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waffling1
599 Posts
removing the lid is a matter of dexterity and how steady you are with your hands. don't belittle just cause i'm trying to learn or confirm. What im asking is if I can get away with not applying a cooler to the CPU when testing for defectiveness. This depends how long it takes to confirm it because there is a transient phase to heat build-up. Can you do that quickly enough so that you don't have to bother installing/removing the cooler. | ||
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MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
On March 24 2013 11:42 waffling1 wrote: What im asking is if I can get away with not applying a cooler to the CPU when testing for defectiveness. This depends how long it takes to confirm it because there is a transient phase to heat build-up. Can you do that quickly enough so that you don't have to bother installing/removing the cooler. No. Also keep in mind delidding voids the warranty. Presumably this was obvious, but still. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
As long as the CX430 doesn't fry my other components again, it will be cost effective over time. 3 years warrantee for $20 (say, $25). compared to capstone 450W for $70. it would have to last around 8-9 years if you're measuring by time/price. How long do capstones last btw? If i can keep a capstone for 10 years, lol, that would be great. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20333 Posts
Delidding is a great option for example Belial who can run CPU at 5ghz 24/7 but even with an nh-d14, great case fan setup it's not enough to cool it without delid - so you can gain like 300mhz (from ~4.7ghz) directly out of just having the lower temperatures, being temp limited - There's no upgrade path otherwise, unless you were to make a custom water loop or something - which is in a whole other league for performance, cost, etc. | ||
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skyR
Canada13817 Posts
The original CX430 which was released three or so years ago was not 80PLUS, the CX430v2 was 80PLUS, the newest one which is just named CX430 is 80PLUS Bronze. Quality units last a long time, no one can give you a specific time length since it depends on the environment, load, and a little bit of luck. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
So i can go to around 4.5ghz no problem without delidding. It sounded like i5-3570k starts to see rapid temp increases past that point/region. yeah i'm not worried about the last additional 300MHz or so. Going from 3.5 to 4.5 is plenty of increase for me.for me. Any more and the performance/cost margins are not worth it. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20333 Posts
Your CPU could do 4.5ghz on 1.1v, it could take 1.4v - it's likely to take around 1.26v and this will affect temperatures massively based on luck of the draw - and there's some temperature variables like thermal paste application, case temps and airflow, ambient temperatures etc - so its hard to give precise numbers, but you're basically good up to 4.4-4.5ghz or so - its the 200-600mhz AFTER that causing the struggle. To use an example, my CPU can do 4.5ghz on ~1.17v. Its pretty far above average - but can do 4.6, 4.7, 4.8ghz on about 1.21v, 1.245v, 1.285v - Going to 5ghz stable though, you're talking 1.4v+. The gap is massive. I would not be suprised to see 200mhz past 4.8 costing 15-20c, which of course makes a 4500mhz overclock trivial compared to a 5000mhz one. You could give an argument about performance:cost margins, but in the end you could say: On a 5ghz i5 3570k, your FPS minimums will be more than 10% better in sc2 than a 4.5ghz one - Regardless of if that system has $3000 of graphics cards in SLI, an extreme edition lga2011 CPU, basically anything - Performance on some things is limited by single threaded CPU performance, Starcraft 2 is one of these things, basically the only way to improve performance past a certain point (lets say a hd7770 and unlocked i5) is to overclock the CPU further, which can make it quite worthwhile to do if you care about the smaller amounts of performance - I mean if you're building a £1.5k system - and spending £50 more on CPU cooling would allow you to improve sc2 battle performance by even 5%? It's cost effective. | ||
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MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
The i5-3570k & i7-3770k are a little odd because they don't produce a ton of heat, but they get locally hot due to how small all the components are. To make a long story short, it's really simple and easy to get to an overclock like 4.5ghz because these new chips take so little voltage to get there that cooling them is easy. But once you start overclocking higher than that cooling becomes very important - and not so much total heat dissipation as making the actual heat transfer from CPU to heatsink as efficient as possible. This is why delidding is somewhat popular, it essentially removes a step between the actual working part of the CPU & the heatsink (the 'lid' is the working part's protective cover & thermal paste filling the thin space between the working part & the protective cover). This has notable benefits for allowing one to reach the higher level of overclocks, which is particularly satisfying for people who were aware that the previous generation of Intel chips could get near 5.0ghz fairly easily if you pumped enough voltage into it. At least, for those who don't mind risking cracking the working part when delidding or mounting a heatsink onto it. But this is also the land of diminishing returns - a ton of effort & sometimes expense for those last .2-.4 Ghz. A normal, moderate overclock like 4.4ghz or 4.5 is really easy to do without all this delidding stuff. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
and i fully agree with the conditionality of "cost effective". I made sure to qualify my statement with "for me". The i5-3570k & i7-3770k are a little odd because they don't produce a ton of heat, but they get locally hot due to how small all the components are. the MF strikes again. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
But yeah, there are some Corsair HX520 from 2006 still in operation today, plenty of other old power supplies in the wild still working. Something like Capstone is built with maybe equivalent kind of tier parts (some better, some worse), but the Capstone has the advantage of having about half the heat generated internally because of the higher efficiency, and lower temps would prolong the life of components. The higher performance and lower output ripple is also better for the life of the output filtering capacitors in the Capstone, which are among the more fragile components in a power supply, other than maybe the fan. So it might well last longer than some stuff like HX520. It could last 10 years maybe. Maybe you might need a new fan or something. It really really depends on load and usage though, luck of the draw. The ~5% efficiency advantage over CX would also translate to cost savings on electric bills over time, though not much. Again, depends heavily on usage. edit: if you include rebate savings, nothing's going to beat CX at ~$20-30 range though, for value. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
My OCZ with a warrantee of 3 years died in 5. I fully expect a couple of years over the warranty. I understand the lifespan is not exact. Whenever that is the case, the answer changes from a single value to a distribution (the most concise being a mean or median value). So my question about the capstone was one as well. an order of magnitude. 3 years? 5? 8? 11? very different. I know only enthusiasts would record or know things things if there isn't any sort of collective data available. I'll just go with the CX 430 since i'm strapped for cash right now. great time/cost too, even if i replace it right after the 3 year warranty and do so repeatedly. HRM... CX430 only has 1 PCIe connector. My Radeon 5830 requires two. I wonder why my mobo died but not the other parts. Does the mobo act as a protector? Even the GPU, which runs on the 12V large amperage rail connects directly to the power supply... | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
A pop is probably something other than a capacitor, btw. Nobody really knows the distributions of failures other than maybe the companies (but they only know what's reported to them), and they sure aren't going to tell us about it. For a relatively new design, it's not like they really know yet anyway. Which OCZ was it? | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On March 24 2013 16:39 Myrmidon wrote: I completely forgot the context of what you're talking about. Power supply died and the motherboard's dead but not other parts? Were there apparent (visible) signs of damage? If so, where? The motherboard actually gets all the rails from the power supply, so if there's more chances for something to be affected I guess. Also I think some or a lot of the chips on the mobo run off say +3.3V or maybe +5V. There's a voltage regulator between PSU rail voltages and CPU, GPU, and RAM, so yeah, those are more protected. A pop is probably something other than a capacitor, btw. Nobody really knows the distributions of failures other than maybe the companies (but they only know what's reported to them), and they sure aren't going to tell us about it. For a relatively new design, it's not like they really know yet anyway. Which OCZ was it? I switched out just the power supply to see if the computer would run. It didn't. I tried many times over days. Then I tested all the other components on my other computer one by one, except the motherboard and CPU (and optical drive, which I'm not worried about). I don't see any visible damage on the mobo. It would be good to undergo a good diagnosis, but I'm not sure what other test configuration would be valid. Switching out the PSU should be a valid test. Replugging with new graphics, HD, SSD, doesn't make sense, especially since I tested them to be fine..... (ACTUALLY... when I played SC2, the screen would become unresponsive around when i make my first drone.... repeatedly so. The computer isn't frozen, but just the picture won't change. When I do a ctrl alt del, and fiddle it around, the frames start displaying and updating again. This seemed more like a software issue than GPU damage. Am I wrong? Anyway, continuing... I wouldn't be able to test my CPU without another mobo, or my mobo without another AMD3+ core. It was time I upgraded anyway, so I thot i'd get a new mobo and CPU. PSU was OCZ ModXstream-Pro 700W CPU was AMD phenom II x4 965. Mobo was Gigabyte 790XTA-UD4 What is a pop if not a bad capacitor? An arc? I know something burned because it smelled bad. | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On March 22 2013 18:22 llIH wrote: Hello I am thinking about getting a laptop that I can carry around when I travel. But I want it to be able to play sc2-HotS on low settings and be able to watch streams at 720p. How much approximately would I have to pay to get such a laptop? I do not care about looks. What CPU and GPU would be good enough for low settings for HotS? (Low settings without lag) I was thinking 15". But any options that are reasonable just throw them at me. NB: I'm on a budget. Not specifically. But the lower the better. Someone have time to help me? | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
When a cheap power supply is loaded past what it's capable of and dies with some kind of pop, that's usually some switching transistor or other semiconductor part rupturing. For a better power supply, I'm not sure what the usual modes of failure are. It can be a range of things. But anyway, if a short develops somewhere, or maybe an open circuit in the wrong place, a lot of current could be going through certain parts that aren't supposed to be handling that much, and that could cause a transistor to heat up rapidly and explode. Some bad solder joints work for a long time, but after many many heat / cold cycles can have issues, or something like that. I wouldn't really think there would be an arc unless there's some other problem first. Kind of vastly overkill on the GPU side but a good deal at $550: link, use coupon code 2Q?XNXR2DXQ13G Dell Inspiron 15R Special Edition Core i5-3210M Radeon HD 7730M (way underclocked desktop HD 7750) I'd avoid something with under an Ivy Bridge Core i5. Gotta have that CPU speed. That's not much over the laptops using Core i5 with integrated graphics. Especially if you're not maxing out the HD 7730M, there should be some turbo boost on the i5 there, especially since that laptop can be configured with an i7. Or I guess cheapest possible, Acer, etc., $450: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834215992 | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On March 23 2013 16:07 MisterFred wrote: The Asus p8z77-V LK ($95 after combo deal) is actually also a pretty good option, but I saw the Gigabyte -ud3h ($115 after combo deal) for less than I expected, so recommended that. MF, I've looked up the difference between the two boards you recommended, but I need your distilled version of the analysis. As long as I can get decent overclocking, (4.5, or near the beginning point of massive heat generation), and no critical slots missing, I'm good. (these boards come with tons of USB ports nowadays). Belial said the MSI g41 can do 4.5ghz, but it's close to its limit. i'm wondering how much of a safety margin there is around that level of OC. Just in case some summer days might push it over the edge. But a 4.3ghz minimum would be nice. | ||
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752
Australia1 Post
I am a DotA 2 player if it helps looking for not a max performance computer, just want to be able to dual screen, maybe in the future stream once Australia decides to get better internet connect. I want to build a completely new computer from scratch, (although I heard my case is decent, SLIGHTLY different, please tell me if it matters, but very similar to this. http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1173/coolermaster_cm690_ii_003.jpg) This is what I'm currently running on, It makes constant disconnects while I'm playing. http://i.imgur.com/KIjB0c3.png If you could save me some money, and just recommend upgrades, still usable parts. etc.it would be appreciated. Thanks. What is your budget? My budget will be about $900 AUD, but honestly, the cheaper the better. What is your resolution? I'm quite sure I am running at 1280x1024, but I plan on changing everything including the monitors (which is not in my budget) What are you using it for? (DotA2) Gaming, if possible in the future streaming. What is your upgrade cycle? Until it becomes annoying/unplayable, like right now where I D/C or am forced to close background applications. So anywhere between 2~4 years sounds alright. When do you plan on building it? ASAP/Next month. Do you plan on overclocking? Not really. Do you need an Operating System? Can I just download one? Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? Not sure what this really means, If I have extra cash while within my budget? Where are you buying your parts from? Local/MSY/Centrecom would be my first plans, I avoid online, but if necessary I will if I have to/get a good deal. | ||
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MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
On March 24 2013 19:52 waffling1 wrote: MF, I've looked up the difference between the two boards you recommended, but I need your distilled version of the analysis. As long as I can get decent overclocking, (4.5, or near the beginning point of massive heat generation), and no critical slots missing, I'm good. (these boards come with tons of USB ports nowadays). Belial said the MSI g41 can do 4.5ghz, but it's close to its limit. i'm wondering how much of a safety margin there is around that level of OC. Just in case some summer days might push it over the edge. But a 4.3ghz minimum would be nice. Honestly, this is where I'm just less knowledgeable than other posters. I've seen other people say they couldn't get more than 4.2/4.3ish with the MSI z77-g41. How high you can OC on it probably depends on how fast the CPU you get will go with the -g41's limited voltage options. Hot summer days usually aren't too much of a problem. 100 degrees Fahrenheit is only 38 degrees Celsius & computer parts get much hotter than that. I haven't seen any complaints about the -g41 failing (doesn't mean there aren't any). Presumably because the limited voltage options keeps you from overclocking to the point where the board would have trouble handling it. Between the Asus & the Gigabyte? Well again, my knowledge kind of stops at "I know the -ud3h is a higher quality board, but probably only in ways that won't matter to you." | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
Here is the mobo someone recommended. http://www.hardwareversand.de/DDR3/57526/Gigabyte Z77-D3H, Intel Z77, ATX.article Thanks. | ||
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