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On November 14 2013 15:13 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:05 Craton wrote:
Given that SC2 is CPU bound, I don't see how you get a cheaper one and do "just as good." Because that CPU is over kill. My old i7 920 plays it on ultra, just fine. It's a matter of min-maxing with budget to get core desired traits. Cheaper CPU can still play SC2 on ultra. Leaving room for more budget on GPU, which allows for more gaming options. Still going to play SC2 on ultra, but now with extra money in GPU, you can start playing stuff like BF4 on really high settings.
BF4 is very CPU-demanding though.
Edit: By the way, look for good deals such as this: http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=25172&cPath=877
^2 Free games for $20 more. Not sure how the 7870 compares with the 650 Ti boost (no time to do research since it's 7:23 LOL) but you may want to look into that since I think the 7870 might out-perform the 650 Ti. 650 is a generation older than 7000 anyway.
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On November 14 2013 15:17 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 15:13 wei2coolman wrote:On November 14 2013 14:05 Craton wrote:
Given that SC2 is CPU bound, I don't see how you get a cheaper one and do "just as good." Because that CPU is over kill. My old i7 920 plays it on ultra, just fine. It's a matter of min-maxing with budget to get core desired traits. Cheaper CPU can still play SC2 on ultra. Leaving room for more budget on GPU, which allows for more gaming options. Still going to play SC2 on ultra, but now with extra money in GPU, you can start playing stuff like BF4 on really high settings. BF4 is very CPU-demanding though.
gpu going to bottleneck much faster than cpu.
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On November 14 2013 15:19 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 15:17 Incognoto wrote:On November 14 2013 15:13 wei2coolman wrote:On November 14 2013 14:05 Craton wrote:
Given that SC2 is CPU bound, I don't see how you get a cheaper one and do "just as good." Because that CPU is over kill. My old i7 920 plays it on ultra, just fine. It's a matter of min-maxing with budget to get core desired traits. Cheaper CPU can still play SC2 on ultra. Leaving room for more budget on GPU, which allows for more gaming options. Still going to play SC2 on ultra, but now with extra money in GPU, you can start playing stuff like BF4 on really high settings. BF4 is very CPU-demanding though. gpu going to bottleneck much faster than cpu.
I will let Cyro answer you. Either way it's hard not to get a 4670k if it fits your budget! :p
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On November 14 2013 15:11 Incognoto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Don't shit on Kingston RAM until you see precise specs. While it's true that most of their RAM kits are indeed bad 1.65v, when I built my computer I found a decent 1.5v kit which wasn't priced badly at all. If the RAM you're getting is 1600 MHz at 1.5V and it's not priced too badly, then you're good to go. If you're going to edge out every last drop of performance out of your CPU, then getting the GA-Z87X-D3H is a good idea. However if you're really going to go for performance, you would also need a better cooler. The CM 212 is a good cooler for its price, but it's insufficient for high overclocks where you would be better off with a Noctua or something like that. The motherboard and cooler you're getting now support overclocking well enough if you're looking to try it out. From my personal experience, I have a 4670, which can't be overclocked, yet it still does everythin I want it to, including 1080p video recording at 5k kbps bitrate (using OBS)*. So if you're overclocking for the first time, well, maybe you don't necessarily need the the last .3 - .2 GHz. It's your call. If you stick to that motherboard, though, you can also get this case: http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=18919&cPath=547^What's good about this case: 1. It's Fractal Design, they make excellent cases, particularly at the low-end. 2. It's designed with airflow in mind which is good support for overclocking. 3. It's got its own case fans to come with it. 4. Fits your budget. It's designed for microATX motherboards, for ATX motherboards you'd need to dish out some extra cash for the Arc Midi R2, which is also a great case. I'm also concerned about no mention of your PSU. I browsed PC Case Gear a bit and found the selection was kind of shitty. There's the CX430 there but if you're going to overclock you're better off dishing out some more cash for a better PSU. You're better off looking yourself and then asking here what people think of your PSU. ^^ *5k quality bitrate is close to the highest possible quality you can get watching a youtube video by the way, just to give a sort of indicator. OBS is actually amazing considering how little resources it uses compared to FRAPS or something.
He should at least get a PSU with 2x 6/8pin connectors. For future GPU's sake.
On November 14 2013 15:17 Incognoto wrote:
650 is a generation older than 7000 anyway.
650 Ti Boost came out after the 7790 (Bonaire) which came out an the tail end of HD7000. Hell, GK106 (GTX 660, 650 Ti) came out after Pitcarn (7870/7850).
On November 14 2013 15:13 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:05 Craton wrote:
Given that SC2 is CPU bound, I don't see how you get a cheaper one and do "just as good." Because that CPU is over kill. My old i7 920 plays it on ultra, just fine. It's a matter of min-maxing with budget to get core desired traits. Cheaper CPU can still play SC2 on ultra. Leaving room for more budget on GPU, which allows for more gaming options. Still going to play SC2 on ultra, but now with extra money in GPU, you can start playing stuff like BF4 on really high settings.
By that logic you should have bought a dual-core i5 instead of your i7 when you did.
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GS600 does have that, it gives da juice for my 7970. For $95 it seems awfully expensive though, heh. Then again everything except kangaroo shit is expensive in Australia.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 14 2013 15:13 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2013 14:05 Craton wrote:
Given that SC2 is CPU bound, I don't see how you get a cheaper one and do "just as good." Because that CPU is over kill. My old i7 920 plays it on ultra, just fine. It's a matter of min-maxing with budget to get core desired traits. Cheaper CPU can still play SC2 on ultra. Leaving room for more budget on GPU, which allows for more gaming options. Still going to play SC2 on ultra, but now with extra money in GPU, you can start playing stuff like BF4 on really high settings.
If you wanna bench sc2 against me, i'm up for it any time 
Because that CPU is over kill. My old i7 920 plays it on ultra, just fine.
"Just fine" means something different for everybody. My friend plays sc2 on Ultra with a core 2 duo and a radeon 5770 "just fine".
The debate in this case is: Having a stronger GPU would not increase FPS in sc2 at any point where it mattered. Having an overclocked 4670k instead of a 920 at stock would mean like 3 times higher FPS in any fight, though. It's hard to predict numbers with such a performance gap.
As for bf4 - if you're concerned about maxing with AA then i'd get a 7950/7970/280x or whatever equivalent for the 3gb RAM and performance probably better than 770 by a bit even on 7950 with oc and mantle, if not, 660 is fine. I've not seen good data since beta and working on it a bit (got a few convo's on ocn) but on somewhere between med-max on 1080p for a 64 player server you'd still be CPU bound during your worst areas of performance, i think.
*5k quality bitrate is close to the highest possible quality you can get watching a youtube video by the way, just to give a sort of indicator. OBS is actually amazing considering how little resources it uses compared to FRAPS or something
x264, not OBS
x265 will be more usable soon and promises to be way better (at least when you have cpu time to spare), http://x265.org/index.html
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is it free though?!
hmm apparently it is
well if it turns out to be better than OBS i guess i'll use it. one good thing about OBS is that it's retardedly easy to use though.
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Just a quick question:
Can an XFX Pro 450W PSU supply the following setup?
CPU: i5-4670 3.4GHz
Video Card:GTX650 Ti 1GB
Motherboard: ASRock B85M-HDS
Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3
SSD: AData 60GB
HDD: Seagate 1TB
Optical Drive: Samsung SH-224
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
x264 is used by OBS, and by Xsplit. It's an encoder, and streaming programs are a lot more than just encoders
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 14 2013 21:38 Lipko wrote:
Just a quick question:
Can an XFX Pro 450W PSU supply the following setup?
CPU: i5-4670 3.4GHz
Video Card:GTX650 Ti 1GB
Motherboard: ASRock B85M-HDS
Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3
SSD: AData 60GB
HDD: Seagate 1TB
Optical Drive: Samsung SH-224
Easily, probably twice over even
Yay page 100
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On November 14 2013 21:39 Cyro wrote:
x264 is used by OBS, and by Xsplit. It's an encoder, and streaming programs are a lot more than just encoders
ohhhh
oh ok. wow. such efficiency
@hungarian friend: that's also a reliable PSU so it's a good choice getting that.
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@Cyro: thx a lot for the fast answer
@Incognoto:
You suggested the basis of this build I mentioned in my post before, like a month ago.
That time I decided to wait a bit to get some more money and buy that i5 instead of an i3-4130 and in the mean time I did some research on the components you suggested.
I will put it into a Fractal Core 1000 case.
It will be the first PC I ever built so a huge thanks to everyone in this thread for helping me out.
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oh, cheers. yeah fractal core 1000 is a great case for its price. have fun!
edit: since why the hell not, I opened up my PC to check for dust. decided to snap a few pics for the fuck of it. here's what that case would look like
http://imgur.com/a/dJBRv#jFooM1q
Edit: By the way I'm curious about something. On overclock.net you see a lot of really great modded computers which are water cooled.
Water cooling is interesting however I'm curious about the way the loop works. If you water cool both your GPU and your CPU in the same loop, what's the best way to do so?
Imagine this loop: CPU > GPU > Rad > reservoir > pump > CPU
^Wouldn't the heat from the CPU be injected into the GPU's backplate? Or does it not matter? Wouldn't it be better to have something like (this would require more tubing though, that's the problem):
CPU > Rad 1 > GPU > Rad 2 > Res > Pump > CPU
Or perhaps even two different loops? Or is that first loop sufficient for cooling since the CPU won't get that hot anyway since it's water cooled?
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On November 14 2013 22:27 Incognoto wrote:
Edit: By the way I'm curious about something. On overclock.net you see a lot of really great modded computers which are water cooled.
Water cooling is interesting however I'm curious about the way the loop works. If you water cool both your GPU and your CPU in the same loop, what's the best way to do so?
Imagine this loop: CPU > GPU > Rad > reservoir > pump > CPU
^Wouldn't the heat from the CPU be injected into the GPU's backplate? Or does it not matter? Wouldn't it be better to have something like (this would require more tubing though, that's the problem):
CPU > Rad 1 > GPU > Rad 2 > Res > Pump > CPU
Or perhaps even two different loops? Or is that first loop sufficient for cooling since the CPU won't get that hot anyway since it's water cooled?
Order doesn't matter (besides having pump after res, don't want to pump air into the lines when you are filling). Once your water is loaded then the temps are not going to fluctuate to any appreciable degree.
I would go:
CPU (>VRM) > GPU > Res > Pump > Rad/Rads > CPU as usually that would make the shortest loop.
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I'm surprised. So what makes one water cooler better than another? Should one focus on just having huge ass rads with good fans on them or something?
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Good questions! If you were a temperature freak for your CPU, you'd ideally want two loops probably* (or just one massive one) because:
*There's not actually that much difference in a lot of setups, water is still water, especially if you've got lots of rads
Cooling in a water loop is about delta temperatures, lets say you have a CPU dumping 200w of heat into a water loop - the bigger the temperature difference between the water and the ambient air, the faster heat is transferred between them by the radiator+fans. That creates an effect where water heats up a bit, then stabilizes at a certain temperature, because your cooling solution might be capable of removing 200w from the loop when the water is 15c hotter than ambient air for example, but before it reaches that temperature, the delta between the two temperatures isn't enough to transfer that much heat energy out and stop the water temperature from rising.
^You might have for example, ambient 20c air, 200w CPU and a bunch of radiators. With 200w going into the loop, you might stabilize with the water being at 30c, so 10c above ambient.
If you added a couple of 780's and your loop now had 800w going into it instead of 200w - it might heat up way more, so that the water was like 30c above ambient instead of 10c, which would add 20c to the temperature of everything in the loop. More heat transfer out through radiator space and more/better static pressure fans means you can take the same amount of heat energy out of a loop with a lower delta temperature (water on top of ambient air) so your components are cooler.
Or perhaps even two different loops? Or is that first loop sufficient for cooling since the CPU won't get that hot anyway since it's water cooled?
Temperature and heat output are not the same thing. For example, a gtx780 at stock might run at 75c and output 250w of heat. On water, it might run at 50c and output 400w of heat.
Back to your former question:
^Wouldn't the heat from the CPU be injected into the GPU's backplate?
Yes, but heat is a slow thing. In the space of a CPU die, for example, which is really damn tiny (less than 2 square centimeters) then 200w is an extremely scary thing, it'll jump 30c to 90c almost instantly. If you have a loop that has like 1-5 litres of water in it however (i have no idea how much) then it's not a lot of heat at all, the water that passes through the CPU block won't actually be heated up very much.
The amount of heat being put into the loop, on a more macro scale of after like 30 seconds or two minutes, is much more important than how much water gets heated up when it touches a CPU block for a couple of seconds
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On November 14 2013 23:39 Incognoto wrote:
I'm surprised. So what makes one water cooler better than another? Should one focus on just having huge ass rads with good fans on them or something?
No it's a lot more complicated than that.
You have to design your loop around a deltaT (load water temp - ambient). For example with quiet fans a typical 320mm rad will cool ~320w at 10C deltaT. However if you want better temps say a 5C deltaT that 320mm rad will only cool around ~130w. Lower the deltaT the higher the performance of the loop.
E: The reason CLC's are so inferior to a custom loop is because:
1: They use ethylene glycol instead of water. Bacteria can't grow in ethylene glycol but in every way else it's vastly inferior to water.
2: DeltaT's are pretty damn high.
E2: Awhile back anandtech did a watercooling article:
They had terrible results because they were using quiet fans on very low FPI radiators (I believe they are 12FPI, regular ones are ~20) and was trying to cool 800w with 600mm worth of radiators (which because of the low FPI and quiet they are only good for ~450w at 10C deltaT). Too bad they couldn't measure the DeltaT of their loop because I wouldn't be surprised to see ~20C.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
A 120mm rad isn't enough surface area to handle 100-350w very well***, custom loop is a big investment that i'd like to do, but meanwhile if i went CLC it'd be with a 2x120*120, 2x140*140 or 3x120*120 width rad, probably push/pull with some fan noise - otherwise i'd be paying over twice as much as i did for high end air just to have comparable performance
***this puts h60 etc completely out of the window compared to high end air cooling in terms of raw performance and also noise
E2: Awhile back anandtech did a watercooling article:
They had terrible results because
The day anand posts an article that seems to have correct results, i'll be surprised.. and then feel bad because i wasn't educated enough to see the massive holes in it
Friend on OCN just added a 1080 rad (9x 120mm*120mm), so he's got like 15 120mm fans on his loop. If i was quadfiring, dat is how i would do things
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I think I got the gist of it, makes a lot more sense now.
Basically our GPU/CPU will be throwing in heat into the loop. Assuming they throw in 500w of heat right off the bat, and the loop can eliminate the 450w of heat at ambient temperature, that means that the loop is going to see its temperature raised, so 50w of heat is still in the loop. Since the loop is going to have its temperature raised, the difference between the loop temperature and ambient temperature, DeltaT is going to be higher as well. However, the higher DeltaT goes, the more heat will be eliminated by the loop.
The hotter the loop, the more heat is eliminated from the loop, since heat will transfer more quickly between two bodies with vastly different temperatures.
Eventually, after the loop reaches a certain temperature (which we'll call To). At that temperature, the heat being eliminated by the loop (with rads/fans) is equal to the heat being injected into the loop (with GPU/CPU). The difference between the loop's temperature (To) and the ambient air temperature (which I'll call Ta) is DeltaT. If we take our 500w example, it means our rads/fans can eliminate 500w of heat from the loop when the temperature in the loop is at To. If the temperature in the loop is inferior to To, then the heat eliminated by the rads/fans is going to be inferior to 500w. Of course the real temperature to look at here isn't To, it's To-Ta = DeltaT
^That makes a fuck-ton of sense.
So now the question is, what makes the difference between loops? Ideally we would want a loop to function at a very low DeltaT. Meaning we would want the rads/fan to be able to extract heat efficiently without having to force the loop into higher temperatures. Since the higher the loop's temperature will be, the higher the temperature of our silicon.
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Hey, I have a question about a new build mainly for sc2 streaming, maybe some other games from time to time (no streaming those), like the upcoming witcher 3, not caring that much about best graphics just smooth gameplay. My friend has a pretty tight budget but here is what we've come up with thus far:
CPU: FX6300
GPU: R9 270X
Motherboard: MSI 970A-G43
RAM: SILICON POWER DDR3 2x4GB
Case: Aerocool Ultimate gaming X-PREDATOR X1 Evil Black
PSU: OCZ ZS 550W, 80 Plus Bronze
HDD: WD Blue 3.5'' 1TB SATA3 7200RPM 64MB
Cooler: HYPER 212 X Army
If you have any suggestions about changing something or upgrading/downgrading some part please share, neither me nor my friend are very experienced in computers. Thanks!
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EPT
