton of variables that need to be taken into account..thats why I believe that the rest of his itemization should be in the situational column. I can't think of any other items that void absolutely should have going into the mid-game in terms of a cookie-cutter build. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On October 17 2014 23:15 BluemoonSC wrote: dunno, I've always felt that faceless' pickups are vastly situational. the only thing I consider "core" on the hero are treads, stick, and MoM. from there, there are a ton of variables that need to be taken into account..thats why I believe that the rest of his itemization should be in the situational column. I can't think of any other items that void absolutely should have going into the mid-game in terms of a cookie-cutter build. For a lot of heroes, a lot of their pick-ups are situational. Unfortunately it is counter-productive to do it that way when a guide serves to instruct and guide new users to the hero. They don't want to be informed of every item that is valuable for the hero; they want to know how to win with that hero. The first answer would be: that depends on the match-up which can't be reasonably outlined thoroughly in a guide that is used in the client (so they refer to it in real-time; within a match). The second answer would be: Here's what Faceless Void should be getting to start fighting (while outlining his role, which should be clear as an introduction). Then you say: Here are some bigger items that Faceless Void cna get to really make his role better. Then the final answer is: sometimes, Faceless Void is faced with opportunities to farm more (Midas/Maelstrom/Battlefury) or behind and needs to fight earlier. etc. No hero is as straight-forward as the guides make it out to be, the point is to ease people into learning how to use the hero, what key items work (Mask of Madness, for example, works great with Void because he can take advantage of the attack speed without fearing of the vulnerability of activating MoM) and how to win in a game they were unprepared to win with X hero. If you stick everything in Situational and expect people to read every single description in the game, in real-time, you're overvaluing their patience, initial interest and approach to new heroes (especially in scenarios where they random'd the hero). Additionally, there is no separation when sticking things in Situational or even order. If I split things to "offensive" "defensive", then it's redundant in view of the items themselves. They need to be segregated between phases of the game, how the hero wants to be played (Aggressive/Late-game/) by users and frame items (a limited amount) by those categories. | ||
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Demartan
Netherlands38 Posts
In the Abaddon guide though, I understand the importance of bottle on supports now; yet I still think Urn could be in there for extra early mana regen and sustain if your carries tend to gank. Situational, of course. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On October 17 2014 23:24 Torte de Lini wrote: For a lot of heroes, a lot of their pick-ups are situational. Unfortunately it is counter-productive to do it that way when a guide serves to instruct and guide new users to the hero. They don't want to be informed of every item that is valuable for the hero; they want to know how to win with that hero. The first answer would be: that depends on the match-up which can't be reasonably outlined thoroughly in a guide that is used in the client (so they refer to it in real-time; within a match). The second answer would be: Here's what Faceless Void should be getting to start fighting (while outlining his role, which should be clear as an introduction). Then you say: Here are some bigger items that Faceless Void cna get to really make his role better. Then the final answer is: sometimes, Faceless Void is faced with opportunities to farm more (Midas/Maelstrom/Battlefury) or behind and needs to fight earlier. etc. No hero is as straight-forward as the guides make it out to be, the point is to ease people into learning how to use the hero, what key items work (Mask of Madness, for example, works great with Void because he can take advantage of the attack speed without fearing of the vulnerability of activating MoM) and how to win in a game they were unprepared to win with X hero. If you stick everything in Situational and expect people to read every single description in the game, in real-time, you're overvaluing their patience, initial interest and approach to new heroes (especially in scenarios where they random'd the hero). Additionally, there is no separation when sticking things in Situational or even order. If I split things to "offensive" "defensive", then it's redundant in view of the items themselves. They need to be segregated between phases of the game, how the hero wants to be played (Aggressive/Late-game/) by users and frame items (a limited amount) by those categories. makes sense..I give you a lot of credit..you really try to appeal to the masses with your guides..its not easy to create cookie cutter builds in such a complex game. if you're strongly considering it, perhaps 3 branches would be appropriate: "early fighting" (treads, MoM), "farm" (midas treads mael, and "utility" treads aghs refresher | ||
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Rulker
United States1477 Posts
On October 18 2014 01:03 BluemoonSC wrote: makes sense..I give you a lot of credit..you really try to appeal to the masses with your guides..its not easy to create cookie cutter builds in such a complex game. if you're strongly considering it, perhaps 3 branches would be appropriate: "early fighting" (treads, MoM), "farm" (midas treads mael, and "utility" treads aghs refresher I don't think having a "utility" branch where the core items are only aghs refresher is very good. Generally a "poor" or 2-3 position voids going to build treads->MoM->mael->aghs Refresher is more of a5-6 slotted very rich void item, and in a pub a void isn't going to be putting the refresher to use, especially if he gets it before a bunch of damage | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On October 18 2014 01:16 Rulker wrote: I don't think having a "utility" branch where the core items are only aghs refresher is very good. Generally a "poor" or 2-3 position voids going to build treads->MoM->mael->aghs Refresher is more of a5-6 slotted very rich void item, and in a pub a void isn't going to be putting the refresher to use, especially if he gets it before a bunch of damage the utility void is generally used when you have an outside damage source that you plan to have hit way harder than void himself. I don't necessarily consider this a "professional" way to play void, but its something you might see in a pub. as such, you want the agh's asap for it to be effective. | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On October 17 2014 23:47 Demartan wrote: Just found this summary, always use your guides for heroes that are new to me. Great to have a list with all roles for specific heroes (jungle etc) that are not listed in the top-rated ones ingame! TYVM In the Abaddon guide though, I understand the importance of bottle on supports now; yet I still think Urn could be in there for extra early mana regen and sustain if your carries tend to gank. Situational, of course. I removed Urn of Shadows for Bottle, but I might switch it back again (bottle in situational and Urn of Shadows as early-game). | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On October 18 2014 01:03 BluemoonSC wrote: makes sense..I give you a lot of credit..you really try to appeal to the masses with your guides..its not easy to create cookie cutter builds in such a complex game. if you're strongly considering it, perhaps 3 branches would be appropriate: "early fighting" (treads, MoM), "farm" (midas treads mael, and "utility" treads aghs refresher Not sure if it is the masses, but I try to aim for a group that I would assume the guides are for. It helps that Faceless Void is one of my worst heroes, so even I rely on the guide for help. We can break down Void into two core: Mask of Madness ramp-up and then early Agh's team-fighting or late-game farming Void: Midas into BF into Maelstrom or something. On October 18 2014 04:47 Atreides wrote: Minor comment/correction. In the Omniknight guide Crimson Guard section references Lone Druid. Guessing it was just a copy paste. Fixed | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7063 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On October 22 2014 04:07 tehh4ck3r wrote: Question: Does the situational tab in-game show up before or after the extension items tab? It's intended to be before as most items are meant to be in-between Core/Extension stuff. I also try to keep the order in terms of price/expected use of the game (so early-game situational items are usually first over late-game items like MKB). I try for it, though sometimes I miss/forget it. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items Removed Necromonicon Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Core Items (Eul's before Aghs).  Doom (Jungle)Removed Boots of Speed  EnchantressAdded Black King Bar to Situational Items Removed Boots of Speed Earth Spirit (Middle) Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Force Staff to Core Items (after Aghs) Removed Heaven's Halberd Earth Spirit (Lane) New Skill Build: W Q E Q E R E E Q Q R W W W (1. Geomagnetic Grip 2. Rolling Boulder 3. Boulder Smash) Moved Bottle to Early Game Added Urn of Shadows to Core Items Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items  Axe (Lane/Jungle) Axe (Lane/Jungle)Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items (Lane) Troll Warlord (Lane) New Build Skill Build: Q W W E W R W Q Q Q R E E E (1. Whirling Axes 2. Berseker's Rage 3. Fervor) Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tangos, Healing Salve, 2x Iron Branch Early Game: Ring of Aquila, Boots of Speed, Magic Wand Core Items: Phase Boots, Drums of Endurance, Yasha, Sange & Yasha, Black King Bar Situational Items: Vladmir's Offering, Heaven's Halberd, Monkey King Bar Extension Items: Satanic, Daedalus, Butterfly  Phantom AssassinRemoved Phase Boots Added Power Treads to Core - Farming Carry  Ursa (Lane/Jungle) Ursa (Lane/Jungle)Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items | ||
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