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evilfatsh1t
Australia8806 Posts
bottle is only viable if you get bounty runes though. if you get bottle but you dont plan on picking up as many bounty runes as you can, then you will indeed get a late blink. arcanes+bottle is pretty overkill on mana for a guy who has no reason to be spamming fissure. you could make a case for using mana to farm neutrals, but then youre not really roaming or protecting someone like you should be | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
There's nothing wrong with starting a fuckton of clarities on Shaker. I don't even know how Bottle has anything to do with your starting items because you'd still get Boots first if you're roaming. How is Bottle "a lot more comfortable to snag" when it's 600 gold straight up while you get a Stick from the side shop for 200 and don't even have to upgrade it if the game doesn't suit it? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 14 2014 09:22 evilfatsh1t wrote: bottle is fine. you dont need wand if you have arcanes tbh. youre not gonna use your whole mana pool in one team fight. also bottle gives you a legit excuse to take all the bounty runes bottle is only viable if you get bounty runes though. if you get bottle but you dont plan on picking up as many bounty runes as you can, then you will indeed get a late blink. arcanes+bottle is pretty overkill on mana for a guy who has no reason to be spamming fissure. you could make a case for using mana to farm neutrals, but then youre not really roaming or protecting someone like you should be Arc+Wand, Arc+Bottle, and Boots+Bottle+Wand are all going to be ok some games, there's no reason why wand should be gone from the guide entirely when the other two are there. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8806 Posts
On October 14 2014 09:32 TheYango wrote: Arc+Wand, Arc+Bottle, and Boots+Bottle+Wand are all going to be ok some games, there's no reason why wand should be gone from the guide entirely when the other two are there. i never said it should be gone from the guide. i was merely providing a justification for torte's choice of bottle over wand | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Wand Arcane Urn of Shadows Bottle For someone like Bane, I can keep Urn, Wand (Early Game) and then stick Arcane in Core Items But it isn't so clear-cut for other heroes. Earthshaker was those heroes on a crack. Ogre Magi is another where I have Bottle -> Brown Boots -> Wand -> Arcane. etc. I should stick Bottle into Situational Items, but it doesn't feel like it is so much as situational as relatively much more prominent of use especially since rune change. Throw Urn of Shadows in and they all have very specific situations that I can't outline in a guide without going overboard on the Situational Slots. IO has Bottle, Urn of Shadows, Wand, Bottle. Leshrac has Wand, Arcane, Urn of Shadows with Bottle as Situational and Meka. There's a lot of particularity on these heroes that makes everything muddled. If I put a ton of clarities on Earthshaker then it wouldn't make sense to get Bottle given the clarities are meant to compensate until Wand and Arcane meanwhile. A mana "floater" where Earthshaker can freely replenish in fights or through runes until he snags his two main core: Arcane/Blink Dagger. The early-game is split into a blend of varied playstyles and match-ups that I'm facing a challenge of picking one or the other or settling on a middle-ground that at least incorporates the majority of the four items. I think I'd probably prefer placing Bottle as Situational Items for a variety of heroes, but it also affects Starting Items for some. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
If I put a ton of clarities on Earthshaker then it wouldn't make sense to get Bottle given the clarities are meant to compensate until Wand and Arcane meanwhile. You keep getting fixated on this, but this isn't really true. A roaming Shaker will still get Boots first because by and large, Boots has a larger impact on roaming efficiency than Bottle does. As such, it's not like you can skimp on Clarities just because you're getting Bottle. The Bottle only comes 300 gold faster than finishing Arcanes does. Regardless of whether or not you're getting bottle, you're still going to mass clarity start unless your team forces you into getting both chicken and wards, and even then, you're probably going to use the chick to ferry some clarities. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
Personally I would consider bottle and arcanes an either/or until after blink, unless there's a very good reason to get both. | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
Arcane and wand (stick) are fine on ES. You don't want heroes who heavily rely on blink dagger to also get bottle and urn, since it screws up their midgame without it. Bottle is better on ogre since hes more likely to get up close and personal. Ignite and his armor allow him to tower dive when ganking and come out alive. With ES, the ganks are decided on how you fissure. If you block them next to a hero or 2, they're dead. You're not going to be the one who runs into people. Ogre can benefit more from both the HP and mana, and doesnt need a blink to be effective later in the game. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
 Sniper (Middle/Lane) Sniper (Middle/Lane)New Tab: Core - Mask of Madness Revised Item Build: Core Items: Phase Boots, Yasha, Maelstrom, Sange & Yasha, Black King Bar Core - Mask of Madness: Power Treads, Mask of Madness, Maelstrom, Black King Bar, Manta Style Situational Items: Ring of Aquila, Blink Dagger, Monkey King Bar Extension Items: Mjollnir, Daedalus, Eye of Skadi, Satanic, Butterfly I don't like building this hero at all.  EarthshakerAdded Magic Wand to Early Created Tab: Situaitonal Items Moved Bottle to Situational Items  EnchantressCreated new tab: "Core - Aghanim's" Added Hand of Midas to Core - Aghanim's Added Power Treads to Core - Aghanim's Added Aghanim's Scepter to Core - Aghanim's Added Orchid Malevolence to Core - Aghanim's For Alternative "Core" ways to play heroes, please let me know. It is something I want to start incorporating as I like offering players choice in how they want to play the hero (offensive Enchantress over a more traditional one, etc.) For many heroes, I will be trying to shift bottle. Especially for roamers and proactive early-game heroes | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
We're doing it two days early as I want it to line up with the 31st of October. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7063 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On October 16 2014 09:12 CosmicSpiral wrote: I would make the argument that Maelstrom should be core for Void, but Mask should be situational (but a decent choice in many situations). Due to the way Mask boosts his killing potential, it creates certain issues regarding snowballing and item selection later on in the game. They're situational, Mask of Madness is generally more accepted. Maelstrom (and potentially Mjollnir) can also be picked up alongside. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
After ~15 days (October 3rd to October 16th), we have risen from 38,248,753 to 40,296,925 combined subscriptions A difference of 2,048.172 Average Growth of subscribers is 292,006.70 Growth Percentage is 5.35% 5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):
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Associated Reddit Topic - October 16th | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Kunkka (Middle) Build Weaver (Lane) Build Dragon Knight (Middle) Build Skywrath Mage (Lane) Build Tusk (Middle) Build Naga Siren (Middle) Build Elder Titan (Lane) Build Ursa (Lane) Build Nyx Assassin (Lane) Build Axe (Jungle) Build Ember Spirit (Middle) Build Lifestealer (Lane) Build Shadow Shaman (Middle) Build Earth Spirit (Middle) Build
A couple of days ago, I released a new article: Community Engage: Identify Yourself. Any feedback or comments would be cool. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On October 16 2014 23:00 Torte de Lini wrote: They're situational, Mask of Madness is generally more accepted. Maelstrom (and potentially Mjollnir) can also be picked up alongside. You have Mask as a core item and Maelstrom as situational. Mask can only be considered core on offlane Void, as he has to be stingy with his initial item choice. MoM + Maelstrom is a snowball build and unreliable in the hard carry role. With tower gold diminished and Chrono repeatedly nerfed in 6.82, it's harder to secure the necessary kills to stay ahead on the item curve. Mask also gives you a lot of problems that Maelstrom doesn't. Maelstrom after MoM is usually necessary. MoM -> Aghs and similar builds died out because the timing window where Time Lock alone does decisive damage is too small. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
MOM can be easily build on safe lane voids to let him participate fights very early(level 6-8), increase farming speed in jungle. Can be still proves its value in mid game where you land good chronos which prevent intervention from the opposition. Time lock is very very valuable skill and remains strong until late-game scenarios where you farm more than the worth of MOM with the help of MOM itself anyways. Tower gold and chrono nerfs didn't reduce the effectiveness of mom since you at most have 100-200 least gold more because of tower nerfs and 0.5 seconds less chrono can be ignored by the help of supports. Since the last 6.82c nerf chrono even more, aghs would be a very valuable choice. Worst case you can sell Mom to have a better orb/AS in later stages of the game when the item drops off. | ||
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