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United States47024 Posts
On October 07 2014 03:28 Sn0_Man wrote:
Totem at 8 is still essentially only optimal if u have a blink at 6/7 which seems unlikely for most games.
Otherwise ur not gonna get to ult->fissure very often so the key benefit of aftershock 2 is limited and the value of a free extra proc + extra dmg from totem seems 100% worth it at 2 or 4 depending on how ur laning phase is going.
AKA totem at 8 seems bad for cookie cutter but w/e.
Well, no, the other time you'd rather have totem at 8 is if you don't have Arcanes yet at 6/7, because without Arcanes, your mana is a bit too tight to actually use enough Enchant Totem enough for it to be worthwhile. At level 7, Earthshaker has 338 mana when Fissure+Echo is 315. A few Branches lets you squeeze out the 365 needed to fit an Enchant Totem in there, and you also have Stick charges, but if you're going to use Stick charges, a lot of the time you'd rather just cast a 2nd Fissure rather than the 1-2 Enchant Totems.
If you're doing well enough to have Arcanes at 6/7 (true of a safe trilane Shaker that can pull creeps freely) then earlier Totem is fine. But if you're on the poorer side (true of an offlane 2v2 Shaker who won't have any direct gold income unless he gets kills), it's totally reasonable to have a scenario where mana is tight enough for you that you'd rather wait till you have a few extra levels' worth of mana before you get Enchant Totem. Especially if Fissure is required as a defensive counter-pushing spell due to your teamcomp and you need to cast a Fissure to slow a push before a fight actually starts--you'll clarity up to make back some of the mana, but you'd be really hard pressed to fit all 3 spells into your mana even with stick charges if a fight happens soon after.
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 Phantom Lancer (Middle)
Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Removed Assault Cuirass
Added Abyssal Blade
Phantom Lancer (Lane)
Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Removed Assault Cuirass
Added Abyssal Blade
 Sniper (Middle)
New Skill Build: E W Q Q Q R Q E E E R W W W (1. Shrapnel 2. Take Aim 3. Headshot)
Tightened descriptions buckyman was here 4/10/14
Elder Titan (Middle)
Removed Phase Boots
Added Power Treads to Core Items
Elder Titan (Lane)
Removed Rod of Atos
Added Crimson Guard to Situational Items
Removed Tranquil Boots (Bottle is in Core Items)
Added Power Treads
 Spectre
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Spectral Dagger 2. Desolate 3. Dispersion)
 Beastermaster (Lane)
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items Before Arcane Boots
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Removed Drums of Endurance
Beastermaster (Middle)
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items Before Arcane Boots
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
 Pugna
Removed Clarity
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Ring of Basilius to Early Game
Removed Utility Items
Abaddon
Removed Urn of Shadows
Added Bottle to Core Items
 Axe (Lane)
Removed Mekansm
Moved Crimson Guard to Core Items
Spirit Breaker
New Skill Build: Q, E, W, Q, Q, R, Q, W, W, W, R, E, E, E (1. Charge of Darkness 2. Empowering Haste 3. Greater Bash)
 Leshrac (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q W Q W R E R E E E R (1. Split Earth 2. Diabolic Edict 3. Lightning Storm)
Treant Protector
Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Phoenix (Lane/Middle)
Phoenix (Lane/Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W W Q W R W Q Q E R E E E (1. Icarus Dive 2. Fire Spirits 3. Sun Ray)
Removed Bottle
Added Magic Wand
 Dazzle
Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Removed Medallion of Courage
 Viper
Starting Items: 4x Iron Branch, Healing Salve, Tangos, Circlet of Nobility
Lone Druid (Lane/Jungle)
Lone Druid (Lane/Jungle)
Fixed Starting Items Tab Title (now Starting Items (Bear))
Moved Teleport Scroll to Situational Items (Bear)
Moved Necromonicon to Extension Items (Lone Druid)
Moved Ghost Scepter to Extension Items (Lone Druid)
Moved Vanguard to Extension Items (Lone Druid)
Changed Situational Items tab to Situational Items (Bear)
IO
Removed Tranquil Boots
Added Arcane Boots to Extension Items
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I finally figured out my issue with phase boots as default boots for viper - orb walking. The constant disabling of the phase makes them kind of unwieldy without some very efficient autocast toggling which at least for me is more difficult by far than tread switching. There's that and mek's new mana cost of course that makes toggling treads a bit more of a necessity. I wouldn't go so far as to say that phase is bad on viper, just that treads are considerably easier to use than phase boots on him.
I've been playing lots of viper. Treads, aquila, wand, mek, aghs. My only comment is you probably want to add wand/stick somewhere in his items as he's reliant on the burst HP and mana in the same way every tanky hero is (especially with the new 4 branch start, otherwise the other two non-mek branches are wasted unless you make a pipe or crimson guard or something).
As yango said earlier, corrosive skin is the cookie cutter skill to max (it is viper's strongest skill by a large margin even with the most recent nerf) unless a player has a very keen understanding of a specific matchup. The nethertoxin max is unwieldy.
So basically my suggestions - change phase boots to treads, add wand to core, and change the skill build so that it maxes corrosive skin by 7.
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United States47024 Posts
Active Phase Boots tends to not actually have much interference with Orb usage, because usually the times when you need Phase Boots are the times when you won't be casting orb (when you're running away, or when you're engaging to get the first Poison Attack hit).
That said, Treads generally does pair more comfortably with Mek. Phase tends to work with a more MS-oriented item development rather than the more common pushing/man-fighting item choices of Mek+Agha.
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I don't see the interest in maxing Corrosive Skin first. When I hit 6-7 and I got Phase, I would want to start pushing towers/ganking.
How does Corrossive Skin help over the incredible effects of his offensive passive ability? Viper has pretty good range mid making any harassment he accrue wear down foes pretty fast.
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United States47024 Posts
Because Viper's early-midgame teamfight role is as a disruptive frontliner more than as a DPS point. This is also why you generally get Mek. Viper is not a ganking hero and Skin is actually a better skill in sieges/5 man pushes than Poison Attack or Nethertoxin.
DPS oriented play requires altogether different item choices and needs you to snowball into an item advantage from laning/solo kills. Someone who has that amount of proficiency/confidence with the hero wouldn't need a guide.
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On October 08 2014 02:42 TheYango wrote:
Because Viper's early-midgame teamfight role is as a disruptive frontliner more than as a DPS point. This is also why you generally get Mek. Viper is not a ganking hero and Skin is actually a better skill in sieges/5 man pushes than Poison Attack or Nethertoxin.
DPS oriented play requires altogether different item choices and needs you to snowball into an item advantage from laning/solo kills. Someone who has that amount of proficiency/confidence with the hero wouldn't need a guide.
I'll need to play him with Corrosive Skin. If I recall, Viper had this build a long time ago and I felt it was too defensive when he was very strong offensively.
5-man pushes are great, but rarely accomplished or coordinated in pubs from my experience. Considering Viper is available in Limited Heroes, I opted for a more offensive and universal passive than one that is more defensive since it is straight-forward, takes advantage of the hero's exp advantage, straight-forward to what is expected in a mid position (proactiveness) and works well with his fast level 6. Mekansm is an emphasis to them that they can play a bit more risky/chase for a kill knowing Meka will offer heal/armor in dire situations.
Corrosive Skin is something you don't necessarily notice and/or account for when making decisions at lower levels. That's a baseless observation beyond my own anecdotes, but I associate it similarly with Razor's passive in terms of observable effects.
I'm not making a strong case, so I will try a few games with max Corrosive Skin then W; but overall, I felt a lot more empowered both in-lane as well as prior to hitting 6 than playing with Corrosive Skin in the past.
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I don't understand why Torte's effort dumped to trench. It should be at least in Strategy imo.
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It doesn't refer to the pro scene so it's not in "gen main" or w/e. I guess it could live in strat.
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edit: ah, it's in Dota 2 General.
It's in Dota 2 General, section so The Tavern is al'right. Just makes this organized project seem very misc. or unassociated with main dota discussions. I thought The Tavern was for all less relative and even smaller anecdote discussions.
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Sniper (Middle/Lane)
Sniper (Middle/Lane)
New Tab: Core - Mask of Madness
Revised Item Build:
Core Items: Phase Boots, Yasha, Maelstrom, Sange & Yasha, Black King Bar
Core - Mask of Madness: Power Treads, Mask of Madness, Maelstrom, Black King Bar, Manta Style
Situational Items: Ring of Aquila, Blink Dagger, Monkey King Bar
Extension Items: Mjollnir, Daedalus, Eye of Skadi, Satanic, Butterfly
I don't like building this hero at all.
 Earthshaker
Removed Magic Wand
For a lot of heroes that are so situational, we're going to be trying to do more alternative "Core Items", Might not work out for all heroes, especially since we do want to maintain some semblance of a guide and less of a "here's an inefficient and confusing list of items you should buy"
Should also reduce the number of guides I need to create and create again because at nearly 140 guides, it's getting very taxing to update them all with small changes, patch numbers, etc.
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We'll be doing stats a little earlier this week (instead of the 18th) to the 15th, so I can line it up with our yearly stats overview planned on the 30th of October.
With ESL One done, I'll be taking another full look at competitive heroes and applying minor changes.
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You mean 3 branch instead of 4 branch on viper right? cause he only has 6 inventory slots
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United States47024 Posts
Why would you remove Wand but keep Bottle on Shaker?
You're going to buy Wand way more often, or at least Stick. Even a little extra mana goes a long way on a hero that has a low CD low mana cost stun.
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On October 13 2014 12:14 Doomblaze wrote:
You mean 3 branch instead of 4 branch on viper right? cause he only has 6 inventory slots
Thanks!
On October 13 2014 12:17 TheYango wrote:
Why would you remove Wand but keep Bottle on Shaker?
You're going to buy Wand way more often, or at least Stick. Even a little extra mana goes a long way on a hero that has a low CD low mana cost stun.
I wanted to promote Earthshaker as a roamer.
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I want to fix Beastmaster to provide two alternative builds: A more initating one another with meka
Also looking to add Alchemist Support, though I dont think it is all that popular yet.
Also, is the Bane build correct? I understand maxing Q is situational, but maybe going back to max Nightmare is better.
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United States47024 Posts
That doesn't mean you don't buy stick/wand lol.
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On October 14 2014 05:13 TheYango wrote:
That doesn't mean you don't buy stick/wand lol.
It just felt over the top in terms of items to buy as you keep on delaying Blink Dagger.
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On October 14 2014 05:14 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 05:13 TheYango wrote:
That doesn't mean you don't buy stick/wand lol. It just felt over the top in terms of items to buy as you keep on delaying Blink Dagger.
if that's your concern i'd rather have bottle removed and keep stick/wand in place of it- bottle costs 3x as much as a stick and 200g more than a wand
especially if your starting items have 3 branches, much more cost efficient to buy a wand
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On October 14 2014 08:36 tehh4ck3r wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 05:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2014 05:13 TheYango wrote:
That doesn't mean you don't buy stick/wand lol. It just felt over the top in terms of items to buy as you keep on delaying Blink Dagger. if that's your concern i'd rather have bottle removed and keep stick/wand in place of it- bottle costs 3x as much as a stick and 200g more than a wand especially if your starting items have 3 branches, much more cost efficient to buy a wand
The point of bottle was to compensate for the original 3x clarity starting items we had on Earthshaker about 2-3 weeks ago.
It floats him with runes to keep harassing/roaming while consistently keeping him high on mana.
Early Wand doesn't do that, it's just for in fights, which is situational given you have arcane anyways.
That's why I removed it as I felt the 350 gold delay towards blink/arcane was unnecessary. To go Wand, Bottle and Arcane Boots feels like a lot of pre-preemptive items before Blink. Bottle is a lot more comfortable to snag given how we want to people to play Earthshaker: as an active roamer/ganker and not just a passive-laner. Bottle holds a lot of weight throughout the game for earthshaker, no?
Thoughts?
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EPT
