I watched from 3 minutes to 3.5 minutes. It was lagging so bad I stopped it. The video is commentated by Dustin and the esports guy. I'm downloading the video using Orbit and Grab++.
asks me to install some shady looking module when I go to that page ... It might be legit or it might be a key logger to steal all your beta keys... Will wait for the official thing
On June 19 2009 14:10 Famehunter wrote: asks me to install some shady looking module when I go to that page ... It might be legit or it might be a key logger to steal all your beta keys... Will wait for the official thing
no it doesnt.. u just go to the site and it starts streaming what are you talking about
On June 19 2009 14:10 Famehunter wrote: asks me to install some shady looking module when I go to that page ... It might be legit or it might be a key logger to steal all your beta keys... Will wait for the official thing
no it doesnt.. u just go to the site and it starts streaming what are you talking about
On June 19 2009 14:39 SoleSteeler wrote: Hmmm... to spoil myself now, or wait for the official one likely tomorrow.
Or, wait for the orbit kid to upload it, cos I'm guessing they would have quite a few people (to say the least) streaming at once and this 30 secounds bizz just an't doin it for me... Lol watched the drone's being microed in the first few minutes for like... ages now:p
The anti-gravity + warp-ray thing on the Queen was pretty neat; you saw it's health drop REALLY rapidly (like 50 damage/second) after 3-4~ seconds.
Warp in looks so strong... at the end there.
Mind controlling those two collosus was hilarious! Really won the zerg that battle.
Force field, as mentioned, is sick.
The nullifer looks pretty strong for its attack too. I thought it was mainly a caster?
Lastly, the phoenix was able to kill the lords pretty quick. Faster than a corsair I think.
edit: also you could hear the not-Dustin guy kinda laughing as he said "terrible, terrible damage" as if they are aware the community laughs about it too
From these battle reports it looks like massing just a particular unit or two will close to impossible if you want to win a game. Every mass has a good counter while variety and brain win the battles. Might be just a thing they are doing to promote the game and show off the different units though. But if its really like that it will make starcraft 2 last twice as long as starcraft with endless strategies and counters.
The same thought was actually going through my head the entire time. I saw the Collosus get Parasited I was like, wow wtf is this. Then I saw the warp in and was like, phew. 2 base zerg shouldn't be able to beat 2 base toss by the 15 minute mark if they want to stick to the core of the races imo >_>
On June 19 2009 15:22 Pape wrote: From these battle reports it looks like massing just a particular unit or two will close to impossible if you want to win a game. Every mass has a good counter while variety and brain win the battles. Might be just a thing they are doing to promote the game and show off the different units though. But if its really like that it will make starcraft 2 last twice as long as starcraft with endless strategies and counters.
I'm not sure if you think its bad or good - but tbh - for this being a C- level game at best it was actually exciting to watch. Seeing what the pros could muster up would be... =)
On June 19 2009 15:22 Pape wrote: From these battle reports it looks like massing just a particular unit or two will close to impossible if you want to win a game. Every mass has a good counter while variety and brain win the battles. Might be just a thing they are doing to promote the game and show off the different units though. But if its really like that it will make starcraft 2 last twice as long as starcraft with endless strategies and counters.
On June 19 2009 15:22 Pape wrote: From these battle reports it looks like massing just a particular unit or two will close to impossible if you want to win a game. Every mass has a good counter while variety and brain win the battles. Might be just a thing they are doing to promote the game and show off the different units though. But if its really like that it will make starcraft 2 last twice as long as starcraft with endless strategies and counters.
I'm not sure if you think its bad or good - but tbh - for this being a C- level game at best it was actually exciting to watch. Seeing what the pros could muster up would be... =)
Nope nope I think its great. More variety in build and I think alot more builds can lead to more competitive gameplay and even advancement for players with different skills to excel in different areas of the game. All good stuff in my opinion.
Man that was a really cool battle report. The mind control looked pretty OP though, as well as burrow. Then again force field and warp in was pretty powerful as well so I guess we'll have to wait and see with the beta!
i wanna know how the targeting with forcefield works. i wonder if you have two trilobytes selected and click and area to forcefield if the AI aligns them perfectly (say to block your choke) or if you have to manually do each one at a certain spot.
How do these Koreans manage to get this kind of stuff?
You'd think it would be leaked by some Blizzard dude's girlfriend's little brother from California or something but no...all the good leaks come from the other side of the world from Blizz HQ.
Anyway, just wasting some time while I wait for it to finish loading.
EDIT: I have to agree with all the comments about the nullifier. Looks very fun.
Also, did you guys notice that the drones have a little residual momentum when they turn? Look at the beginning when 2 drones were trying to fight off the probe and you see that when the probe turns, it keeps flowing in its original direction for a sec. It kinda looks like a fishtail in a car or truck on loose dirt. Anyway, I like it.
I can really see those Pheonixes really raping it up tho :\ Along with the phase prism, and warp ray not very easily snipable, I forsee a slight imbalance coming.. Time to ditch the corrupter and bring back the scourge please
protoss seems very powerful, although the zerg's + Show Spoiler +
use of infestors was awesome, MC'ing those colossi. i wonder if he got them on purpose because he scouted the double robo or if he chose to get them just to showcase them for the video
, but either way it was cool. warp-in seems like its goign to be extremely irritating, especially since the location of the warp in has it's pathing blocked.
Fuckin' sweet. Protoss looks really powerful with those new spells.
I'm glad to see that baneling unburrow ambush is a legit strategy, it was pulled off pretty good.
Anyone know the details on neural parasite? I kinda get the basics of it but this game changes so damn fast when you don't keep up with it obsessively anymore
On June 19 2009 16:28 Savio wrote: Just finished watching the whole thing.
That was simply amazing. Seriously it was incredibly fun to watch.
I wish there some higher tier units used.. in particular mutalisks
I may just be sounding like a whining baby here, but in every BR the zerg tend to uh...not play up to par as much as their opponent. We see a warp prisim used almost like it was nothing, yet no nydus worm.
I can pretty much say between the zerg in both BR I've seen the same main units everytime. Zerglings/Banelines and Roaches. Not to bash this BR at all, pvz in SC2 looks amazing, but they zerg players make it seem so...underwhelming.
On June 19 2009 16:28 Savio wrote: Just finished watching the whole thing.
That was simply amazing. Seriously it was incredibly fun to watch.
I wish there some higher tier units used.. in particular mutalisks
I may just be sounding like a whining baby here, but in every BR the zerg tend to uh...not play up to par as much as their opponent. We see a warp prisim used almost like it was nothing, yet no nydus worm.
I can pretty much say between the zerg in both BR I've seen the same main units everytime. Zerglings/Banelines and Roaches. Not to bash this BR at all, pvz in SC2 looks amazing, but they zerg players make it seem so...underwhelming.
Wait until next week where every game isn't poor sucker vs David Kim
On June 19 2009 16:28 Savio wrote: Just finished watching the whole thing.
That was simply amazing. Seriously it was incredibly fun to watch.
I wish there some higher tier units used.. in particular mutalisks
I may just be sounding like a whining baby here, but in every BR the zerg tend to uh...not play up to par as much as their opponent. We see a warp prisim used almost like it was nothing, yet no nydus worm.
I can pretty much say between the zerg in both BR I've seen the same main units everytime. Zerglings/Banelines and Roaches. Not to bash this BR at all, pvz in SC2 looks amazing, but they zerg players make it seem so...underwhelming.
Wait until next week where every game isn't poor sucker vs David Kim
Ya that is probably it. David Kim just seems to have better macro. Early game every BR seems it could go either way but Kim just understands the fundamental of important economy and macro. Watching him really made me appreciate a good use of MBS.
Oh man after watching that BR I want to play it so badly. Best BR so far in my opinion. Borrowed banelings are going to be such a pain if Protoss isn't careful, ambush left and right. Might have to stay in base until observer comes out. Mind controlling those Colossus was a great move. Warp in looks like a good move to harass mine lines. Looking forward to using forcefield from the Nullifier.
Going to watch that again now
On June 19 2009 17:06 Geo.Rion wrote: do you think manner-forcefield will be viable?
Depends how the minerals are placed, and it may take more than one for it to be effective.
EDIT - Thanks Huskythehusky for uploading to youtube
WOW, best BR so far. Both zerg and protoss abilities are fun, so it'll be hard to choose a race. Some nice moves from both sides. And yea, i want to play SC2 so much now.
On June 19 2009 16:28 Savio wrote: Just finished watching the whole thing.
That was simply amazing. Seriously it was incredibly fun to watch.
I wish there some higher tier units used.. in particular mutalisks
I may just be sounding like a whining baby here, but in every BR the zerg tend to uh...not play up to par as much as their opponent. We see a warp prisim used almost like it was nothing, yet no nydus worm.
I can pretty much say between the zerg in both BR I've seen the same main units everytime. Zerglings/Banelines and Roaches. Not to bash this BR at all, pvz in SC2 looks amazing, but they zerg players make it seem so...underwhelming.
You're correct... it seems that zerg aren't using the proper units at all, combined with Protosses absolutely insane mobility this is a dead zerg. There is no way protoss should have had more economy when the zerg had 3 bases... the zerg just wasn't really good at the macro.
I just find the protosses ability to warp wherever the hell they want with a floating warp prism without zerg scourge is going to be a bit of a problem. It'll force mutalisks every game at this rate.
I'm very worried about the fact that zerg doesn't have scourges :< 'blabla hydra great anti-air blabla'... But how the hell would the Zerg defend against that warp-in? I don't even think hydras were able to reach that... Scourges please <3
That was so cool. I wonder how easy it is to use blink and the force field, because David Kim seemed to use them pretty easily and the force fields went off simultaneously.
On June 19 2009 17:24 deathgod6 wrote: That was so cool. I wonder how easy it is to use blink and the force field, because David Kim seemed to use them pretty easily and the force fields went off simultaneously.
If you look very carefully you can see the unit selection. The group goes from having circles around them all to just having the front one having the circle then the blink goes off.
On June 19 2009 17:24 Clow wrote: I'm very worried about the fact that zerg doesn't have scourges :< 'blabla hydra great anti-air blabla'... But how the hell would the Zerg defend against that warp-in? I don't even think hydras were able to reach that... Scourges please <3
Maybe mutas can substitute for the mobility. What other air units does zerg have? guardians, broodlord, muta,..
On June 19 2009 17:24 Clow wrote: I'm very worried about the fact that zerg doesn't have scourges :< 'blabla hydra great anti-air blabla'... But how the hell would the Zerg defend against that warp-in? I don't even think hydras were able to reach that... Scourges please <3
Maybe mutas can substitute for the mobility. What other air units does zerg have? guardians, broodlord, muta,..
Broodlord is the new Guardian. Zerg also have Corruptors. It is a anti air flyer.
On June 19 2009 17:34 hyde wrote: In the first 2 minutes when obs has the Nexus selected, what is that icon next to the probe icon? I can't quite make out what it is.
Does anyone else think that the dark pylon's ability to make probes mine better might be slightly imbalanced in relation to the queen's spawn larvae ability?
For example, from what I know you can spend ~150 minerals (the cost of a queen I think) to allow yourself to basically have a dumbed down hatchery of sorts that can defend your base and spread creep, so with proper macro the queen is saving you maybe 150 minerals. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, or you have a different opinion on this.
However, at one point in the BR when they show drones/probes and mineral counts, we can see that David Kim has 40 probes vs 37/38 drones, yet he is mining around +1400 compared to the zerg's +1000. Kim is mining 30% more, with 2 more probes.
On June 19 2009 17:34 Suc wrote: Just one thing I noticed, this is an older build of sc2, it has the old design of spawning pool, so some things may have changed between then and now.
And since when could you get multiple queens?
woah.. ya.. whats up with that? this means the vid is over.. 4 months old?
On June 19 2009 17:39 Mazar wrote: Does anyone else think that the dark pylon's ability to make probes mine better might be slightly imbalanced in relation to the queen's spawn larvae ability?
For example, from what I know you can spend ~150 minerals (the cost of a queen I think) to allow yourself to basically have a dumbed down hatchery of sorts that can defend your base and spread creep, so with proper macro the queen is saving you maybe 150 minerals. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, or you have a different opinion on this.
However, at one point in the BR when they show drones/probes and mineral counts, we can see that David Kim has 40 probes vs 37/38 drones, yet he is mining around +1400 compared to the zerg's +1000. Kim is mining 30% more, with 2 more probes.
I think part of that is because the zerg expanded pretty slow, but so far protoss does seem a little OP with how much early control they get. I'm sure it will be changed a lot.
last i checked Corrupters only needed a lair, but the protoss build like one phoenix and one warp ray...guess the guy saw no need to go air. The killing blow was probably when the queens were all lost, without the extra larvae zerg couldn't keep up with both economy and unit production. When the late 3rd expansion was taken out the game was over.
still, GREAT moves by both players though. burrowed baneling ambushes should really keep protoss on their toes and force them to spread their units until observers. Infestors neural parasite is also much better than i had origionally thought. Hope blizzard decides to bring its other abilities up to par
again though we see a general lack of mobility and expansion from the zerg, though i think at the later stages of the game a nydus worm was impractical. Protoss had to many units at that point and could have warped in right on top of the spawning worm.
We already knew blink was awesome, but im very impressed with the nullifier. It seemed to to pretty good damage on top of its spell casting abilities. only one of them was shooting at an OL and it went down the half health real quick. Force field is amazing. Beta will tell us how to balance its energy cost/duration. I really like how the phoenix can not only be used as a corsair for OL hunting, but with anti-grav can also really hurt the zerg buy killing the queen's. Killing not only their pop cap, but also their source of extra larvea. Corsairs certainly couldn't do that.
best battle report by far...now just give us David Kim with the zerg so we can see what they can really do
On June 19 2009 17:43 -fj. wrote: Man, forcefield looks extremely powerful.. I'm betting after players get really good with it, it'll have to be nerfed somehow.
It looks like units can use their abilities a lot more often than in BW. I hope its the same for BCs, I wanna see yamato abused :D
Yeah, I agree about forcefield. One of it's defining features seems to be that it can be casted on units, which forces them to move out of the way, meaning there is no real way you to stop a protoss from walling anywhere. A good balance point to this would be to not allow this, and to only be able to forcefield where units are not standing I believe.
On June 19 2009 17:43 -fj. wrote: Man, forcefield looks extremely powerful.. I'm betting after players get really good with it, it'll have to be nerfed somehow.
It looks like units can use their abilities a lot more often than in BW. I hope its the same for BCs, I wanna see yamato abused :D
Yeah, I agree about forcefield. One of it's defining features seems to be that it can be casted on units, which forces them to move out of the way, meaning there is no real way you to stop a protoss from walling anywhere. A good balance point to this would be to not allow this, and to only be able to forcefield where units are not standing I believe.
Or just make it like a BW spell where it takes forever to charge and the unit typically only uses it once before it dies.
On June 19 2009 17:34 Suc wrote: Just one thing I noticed, this is an older build of sc2, it has the old design of spawning pool, so some things may have changed between then and now.
And since when could you get multiple queens?
woah.. ya.. whats up with that? this means the vid is over.. 4 months old?
I was wondering about this too... i thought that spawning pool was the old one.
On June 19 2009 17:45 lordmordor wrote: last i checked Corrupters only needed a lair, but the protoss build like one phoenix and one warp ray...guess the guy saw no need to go air. The killing blow was probably when the queens were all lost, without the extra larvae zerg couldn't keep up with both economy and unit production. When the late 3rd expansion was taken out the game was over.
still, GREAT moves by both players though. burrowed baneling ambushes should really keep protoss on their toes and force them to spread their units until observers. Infestors neural parasite is also much better than i had origionally thought. Hope blizzard decides to bring its other abilities up to par
again though we see a general lack of mobility and expansion from the zerg, though i think at the later stages of the game a nydus worm was impractical. Protoss had to many units at that point and could have warped in right on top of the spawning worm.
We already knew blink was awesome, but im very impressed with the nullifier. It seemed to to pretty good damage on top of its spell casting abilities. only one of them was shooting at an OL and it went down the half health real quick. Force field is amazing. Beta will tell us how to balance its energy cost/duration. I really like how the phoenix can not only be used as a corsair for OL hunting, but with anti-grav can also really hurt the zerg buy killing the queen's. Killing not only their pop cap, but also their source of extra larvea. Corsairs certainly couldn't do that.
best battle report by far...now just give us David Kim with the zerg so we can see what they can really do
That third expansion didn't seem that late. He built it as soon as he killed a protoss attack which is typical. You can't compare it to SC1 because there they Forge FE so you're free to take really fast 3 gas. That aside Protoss also has a hell of a lot more mobility now... a frightening amount really so taking a quick third seems almost like sure death.
Personally I don't care how many warp rays the guy built... anti air to kill them is mandatory. They are simply far too powerful to leave alone in the belief you could "control it" Their ability to hang over cliffs is just far too dangerous to leave alone. If they stay like this currently Mutalisks will be absolutely mandatory.
I can't shake the feeling that Protoss can simply move too damn fast all over the place. Even if you attempt to drop or something... they can just warp right on top of you. It gives them a seeming presence around the map, especially if they have air control. As far as i'm concerned there is no way a zerg is going to beat a protoss right now without having full air control, warp rays are too much of a threat.
On June 19 2009 17:17 Suc wrote: I am the only one that thinks this map looks a bit like paranoid android?
Haha yes, that was the first thing that crossed my mind when he started showing the map around. Definitely some direct influence there.
I like how they keep giving us clues that they follow pro games to some point. A map equal to paranoid android. Probe blocking expo. Drone hiding to build expo on BR2.
Wow! I'm very pleased with this BR! The Nullifier-Strategy was awesome, even might be a bit too strong. But most important it makes the game ENTERTAINING, that's what SC II needs! Great move Blizzard
On June 19 2009 18:29 GTR wrote: force field needs to be nerfed, like badly. is it on some cooldown only or something? needs to have its mana increased or something.
This. Higher Mana-Costs would be a good option. But don't worry it will be done in te Beta for sure! Also these Roaches vs Stalker Fights seemed a bit strange, Stalker are just owning them badly with their long range and high mobility. I wonder which other unit apart from Zerglings would be the best counter against Stalkers.
On June 19 2009 18:29 GTR wrote: force field needs to be nerfed, like badly. is it on some cooldown only or something? needs to have its mana increased or something.
Yea I was worried about voicing blankly "Force Field is OP as hell" on a BR report thread but I'll say it now.
Force field is OP as hell. Blocking chokes whenever the hell you want with what seemed to be impunity... however much the cooldown on Forcefield is it is not enough, that or it needs a higher mana cost.
On June 19 2009 18:29 Art.FeeL wrote: Zergs with mind control? LoL? and this games seems a bit like warcraft coz of the few units battling each others, where is macro, i need macro wars :D
Yeah that's what really troubles me about sc2 but then again it might look completely different when two pros play it the other thing I didnt like is that Protoss seemed soo much cooler than Zerg in my opinion. Banelings are cool but other than that...
Anyways pretty good BR, Protoss looking really cool, game generally looking good... gotta love that overlord deah animation!
On June 19 2009 18:29 GTR wrote: force field needs to be nerfed, like badly. is it on some cooldown only or something? needs to have its mana increased or something.
Yea I was worried about voicing blankly "Force Field is OP as hell" on a BR report thread but I'll say it now.
Force field is OP as hell. Blocking chokes whenever the hell you want with what seemed to be impunity... however much the cooldown on Forcefield is it is not enough, that or it needs a higher mana cost.
I did notice the protoss basically have full control over what the zerg was doing (blocking units/workers, lifting up queens, forcing them into chokes, etc).
Its basically CC straight from wow... not a good idea IMO if they do too much of it
I love these Battle Reports. Seeing the game in action is so much more satisfying than reading updates from Karune (not that those weren't appreciated :D)
Beta please. I can't wait to try and rush to Infestors! Whoo!
On June 19 2009 18:29 GTR wrote: force field needs to be nerfed, like badly. is it on some cooldown only or something? needs to have its mana increased or something.
Yea I was worried about voicing blankly "Force Field is OP as hell" on a BR report thread but I'll say it now.
Force field is OP as hell. Blocking chokes whenever the hell you want with what seemed to be impunity... however much the cooldown on Forcefield is it is not enough, that or it needs a higher mana cost.
I really don't see the point in worrying about balancing... blizzard isnt stupid
oh and zerg having a mind control that isnt even a mind control is completely stupid. How annoying would it be to have to ignore your own unit while it's attacking you because you're going to get it back in the next 30 seconds. I guess they were trying to make you make tough decisions with this but it's super annoying to have this type of thing in an rts the only thing worse would be free summons, which sc2 already had in one battlereport...
On June 19 2009 18:40 streampowered wrote: oh and zerg having a mind control that isnt even a mind control is completely stupid. How annoying would it be to have to ignore your own unit while it's attacking you because you're going to get it back in the next 30 seconds.
Ha kinda true, but maybe they're invincible in those 30 seconds
On June 19 2009 18:40 streampowered wrote: oh and zerg having a mind control that isnt even a mind control is completely stupid. How annoying would it be to have to ignore your own unit while it's attacking you because you're going to get it back in the next 30 seconds. I guess they were trying to make you make tough decisions with this but it's super annoying to have this type of thing in an rts the only thing worse would be free summons, which sc2 already had in one battlereport...
On June 19 2009 18:29 GTR wrote: force field needs to be nerfed, like badly. is it on some cooldown only or something? needs to have its mana increased or something.
Yea I was worried about voicing blankly "Force Field is OP as hell" on a BR report thread but I'll say it now.
Force field is OP as hell. Blocking chokes whenever the hell you want with what seemed to be impunity... however much the cooldown on Forcefield is it is not enough, that or it needs a higher mana cost.
I really don't see the point in worrying about balancing... blizzard isnt stupid
Played WoW lately?
I quit for a reason.
I never understood the "Don't worry don't worry it's just testing." Usually I wouldn't worry if I didn't have experience with WoW turning bad so fast.
Now the teams are obviously separate but you frankly can't disagree that protoss seemed to be more... I don't know... controlling? The protoss controlled the entire game. He attacked when he wanted, warped all over the place, did a THREE pronged attack, faster mining probes. It just seemed that their units did more to impact the battle field while zerg... well zerg had baneling ambushes. It just didn't have such a drastic effect.
Overall Protoss units just looked like they were plain more dynamic at every stage of the game. They were able to control the battlefield, shape it even, to suit their needs.
On June 19 2009 19:01 hyde wrote: He didn't use high temps either. I really wanted to see how much area psi storm covers
Yellow used psi storm against Sonkie at Blizzcon 2008. The Blizzcon 08 site has been taken down for some reason, but you can watch them on youtube.
Anyway, while a marvelous BR, the fact that progamers have yet to be featured is disappointing (Yellow vs Sonkie doesn't really count since Sonkie is a WC3 player). How awesome would it be to have, say, Bisu vs Jaedong instead?
Actually this report is disapointing on another side, the graphics.
I mean, there have been changes in Zerg building models (like the pool for exemple), and here, it's just the old model. Also, at the beggining, we see a dark pylon being built, look how the anniation suck, when it gets built, it just appear from nowhere.
I hate the whole "Player 1 just brought out X unit! He decimated Player 2! But Player 2 brought out Y unit! It's a perfect counter to unit X!"
The game looks too static where each unit has a perfect counter strategy. I know they're just demonstrating the new units, but if the game is anything like that, it's gonna be a battle of rock paper scissors.
Nullifier and its forcefield look stupid and imbalanced.
On June 19 2009 19:20 alien3456 wrote: I hate the whole "Player 1 just brought out X unit! He decimated Player 2! But Player 2 brought out Y unit! It's a perfect counter to unit X!"
The game looks too static where each unit has a perfect counter strategy. I know they're just demonstrating the new units, but if the game is anything like that, it's gonna be a battle of rock paper scissors.
Nullifier and its forcefield look stupid and imbalanced.
Still like 4months of balance =p and no game gets released with perfect balance.
all the spells and abilities displayed were eye candies and also made me feel that sc2 might be really fun to play!
couple pointers: it still seems a bit slow. from what i've heard before, this isnt the fastest right?
i think it is pointless to talk about balancing at this point, but I did notice few things. There are so much offensive weapons for both races. Maybe that's why we don't see drawn out, BIG armies dueling out in any of the battle reports. There are simply too many opportunities that a player doesn't have to just expand early and mass up. And battles seem to be dominated easily because there are many explosive, tide-changing units. This could be exciting but it could also be exploited by progamers I think. Progamers might come up with so many cheese tactics.
But then again, this battle report seems scripted to show off all the cool abilities in hindsight. Maybe it is too early to tell how players are even gonna play this out.
And maybe blizzard chose to play the game slower to make it easier to show how abilities are implemented.
So maybe one of the only definitive things is that these abilities are fucking COOL and we just have to wait and play and stop thinking too much T.T
Watched the game and I think stalker's blink cooldown needs to be longer. It's supposed to be used for harass imo, not for escaping every single zergling surround. They only die against melee units when the player does something else (like macro) and that's only an issue for slow players.
I also think queens were not able to fulfill their role as base defenders. On a second thought they failed big time.
Wow... the force field is like an early-game, highly spammable stasis field.
And it seems to me that the tech trees seem to be whole lot more diverse than starcraft? I guess that might explain why there are so many gases at each expo.
I'm not worried about balance and all that. What i'm worried about though is every unit having it's own special ability or abilities, which is pretty annoying. There can be no macro or massive armies when each unit has a special ability and each little shit can blow up or mind control or whatever.
Seriously, looking from a distance, the way the game's built now, there simply cannot be "macro wars".
On June 19 2009 20:11 z]Benny wrote: I'm not worried about balance and all that. What i'm worried about though is every unit having it's own special ability or abilities, which is pretty annoying. There can be no macro or massive armies when each unit has a special ability and each little shit can blow up or mind control or whatever.
Seriously, looking from a distance, the way the game's built now, there simply cannot be "macro wars".
Obviously you don't play enough terran...
On June 19 2009 19:18 MrRey wrote: Actually this report is disapointing on another side, the graphics.
I mean, there have been changes in Zerg building models (like the pool for exemple), and here, it's just the old model. Also, at the beggining, we see a dark pylon being built, look how the anniation suck, when it gets built, it just appear from nowhere.
Hmm that's not fair. Terran's units' abilities are somewhat more restricted (eg. siege, mines w/e) but compare that to being able to lift things up, and force field and every little unit having a special ability. It just seems very wrong to me right now. Hope i'm wrong.
I watched the HD version again, it's pretty cool. Though it's obviously scripted since the Z placed his banelings there and the commentator which is now Browden says "oh apparently not much of a surprise, he must've had an overlord somewhere". So either the game was scripted, or that damn korean hacks!
Also, I deeply hate the way roaches fire. It's 100% warcraft3. I hate warcraft3
Hmm that's not fair. Terran's units' abilities are somewhat more restricted (eg. siege, mines w/e) but compare that to being able to lift things up, and force field and every little unit having a special ability. It just seems very wrong to me right now. Hope i'm wrong.
Also, I deeply hate the way roaches fire. It's 100% warcraft3. I hate warcraft3
It's easy to dispatch units using a skill like anti-grav since they're also vulnerable.
Restricted? It seems you didn't have your mutas irradiated ever. It's like rendering your whole muta army useless if terran get it so early.
Roach projectiles are not 100% warcraft3. I don't know where you got that number.
What do you mean where i got that number? It's just my impression, that it looks a lot like warcraft 3. Also the zeal attack looks a lot like that.
Anyways, maybe it's just because this game was scripted and that's why it looks so weird. It gave me the impression that macro wars will be tough to achieve. Cause in this game for example 15 minutes into the game the Z had like 30 lings and nothing else - but i guess that was to showcase the Collossus or something. It might just be that i'm drawing pretty limited conclusions based on limited knowledge. But i don't think the game will be faster than this, i think this is the highest speed. Look at how fast the upgraded zerglings move, if they'd move any faster than that you couldn't even track them on your screen.
On June 19 2009 20:47 z]Benny wrote: What do you mean where i got that number? It's just my impression, that it looks a lot like warcraft 3. Also the zeal attack looks a lot like that.
If you have an opinion, don't put it in numbers. Numbers are for facts.
On June 19 2009 20:48 Lobbo wrote: Was this game on fastest?
On June 19 2009 20:47 z]Benny wrote: But i don't think the game will be faster than this, i think this is the highest speed. Look at how fast the upgraded zerglings move, if they'd move any faster than that you couldn't even track them on your screen.
Also the probe speed looks... normal. I think it'd be weird if they went faster than that.
* First time I've seen Nullifier, Warp Prism and Void Ray in game. I like it! * They didn't include the new infestor model. What a shame.. * What the heck is this "Mentaling" ?!?!? * Dustin is talking crazier every Battle Report. Really. That's scary. * They had this new Dark Pylon (or Obelisk?) mechanic, but they didn't talk about it. What a pity! * Two thumbs up for the "Terrible Terrible Damage". =)
Disappointed it was another game of attack move some units while opponent defends with appropriate unit and counters, attacking with those units only to lose them to the counter of those etc etc repeat for 15 minutes
Also Dustin Browder is fucking awful at this. You are one of the games designers, please give us insight into the why and how of gameplay decisions instead of trying to hype insignificant shit at all times. I'd love for him to just calm down and approach these things in the form of a developer commentary like the ones Valve did with HL2 Lost Coast
Looks good, but i think they should include options to downgrade the visual effects, like the spells, the physic effects and maybe the tileset textures, they look very detailed and too heavy on the eyes causing distraction, not to mention it's hard to differentiate spells in larger battles.
On June 19 2009 21:17 Manaldski wrote: Looks good, but i think they should include options to downgrade the visual effects, like the spells, the physic effects and maybe the tileset textures, they look very detailed and too heavy on the eyes causing distraction, not to mention it's hard to differentiate spells in larger battles.
what are you talking about? of course you are going to have the options to run the game in low settings
Can't we use force fields like manner pylons... then I had another more imba thought..
what is preventing the protoss from force fielding the entire zerg drone line? trapping all the drones. That's like constant stasis that will halt the zerg economy like crazy! imbaaaa
On June 19 2009 20:47 z]Benny wrote: What do you mean where i got that number? It's just my impression, that it looks a lot like warcraft 3. Also the zeal attack looks a lot like that.
Anyways, maybe it's just because this game was scripted and that's why it looks so weird. It gave me the impression that macro wars will be tough to achieve. Cause in this game for example 15 minutes into the game the Z had like 30 lings and nothing else - but i guess that was to showcase the Collossus or something. It might just be that i'm drawing pretty limited conclusions based on limited knowledge. But i don't think the game will be faster than this, i think this is the highest speed. Look at how fast the upgraded zerglings move, if they'd move any faster than that you couldn't even track them on your screen.
Every single game of SC2 I played a half year ago was macro wars That doesn't have to mean anything tho, just saying. I had an awesome game vs a zerg were I had like 30 tanks and lots of marine / medivac vs him maxed with ultralisks and hydras / lurkers. Totally awesome.
On June 19 2009 21:42 viletomato wrote: hmm I was thinking...
Can't we use force fields like manner pylons... then I had another more imba thought..
what is preventing the protoss from force fielding the entire zerg drone line? trapping all the drones. That's like constant stasis that will halt the zerg economy like crazy! imbaaaa
Well your not going to just waltz into his base and cast it. Thats like saying psi storming the mineral lines is imba. You have to get there first.
On June 19 2009 21:42 WiljushkA wrote: they are those things that spawn when a zerg building is killed, and live only a short while. therefore, the progress bar counting down.
On June 19 2009 21:42 viletomato wrote: hmm I was thinking...
Can't we use force fields like manner pylons... then I had another more imba thought..
what is preventing the protoss from force fielding the entire zerg drone line? trapping all the drones. That's like constant stasis that will halt the zerg economy like crazy! imbaaaa
Well your not going to just waltz into his base and cast it. Thats like saying psi storming the mineral lines is imba. You have to get there first.
On June 19 2009 21:42 WiljushkA wrote: they are those things that spawn when a zerg building is killed, and live only a short while. therefore, the progress bar counting down.
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about those. Good call
Was just going to say this o_O One thing is tho that those warp rays or whatever their called seemed to be so fast and come so early compared to a high templar + storm upgrade + shuttle in BW. But yeah, maybe when good players play you cannot go warp ray tech that early or die.
You quitting means nothing. I resubscribed for a reason.
Pure crazyness.
I can one up you by saying my number 6 world Glory of the Raider Heroic guild disbanded and quit because Ulduar was a joke as was the rest of WoTLK.
Yea enough of that though, it's pointless. It just amuses that people have such immense faith in the current Blizzard as if they're the same company that made original SC WC3 and WoW. They aren't :p That's why people are so damn nervous.
On June 19 2009 21:42 Zoler wrote: Every single game of SC2 I played a half year ago was macro wars That doesn't have to mean anything tho, just saying. I had an awesome game vs a zerg were I had like 30 tanks and lots of marine / medivac vs him maxed with ultralisks and hydras / lurkers. Totally awesome.
arent most sc1 games macro games nowdays anyway? nullifiers seem a little strong
Jesus Christ protoss has so much control straight from the start of the game. Probe scout/harass as always, nulli damage & blocks, stalker speed & blinks, Phase prism, Dark Pylon etc.
Why do nulli do so much damage? I mean the constant blocks are fucking brutal enough. They shouldn't even have any damage at all imo, AND they shoot air. Phoenix looked really fast and has that somewhat cheap tractor beam lift. (It didn't show but the 2 air units harassed for a good while probably killing queens while other stuff happened). Stalkers can blink defend and buy huge amounts of time, then when you are weakened you can not excape because they will blink chase and just rape your force (lucky for him he had burrow and P didn't have obs). I don't think phase prism should be allowed to warp in on ooze, and did it deploy on space, that seems kind of cheap. It's one thing to drop units anywhere because you are limited and need to buy transports, but endless warp in is a really really steep and fast slippery slope. That map looked pretty bad for zerg. And probably bad for Protoss in TvP.
PS- The dual gas mechanic is bad, especially since zerg loses a worker!
Also, is it just me or did it seem like the game is way faster. Units/Bldgs are built faster and can move around the map much faster/easier.
I don't really like the commentators, I know that there are casuals who will play but Browder just dumbs it down a bit too much, and he doesn't have the voice for e-sports commentation.
On June 19 2009 21:42 viletomato wrote: hmm I was thinking...
Can't we use force fields like manner pylons... then I had another more imba thought..
what is preventing the protoss from force fielding the entire zerg drone line? trapping all the drones. That's like constant stasis that will halt the zerg economy like crazy! imbaaaa
Well your not going to just waltz into his base and cast it. Thats like saying psi storming the mineral lines is imba. You have to get there first.
Yeah, but Nullifiers are tier 1 units, while Templars - 3
The commentary was enthusiastic as always, gotta love the TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE!
Nullifiers seem too good, like 4 of them killed a roach in a second and the forcefield was insane too. Is Smartcasting still in the game or did David Kim manually forcefield twice each time 2 appeared side-by-side?
On June 19 2009 21:42 Zoler wrote: Every single game of SC2 I played a half year ago was macro wars That doesn't have to mean anything tho, just saying. I had an awesome game vs a zerg were I had like 30 tanks and lots of marine / medivac vs him maxed with ultralisks and hydras / lurkers. Totally awesome.
arent most sc1 games macro games nowdays anyway? nullifiers seem a little strong
The point is I answered to some guy saying he never thought there would be any macro wars in SC2
Boring D+ Back&Forth-battle game. This does not look like starcraft at all, just tiny scripted battles with cute micro usage. I want a macro-heavy game with huge XAXAXAing battles apm 250+ expanding whole map knowing how to multitask. This is seriously like watching a noob replay... it's not exciting and because of that I am having a really hard time appreciating what is displayed. I FEEL HOAXED! :<
Perhaps this just means I want to play the fucking game and show those blizzard nubs how dis sh*t is goin' 2 get balanZd!
On June 19 2009 22:18 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: Boring D+ Back&Forth-battle game. This does not look like starcraft at all, just tiny scripted battles with cute micro usage. I want a macro-heavy game with huge XAXAXAing battles apm 250+ expanding whole map knowing how to multitask. This is seriously like watching a noob replay... it's not exciting and because of that I am having a really hard time appreciating what is displayed. I FEEL HOAXED! :<
Perhaps this just means I want to play the fucking game and show those blizzard nubs how dis sh*t is goin' 2 get balanZd!
ya cuz starcraft was a big macro games right from the start?
economic focused play is alot more dangerous until the game gets very fleshed out, as theres any number of ways you can die and you have to know how to deal with each of them in order to power safely. much easier to attempt to control the game yourself through aggressive play.
On June 19 2009 21:42 viletomato wrote: hmm I was thinking...
Can't we use force fields like manner pylons... then I had another more imba thought..
what is preventing the protoss from force fielding the entire zerg drone line? trapping all the drones. That's like constant stasis that will halt the zerg economy like crazy! imbaaaa
Well your not going to just waltz into his base and cast it. Thats like saying psi storming the mineral lines is imba. You have to get there first.
Yeah, but Nullifiers are tier 1 units, while Templars - 3
Yes I see where you are coming from, but my point was that you will have units to try to prevent nullifiers from getting into your base.
lol, what is with all these people saying boring, low skill,scripted etc.
Would you expect them to have perfectly tailored mechanics and build order and de up for 10-15 minutes for some stupid macro push to GG? How is that entertaining at all. How does this look scripted? If it was scripted then Browder and Simpson wouldn't suck at commentating.
on a related note, I am curious to see how TvT plays out now. I don't think it will rely so much on tanks anymore with maurader presence.
However, I do agree that Browder and the other dude are bad commentators. You could compare them to Klazart or some other youtube commentators who try to be enthusiastic and fumble up words and say worthless stuff that doesn't even need to be said over and over. It would be worlds better if they slowed down and just calmy talked analytically about what is going on in the game.
Think of it like this, anyone who has never seen the BR will be able to do the commenting they did after watching it once or twice. That same person will never be able to talk about what could have happened or what a player should do because they have no idea what anything is besides what they see happening. Browder and the other guy are the only ones in a position to cast like that and they fail to take advantage of it.
Browder was saying A TON OF DAMAGE all the time. I think the other one was saying terrible terrible damage. Right?
I hope you're right Zoler about the macro. And here's to hoping we're just drawing conclusions based on total noobs playing the game, since if you'd see big fat noobs playing SC now i guess it would look pretty shitty as well.
On June 19 2009 21:42 viletomato wrote: hmm I was thinking...
Can't we use force fields like manner pylons... then I had another more imba thought..
what is preventing the protoss from force fielding the entire zerg drone line? trapping all the drones. That's like constant stasis that will halt the zerg economy like crazy! imbaaaa
Well your not going to just waltz into his base and cast it. Thats like saying psi storming the mineral lines is imba. You have to get there first.
Yeah, but Nullifiers are tier 1 units, while Templars - 3
The zerg player made his 3rd hatchery before he started making zerglings.
On June 19 2009 22:22 CharlieMurphy wrote: on a related note, I am curious to see how TvT plays out now. I don't think it will rely so much on tanks anymore with maurader presence.
From what I've seen so far it looks like dropship play with tanks, and alot of thors and battlecruisers. EDIT - just to clarify when I said "from what I've seen" I meant from really really old SC2 videos
On June 19 2009 22:22 CharlieMurphy wrote: on a related note, I am curious to see how TvT plays out now. I don't think it will rely so much on tanks anymore with maurader presence.
From what I've seen so far it looks like dropship play with tanks, and alot of thors and battlecruisers.
TT Beta testers will have so much work to do if we want a balanced game. Cant even imagine all those new stuff (force field, warp prism, stalker blink) in hands of a real gamer.
I think this game would have been less one sided with a more competent zerg player. As was already mentioned, he waited until his third hatch before lings. Then once all three expansions were up and running he had still only teched to roaches.
Maybe the zerg tech tree isn't finished yet, maybe this was played on an old version (the new infestor model wasn't used), maybe the zerg player really did just suck ass....
The commentators were trying to make this game seem more exciting than it really was.
Warp in looks a bit powerful if you have good economy its like you can use recall with a shuttle that its not limited to energy or is it ? With the scourge gone how are you suppose to defend your bases against tons of warp - ined units at diffrent locations ? You either have to have tons of sunkens at each base or stationing a big part of your army at one base . In a second he teleported 7 stalkers and after that 5 immortals and good number of zealots . I don't like this it makes the protoss a more mobile and quicker re-inforcing race then the zerg .... Looks like there will be more protoss players in SC 2 then in SC 1 based on this battle reports . I myself am thinking from switching to terran from zerg , but will see after the beta . Also with the force field it looks like surrounding is out of the question .
Also i like how they highlighted terrans and protoss units , but come on is burrow the only useful thing the zerg has ? Mind control looks stupid if you ask me . I didn't see any micro intensive stuff from the zerg while the protoss was using spells at will and harrasment i don't know if its because of smartcasting or something , but the zerg race looked bad from this battle reports . I can't wait to see some real games , because like people said this looks scripted as hell .
that was a cool game.. I just feel that the zerg could have won if he double expanded (put a hatchery in another expo). I really like the neuro thing. It was helping alot, maybe if he went fast infestor
Cool to see the infestors and nullifers in action hadn't watched much recently and didn't see them play out yet, im sure the balance in this game is atrocious overall right now but i'm still excited haha
I'm not seeing the "swarm" aspect of zerg represented at all, that's probably what concerns me the most. In screenshots we see huge amounts of zerg units but in these games they seem to have unit numbers comparable to their opponent. Granted they have 2/2.5 bases, but I am still concerned by the relatively small size of the zerg armies I have been seeing in actual games.
I know this shit looks scripted as hell, but at the same time it showcases all the thought they've put into the game to add depth so whatever I'll take it. I think everything is still relative, their play style might be completely outdated once people start playing, just have to wait and see. I think one base play could be way more effective, but they again try to show off units and what they can do.
On June 19 2009 23:01 Alizee- wrote: BR3 Is out, June 26th Beta incoming!
I know this shit looks scripted as hell, but at the same time it showcases all the thought they've put into the game to add depth so whatever I'll take it. I think everything is still relative, their play style might be completely outdated once people start playing, just have to wait and see. I think one base play could be way more effective, but they again try to show off units and what they can do.
Everyone keeps saying that zerg should have gotten a 3rd, but as was, the zerg had a hard enough time holding back the protoss the whole game, just imagine if he had tried to expand, he would have been stomped down.
i think fundamentally macroing and therefore massing is always possible.
as long as one player depends on opponents' units' travel time, terrain advantage, and static defense to maximize economy, there are going to be opportunities to play a macro intensive game.
It's simple. Don't move out and mass. It's going to happen in SC2, unless static defense becomes shit and transport mechanisms like warping become way too efficient. The mobile warping thing is probably really expensive.
But I don't think it's gonna be that one sided. And while there are a lot of new abilities, these can be used defensively. For example, if nullifier existed in starcraft, protoss can use the block and they'll have much easier time defending against those FUCKING ANNOYING all-in ling or hydra builds. And same with zerg, if you have a few banelings hanging around, it's gonna be tough for toss to get a timing rush (notice how some battles in this report just disappeared in seconds?)
In fact, as someone pointed out, it seems to take less time to build units and grow economically. This means more money = more imba since money can be quickly translated to units. I think we saw this in the battle report when zerg player DOMINATED last couple battles and still got OWNED...
On June 19 2009 23:28 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm officially 100% sold on this game.
I was worried Neural Parasite wouldn't be that great, but it seems to be fairly cheap and useful. Force Fields are fantastic.
Honestly, making a list of what's good is too long, there was really nothing to complain about!
Definitely fun to watch, yeah.
It's actually kind of cool to see the game in this stage when clearly there is little or no knowledge about what each match up is really about. This was almost like a word association game: one player would build a couple of X units, and the other one would go, okay well I better build a couple of those. Granted, it was a BR and they're probably trying to put as many units on display as possible.
That was really awesome to watch despite the only small army sizes again probably because their macro sucks or w/e it was really fun to watch. Can't wait for beta GIEF ALREADY TY
Maybe force fields would be a bit more balanced if they were destroyable? Say like, 125 HP maybe?
Also please stop saying the game was scripted. I think this looked the least scripted of all; however, they probably do encourage them to make use of the smoke screens etc. But it's not like they say, "okay, you make a 2 collosus and he'll mind control them to kill your zeals, OKAY?"
though honestly, i'm tired of you people bitching about balance. you know how long the first sc took before it became "perfect"? give it a rest people.
Also, for people complaining about some animations, I noticed them too. However, we're still in alpha (not beta yet!) so it's not like the game is 100% done. You can notice it when a drone makes a building, it doesn't "expand" but rather appears instantly. Not a big deal in an alpha build.
And they just HAD to use "terrible terrible damage" at least once.Haha xD Pretty great game, definetely THE best of all the BRs.
It seems they CAN release these things quite fast if they want to. It also seems that MAYBE they didn't rehearse it like previously, as I remember Browder making a mistake when Stalkers were chasing roaches and Browder said "Those stalkers are chasing those protoss forces" at about 10:05. That's good too
This was a great match! It's good to see that their trying to bring their game up a little more. I'm also glad that their not playing like pro's tho. The less macro they achieve the better everything can be explained by the commentators.
Also, by having smaller armies and playing with a slightly 'scissors, paper, rock' unit countering system like they obviously have been in all the BR's, they allow the commentators to really highlight each unit.
If they were to mass, or even use more types of units in each attack attempting to commentate this to the general public would be a bit complex, or at least less detailed verbally then we are seeing on screen.
Its really cool to see a completely different type of game of pvz. Not even one HT built, and the opening BO with zeal+nullifiers was really cool to watch. And I really really liked the micro that was going on here. I literally got so excited seeing those baneling explode like 8 zeals, and those collosus being mind controlled. I am now sure this game is gonna rock! I think the zerg player couldve been better, but still, it was an awesome game with some really interesting strategic events.
Matt Cooper's not playing anymore lol gg. Finally they make a BR worthwhile to watch. Loved the infestor's mind control and the banelings acting practically like temporary reavers. I can see there's gonna be strategy involving overlords dropping banelings in economies a little bit disappointed about the absence of mutalisks and hydralisks though.
Would zerg have been able to win if they stuck to old builds? i.e. hydralisks, mutas, and lurks instead of mass lings, roaches, queens and infestors? I think so. First of, phase prism drop action would have been impossible with hydras and mutas roaming around the map. Second, the Phoenix could have been stopped from hunting down overlords with mutas and hydras. Toss would have been forced to go the old way too.
Damn it, I keep on watching the game, It just so awesome, I'm itching to play the game already, BLIZZARD open beta plz, like 1 month before the actualy release would be nice. ^^
On June 20 2009 00:33 No_eL wrote: nullifier seems imba, infestors too XD
maybe 3 or 4 years to be a balanced game?
I agree... Infestors didn't seem too imba just because I know if you have detectors you could probably kill them pretty easily. But those walls that the nullifier puts up that early game seems like it could end games so fast.... if a zerg gets a fast expo and has his lings outside and guy runs up 2 zealots and a nullifier and blocks ramp with that prism thing while zealot goes to town on drones.... just seems a lil imba. I like the idea I think the ability itself is cool and not too imabalanced alone but the fact that he casted so many.... Needs a much longer cool down or to require much more energy.
heh heh just about done watching it...it's kindof obvious that we got a newb playing an experienced player...which is fine i suppose... at any rate in response to the destructible rock episode...someone talking about hacking someone else talking about overlord...uhmm i think they just had the same idea at almost the same time, which was to break down the rocks and do a sneak attack.
edit: just read above posts...oh yeah a burrowed unit would explain that obviously.
anyway...after watching it and thinking about the nullifiers, i think they're cool but i think the ramps could be a bit bigger.
Thanks for uploading the video on youtube! The match was pretty exciting. And maybe that prism block thing could be balanced if that ability were researched, perhaps requiring some later tech. That way no zealots + nulifier ramp block rush would be possible.
Still disappointed that we didn't see any zerg air. And wtf, why the protoss didn't kill any drones with those flying units? it's like he got them just to show the gravitation pull thing killing the queen and then they just disappear. What happened to trying to kill the enemy's economy?
On June 20 2009 01:00 JohnBall wrote: Thanks for uploading the video on youtube! The match was pretty exciting. And maybe that prism block thing could be balanced if that ability were researched, perhaps requiring some later tech. That way no zealots + nulifier ramp block rush would be possible.
Still disappointed that we didn't see any zerg air. And wtf, why the protoss didn't kill any drones with those flying units? it's like he got them just to show the gravitation pull thing killing the queen and the, they just disappear. What happened to trying to kill the enemy's economy?
I think it died to the queen when he was busy defending vs the counter attack.
one other thing that i noticed is some people commenting on not seeing a swarm of zerg...as i said he wasn't an experienced player, if he had been, he would've realized that queens are not such a great attack unit...and he would've kept them at the hatcheries to make more drones. as it was his drone count was really low.
all that being said, i think it's safe to say that david kim has probably gone easy on all of his opponents so far.
At 12:20 you can see him click on a burrowed zergling by the rocks, which is how he knew they were coming from the rocks.
From the BNET forums. I confirmed this, there really is a zergling there - they even click on it.
Don't think this means scripted, the observer for this game will have been clicking through a replay, not a live game. It was most likely just the cue for Dustin and Matt to begin talking about and setting up the eventual baneling surprise.
On June 20 2009 01:00 JohnBall wrote: Thanks for uploading the video on youtube! The match was pretty exciting. And maybe that prism block thing could be balanced if that ability were researched, perhaps requiring some later tech. That way no zealots + nulifier ramp block rush would be possible.
Still disappointed that we didn't see any zerg air. And wtf, why the protoss didn't kill any drones with those flying units? it's like he got them just to show the gravitation pull thing killing the queen and the, they just disappear. What happened to trying to kill the enemy's economy?
I think it died to the queen when he was busy defending vs the counter attack.
On June 20 2009 00:33 FrozenArbiter wrote: People saying the rock-break was scripted:
At 12:20 you can see him click on a burrowed zergling by the rocks, which is how he knew they were coming from the rocks.
From the BNET forums. I confirmed this, there really is a zergling there - they even click on it.
Don't think this means scripted, the observer for this game will have been clicking through a replay, not a live game. It was most likely just the cue for Dustin and Matt to begin talking about and setting up the eventual baneling surprise.
I'm saying it's NOT scripted. Meh, edited the original post to be more clear.
On June 20 2009 01:00 JohnBall wrote: Thanks for uploading the video on youtube! The match was pretty exciting. And maybe that prism block thing could be balanced if that ability were researched, perhaps requiring some later tech. That way no zealots + nulifier ramp block rush would be possible.
Still disappointed that we didn't see any zerg air. And wtf, why the protoss didn't kill any drones with those flying units? it's like he got them just to show the gravitation pull thing killing the queen and the, they just disappear. What happened to trying to kill the enemy's economy?
I think it died to the queen when he was busy defending vs the counter attack.
The queen died to that ray thingy
There was a second queen, you saw it come up the ramp before they switched focus to the protoss expo.
On June 20 2009 01:16 BigSausage wrote: the warp prism is just too cheap, making powerful toss units super mobile, then it is basically guaranteed gg for z.
No that's not why he lost. Sure it was the finishing blow, but based on what I've seen of SC2 zerg macro works the same way. This means that the zerg player would have needed to have powered drones at least once to win -.- However, I never saw him do that. Essentially he was getting further and further behind the whole game. Also, just like in the ZvT if zerg is even on bases I doubt it is a good thing in SC2.
Did anyone else notice that Protoss opened 1 gate tech and had a crazy economy though? That pylon buff thing is powerful!
HELP!!! there is a unit clicked on that i couldent see but i got a screen shot of it
http://tinypic.com/r/2vlk1h3/5 it was near the end almost right before he got killed. They killed the hatchery and they spawned i think. is it that thing that i have heard about that when a building dies creatures spawn out to defend or something? it says mantaling, any idea's people???
They are the units that come out of zerg buildings when they die. If you go back in the video just a little bit you can see the hatchery die and his selection get smaller and change to the Mantaling. They look sick though... I wish they were a regular unit =D
I think the rays that shoot from the Stalkers and Phoenix look really weak - like poking their enemies with toothpicks. Maybe it's just because the animation is slow, but they just feel weak. Although BW didn't have great resolution, the shots from a goon just feel like there is some power associated with it when it hits its target - it's easy to believe that it was causing some damage.
I see the units shooting in SC2, and for the most part in my mind I don't seem to register that damage is being dealt from the shooters. Other than that, it's shaping up to be a rather entertaining game.
The mantaling was previously called the "broodling". We've known about them for a little while, but they haven't got much attention. You can find one description in this thread. Where the person says:
- Broodlings - they have 20 life points, but they look bigger and stronger than Zerglings. My units were suddenly dead when they were attacking buildings at a close range.
I thought you could only get one queen, but I guess they changed that again from multiple to one to multiple. The air lift attack combo thing was awesome and just goes to show I don't think anything is a cookie cutter ability, lots of possibilities for creative play.
As for my June 26th assumption, well two factours: one was the June 19th get your b.net accounts ready for certain press sites and two the 3rd battle report is now out. Which means the press will play it, give their thoughts then they'll come out with beta on the 26th, I'll probably be wrong, but I have a hunch.
On June 20 2009 01:38 Alizee- wrote: I thought you could only get one queen, but I guess they changed that again from multiple to one to multiple. The air lift attack combo thing was awesome and just goes to show I don't think anything is a cookie cutter ability, lots of possibilities for creative play.
As for my June 26th assumption, well two factours: one was the June 19th get your b.net accounts ready for certain press sites and two the 3rd battle report is now out. Which means the press will play it, give their thoughts then they'll come out with beta on the 26th, I'll probably be wrong, but I have a hunch.
If you think about it, Zerg would be at a pretty big disadvantage if they could only make one Queen, since both the Protoss and Terran will be able to make multiple Obelisks and CC's that can call down MULEs.
Why the fuck do so many people care that it's probably not a high level game. It's just meant to be a cool way of doing a gameplay video and show off the game. Quit being so damn critical of the skill. It's not THAT bad anyways. Enjoy the battle reports for what they are.
I started watching and though "damn, this is cool," but as the game went on... I'm seriously afraid for the game now. Forcefield is entirely too powerful, especially for that early in the game. Hell, nulifiers in general looked to do far too much damage and have too much utility for a t1 unit. Look at how powerful getting a good stasis on the ramp is in PvT or PvP, now you can do that less than 5 minutes into the game, repeatedly and with no need for units to be stasised? Warp in give far too much mobility, especially for when you can get it. Parasite looks rather OP as well, though less so because you don't have it so quickly. And everything looks far too spamable. Blink micro is cool but being able to just spam it like that was ridiculous. Even forcefield wouldn't be so bad if you only had the energy to do it once but it was dropped almost constantly. They need to give this to some pros, or even some 300+apm amateur players and i'm pretty sure the stuff they'll pull with these units will blow their minds.
On June 19 2009 22:22 CharlieMurphy wrote: on a related note, I am curious to see how TvT plays out now. I don't think it will rely so much on tanks anymore with maurader presence.
However, I do agree that Browder and the other dude are bad commentators. You could compare them to Klazart or some other youtube commentators who try to be enthusiastic and fumble up words and say worthless stuff that doesn't even need to be said over and over. It would be worlds better if they slowed down and just calmy talked analytically about what is going on in the game.
Although both klaz and browder are examples of bad casters, the thing is also that there is no metagame (that we/possibly they are aware of) in SC2. So there's even less to say than usual.
How does marauder impact TvT? I wonder if T is completed crippled/forced to turtle early game now or if marauder is enough to let them move out. The immediate t1 units that T has don't look especially compelling (marauder from acad, bike from fact).
On June 20 2009 02:16 naventus wrote: How does marauder impact TvT? I wonder if T is completed crippled/forced to turtle early game now or if marauder is enough to let them move out. The immediate t1 units that T has don't look especially compelling (marauder from acad, bike from fact).
Well, the Marauder (according to the last known info) do 14 damage + 6 vs. mechanical units (so 20) plus the slow effect. And they cost 100/25, which is pretty cheap considering they have 125 HP. Considering they can be healed by Medivacs (I'm 99% sure, at least) they will be pivotal in TvT.
People...it's called balance work; and it's why the good Lord gave us Beta.
You know, Beta? The 6 month period in which the public plays the game constantly, and the game designers do nothing but work on balance? Yeah?
During the current Alpha stage, the designers have been trying to pack in all the cool and fun stuff they can think of, while also providing various ways to to nerf and/or buff individual abilities and units as needed. What matters at this stage is not whether a particular unit or ability is balanced, but whether it is balanceable. If there's an ability like Black Hole that is simply hideously overpowered, with really no way of nerfing it without simply changing how it works outright, then that ability is unbalanceable, and should be removed. But something like forcefield is eminently balanceable, since it has built into it various ways for Blizzard to nerf and buff it as needed: energy cost of the ability, Nullifier mineral and gas cost, size and duration of the forcefield itself, etc.
This, in brief, is what Blizzard has been trying to do throughout Alpha--create fun and cool abilities and units that are also going to be balanceable in Beta. Obviously, they've been trying to do their best to balance the game as well, but it'll take Beta for them to really get to the nitty-gritty of balance work. In other words, pretty much all of the abilities and units that are supposedly OverPowered (TM) now (and this from a single low-level game? Heck, go watch the latest Stork versus Yellow match, and tell me that Protoss mobility and Reaver/shuttle don't seem overpowered, or the famous Gomtv Jaedong > Flash 3:0 and tell me Mutalisks don't seem totally imba) have various things built in to them that will allow the Blizzard designers to nerf and buff them as needed throughout Beta. Balancing the game obviously is going to be a massive undertaking-- as the designers have acknowledged--but its definitely achievable, and Blizzard is already off to a good start for an Alpha build.
So can we all please stop whining about it?
P.S: But, yes, the Battle report was cool. I enjoyed it.
In my zergest opinion: - infestors are boring, scrap mindcontrol, give it some GORILLA warfare ability like plague or the old building infest - give scourge back or some other unit able to stop prisms (corruptors blow), besides mutalisks, because I don't think hydralisks can hit them that far.
balancing: - make nullifiers unable to attack air, and nerf forcefield a little - nerf blink, 20 seconds cooldown at least
early units in this game has a lot of abilities, probably more so than wc3. i think every unit for protoss except the zealot have some sort of command ability.
On June 20 2009 02:32 Captain Peabody wrote: People...it's called balance work; and it's why the good Lord gave us Beta.
People have a right to be skeptical / worried, though. Remember this is the same company that brought us the wonderful balance of Ret pallies on wotlk release after the entirety of the community told them how unbalanced they were for the whole duration of beta, and the balance of all of season 5 while people continuously pointed out the exact things that needed to change. Its not the same team of course, but its still the same company and also not the team that brought us BW. I honestly hope they balance it quickly but keep in mind where the game is coming from.
On June 20 2009 02:03 Idle wrote: I started watching and though "damn, this is cool," but as the game went on... I'm seriously afraid for the game now. Forcefield is entirely too powerful, especially for that early in the game. Hell, nulifiers in general looked to do far too much damage and have too much utility for a t1 unit. Look at how powerful getting a good stasis on the ramp is in PvT or PvP, now you can do that less than 5 minutes into the game, repeatedly and with no need for units to be stasised? Warp in give far too much mobility, especially for when you can get it. Parasite looks rather OP as well, though less so because you don't have it so quickly. And everything looks far too spamable. Blink micro is cool but being able to just spam it like that was ridiculous. Even forcefield wouldn't be so bad if you only had the energy to do it once but it was dropped almost constantly. They need to give this to some pros, or even some 300+apm amateur players and i'm pretty sure the stuff they'll pull with these units will blow their minds.
Uhm... You see, there a little issue with the game NOT BEING EVEN IN BETA YET.
Im sorry for the nerd rage but come on, i cant believe the amount of whining in this thread.
-Of course is a low level game, this are not progamers.
-Of course is scripted, the purpose of the BRs is to show the general gaming crowd the game, not to us, we all know all the little details because we actively follow the development of the game, the masses of WoW players that might be curious about a new Blizzard game but dont know shit about SC or RTS, dont, so this BRs are designed to explain the game to them.
-How can you deduct something is imbalanced based on having seeing it on a single, low level match, on a game that is not even in beta, in a match scripted for publicity reasons?, come on, that is really retarded.
I for one, im actually excited for the game. I dont think it will be better than BW from a competitive stand point, but i do believe it can get vey close.
out of 3 battle reports, i noticed that there aren't really any big battles like we see in broodwar. its pretty much back and forth between small squads of units. im wondering if this game's balance and how its played will allow the 80+ armies we see in broodwar.
On June 20 2009 02:43 afg-warrior wrote: out of 3 battle reports, i noticed that there aren't really any big battles like we see in broodwar. its pretty much back and forth between small squads of units. im wondering if this game's balance and how its played will allow the 80+ armies we see in broodwar.
great game though.
i hope so TT seeing small 20-30 supply armies go at it just dosnt do it for me :/
i want to see some maxed out macro warfair with crazy harrass
On June 20 2009 02:03 Idle wrote: I started watching and though "damn, this is cool," but as the game went on... I'm seriously afraid for the game now. Forcefield is entirely too powerful, especially for that early in the game. Hell, nulifiers in general looked to do far too much damage and have too much utility for a t1 unit. Look at how powerful getting a good stasis on the ramp is in PvT or PvP, now you can do that less than 5 minutes into the game, repeatedly and with no need for units to be stasised? Warp in give far too much mobility, especially for when you can get it. Parasite looks rather OP as well, though less so because you don't have it so quickly. And everything looks far too spamable. Blink micro is cool but being able to just spam it like that was ridiculous. Even forcefield wouldn't be so bad if you only had the energy to do it once but it was dropped almost constantly. They need to give this to some pros, or even some 300+apm amateur players and i'm pretty sure the stuff they'll pull with these units will blow their minds.
Uhm... You see, there a little issue with the game NOT BEING EVEN IN BETA YET.
Im sorry for the nerd rage but come on, i cant believe the amount of whining in this thread.
-Of course is a low level game, this are not progamers.
-Of course is scripted, the purpose of the BRs is to show the general gaming crowd the game, not to us, we all know all the little details because we actively follow the development of the game, the masses of WoW players that might be curious about a new Blizzard game but dont know shit about SC or RTS, dont, so this BRs are designed to explain the game to them.
-How can you deduct something is imbalanced based on having seeing it on a single, low level match, on a game that is not even in beta, in a match scripted for publicity reasons?, come on, that is really retarded.
I for one, im actually excited for the game. I dont think it will be better than BW from a competitive stand point, but i do believe it can get vey close.
We can talk about whats balanced and whats not if we want to. Who cares if the game isn't in BETA YET.
oh, you don't want us to? Ok, what should we talk about then? Should we twiddle our thumbs or is that not allowed either?
On June 20 2009 02:34 Yurebis wrote: In my zergest opinion: - infestors are boring, scrap mindcontrol, give it some GORILLA warfare ability like plague or the old building infest - give scourge back or some other unit able to stop prisms (corruptors blow), besides mutalisks, because I don't think hydralisks can hit them that far.
I thought infestors also had another ability that turns a unit into a walking timebomb(kinda like irradiate but it doesnt hurt anything around it until the unit dies and explodes). I wanted the zerg player use mind control + that together.
The big battles will probably come when players figure out how to defend well, if u look at this match there are a lot of army exchanges.
Roaches + burrow seems to be very powerful if the opponent doesn`t have mobile detection: u can burrow them and let them regenerate and then unburrow and attack again.
People have a right to be skeptical / worried, though. Remember this is the same company that brought us the wonderful balance of Ret pallies on wotlk release after the entirety of the community told them how unbalanced they were for the whole duration of beta, and the balance of all of season 5 while people continuously pointed out the exact things that needed to change.
Well...while it's a little besides the point, it's worth pointing out that balancing a MMORPG like WoW is a very, very different undertaking than balancing something like Starcraft 2. In WoW, you're dealing with 8 different unique classes with dozens of abilities and talents, each with three supposedly different talent trees with their own playstyles and sometimes even roles, each one of which has to be balanced against all other trees and classes not only in a raid situation for one of three roles (tanking, DPS, and Healing), but also in one of two types of PvP (Battlegrounds and Arenas). In addition, the necessary balance of such a game is constantly shifting with the addition of end-game content and expansions. And that's not to mention the loot, with the various stats and tier items that are constantly being added, and the balance of less-than-max level caps...
But the point is, balancing something like WoW is quite a different (and, if not harder, at least rather larger) undertaking than balancing something like Starcraft 2-- so a lack of balance in WoW is not necessarily a great reason to be unduly worried about Starcraft 2 at this point.
Anyone else wanna add in dumb comments about how the game is imbalanced when the public beta isn't out still? Seriously, a lot of this is done as a way to DEMONSTRATE the abilities of units, are they too strong? Who knows, its not like they're going to be rigorously balance testing it, they have beta for a reason. The zerg player could be way worse, zerg might be weak against toss, so many things involved and newbie comments like this or that is imba, good grief.
On June 19 2009 23:28 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm officially 100% sold on this game.
I was worried Neural Parasite wouldn't be that great, but it seems to be fairly cheap and useful. Force Fields are fantastic.
Honestly, making a list of what's good is too long, there was really nothing to complain about!
What a great BR! I agree absolutely. I cant wait to see the BETA vids, im really excited to play SC2.
Its a real shame the pages 6-12 of this thread a lot of people made some unthinked statements. I really cant believe they are saying the game is bad, imba, as the BETA doesnt even stated. Some people like to be negative, see just the errors.
They already said the BR is more a bonus made outside their normal agendas. Comparing it to the korean commentators is so exagerated. IMO (and their also) its just something to apreciated how the game is flowing, show it to the public. No need to be so serious. People dont even perceived they were making funny of "terrible terrible"joke. The complains of this are useless, as they will do it again on purpose (its just a preview replay).
My god, ppl complained of the graphics, the balance, the units, the race mechanics, the UI, of everything. No wonder why they dont even hear so much part of the community. Doesnt matter what you do, ppl will find something to complain anyways.
Just imagine if in 1997 they post the VOD of Bisu owning Savior 3-0 to make ad for SC1. People will say toss>imba everywhere, nerf DT-sair! So any Jangbi game vs Terran is psy storm>>imba. Judging balance on a mere 1 game is so crazy.
WAIT for the beta, so after some changes you can come and complain more seriously.
People don't even know how bad SC1 was in its alpha stages. You can't really say how imbalanced SC2 is at this stage when you don't know all the history.
On June 20 2009 02:36 broz0rs wrote: early units in this game has a lot of abilities, probably more so than wc3. i think every unit for protoss except the zealot have some sort of command ability.
The abilities between SC and SC2 were counted up, and it's about ~32 for SC2 and ~30 for SC. The difference is there's a lot more abilities worth using in SC2, so it seems like there's more. Think of restoration, blind, ghosts cloak, nuke, lockdown, yamato canno, hallucination, feedback, mindcontrol, maelstrom, parasite, ensare, broodlings etc. etc. and how often you see them in a professional game. Sure, sometimes, but quite rare. The abilities in SC2 are just easier to use and more worth it. Easier to use is probably the biggest factor though.
On June 20 2009 03:15 Amarxist wrote: Starcraft 2 looks better then Starcraft: Broodwar
lol
thats like comparing an old mustang to a new one
I don't mean only visually.
troll moar please
Did you purposely mispell more(moar?) or something? That's not how it's spelled! It's spelled "more". If you use Firefox it comes with a built-in spell checker. The more you know!
Perhaps making the force fields destructible is a good idea? (along incresead cost off course) That way a 100 suply player cannot be hold for much by a 40 supply one on a bridge. The manner forcefield on minerals would be weaker also.
A lot of people keep bringing up "manner forcefields," but I can't seem to see that being particularly dangerous. If the disruptors can get to your worker line then you should probably be a lot more worried about having your workers trapped and killed. Disruptors seem pretty good at killing workers quickly one at a time like vultures, and a forcefield only seems to last like 10-15 seconds.
On June 20 2009 03:15 Amarxist wrote: Starcraft 2 looks better then Starcraft: Broodwar
lol
thats like comparing an old mustang to a new one
I don't mean only visually.
troll moar please
Did you purposely mispell more(moar?) or something? That's not how it's spelled! It's spelled "more". If you use Firefox it comes with a built-in spell checker. The more you know!
A lot of people don't even realize how much changes in an RTS beta. You know that in the SC beta firebats could burn trees, marines could throw spider mines, etc..
I like how the 4am crew at the first 5 pages loved the BR, then after that was just "IMBA" "ANNOUNCERS SUX LOL" "PLAYERS SUCK"
On June 20 2009 03:52 Tsagacity wrote: A lot of people keep bringing up "manner forcefields," but I can't seem to see that being particularly dangerous. If the disruptors can get to your worker line then you should probably be a lot more worried about having your workers trapped and killed. Disruptors seem pretty good at killing workers quickly one at a time like vultures, and a forcefield only seems to last like 10-15 seconds.
i agree the biggest issue is the possibility to close a bridge so early in the game and not being able to do nothing, imo But without the beta we dont even are close to know for sure its too early to judge balance as some ppl did here
I do like the fact they have all this cool stuff in the game. It's gonna allow us to really get stuck in and innovate during the Beta. My first impression is that force field will be shown to be imbalanced. Once a good player gets hold of that it could get nasty. I don't like the mind control because I think it's too gimmicky so I hope that goes also. Obviously they are still working on the mutas, gonna be cool when they come in.
Oh... and Zerglings still suck. They still don't look anything like as cool as the old ones.
On June 20 2009 04:01 Railz wrote: A lot of people don't even release how much changes in an RTS beta. You know that in the SC beta firebats could burn trees, marines could throw spider mines, etc..
I like how the 4am crew at the first 5 pages loved the BR, then after that was just "IMBA" "ANNOUNCERS SUX LOL" "PLAYERS SUCK"
On June 20 2009 03:15 Amarxist wrote: Starcraft 2 looks better then Starcraft: Broodwar
lol
thats like comparing an old mustang to a new one
I don't mean only visually.
troll moar please
Did you purposely mispell more(moar?) or something? That's not how it's spelled! It's spelled "more". If you use Firefox it comes with a built-in spell checker. The more you know!
Incredible, it's like your brain is broken or something. Your trolling attempts are so obvious and unfunny.
Guess I was wrong about D-Nasty, he really is first SC2 Bonjwa.
One thing Im not a huge fan of is units that have 'cool downs'. That just screams wc3/wow. The only limiting factor in BW is the amount of energy your unit has, so if something isnt meant to be used twice back to back it costs a ton of energy.
The Colossus just can't get a break can it? First it's damage is crap so that it can't kill a single SCV when let loose for 5-10 seconds on them, then it's shooting animation is buggy, then it gets dropped right where it can be surrounded, then it gets sniped by hydras, then by marauders.. and just when they give it some decent damage, it gets mind controlled.
On June 20 2009 04:21 HuskyTheHusky wrote: One thing Im not a huge fan of is units that have 'cool downs'. That just screams wc3/wow. The only limiting factor in BW is the amount of energy your unit has, so if something isnt meant to be used twice back to back it costs a ton of energy.
I really hope they go back to that
Mehh, it doesn't really matter. The stalker could have a mana-pool of 10, that way it'd work EXACTLY the same as the 10 second cooldown (except it's vulnerable to emp).
That's how AoX did it.
Anyway, I don't care eitherway, I don't see what's wrong with cooldowns, I doubt it's on every spell.
On June 20 2009 04:21 HuskyTheHusky wrote: One thing Im not a huge fan of is units that have 'cool downs'. That just screams wc3/wow. The only limiting factor in BW is the amount of energy your unit has, so if something isnt meant to be used twice back to back it costs a ton of energy.
I really hope they go back to that
Agreed, one of the example is Stalkers blink, the cooldown should not be cooldown based but instead based on energy... like give them 200 energy and make the blink cost 105 energy, u can't blink twice right away, and assuming energy regen rate is at 1 per second u get ur 10 second "cooldown" period. this makes blinking a much more critical decision and doesn't get abuse too much... + imagine a a ghost emp into a bunch of stalkers as they attempt to do the blinking dance, that would be fun to watch.
On June 20 2009 04:21 Doctorasul wrote: The Colossus just can't get a break can it? First it's damage is crap so that it can't kill a single SCV when let loose for 5-10 seconds on them, then it's shooting animation is buggy, then it gets dropped right where it can be surrounded, then it gets sniped by hydras, then by marauders.. and just when they give it some decent damage, it gets mind controlled.
On June 20 2009 04:21 HuskyTheHusky wrote: One thing Im not a huge fan of is units that have 'cool downs'. That just screams wc3/wow. The only limiting factor in BW is the amount of energy your unit has, so if something isnt meant to be used twice back to back it costs a ton of energy.
I really hope they go back to that
Mehh, it doesn't really matter. The stalker could have a mana-pool of 10, that way it'd work EXACTLY the same as the 10 second cooldown (except it's vulnerable to emp).
That's how AoX did it.
Anyway, I don't care eitherway, I don't see what's wrong with cooldowns, I doubt it's on every spell.
Yeah thats true... I'm just getting nightmares of the wc3 heroes and how their spells worked. I personally want SC2 to be as distinctly different from wc3 as possible (not that i dont love wc3, played it for a very long time).
The game isn't even out yet, and you want A+ level play? "omg these guys are D+ noobs" you know EVERYONE was like D- level when SC1 came out? You guys have no imagination whatsoever, in 3 years when SC2 has a budding pro scene then you'll hop on the bandwagon and copy other ppls strats. The game has to be developed strategically, it doesn't happen right away.
Same thing with the "I want macro wars wahhh". SC1 for the first like 6 years of its existence was much less focused on macro and big economy builds compared to how it is now. The game has to be DEVELOPED.
Balance is the only real concern. Yes, it does look like Protoss has way too many options for control and forcefield needs a much longer cooldown and warp prism is totally ridiculous. But thats what the BETA is for. The only thing that concerns me is that Zerg play looks too restricted, but I've only seen like 2 games and again, the BETA.
I don't expect the game to be balanced out the gate. NO GAME EVER IS. But I hope it has a good foundation with racial differentiation and different "imba" things for everyone.
The Beam function for the Protoss should be removed. It's just too easy to defend harass and move whole armys around with this. Look at the Protoss expansion which would have fallen if the P wouldnt have suddenly warped in like 10000 additonal Stalkers. Yes it's just a BR - but the potencial abuse can be seen already.
On June 20 2009 04:01 Railz wrote: A lot of people don't even realize how much changes in an RTS beta. You know that in the SC beta firebats could burn trees, marines could throw spider mines, etc..
I like how the 4am crew at the first 5 pages loved the BR, then after that was just "IMBA" "ANNOUNCERS SUX LOL" "PLAYERS SUCK"
So annoying.
A lot of people also said it was really good and entertaining, specifically more so than the other ones. I agree with that, and my deep strategical thinking isn't developed enough to be able to determine balance issues that will arise just based on this video (which many have said is an older version).
On June 20 2009 04:58 SkyTheUnknown wrote: The Beam function for the Protoss should be removed. It's just too easy to defend harass and move whole armys around with this. Look at the Protoss expansion which would have fallen if the P wouldnt have suddenly warped in like 10000 additonal Stalkers. Yes it's just a BR - but the potencial abuse can be seen already.
Im guessing you don't know how warp in works. Firstly you need a warp gate to warp in a single unit (ie 1 warp gate 1 warp in per cool down), and instead of building a unit the warp gate has a cooldown on it and once its up that warp gate can warp in a unit, the warp gate cooldown is slightly lower then the build time of the unit giving it a slight advantage. Second units that are being warped in can be attacked and killed which still activates the cool down of the warp gate however I believe the resources are returned if the warping in unit is killed. This is not abuse this is how warp in is designed, 1 big downside of the warp gate is you can't queue up units so you have to manually warp in every unit once its cool down is finished.
- This map is very narrow which makes force fields specially useful. When beta is out, we'll be able to say if they are imba or not, for now, shut up. - More than anything, I think there were not large scale battles because both players expanded only once. That map was very small, it encourages rushing. - Banelings and the new peon harasses made Burrow become a must-have upgrade in any match. - This game build is pretty old, featuring old models for a couple of units, most notably with the old crappy infestor model instead of the new, much better one.
i enjoyed it i don't wanna make to many comments till i actually get to play the game, i wish i could see more large scale battles but it was a small map. seems like every battle report i have seen no more than 2 regular sc control groups worth of units fighting. but maybe these guys are total newbs.
On June 20 2009 04:57 FieryBalrog wrote: A lot of you guys are fucking stupid.
The game isn't even out yet, and you want A+ level play? "omg these guys are D+ noobs" you know EVERYONE was like D- level when SC1 came out? You guys have no imagination whatsoever, in 3 years when SC2 has a budding pro scene then you'll hop on the bandwagon and copy other ppls strats. The game has to be developed strategically, it doesn't happen right away.
While I agree with this, Ive got to admit, I watched this game and thought to myself "These guys are not actually playing to win, they are scripting the fight to show off what they want to show". A lot of the manouvers both of these players make goes against simple common sense.
Now thats not to say im unhappy that blizzard is producing these vids for us. I love that they are giving us insight into how the game is progressing.
At the same time however I can see the concerns that the people complaining about the quality of play are making. What we've seen is some absoultely terrible play and a game that we can only assume is being balanced based on this play. If it wasnt for beta, I would be seriously worried. I predict some HUGE changes to the game when some of the current top gamers get their hands on the beta and look forward to seeing what pros can do with the current game setup.
A few points I thought should be different - Phase prisms can deploy in the air - This is going to cause trouble down the line. Sorry, but building a map where a protoss cannot abuse this advantage is going to be very difficult.
- Nullifiers can attack - The arbiter was the only spellcaster that could attack in starcraft, and due to the fact that it was never built in large numbers, it could never be classed as an offensive unit. I personally found that a strategy of priests and sorceresses in warcraft 3 was very lame for a legit strategy and hope that something similar doesnt appear in starcraft 2. I think spellcasters should retain their role that they had in starcraft (powerful game changing units, but require an army to back them up).
Those are my thoughts, and I dont care if you dont agree unless your willing to debate with an argument rather than fanboyism (Ive had enough of that). However if you think I'm wrong and can formulate a logical argument which doesnt involve flaming as a primary means of proving youself right, then I would love to hear what you think.
Why the fuck would anyone want to debate whether or not something is imbalanced, underpowered, not useful, useful, etc., before the BETA?
For the people that do this; get a clue.
We should debate any imba race/strat/unit so they make it more real and balanced asap, if you stfu and just play you will just get owned by some imba race and what will you do? Keep quiet about it? I know its beta and not even out yet, but it will stay beta until they get user feedback (us).
Fen, saying you "personally think it is lame" sounds like fanboyism to me, you want the casters to not have attacks because in SC they don't. You don't mention balance or anything, just that you "personally think it is lame." Ghosts have attacks too, by the way, but also aren't used very often, except awesomely by brat.ok.
Why the fuck would anyone want to debate whether or not something is imbalanced, underpowered, not useful, useful, etc., before the BETA?
For the people that do this; get a clue.
We should debate any imba race/strat/unit so they make it more real and balanced asap, if you stfu and just play you will just get owned by some imba race and what will you do? Keep quiet about it? I know its beta and not even out yet, but it will stay beta until they get user feedback (us).
No, you shouldn't debate any imba race/strat/unit until BETA. It's stupid to think otherwise. When BETA is out, then you should express your opinion on balance. Until then, stfu.
On June 20 2009 05:17 IntoTheWow wrote: Lots of stupid posts in this thread.
I know. So many retards post at Teamliquid, bleh.
Why the fuck would anyone want to debate whether or not something is imbalanced, underpowered, not useful, useful, etc., before the BETA?
For the people that do this; get a clue.
This is just a sign of people getting really really excited about the game since we're so close to the beta now, no need for the insult and personal bash, plus, the only thing we can do about starcraft 2 now, is to play starcraft:BW or watch gameplay videos on SC2, or talk whole day about the game even though we can't have our hands on the damn game!
So if ur sick of reading people theorycrafting on the game based on zero experience in playing the game then don't come to the SC2 forums, or have the moderators make a rules for people to stop posting the so-called "Stupid post"...
On June 20 2009 05:52 Ancestral wrote: Fen, saying you "personally think it is lame" sounds like fanboyism to me, you want the casters to not have attacks because in SC they don't. You don't mention balance or anything, just that you "personally think it is lame." Ghosts have attacks too, by the way, but also aren't used very often, except awesomely by brat.ok.
Theres a big difference between saying what I think the game should be like and fanboyism. Im currently defining fanyboyism is when someone defends any argument made with the chris crocker defense "leave blizzard alone, you should be thankful that they are even doing this wahhh" etc. which seems to occur WAY too often when talking about SC2.
Your right, I forgot about the ghost, but they still fall into the same catagory as arbiters, where they are never used by themselves as an actual legitament attack (unless nuking). I liked the aspect of starcraft where a spellcaster was a very powerful support unit for your army, but could not actually fight a war for you. I would like that aspect to return as I felt warcraft 3 spellcasters were too powerful with their attacking moves and made a strategy of massing spellcasters too legitimate a tactic.
No, you shouldn't debate any imba race/strat/unit until BETA. It's stupid to think otherwise. When BETA is out, then you should express your opinion on balance. Until then, stfu.
On June 20 2009 05:54 Shizuru~ wrote:
This is just a sign of people getting really really excited about the game since we're so close to the beta now, no need for the insult and personal bash, plus, the only thing we can do about starcraft 2 now, is to play starcraft:BW or watch gameplay videos on SC2, or talk whole day about the game even though we can't have our hands on the damn game!
So if ur sick of reading people theorycrafting on the game based on zero experience in playing the game then don't come to the SC2 forums, or have the moderators make a rules for people to stop posting the so-called "Stupid post"...
This BR was great. David Kim seems to be pretty good at the game, enough that he considers himself so much better than his opponent in each game that he will use unorthodox or gimmicky strategies. I don't know why you guys harp on Browder so much, either. Some of the stuff he says is redundant, but he brings a good energy and has a good "broadcaster voice". As for the game itself, it's pretty clear the Zerg was in over his head for the entire game. He appeared to have pretty poor macro, or at least made less-than-stellar decisions on spending what he had. The Protoss brought equal or greater numbers to almost every engagement, and that just can't happen.
The Zerg didn't appear to try his hand at any real harassment, the best we got was a failed surgical strike at the main and another at the expansion. I'm not sure why he didn't go Hydralisks, that seems like it would have been a better investment than the constant melee and slow Roaches that he was using. That map also provides a lot of opportunities for sneak attacks, so Mutas would have been another good option. He just seemed to play more like a BW Protoss or Terran player than someone who is familiar with the Zerg playstyle. We see further evidence of this when he opts for Infestors. They did pay off for him, but they were essentially a "last gasp" effort in a situation where he knew he had to be as cost-effective as possible - something a BW Zerg player needs to care very little about.
On June 20 2009 03:45 danieldrsa wrote: Perhaps making the force fields destructible is a good idea? (along incresead cost off course) That way a 100 suply player cannot be hold for much by a 40 supply one on a bridge. The manner forcefield on minerals would be weaker also.
this is a good idea imo. I also think there should some graphic that indicates that a force field is about to go down, so that attentive players can react accordingly. I also think that Phase Prisms should have to land on buildable ground to allow units to warp in, so that it'll make it seem slightly less powerful and encourage creep spreading by the Zerg. The Nullifier having an attack reminds me of the BW Queen having the Mutalisk's attack
On June 20 2009 05:52 Ancestral wrote: Fen, saying you "personally think it is lame" sounds like fanboyism to me, you want the casters to not have attacks because in SC they don't. You don't mention balance or anything, just that you "personally think it is lame." Ghosts have attacks too, by the way, but also aren't used very often, except awesomely by brat.ok.
Theres a big difference between saying what I think the game should be like and fanboyism. Im currently defining fanyboyism is when someone defends any argument made with the chris crocker defense "leave blizzard alone, you should be thankful that they are even doing this wahhh" etc. which seems to occur WAY too often when talking about SC2.
Your right, I forgot about the ghost, but they still fall into the same catagory as arbiters, where they are never used by themselves as an actual legitament attack (unless nuking). I liked the aspect of starcraft where a spellcaster was a very powerful support unit for your army, but could not actually fight a war for you. I would like that aspect to return as I felt warcraft 3 spellcasters were too powerful with their attacking moves and made a strategy of massing spellcasters too legitimate a tactic.
Well, personally, though I don't have a logical argument to make, I don't think there's a particular reason why casters shouldn't have attacks, other than "that's the way it is in BW." Now personally, I agree with what you want in terms of the game, but my reasoning is simply that - it was that way in BW.
And although SC2 is not just an "update" of BW, I definitely want the feel to remain as close as possible while creating new pretty graphics / strategies / potential play styles etc.
It seems to me each race already has at least as many units as are in BW, and if BOTH expansions add more, it will get ridiculously high. That's my only major complaint right now (other than complaints than have been beaten into the ground by both sides).
Why the fuck would anyone want to debate whether or not something is imbalanced, underpowered, not useful, useful, etc., before the BETA?
For the people that do this; get a clue.
We should debate any imba race/strat/unit so they make it more real and balanced asap, if you stfu and just play you will just get owned by some imba race and what will you do? Keep quiet about it? I know its beta and not even out yet, but it will stay beta until they get user feedback (us).
Yeah, when the beta is out, sure, complain all you want. But right now 99% of the people dont even know how fast the game is, dont know how units respond, etc.
Hell even maps arent made. Force field could imba on maps like peaks but suck completely on Python.
Arguing about it is pretty dumb cause no one can make a logic argument, it's all guessing. The game hasn't been played but a large enough player pool as to call something imba.
At the same time however I can see the concerns that the people complaining about the quality of play are making. What we've seen is some absoultely terrible play and a game that we can only assume is being balanced based on this play. If it wasnt for beta, I would be seriously worried. I predict some HUGE changes to the game when some of the current top gamers get their hands on the beta and look forward to seeing what pros can do with the current game setup.
You think SC1 was balanced based off Jaedong and Bisu's play?
How come it has remained balance despite the fact that it was balanced on "absolutely terrible play"?
Because if the foundation is there, it doesn't matter. The maps will make up the difference.
I think that the force fields may already be destructible, actually.
Skip to about 5:14 in the video. After he blocks his ramp and kills a few, he appears to shoot something on his ramp. Unless there was a Zergling IN the force field (unlikely), he seems to shoot the force field for a sec.
On June 20 2009 05:52 Ancestral wrote: Fen, saying you "personally think it is lame" sounds like fanboyism to me, you want the casters to not have attacks because in SC they don't. You don't mention balance or anything, just that you "personally think it is lame." Ghosts have attacks too, by the way, but also aren't used very often, except awesomely by brat.ok.
Theres a big difference between saying what I think the game should be like and fanboyism. Im currently defining fanyboyism is when someone defends any argument made with the chris crocker defense "leave blizzard alone, you should be thankful that they are even doing this wahhh" etc. which seems to occur WAY too often when talking about SC2.
Your right, I forgot about the ghost, but they still fall into the same catagory as arbiters, where they are never used by themselves as an actual legitament attack (unless nuking). I liked the aspect of starcraft where a spellcaster was a very powerful support unit for your army, but could not actually fight a war for you. I would like that aspect to return as I felt warcraft 3 spellcasters were too powerful with their attacking moves and made a strategy of massing spellcasters too legitimate a tactic.
Well, personally, though I don't have a logical argument to make, I don't think there's a particular reason why casters shouldn't have attacks, other than "that's the way it is in BW." Now personally, I agree with what you want in terms of the game, but my reasoning is simply that - it was that way in BW.
I dont know what your experience is with war 3, but one of the factors I found frustrating in that game was that an army of pure sorceresses had everything pretty much everything covered (except for anti-spellcasters). This is an imbalance. Not an imbalance as in "omg this unit is too strong" but an imbalance in that massing one unit was very viable (which should never happen in a rts).
Seeing the protoss in this battle report make a very viable attack with just nullifers brought that frustration up in me again. You never saw a person charge in with an army of high templars for a reason in starcraft. That reason was because they were a spellcasting support unit, not a frontline attacker. That to me is what a spellcasting unit should be all about. Something that has the capability to change the entire course of battle, but must be looked after as it has very little in the way of defending itself.
I fully agree that spellcasters shouldn't be something you want to mass because their attack makes them worth it. According to some sites, Nullifiers are supposed to only do 5 damage (+3 vs. bio), I think that sounds more in like with what they should do. At least they're slow, too.
On June 20 2009 04:21 HuskyTheHusky wrote: One thing Im not a huge fan of is units that have 'cool downs'. That just screams wc3/wow. The only limiting factor in BW is the amount of energy your unit has, so if something isnt meant to be used twice back to back it costs a ton of energy.
I really hope they go back to that
sc/bw had cooldowns on most of it's spells, it's just they usually weren't any longer than 2 seconds
At the same time however I can see the concerns that the people complaining about the quality of play are making. What we've seen is some absoultely terrible play and a game that we can only assume is being balanced based on this play. If it wasnt for beta, I would be seriously worried. I predict some HUGE changes to the game when some of the current top gamers get their hands on the beta and look forward to seeing what pros can do with the current game setup.
You think SC1 was balanced based off Jaedong and Bisu's play?
How come it has remained balance despite the fact that it was balanced on "absolutely terrible play"?
Because if the foundation is there, it doesn't matter. The maps will make up the difference.
Sigh, this is the beginning of what I was talking about with fanboyism earlier. Instead of debating the point, you tell me that blizzard know what they are doing and I should sit back and wait for them to make a perfect game rather than voice my opinion.
I never said I dont think blizzard can balance this game, all I said was that I can see where these people who worry are coming from. I look forward to seeing what changes are made when this game goes into beta. I also have my opinions on what I think should change. If you dont like that, then please god give me a logical reason as to why you disagree rather than the fanboyism shit.
On June 20 2009 06:34 SoleSteeler wrote: I think that the force fields may already be destructible, actually.
Skip to about 5:14 in the video. After he blocks his ramp and kills a few, he appears to shoot something on his ramp. Unless there was a Zergling IN the force field (unlikely), he seems to shoot the force field for a sec.
If you pause and count the Zerglings before and after the force fields, two get stuck outside and five of the selected six get inside. When one Nullifier attacks towards the force fields the 6th selected Zergling is shown as damaged at the bottom of the screen.
On June 20 2009 05:52 Ancestral wrote: Fen, saying you "personally think it is lame" sounds like fanboyism to me, you want the casters to not have attacks because in SC they don't. You don't mention balance or anything, just that you "personally think it is lame." Ghosts have attacks too, by the way, but also aren't used very often, except awesomely by brat.ok.
Theres a big difference between saying what I think the game should be like and fanboyism. Im currently defining fanyboyism is when someone defends any argument made with the chris crocker defense "leave blizzard alone, you should be thankful that they are even doing this wahhh" etc. which seems to occur WAY too often when talking about SC2.
Your right, I forgot about the ghost, but they still fall into the same catagory as arbiters, where they are never used by themselves as an actual legitament attack (unless nuking). I liked the aspect of starcraft where a spellcaster was a very powerful support unit for your army, but could not actually fight a war for you. I would like that aspect to return as I felt warcraft 3 spellcasters were too powerful with their attacking moves and made a strategy of massing spellcasters too legitimate a tactic.
Well, personally, though I don't have a logical argument to make, I don't think there's a particular reason why casters shouldn't have attacks, other than "that's the way it is in BW." Now personally, I agree with what you want in terms of the game, but my reasoning is simply that - it was that way in BW.
I dont know what your experience is with war 3, but one of the factors I found frustrating in that game was that an army of pure sorceresses had everything pretty much everything covered (except for anti-spellcasters). This is an imbalance. Not an imbalance as in "omg this unit is too strong" but an imbalance in that massing one unit was very viable (which should never happen in a rts).
Seeing the protoss in this battle report make a very viable attack with just nullifers brought that frustration up in me again. You never saw a person charge in with an army of high templars for a reason in starcraft. That reason was because they were a spellcasting support unit, not a frontline attacker. That to me is what a spellcasting unit should be all about. Something that has the capability to change the entire course of battle, but must be looked after as it has very little in the way of defending itself.
No its not, it was a viable strategy in the tft beta which has long since been fixed, someone masses sorceress you mass the counter, ie seige and/or aoe spells and/or a method of dispelling.
The protoss caught the zerg player with his pants down, the zerg player choose not to use an appropriate counter which im gonna guess is likely range and air units. But this is just pointless since you are judging something based on 1 game.
On June 20 2009 05:52 Ancestral wrote: Fen, saying you "personally think it is lame" sounds like fanboyism to me, you want the casters to not have attacks because in SC they don't. You don't mention balance or anything, just that you "personally think it is lame." Ghosts have attacks too, by the way, but also aren't used very often, except awesomely by brat.ok.
Theres a big difference between saying what I think the game should be like and fanboyism. Im currently defining fanyboyism is when someone defends any argument made with the chris crocker defense "leave blizzard alone, you should be thankful that they are even doing this wahhh" etc. which seems to occur WAY too often when talking about SC2.
Your right, I forgot about the ghost, but they still fall into the same catagory as arbiters, where they are never used by themselves as an actual legitament attack (unless nuking). I liked the aspect of starcraft where a spellcaster was a very powerful support unit for your army, but could not actually fight a war for you. I would like that aspect to return as I felt warcraft 3 spellcasters were too powerful with their attacking moves and made a strategy of massing spellcasters too legitimate a tactic.
Well, personally, though I don't have a logical argument to make, I don't think there's a particular reason why casters shouldn't have attacks, other than "that's the way it is in BW." Now personally, I agree with what you want in terms of the game, but my reasoning is simply that - it was that way in BW.
I dont know what your experience is with war 3, but one of the factors I found frustrating in that game was that an army of pure sorceresses had everything pretty much everything covered (except for anti-spellcasters). This is an imbalance. Not an imbalance as in "omg this unit is too strong" but an imbalance in that massing one unit was very viable (which should never happen in a rts).
Seeing the protoss in this battle report make a very viable attack with just nullifers brought that frustration up in me again. You never saw a person charge in with an army of high templars for a reason in starcraft. That reason was because they were a spellcasting support unit, not a frontline attacker. That to me is what a spellcasting unit should be all about. Something that has the capability to change the entire course of battle, but must be looked after as it has very little in the way of defending itself.
No its not, it was a viable strategy in the tft beta which has long since been fixed, someone masses sorceress you mass the counter, ie seige and/or aoe spells and/or a method of dispelling.
The protoss caught the zerg player with his pants down, the zerg player choose not to use an appropriate counter which im gonna guess is likely range and air units.
I said this earlier, but im going to say it again. Im not arguing that sorcs are overpowered, all Im saying is that they were too viable when massed in many situations. Being a support unit, they shouldn't be soo strong that a bunch of them can hold their own without an army to fight alongside. Yes of course there are units that are designed to kill sorcs (anti-spellcasters), but the fact remains that they are extremely powerful should an enemy not have these units.
You look at a unit such as a high templar in starcraft. It has a damn powerful attack. It can change the course of the battle. But you arent going to see a player mass high templar and try to charge into someone's base. Because high templar are support units, not your main army.
On June 20 2009 07:07 FrozenArbiter wrote: Which SC2 spellcaster do you see as being able to fight on its own?
I can't think of one ;o
Nullifiers by the looks of things. If thats just an exception, then my arguments are not valid and im happy with that. I just dont want blizzard to go the same direction with spellcasters as it did with warcraft 3.
On June 20 2009 06:49 scintilliaSD wrote: Step 1 - Neural Parasite Warp Prism Step 2 - Suicide it into opponent's own Cannons, or kill it yourself like the BR.
Victory.
this Now i think, why he wasted the neural parasite on two Stalkers instead of the warp prism, stopping the warp ins. He not even thinked or the range is not that far to reach it.
Thats why its too early to judge ppl, wait for the beta. Some counters will appear.
On June 20 2009 07:07 FrozenArbiter wrote: Which SC2 spellcaster do you see as being able to fight on its own?
I can't think of one ;o
Nullifiers by the looks of things. If thats just an exception, then my arguments are not valid and im happy with that. I just dont want blizzard to go the same direction with spellcasters as it did with warcraft 3.
Nullifiers did 5 damage last I knew, with a small bonus against bio (edit: now sc2 wiki says 10+3bio. They can't fight on their own unless it's against trapped melee
On June 20 2009 07:07 FrozenArbiter wrote: Which SC2 spellcaster do you see as being able to fight on its own?
I can't think of one ;o
Nullifiers by the looks of things. If thats just an exception, then my arguments are not valid and im happy with that. I just dont want blizzard to go the same direction with spellcasters as it did with warcraft 3.
You saw 4 nullifiers splitting up a mass of lings and fighting them in even numbers.
List what units, other than other zerglings, that zerglings can beat in an even number match.
it could be one of the choices for Battle Report 2 that got leaked somehow
it was just a few days ago they announced they were working on report 3 (yet the graphics updates/death animations/name changes had already been announced long before)
not to mention that blizzard hasn't said anything on the matter yet, disruptor is still named nullifier, and graphics are all not updated (especially those of the zerg)
I'm guessing that they had/have at least two (maybe more) drafts they choose from and then pick what they think is the best to release for the battle report.
On June 20 2009 07:27 GGTeMpLaR wrote: This isn't Battle Report 3
it was one of the choices for Battle Report 2 that got leaked somehow
it was just a few days ago they announced they were working on report 3 (yet the graphics updates/death animations/name changes had already been announced long before)
not to mention that blizzard hasn't said anything on the matter yet, disruptor is still named nullifier, and graphics are all not updated (especially those of the zerg)
I'm guessing that they had/have at least two (maybe more) drafts they choose from and then pick what they think is the best to release for the battle report.
I could be mistaken but it's my guess.
Why does it have 17 minutes of commentary if it was only a "choice" for br2?
Also, as someone already mentioned earlier, this isn't even a leak and may actually just be a Korean exclusive.
You probably are mistaken. BR3 was going to include zvp. This one has it. They never said it would be a newer build (you would imagine it would be). I highly doubt they would voice over this and everything then decide "nah lets not use this for BR2". I guarantee they only voice record ones that are going to be shown not change their mind after voice recording it.
On June 20 2009 07:07 FrozenArbiter wrote: Which SC2 spellcaster do you see as being able to fight on its own?
I can't think of one ;o
Nullifiers by the looks of things. If thats just an exception, then my arguments are not valid and im happy with that. I just dont want blizzard to go the same direction with spellcasters as it did with warcraft 3.
Nullifiers did 5 damage last I knew, with a small bonus against bio (edit: now sc2 wiki says 10+3bio. They can't fight on their own unless it's against trapped melee
Thats however what they seem to excel at. Sure they might not do much damage by themselves (even though 10+3 to bio sounds pretty damn strong for a spellcaster), but in large numbers they might be able to control the battlefield in such a way that they can totally overwhelm the enemy. I currently see them as similar to the sorc of war 3 in which they could turn the enemy units into sheep that couldnt attack. They mightnt have been strong by themselves, but their capability to completely control the battlefield made massing them very formidable in most situations.
My argument isnt so much about balance however as much as it it about feel/focus of the game. Im not worried that nullifers will be overpowered, im only worried that mass nullifers will be a viable tactic.
My main issue is with spellcaster attacks is that in SC1, you generally needed to protect your spellcasters and keep them out of harms way to prevent them being picked off. This is something I enjoyed in starcraft and would like to see in starcraft 2. If you can imagine a science vessel autoattacking and killing scourge that were flying it to kill them, im sure many of you would think that would be pretty lame as the defenselessness of spellcasters was a very important dynamic to the game.
EDIT: Im off to bed so I cant discuss this any further tonight
On June 20 2009 06:12 Lobbo wrote: Seriously what speed was this game played on?
Seems like it was on the max. The zerglings upgraded are pretty much as quick as they can go. Any faster and they'd probably move faster then a person could react.
On June 20 2009 05:52 Ancestral wrote: Fen, saying you "personally think it is lame" sounds like fanboyism to me, you want the casters to not have attacks because in SC they don't. You don't mention balance or anything, just that you "personally think it is lame." Ghosts have attacks too, by the way, but also aren't used very often, except awesomely by brat.ok.
Theres a big difference between saying what I think the game should be like and fanboyism. Im currently defining fanyboyism is when someone defends any argument made with the chris crocker defense "leave blizzard alone, you should be thankful that they are even doing this wahhh" etc. which seems to occur WAY too often when talking about SC2.
Your right, I forgot about the ghost, but they still fall into the same catagory as arbiters, where they are never used by themselves as an actual legitament attack (unless nuking). I liked the aspect of starcraft where a spellcaster was a very powerful support unit for your army, but could not actually fight a war for you. I would like that aspect to return as I felt warcraft 3 spellcasters were too powerful with their attacking moves and made a strategy of massing spellcasters too legitimate a tactic.
Well, personally, though I don't have a logical argument to make, I don't think there's a particular reason why casters shouldn't have attacks, other than "that's the way it is in BW." Now personally, I agree with what you want in terms of the game, but my reasoning is simply that - it was that way in BW.
I dont know what your experience is with war 3, but one of the factors I found frustrating in that game was that an army of pure sorceresses had everything pretty much everything covered (except for anti-spellcasters). This is an imbalance. Not an imbalance as in "omg this unit is too strong" but an imbalance in that massing one unit was very viable (which should never happen in a rts).
Seeing the protoss in this battle report make a very viable attack with just nullifers brought that frustration up in me again. You never saw a person charge in with an army of high templars for a reason in starcraft. That reason was because they were a spellcasting support unit, not a frontline attacker. That to me is what a spellcasting unit should be all about. Something that has the capability to change the entire course of battle, but must be looked after as it has very little in the way of defending itself.
No its not, it was a viable strategy in the tft beta which has long since been fixed, someone masses sorceress you mass the counter, ie seige and/or aoe spells and/or a method of dispelling.
The protoss caught the zerg player with his pants down, the zerg player choose not to use an appropriate counter which im gonna guess is likely range and air units.
I said this earlier, but im going to say it again. Im not arguing that sorcs are overpowered, all Im saying is that they were too viable when massed in many situations. Being a support unit, they shouldn't be soo strong that a bunch of them can hold their own without an army to fight alongside. Yes of course there are units that are designed to kill sorcs (anti-spellcasters), but the fact remains that they are extremely powerful should an enemy not have these units.
You look at a unit such as a high templar in starcraft. It has a damn powerful attack. It can change the course of the battle. But you arent going to see a player mass high templar and try to charge into someone's base. Because high templar are support units, not your main army.
Alright let me try this again but in a different way, just because a noob masses sorcs against another noob does not make it a viable strategy ever for anyone with competent skill and knowledge of the game, they also can't hold their ground alone ever against someone who knows how to play the game. Now my second point, in s2 the high templar is the same as its counterpart in s1 that it can't attack just like most other casters in s2, and just like in s1 there is an exception which is the nullifier which is capable of being more than just a support caster. Massing nulifiers may very well work against a noob but against someone who is skilled and has knowledge about the game it of course won't work ever as he will be smart enough to get the appropriate counter.
Just like other competitive games you base things about the game by those who know how to play the game not those who don't. So just because you have 2 noobs facing each other with 1 not knowing how to deal with a mass unit doesn't mean that it is the least bit effective against someone who knows the game which is what really counts.
I can see the potential of abusing warp prism, recall is already strong in sc and it is a late game spell. In sc2 you can get it so early and basically just keep warping units every where and rape the shit out of the other guy.
On June 20 2009 07:55 BigSausage wrote: I can see the potential of abusing warp prism, recall is already strong in sc and it is a late game spell. In sc2 you can get it so early and basically just keep warping units every where and rape the shit out of the other guy.
Your warp-in ability is limited by your number of gateways though. If you have 10 gateways (upgraded to warp gates) you can warp in 10 units every production cycle.
You may have known this already, but your "basically just keep warping units everywhere" gave me the impression that you might not.
What's up with the zerglings? They move super fast and even faster when they're surrounding something. Look at about 16:20 when he warps in the stalkers. Some of the zerglings go CRAZY.
On June 20 2009 08:07 hugman wrote: What's up with the zerglings? They move super fast and even faster when they're surrounding something. Look at about 16:20 when he warps in the stalkers. Some of the zerglings go CRAZY.
Non-Drone, non-air Zerg units move 30% faster on creep.
On June 20 2009 08:07 hugman wrote: What's up with the zerglings? They move super fast and even faster when they're surrounding something. Look at about 16:20 when he warps in the stalkers. Some of the zerglings go CRAZY.
On June 20 2009 08:07 hugman wrote: What's up with the zerglings? They move super fast and even faster when they're surrounding something. Look at about 16:20 when he warps in the stalkers. Some of the zerglings go CRAZY.
On June 20 2009 08:07 hugman wrote: What's up with the zerglings? They move super fast and even faster when they're surrounding something. Look at about 16:20 when he warps in the stalkers. Some of the zerglings go CRAZY.
Zerg units runs faster on creep.
Edit: Awesome triple post mates :p
It was even cooler because we all have different worker icons.
Game looks very fun so far, lots of variety in units and strategy it seems. However it seems like protoss is too strong. Spammable early wall anywhere you want, early game recall, blinking stalkers, dark pylons, etc. The zerg won pretty much every battle but was just overwhelmed by the ridiculous mobility and ease of production of the P army. Even though they were at even bases most of the game, the protoss was mining at DOUBLE the rate of the zerg.
On June 20 2009 08:36 Elite00fm wrote: Game looks very fun so far, lots of variety in units and strategy it seems. However it seems like protoss is too strong. Spammable early wall anywhere you want, early game recall, blinking stalkers, dark pylons, etc. The zerg won pretty much every battle but was just overwhelmed by the ridiculous mobility and ease of production of the P army. Even though they were at even bases most of the game, the protoss was mining at DOUBLE the rate of the zerg.
On June 20 2009 08:36 Elite00fm wrote: Game looks very fun so far, lots of variety in units and strategy it seems. However it seems like protoss is too strong. Spammable early wall anywhere you want, early game recall, blinking stalkers, dark pylons, etc. The zerg won pretty much every battle but was just overwhelmed by the ridiculous mobility and ease of production of the P army. Even though they were at even bases most of the game, the protoss was mining at DOUBLE the rate of the zerg.
Zerg lost because he economy failed. Not because protoss is imba.
Lost queens, MASSIVE DELAY on 2nd, never got 3rd up... Do people even watch the game?
If we were watching Bisu vs Jaedong and Jaedong never built his second, sent 20 larva into bisu's cannnons and built a 3rd with no drones... Would you be saying Protoss imba?
On June 20 2009 08:36 Elite00fm wrote: Game looks very fun so far, lots of variety in units and strategy it seems. However it seems like protoss is too strong. Spammable early wall anywhere you want, early game recall, blinking stalkers, dark pylons, etc. The zerg won pretty much every battle but was just overwhelmed by the ridiculous mobility and ease of production of the P army. Even though they were at even bases most of the game, the protoss was mining at DOUBLE the rate of the zerg.
On June 20 2009 08:36 Elite00fm wrote: Game looks very fun so far, lots of variety in units and strategy it seems. However it seems like protoss is too strong. Spammable early wall anywhere you want, early game recall, blinking stalkers, dark pylons, etc. The zerg won pretty much every battle but was just overwhelmed by the ridiculous mobility and ease of production of the P army. Even though they were at even bases most of the game, the protoss was mining at DOUBLE the rate of the zerg.
We didn't get to see how the morph in looks on the extractor but I assume it has a similar problem. The warp in on the assimilator over an empty geyser removes the geyser underneath it. It looks wrong/ugly and doesn't make sense. FIX THIS.
IN BW the warp in sits on top of the geyser unit and it looks perfect. Do that for SC2 plz.
also, the photo canon shot looks a bit small. It's shrunken down compared to BW, I think it needs to be larger.
PS- I liked the rolling banelings better than these fat wobbly walking ones
i guess for some reason my HD didnt go through. I think it lost some quality. Thanks for the better ones, I was going to upload them but didnt want duplicates
They were absolutely terrible from what I could discern
I absolutely love how the Zerg hatchery can just be built immediately though, instead of having to stop, look down at a 70 degree angle, and then build. Will be so much easier, delaying that 12 hatch will be a lot harder imo.
I think roaches were a poor investment. Just mass zerglings into muta on this map, such short distances between base, and do toss have a lot to kill muta (aka splash)?
On June 20 2009 04:21 HuskyTheHusky wrote: One thing Im not a huge fan of is units that have 'cool downs'. That just screams wc3/wow. The only limiting factor in BW is the amount of energy your unit has, so if something isnt meant to be used twice back to back it costs a ton of energy.
I really hope they go back to that
Mehh, it doesn't really matter. The stalker could have a mana-pool of 10, that way it'd work EXACTLY the same as the 10 second cooldown (except it's vulnerable to emp).
That's how AoX did it.
Anyway, I don't care eitherway, I don't see what's wrong with cooldowns, I doubt it's on every spell.
Actually, Units do have cooldowns in SC, just to a lesser extent. Look at Science vessel for example. You can't spam irad, irad, irad, you have to wait a few seconds between them.
In fact every unit has a cooldown on their attacks. Look at Reaver shot, It is basically like an AoE spell that costs money and is on a pretty big cooldown with only 1 scarab being allowed out at once.
Everything has different attack cooldowns/speeds, zerglings get that attack speed cooldown reduce greatly for 200/200.
I kind of agree with blue_arrow: they try to please the hardcore Sc1 fan, that are a minority actually. Paradoxically, people whine because blizzard is, according to them, making a SC 1.5 rather than a Sc2, but when the game is getting a little different from SC1, you can hear those babies cry.
It's a shame, but people are expecting so much from this game that you can't please them, whatever you do. For those who do not expect the game to be an enhanced SC1, for those who want an original game, the waiting is easier to bear.
On June 20 2009 09:44 MrRey wrote: For those who want to download it in HD, go here: http://son-clan.m-rey.com/index.php?topic=66 It's 550 Mo but it's quite fast and it's definitly worth it.
I kind of agree with blue_arrow: they try to please the hardcore Sc1 fan, that are a minority actually. Paradoxically, people whine because blizzard is, according to them, making a SC 1.5 rather than a Sc2, but when the game is getting a little different from SC1, you can hear those babies cry.
It's a shame, but people are expecting so much from this game that you can't please them, whatever you do. For those who do not expect the game to be an enhanced SC1, for those who want an original game, the waiting is easier to bear.
So far as i've noticed, it seems that in general, blizzard is trying to please everyone, and everyone is fairly pleased. It sounds like you just have a beef with the more hardcore sc1 fans.
I wish every SC2 thread automatically had a huge disclaimer in bold red enormous flashing font saying "SC2 is not even in beta yet, the game is not supposed to be balanced".
For everybody saying "its not in beta yet don't discuss balance" what exactly is this thread for then? This is a discussion board, people discuss things. After something like this comes out people discuss theorycraft and possible imbalances. They need feedback, this is feedback. If they didn't want people to comment on the units then they wouldn't show them off like this. If nobody is allowed to say anything about it other than "that was cool, the game will be awesome," then you might as well lock it after the first post. I agree that the "commentators suck / players suck" is a bit unneeded (mostly the commentators), but even the comments on the players have some validity. If players like this who are obviously D/D+ level can do things like this with them, imagine what somebody like boxer could come up with. Beta might be the time for them to fix these things and balance them but that doesn't make comments on what we've seen now any less valid at this point in time.
queens seem awfully fragile, considering they function as secondary hatcheries, maybe should be given more HP and lower attack to function as tanks in defensive base battles? Either way, toss seems imba maybe because of their early spammable spellcasters (blink/wall/gravityray).
But i have faith in blizzard to balance things out, so far stuff looks really fun to watch and play. Everything looks easy to understand, observers who dont know anything about starcraft might have a little trouble with infester mind control, but other than that it seems sc2 is fun and exciting for spectators too.
Man, what a fantastic game. I really think this is going to be the comeback of the RTS. We saw so many neat tactics (not "gimmicks"), and we've only scratched the surface of creativity.
Force FIeld is gonna cost more mana/have a long cooldown. God, I can't wait to get my beta email!
On June 20 2009 09:29 FabledIntegral wrote: They were absolutely terrible from what I could discern
I absolutely love how the Zerg hatchery can just be built immediately though, instead of having to stop, look down at a 70 degree angle, and then build. Will be so much easier, delaying that 12 hatch will be a lot harder imo.
I think roaches were a poor investment. Just mass zerglings into muta on this map, such short distances between base, and do toss have a lot to kill muta (aka splash)?
I think that's just the game being in alpha mode, and there not being a "pre-building" (or however you'd like to call it) morphing animation where they kinda, look down as you say. A lot of the building animations didn't look complete. Such is alpha.
On June 20 2009 09:29 FabledIntegral wrote: They were absolutely terrible from what I could discern
I absolutely love how the Zerg hatchery can just be built immediately though, instead of having to stop, look down at a 70 degree angle, and then build. Will be so much easier, delaying that 12 hatch will be a lot harder imo.
I think roaches were a poor investment. Just mass zerglings into muta on this map, such short distances between base, and do toss have a lot to kill muta (aka splash)?
I think that's just the game being in alpha mode, and there not being a "pre-building" (or however you'd like to call it) morphing animation where they kinda, look down as you say. A lot of the building animations didn't look complete. Such is alpha.
Maybe you are talking about the same thing but what I got from his post was how drones in bw go to the spot they're going to build, stop, turn so they're facing a certain direction, then start the morphing animation. This makes it extremely easy to block zerg buildings because the drone has to do that stupid animation and face that direction before it starts morphing, where here he goes to the spot and as soon as he reaches it starts morphing without spinning around first. As much as I liked blocking hatches this is a change I can get behind and I hope it stays that way.
At the same time however I can see the concerns that the people complaining about the quality of play are making. What we've seen is some absoultely terrible play and a game that we can only assume is being balanced based on this play. If it wasnt for beta, I would be seriously worried. I predict some HUGE changes to the game when some of the current top gamers get their hands on the beta and look forward to seeing what pros can do with the current game setup.
You think SC1 was balanced based off Jaedong and Bisu's play?
How come it has remained balance despite the fact that it was balanced on "absolutely terrible play"?
Because if the foundation is there, it doesn't matter. The maps will make up the difference.
Sigh, this is the beginning of what I was talking about with fanboyism earlier. Instead of debating the point, you tell me that blizzard know what they are doing and I should sit back and wait for them to make a perfect game rather than voice my opinion.
I never said I dont think blizzard can balance this game, all I said was that I can see where these people who worry are coming from. I look forward to seeing what changes are made when this game goes into beta. I also have my opinions on what I think should change. If you dont like that, then please god give me a logical reason as to why you disagree rather than the fanboyism shit.
I was addressing your idiotic reasoning, nothing else. You're the one who said "omg they are awful players and I see this factoring into their balancing." Guess what, thats a dumbass complaint because every game including SC1 is like that. You had no specific factual complaint (durr, I wonder why? Maybe because you have 0 experience playing the game yet?) 0 logic, just whining. Nothing "fanboy" about it.
On June 20 2009 01:26 X3N0N wrote: I think the rays that shoot from the Stalkers and Phoenix look really weak - like poking their enemies with toothpicks. Maybe it's just because the animation is slow, but they just feel weak. Although BW didn't have great resolution, the shots from a goon just feel like there is some power associated with it when it hits its target - it's easy to believe that it was causing some damage.
I see the units shooting in SC2, and for the most part in my mind I don't seem to register that damage is being dealt from the shooters. Other than that, it's shaping up to be a rather entertaining game.
I mean, you CANNOT KNOW if it's balanced or not, as you do not know the exact costs of the units/spells.We also do not know if both players even macro'ed properly and didn't have spare 2k minerals to spend.
Obviously, you cannot discuss balance even before the freakin BETA. Maybe neural parasite costs 75 energy in this build.If it proves to be 'imba' they can increase the cost/reduce the duration eg. to balance it.
You can say "this mechanic looks strong", but you CAN'T flat out tell us that "it's imba I KNOW IT!".Cause you don't.No one does. We MUST wait and see before automatically dismissing the game, as some people do.
Well, again, I'm sure there are a shitton of trolls here also
On June 20 2009 11:01 MidKnight wrote: I mean, you CANNOT KNOW if it's balanced or not, as you do not know the exact costs of the units/spells.We also do not know if both players even macro'ed properly and didn't have spare 2k minerals to spend.
Obviously, you cannot discuss balance even before the freakin BETA. Maybe neural parasite costs 75 energy in this build.If it proves to be 'imba' they can increase the cost/reduce the duration eg. to balance it.
You can say "this mechanic looks strong", but you CAN'T flat out tell us that "it's imba I KNOW IT!".Cause you don't.No one does. We MUST wait and see before automatically dismissing the game, as some people do.
Well, again, I'm sure there are a shitton of trolls here also
we know. but we all like to bitch about it. cause we want blizzard to achieve perfection. some of us also just need to troll vent, i think its healthy
OMG ZERG LOST, WE MUST DISCUSS WHY THE OTHER RACE IS IMBALANCED BECAUSE ZERG SHOULD NEVER LOSE.
Kind of like how Zerg fanbois have to make 30 page long threads everytime JD loses a match. Hopefully JD doesn't go over to SC2 so all these retards stay here and stop polluting cyberspace.
hahah no way. I'd seen the very early SC build (where it looks almost identical to WC2), but I'd never seen what the game looked like during beta. (also never knew firebats could burn trees [which seems incredibly useless] and marines dropped mines)
The defiler looks goofy as hell floating above. That zerg pit building looks awesome, though.
Is there a site with more information/images of SC's beta?
On June 20 2009 11:50 ShawnWilkesBooth wrote: hahah no way. I'd seen the very early SC build (where it looks almost identical to WC2), but I'd never seen what the game looked like during beta. (also never knew firebats could burn trees [which seems incredibly useless] and marines dropped mines)
The defiler looks goofy as hell floating above. That zerg pit building looks awesome, though.
Is there a site with more information/images of SC's beta?
On June 20 2009 08:36 Elite00fm wrote: Game looks very fun so far, lots of variety in units and strategy it seems. However it seems like protoss is too strong. Spammable early wall anywhere you want, early game recall, blinking stalkers, dark pylons, etc. The zerg won pretty much every battle but was just overwhelmed by the ridiculous mobility and ease of production of the P army. Even though they were at even bases most of the game, the protoss was mining at DOUBLE the rate of the zerg.
Zerg lost because he economy failed. Not because protoss is imba.
Lost queens, MASSIVE DELAY on 2nd, never got 3rd up... Do people even watch the game?
If we were watching Bisu vs Jaedong and Jaedong never built his second, sent 20 larva into bisu's cannnons and built a 3rd with no drones... Would you be saying Protoss imba?
Yes.
On June 20 2009 11:30 Mania[K]al wrote: OMG ZERG LOST, WE MUST DISCUSS WHY THE OTHER RACE IS IMBALANCED BECAUSE ZERG SHOULD NEVER LOSE.
Kind of like how Zerg fanbois have to make 30 page long threads everytime JD loses a match. Hopefully JD doesn't go over to SC2 so all these retards stay here and stop polluting cyberspace.
On June 19 2009 13:27 Mania[K]al wrote: I like how when JD loses there has to be a 3 page thread to discuss it.
JD fanbois make me sick.
Yeah, people wondering in the strategy forum how movie's attack completely assraped one of the best players in the world would make anybody sick. Those fanboy bastards!
I don't know what you have against Icarus, a high profile Jaedong fanboy, but you seriously don't need to take the word imbalance so seriously. After all, this game is about fun, not ALL CAPS ARGUMENTS.
I agree with an earlier comment that the protoss weapons don't have the impact to make it look good. Perhaps if the stalkers fired in bursts, machine gun style, or if they emitted sparks on the unit they hit. The immortal would also be nice if it were oh say 10 to 15% larger and had larger blasts coming from it. Also the phoenix attacks look poor like they were placeholders or something? Other than that the protoss look pretty damn slick, I have to admit.
As for zerg, they looked less complete. Still no updated infestor model which kind of bummed me out. Also I felt like the queen was a bit larger than she deserves to be. I can't even comment much because it is so obvious the zerg are not done yet. This must be the same build as battle report 2, so it has to be four or five months out of date. Guess I'll have to wait for beta to see some real zerg play.
On June 20 2009 11:30 Mania[K]al wrote: OMG ZERG LOST, WE MUST DISCUSS WHY THE OTHER RACE IS IMBALANCED BECAUSE ZERG SHOULD NEVER LOSE.
Kind of like how Zerg fanbois have to make 30 page long threads everytime JD loses a match. Hopefully JD doesn't go over to SC2 so all these retards stay here and stop polluting cyberspace.
lol surely you agree though that now protoss has more mobility than zerg , the opposite of what it was in SC1
On June 20 2009 12:32 Assault_1 wrote: I dont think this is battle report 3.. it looks more like a substitute/backup for the 2nd. That would explain the old models etc.
No this is the 3rd battle report, you don't waste time commentating and translating for a back up. Translating in blizzards case takes a long time so this game was recorded months ago before the changes occurred.
Don't worry, guys; I'm sure everything looks much prettier now. Heck, just swapping the Yogg-Saron infestor model out for the Infested Reaver one is enough to increase the games prettiness level by 57% (statistics don't lie!)...
PS- I liked the rolling banelings better than these fat wobbly walking ones
IIRC they dont roll until upgraded, one of the visual Queues they were discussing on upgrades.
Upgraded to what?
banelings have a speed upgrade that makes them roll.
Oh so that is how they roll?
No pun intended, I really wanted to know ^^ For a second I thought they removed the rolling completely. Which would be very sad since it's one of the funnest animations ever.
On June 20 2009 11:58 UisTehSux wrote: Force field and Mind control abilities are ridiculous imo..
So was all three Arbiter abilities in Broodwar. :D
EDIT: BR3 isn't scripted.
David Kim is the current reigning SC2 Bonjwa so he just humiliated his opponent by using every unit he can produce. Look at the Void Ray and Phoenix ceremony he did on the Queen. It's an obvious "Please GG" since massing Void Rays aren't effective on zerg.
OK mean..this is really too simple..look how many pimpest both p and z made.. it is so easy? It could really have a development? if using all that ability is so simple and made by non professional gamer in a so amazing way what will be the the future of starcraft2 progaming?
On June 20 2009 16:56 X3N0N wrote: I've yet to see an SC2 game where zerg has won...
I've yet to see an SC2 game where terran seems fun to play. Judging from these BR (all 3), terran gameplay looks realy boring and dull compared to the gameplay of protoss and zerg. Especially protoss, just look at terran in BR1 and BR2 and compare it to protoss in BR3...all played by the same player, David Kim. It's terrible .
at 01:35 the Xel'Naga Watch Tower is selected, however, in the UI it only says "Xel'Naga Watch T..."
isnt that abit cheap? i mean the full text would fit as its recorded in widescreen resolution.. im sure they add extra black space for widescreen resolutions but it would look better if they extended the textbox so the full text can show, or rename the building :p
On June 20 2009 11:30 Mania[K]al wrote: OMG ZERG LOST, WE MUST DISCUSS WHY THE OTHER RACE IS IMBALANCED BECAUSE ZERG SHOULD NEVER LOSE.
Kind of like how Zerg fanbois have to make 30 page long threads everytime JD loses a match. Hopefully JD doesn't go over to SC2 so all these retards stay here and stop polluting cyberspace.
On June 20 2009 16:56 X3N0N wrote: I've yet to see an SC2 game where zerg has won...
I've yet to see an SC2 game where terran seems fun to play. Judging from these BR (all 3), terran gameplay looks realy boring and dull compared to the gameplay of protoss and zerg. Especially protoss, just look at terran in BR1 and BR2 and compare it to protoss in BR3...all played by the same player, David Kim. It's terrible .
I'll actually have to agree, albeit reluctantly..
On PAPER the terrans feel like my favorites for SC2 - I love the Viking, the Reaper is nice, I love the way they all look... But something is not quite right with how they play so far, I agree.
I think the Drop Pod mechanic suggested by ArcherofAiur would go a long way towards making them seem more fun, tbh.
On June 20 2009 21:42 Kletus wrote: Blizzard has pretty much forced me to play Zerg once the game launches. Did you see the unit portraits?!?! DID YOU?!?!! SO AWESOME!!!
Hell yea! The larvae looked like they were bumping into the "glass" at one point, lol.
On June 20 2009 18:53 LuDwig- wrote: OK mean..this is really too simple..look how many pimpest both p and z made.. it is so easy? It could really have a development? if using all that ability is so simple and made by non professional gamer in a so amazing way what will be the the future of starcraft2 progaming?
Well this is 4 months old... Imagine how many replays they chose between before they found the one they liked. This is not amazing because they are good at making pimp moves. It's amazing because its the best one out of a terrible terrible amount of replays they've saved.
On June 20 2009 21:42 Kletus wrote: Blizzard has pretty much forced me to play Zerg once the game launches. Did you see the unit portraits?!?! DID YOU?!?!! SO AWESOME!!!
On June 20 2009 11:01 MidKnight wrote: I mean, you CANNOT KNOW if it's balanced or not, as you do not know the exact costs of the units/spells.We also do not know if both players even macro'ed properly and didn't have spare 2k minerals to spend.
Obviously, you cannot discuss balance even before the freakin BETA. Maybe neural parasite costs 75 energy in this build.If it proves to be 'imba' they can increase the cost/reduce the duration eg. to balance it.
You can say "this mechanic looks strong", but you CAN'T flat out tell us that "it's imba I KNOW IT!".Cause you don't.No one does. We MUST wait and see before automatically dismissing the game, as some people do.
Well, again, I'm sure there are a shitton of trolls here also
Let me expand a bit by explaining a bit about Blizzard's balance philosophy. According to Rob Pardo, if you have a unit or ability that's unused, that's a waste. You want to make it enticing for the player to use, so when you buff it, you don't buff it just a little, you crank it so that it's overpowered. Then, once players start using it more, you tone it down little by little until it's in line with everything else. There's a subconscious thing when you improve an underused unit only slightly, because it's already been ingrained in the player's head that it's not worth the investment. The design behind intentional overtuning is that you get the player thinking "okay this unit is awesome" so that he'll want to use it in later iterations of the game.
It's likely the beta itself will go through massive balance shifts in accordance with that design philosophy, so even though we can't expect the game to be balanced at this point, we probably won't be able to expect that until near the end of the beta phase either.
On June 20 2009 11:01 MidKnight wrote: I mean, you CANNOT KNOW if it's balanced or not, as you do not know the exact costs of the units/spells.We also do not know if both players even macro'ed properly and didn't have spare 2k minerals to spend.
Obviously, you cannot discuss balance even before the freakin BETA. Maybe neural parasite costs 75 energy in this build.If it proves to be 'imba' they can increase the cost/reduce the duration eg. to balance it.
You can say "this mechanic looks strong", but you CAN'T flat out tell us that "it's imba I KNOW IT!".Cause you don't.No one does. We MUST wait and see before automatically dismissing the game, as some people do.
Well, again, I'm sure there are a shitton of trolls here also
Let me expand a bit by explaining a bit about Blizzard's balance philosophy. According to Rob Pardo, if you have a unit or ability that's unused, that's a waste. You want to make it enticing for the player to use, so when you buff it, you don't buff it just a little, you crank it so that it's overpowered. Then, once players start using it more, you tone it down little by little until it's in line with everything else. There's a subconscious thing when you improve an underused unit only slightly, because it's already been ingrained in the player's head that it's not worth the investment. The design behind intentional overtuning is that you get the player thinking "okay this unit is awesome" so that he'll want to use it in later iterations of the game.
Awesome, I didn't know this. Kind of makes sense too.
On June 20 2009 11:01 MidKnight wrote: I mean, you CANNOT KNOW if it's balanced or not, as you do not know the exact costs of the units/spells.We also do not know if both players even macro'ed properly and didn't have spare 2k minerals to spend.
Obviously, you cannot discuss balance even before the freakin BETA. Maybe neural parasite costs 75 energy in this build.If it proves to be 'imba' they can increase the cost/reduce the duration eg. to balance it.
You can say "this mechanic looks strong", but you CAN'T flat out tell us that "it's imba I KNOW IT!".Cause you don't.No one does. We MUST wait and see before automatically dismissing the game, as some people do.
Well, again, I'm sure there are a shitton of trolls here also
Let me expand a bit by explaining a bit about Blizzard's balance philosophy. According to Rob Pardo, if you have a unit or ability that's unused, that's a waste. You want to make it enticing for the player to use, so when you buff it, you don't buff it just a little, you crank it so that it's overpowered. Then, once players start using it more, you tone it down little by little until it's in line with everything else. There's a subconscious thing when you improve an underused unit only slightly, because it's already been ingrained in the player's head that it's not worth the investment. The design behind intentional overtuning is that you get the player thinking "okay this unit is awesome" so that he'll want to use it in later iterations of the game.
Awesome, I didn't know this. Kind of makes sense too.
Ya, it worked pretty well in Wc3 which was probably one of the most imbalanced games on release and now...isn't. Problem is, Pardo tried applying that same theory to WoW - where people pay for patches and they came too far between and competition is alive and well there. Needless to say it, doesn't work when people are pretty much latched one to one character in and RPG.
On June 20 2009 10:23 Idle wrote: For everybody saying "its not in beta yet don't discuss balance" what exactly is this thread for then? This is a discussion board, people discuss things. After something like this comes out people discuss theorycraft and possible imbalances. They need feedback, this is feedback. If they didn't want people to comment on the units then they wouldn't show them off like this. If nobody is allowed to say anything about it other than "that was cool, the game will be awesome," then you might as well lock it after the first post. I agree that the "commentators suck / players suck" is a bit unneeded (mostly the commentators), but even the comments on the players have some validity. If players like this who are obviously D/D+ level can do things like this with them, imagine what somebody like boxer could come up with. Beta might be the time for them to fix these things and balance them but that doesn't make comments on what we've seen now any less valid at this point in time.
Now after the "troll time" ppl start to try to criticise with more reason and feel injusticed
No they dont need balance feedback from 1 game alone. This does not give any help from the balance point. They surely tested it on uncountable games and know about it more than anyone here. Only the Beta can provide better info than this.
Ppl can comment the game in this thread, be it good or bad. The problem is: - OMG force field is imba because it won 1 game, SC2 will sux, yada yada - OMG warp in is imba because it won 1 game, SC2 will sux, yada yada - OMG the players are soo bad, SC2 will sux, yada yada - OMG the comment is terrible, SC2 will sux, yada yada - SC2 will be a failure because it will be terribly balanced on launch! (like if SC1 was).
They should know how to comment respectfully, not like a little brat, a school kid. Some critics here are well done, some nice posts pointing interesting things, but others are just trolling.
To who dont know how the BR are made, a little tidbit (There is a post of Blizz explaining): First a team select the game by looking at the games played so far. After some other procedures (that can take some weeks) they depend of the staff agenda to go the studio and comment it. -They already know the outcome of the game (thats why they can comment something that not happened yet). If the comment go bad they can redo it, its not live. - the game can be of old versions (thats why spawing pool/queen/infestor are older models) replays.
On June 20 2009 05:17 IntoTheWow wrote: Lots of stupid posts in this thread.
I think it's unreasonable to call the people who have issues with the balance issues (even this early) "stupid" The nullifier's forcefield ability should've never been so early in the tech tree, even without testing it's an obvious imbalance - on paper alone. Any type of mind control where one can remained cloaked/burrowed is pretty ridiculous - though an energy increase or something could fix that (or make the infestor have to unburrow to parasite).
I didn't have any problem with blink, and don't see it needing an increase in cooldown or have an energy expenditure (not everything needs to use energy, folks, this isn't SC1.5, it's a new game). The stalkers aren't very strong or powerful units and the blink dancing is an interesting micro mechanic for both retreating and pursuit.
That being said, there have been a few people with unreasonable posts. Those saying that Blizzard won't be able to get the game balanced because of what we've seen thus far. The game's still probably six months away - that's plenty of time to get the game balanced enough. We probably won't see current SC balance for a while after release (but probably much sooner than with their previous games, you learn from your mistakes).
People have to keep in mind that a vast majority of the people playing the game will not be even close to D level players - the type of play the pros do is a completely different game than what they're used to (and what I was used to only a few months ago). The Battle Reports are more for them than for us (you just have to check a mainstream game site for comments on this most recent leak they all talk about how they'd be destroyed by either player and can't imagine a game being so fast and complex).
On June 21 2009 03:51 ShawnWilkesBooth wrote: I think it's unreasonable to call the people who have issues with the balance issues (even this early) "stupid" The nullifier's forcefield ability should've never been so early in the tech tree, even without testing it's an obvious imbalance - on paper alone. Any type of mind control where one can remained cloaked/burrowed is pretty ridiculous - though an energy increase or something could fix that (or make the infestor have to unburrow to parasite).
I didn't have any problem with blink, and don't see it needing an increase in cooldown or have an energy expenditure (not everything needs to use energy, folks, this isn't SC1.5, it's a new game). The stalkers aren't very strong or powerful units and the blink dancing is an interesting micro mechanic for both retreating and pursuit.
That being said, there have been a few people with unreasonable posts. Those saying that Blizzard won't be able to get the game balanced because of what we've seen thus far. The game's still probably six months away - that's plenty of time to get the game balanced enough. We probably won't see current SC balance for a while after release (but probably much sooner than with their previous games, you learn from your mistakes).
People have to keep in mind that a vast majority of the people playing the game will not be even close to D level players - the type of play the pros do is a completely different game than what they're used to (and what I was used to only a few months ago). The Battle Reports are more for them than for us (you just have to check a mainstream game site for comments on this most recent leak they all talk about how they'd be destroyed by either player and can't imagine a game being so fast and complex).
.... Just /facepalm... Nothing like making completely outrageous conclusions on a game you've never played and have only seen these units in action once. Now have you ever though that zerg and protoss may actually need those abilities at the appropriate times instead of just coming to these stupid conclusions. And just to show you how bad this is I could make the same conclusion about spider mines, a single vulture worth of spider mines can take out 40 food supply instantly, now that's clearly overpowered....
On June 21 2009 03:51 ShawnWilkesBooth wrote: The nullifier's forcefield ability should've never been so early in the tech tree, even without testing it's an obvious imbalance - on paper alone. Any type of mind control where one can remained cloaked/burrowed is pretty ridiculous - though an energy increase or something could fix that (or make the infestor have to unburrow to parasite).
The zerg player did some kind of 3 hatchery build and then attempted to rush in with 8 zerglings, even after waiting, on a map where he had to run 150% of the length to get to his opponent. Anyway, I think if he went with a 9 pool equivalent and made the zerglings to show up even 15 seconds earlier he would of gotten through.
Also the mind control time is mad short, you will notice that he had 4 infestors and used mind control 2 at a time so he could use it again right after it was done. Now this made it last for most of the battle, but these were also small army battles.
On June 21 2009 03:51 ShawnWilkesBooth wrote: I think it's unreasonable to call the people who have issues with the balance issues (even this early) "stupid" The nullifier's forcefield ability should've never been so early in the tech tree, even without testing it's an obvious imbalance - on paper alone. Any type of mind control where one can remained cloaked/burrowed is pretty ridiculous - though an energy increase or something could fix that (or make the infestor have to unburrow to parasite).
You are terrible terrible wrong on that. Seriously you dont know what you are talking about.
This "its obvious imbalance - on paper alone" is hilarious. Man, i refuse to accept you made this statement. You dont know nothing about making an RTS, and think you know more than Blizz. You must think EA is making the game.
Anyone else noticed how the drones in the beginning turned really awkwardly, as if they slided a little bit? Looked pretty weird and just looked like a glitch.
While I disagree that Force Field is overpowered, I do think the energy cost should be raised slightly. When the Zerglings make it into the Probe line, a Nullifier is spawned and throws down a Force Field immediately after spawning. If the energy cost was increased to 75 and the duration increased, we wouldn't have to worry about that, but it'd still be useful.
I would agree that some of the abilities looked imbalanced, but for the fact that the play looked to be either so noobish, or completely contrived, or even a bit of both. In which case, it's hard to say with any kind of certainty what unit/ability is over or underpowered just from this video.
I'm not sure about imbalance but as far as fun the force feild is not very fun at all. I mean its so frustrating when there is a stasis at a ramp which is some what rare but now they introduce this as a common tactic so early in the game omg ill lose it.
On June 21 2009 05:34 Tom Phoenix wrote: They probably would not have considered them overpowered, since people did not know about Jangbi storms back then.
Not to mention you need more than a core to not only build templars but also research psi storm and wait for energy and they can't attack and yada yada yada.
On June 21 2009 05:35 Nevuk wrote: I don't think forcefield is imba because ramps need 4 zealots now, and zerg will be able to get 8 zerglings before that easily.
On June 21 2009 05:35 Nevuk wrote: I don't think forcefield is imba because ramps need 4 zealots now, and zerg will be able to get 8 zerglings before that easily.
Isn't this going to depend on the ramp? -_-
Nope, they're balancing the game for ramps that take 4 zealots to block - so having an early forcefield is probably the requirement to stop even non all-in zerglings.
On June 21 2009 05:35 Nevuk wrote: I don't think forcefield is imba because ramps need 4 zealots now, and zerg will be able to get 8 zerglings before that easily.
Isn't this going to depend on the ramp? -_-
Nope, they're balancing the game for ramps that take 4 zealots to block - so having an early forcefield is probably the requirement to stop even non all-in zerglings.
Huh? Are you being sarcastic or did you read this somewhere? Sorry if my sarcasm detector sucks.
On June 21 2009 05:35 Nevuk wrote: I don't think forcefield is imba because ramps need 4 zealots now, and zerg will be able to get 8 zerglings before that easily.
Isn't this going to depend on the ramp? -_-
Nope, they're balancing the game for ramps that take 4 zealots to block - so having an early forcefield is probably the requirement to stop even non all-in zerglings.
This is like the best video to show someone in doubt why Starcraft is awesome. And they can't use the "bad graphics" line. Caught their full interest by the end of the video.
Also Wtf? I saw this video when it had 176 views. Two days later, 129,000 views. Holy shit. This is the greatest advertisement Blizzard could hope for. >50,000 unique IPs per day. o_O
It's not a gold fish, It's probably a mini upkeep maintenance robot since immortals are like dragoons and have critically injured or killed/revived warriors in them. If you also notice its just basically the head of a protoss - no limbs.
In the 'Resources' overlay under minerals, the first number indicates total minerals in reserve and the number in brackets indicates income per minute. But what does the grey rectangle that covers an area over those numbers indicate, the one that constantly changes length? I can't figure it out.
I think it's a bar graph to give a graphical representation of their relative income, but I could be wrong.
On June 21 2009 11:45 frogmelter wrote: Eh, SCII seems to be really REALLY ability oriented
What happened to just good old fashioned micro and macro? Besides a few abilities for each race, you didn't have to use all these abilities in SCII. For Protoss, storm, recall, statis. For Zerg, Dark Swarm. For Terran, spider mines, irradiate and EMP. It seems like every unit in SCII has some ability... [Yes, I know there are several that don't]
There are 32 abilities in SC2 compared to 30 in SC last I had heard.
Eh, SCII seems to be really REALLY ability oriented
What happened to just good old fashioned micro and macro? Besides a few abilities for each race, you didn't have to use all these abilities in SCII. For Protoss, storm, recall, statis. For Zerg, Dark Swarm. For Terran, spider mines, irradiate and EMP. It seems like every unit in SCII has some ability... [Yes, I know there are several that don't]
On June 21 2009 11:38 ShawnWilkesBooth wrote: I think it's a bar graph to give a graphical representation of their relative income, but I could be wrong.
On June 21 2009 11:38 ShawnWilkesBooth wrote: I think it's a bar graph to give a graphical representation of their relative income, but I could be wrong.
Not income rate. Current minerals/gas.
Isn't that what the numbers are for though? I'm talking about the grey transparent bar.
On June 21 2009 10:39 CharlieMurphy wrote: It's not a gold fish, It's probably a mini upkeep maintenance robot since immortals are like dragoons and have critically injured or killed/revived warriors in them. If you also notice its just basically the head of a protoss - no limbs.
Its a goldfish. Look at it in high def with full screen.
amazing...picking up detail like that yes, it's a goldfish, and the immortal salutes it, then communicates with it. Rumor says that space goldfish are known for their high intelligence and are valuable assistants to highly developped species like the protoss
Why all this talk about balance? The game will have countless changes in the first year anyways, pointless... not like broodwar was perfect when it came out, too.
hmm maps have always made a big impact on balance, and I think the zerg losing has to be attributed to map imbalance. That third looks really hard to secure, and it looks like base-wise, the numbers will be similar in PvZ to BW (3 base Zerg needed vs 2 base Protoss). The Zerg simply couldn't keep up in econ :\
I hope the attacking and death animations and sounds are only temporary. They seem so.. uninspired compared to BW. The Zergling's attack and death sound in BW is so much better than it is in SC2, and the Dragoon's attack and death animation and sounds are so much cooler than the Stalker's.
On June 21 2009 17:45 ArvickHero wrote: hmm maps have always made a big impact on balance, and I think the zerg losing has to be attributed to map imbalance. That third looks really hard to secure, and it looks like base-wise, the numbers will be similar in PvZ to BW (3 base Zerg needed vs 2 base Protoss). The Zerg simply couldn't keep up in econ :\
I hope the attacking and death animations and sounds are only temporary. They seem so.. uninspired compared to BW. The Zergling's attack and death sound in BW is so much better than it is in SC2, and the Dragoon's attack and death animation and sounds are so much cooler than the Stalker's.
The zerg was really bad too. He somehow managed to get delayed masivelly by a single probe and then stayed on 2 bases for too long.
I also agree that the aimations/sounds are dull. They really need to show viewers what's happening because when infesters come into battle you get battles where you really can't tell what's happening. And something I never liked in sc2 and hasn't changed by now is the fact the zerglings are hideous. The look quite un-natural, make silly sounds and the attack animations are really bad. But then again, it's only a beta, I'm hoping for the best.
Another thing is that all the protoss weapons seem to have been replaced with lasers. Like seriously, if protoss units aren't melee, they shoot lasers. Big lasers, small lasers, coloured lasers, but it too much lasers. I like starcraft not star wars. Even if lasers are the best weapons ever, perhaps they could sacrifice a little realism to diversify the attacks.
Yet another point that I hated are cooldowns. Like stalker, who has a cooldown for blink. I do agree that you need to somehow control the number of blinks a stalker can do, as good players would abuse that to hell, but cooldown's are not Starcraft-ish, they remind me of warcraft 3 and the stupid cooldwon's heroes have. You could just give the stalker a certain manapool and the possibility to do 2-3 blinks and then all it's mana is drained. It's easier and makes the game more dinamic.
Anyway, I'm hoping they'll fix most of the issues after the beta.
You can see right from the start that the Zerg player personally is not as skilled at base management. His resourcing throughout the game was sub-par. With the exception of his initial natural denial he was not under much economy harrasement. He was just less skilled in macro. Maybe a wc3 player?
On June 21 2009 17:45 ArvickHero wrote: hmm maps have always made a big impact on balance, and I think the zerg losing has to be attributed to map imbalance. That third looks really hard to secure, and it looks like base-wise, the numbers will be similar in PvZ to BW (3 base Zerg needed vs 2 base Protoss). The Zerg simply couldn't keep up in econ :\
I hope the attacking and death animations and sounds are only temporary. They seem so.. uninspired compared to BW. The Zergling's attack and death sound in BW is so much better than it is in SC2, and the Dragoon's attack and death animation and sounds are so much cooler than the Stalker's.
The zerg was really bad too. He somehow managed to get delayed masivelly by a single probe and then stayed on 2 bases for too long.
I also agree that the aimations/sounds are dull. They really need to show viewers what's happening because when infesters come into battle you get battles where you really can't tell what's happening. And something I never liked in sc2 and hasn't changed by now is the fact the zerglings are hideous. The look quite un-natural, make silly sounds and the attack animations are really bad. But then again, it's only a beta, I'm hoping for the best.
Another thing is that all the protoss weapons seem to have been replaced with lasers. Like seriously, if protoss units aren't melee, they shoot lasers. Big lasers, small lasers, coloured lasers, but it too much lasers. I like starcraft not star wars. Even if lasers are the best weapons ever, perhaps they could sacrifice a little realism to diversify the attacks.
Yet another point that I hated are cooldowns. Like stalker, who has a cooldown for blink. I do agree that you need to somehow control the number of blinks a stalker can do, as good players would abuse that to hell, but cooldown's are not Starcraft-ish, they remind me of warcraft 3 and the stupid cooldwon's heroes have. You could just give the stalker a certain manapool and the possibility to do 2-3 blinks and then all it's mana is drained. It's easier and makes the game more dinamic.
Anyway, I'm hoping they'll fix most of the issues after the beta.
Your idea of mana for blink is horrible. I don't want a toss to be able to blink 2-3 times back to back with full mana stalkers.
No it's not because WC3 had cooldowns that cooldowns are bad. Give wc3 a friggin rest already.
On June 21 2009 17:45 ArvickHero wrote: hmm maps have always made a big impact on balance, and I think the zerg losing has to be attributed to map imbalance. That third looks really hard to secure, and it looks like base-wise, the numbers will be similar in PvZ to BW (3 base Zerg needed vs 2 base Protoss). The Zerg simply couldn't keep up in econ :\
I hope the attacking and death animations and sounds are only temporary. They seem so.. uninspired compared to BW. The Zergling's attack and death sound in BW is so much better than it is in SC2, and the Dragoon's attack and death animation and sounds are so much cooler than the Stalker's.
The zerg was really bad too. He somehow managed to get delayed masivelly by a single probe and then stayed on 2 bases for too long.
I also agree that the aimations/sounds are dull. They really need to show viewers what's happening because when infesters come into battle you get battles where you really can't tell what's happening. And something I never liked in sc2 and hasn't changed by now is the fact the zerglings are hideous. The look quite un-natural, make silly sounds and the attack animations are really bad. But then again, it's only a beta, I'm hoping for the best.
Another thing is that all the protoss weapons seem to have been replaced with lasers. Like seriously, if protoss units aren't melee, they shoot lasers. Big lasers, small lasers, coloured lasers, but it too much lasers. I like starcraft not star wars. Even if lasers are the best weapons ever, perhaps they could sacrifice a little realism to diversify the attacks.
Yet another point that I hated are cooldowns. Like stalker, who has a cooldown for blink. I do agree that you need to somehow control the number of blinks a stalker can do, as good players would abuse that to hell, but cooldown's are not Starcraft-ish, they remind me of warcraft 3 and the stupid cooldwon's heroes have. You could just give the stalker a certain manapool and the possibility to do 2-3 blinks and then all it's mana is drained. It's easier and makes the game more dinamic.
Anyway, I'm hoping they'll fix most of the issues after the beta.
Your idea of mana for blink is horrible. I don't want a toss to be able to blink 2-3 times back to back with full mana stalkers.
No it's not because WC3 had cooldowns that cooldowns are bad. Give wc3 a friggin rest already.
We don't really have a firm grasp about how the metagame is and until we do, we can only hail what we like and criticize what we don't. I'm merely concerned that introducing elements from a game micro-oriented game to a higly macro-oriented one might not work very well.
On June 21 2009 18:44 FirstBorn wrote: Yet another point that I hated are cooldowns. Like stalker, who has a cooldown for blink. I do agree that you need to somehow control the number of blinks a stalker can do, as good players would abuse that to hell, but cooldown's are not Starcraft-ish, they remind me of warcraft 3 and the stupid cooldwon's heroes have. You could just give the stalker a certain manapool and the possibility to do 2-3 blinks and then all it's mana is drained. It's easier and makes the game more dinamic.
Anyway, I'm hoping they'll fix most of the issues after the beta.
I think giving it a mana pool will be better also, maximum of 2 blinks and maybe an upgrade for an extra one (or two? or maybe that's too much). Either way I think it will make users think more about when they are using their blinks. But I think Blizzard intended Stalkers to be cliff jumpers and unit chasers (in which case a mana pool isn't going to work)...
edit - LOL at the goldfish thing. Good catch, I didn't notice that, actually I didn't really look at their portraits (better go look now)
Actually, I've been quite against the 'no cooldowns because their not SC' opinion for quite a while. But if blink IS the only ability on a cooldown then why not just give them 10 energy and make blink cost 10 (or whatever it takes to make the duration 10 seconds). This would
a) In general play have no impact on the battle b) Make EMP a more versatile ability as a counter c) Allow stalkers to use the current version of the mana battery for extra stalker micro (it would mainly be in defense as the obelisk is in your base, or used in combination with a proxy obelisk for assault).
Forgetting the pro or anti cooldown debate. Consider the benefits of it not being cooldown based, even if the energy cost allows exactly 1 blink in total before recharge.
I think I might start banning people who complain about blink-cooldown on the basis that it "reminds them of wc3". If you want to complain about it, then go ahead - just use a real argument.
On June 20 2009 04:37 danieldrsa wrote: The same could be said of base building of SC1. It smell likes C&C. New mechanics could and should be implemented,as long as they prove good.
And the blink costing 110 energy is unreal. Blink does more damage than psy storm? Why should cost so much more? The question is the cooldown time. Edit: there is a FISH inside the immortal jelly, with the protoss. I loled, but the portrait is very cool, the protoss look so badass.
but since this topic is so hard to follow, i dont guilty you Ppl also didnt notice
I would like to see the feedback from original starcraft.I am SURE people complained about Psyonic Storm being overpowered, for example.
So seriously, those who complain and straight out 'tell us' how specific abilities are "IMBA", stop trolling. You haven't even played the game, you don't know the costs, you have no idea how the game flows.
On June 20 2009 07:27 GGTeMpLaR wrote: This might not be Battle Report 3
it could be one of the choices for Battle Report 2 that got leaked somehow
it was just a few days ago they announced they were working on report 3 (yet the graphics updates/death animations/name changes had already been announced long before)
not to mention that blizzard hasn't said anything on the matter yet, disruptor is still named nullifier, and graphics are all not updated (especially those of the zerg)
I'm guessing that they had/have at least two (maybe more) drafts they choose from and then pick what they think is the best to release for the battle report.
On June 21 2009 23:41 MidKnight wrote: I would like to see the feedback from original starcraft.I am SURE people complained about Psyonic Storm being overpowered, for example.
LOL at the fish :D it was the best BR for me ^.^ and I wonder why there is no update in official Battle Reports thread yet...? Is Blizz checking how fast will it spread on net without them releasing it properly?
On June 22 2009 01:08 beetlelisk wrote: LOL at the fish :D it was the best BR for me ^.^ and I wonder why there is no update in official Battle Reports thread yet...? Is Blizz checking how fast will it spread on net without them releasing it properly?
They are probably simply finishing up the website for the BR3, as well as translating the transcript into the different languages. It takes some time.
On June 21 2009 22:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: I think I might start banning people who complain about blink-cooldown on the basis that it "reminds them of wc3". If you want to complain about it, then go ahead - just use a real argument.
Although I don't think people need to point it out since it's obvious many people feel this way, don't you think "I'd rather many aspects of the game remain similar to BW because that is the game I know and love and it's existence is the reason I care so strongly about the sequel" is a "real" argument.
On June 22 2009 04:39 Ancestral wrote: Although I don't think people need to point it out since it's obvious many people feel this way, don't you think "I'd rather many aspects of the game remain similar to BW because that is the game I know and love and it's existence is the reason I care so strongly about the sequel" is a "real" argument.
Congrats; the first person to bring up this argument without sounding like a tool.
On June 21 2009 22:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: I think I might start banning people who complain about blink-cooldown on the basis that it "reminds them of wc3". If you want to complain about it, then go ahead - just use a real argument.
Although I don't think people need to point it out since it's obvious many people feel this way, don't you think "I'd rather many aspects of the game remain similar to BW because that is the game I know and love and it's existence is the reason I care so strongly about the sequel" is a "real" argument.
The problem is, that is not the argument they are stating. The argument they are stating is that "WarCraft 3 is bad and anything that is similar to any of it`s features is also bad". However, that is not a "real" argument, since it is completely subjective what one considers good or bad.
Besides, even if what you mention is their argument, it is still not exactly a valid counterpoint. Just beacuse a lot of us would like to see SC2 retain a lot of BW`s features does not mean it should be exactly the same in every aspect, nor does it mean that anything that is new is bad for the game.
On June 22 2009 05:11 Tom Phoenix wrote:Besides, even if what you mention is their argument, it is still not exactly a valid counterpoint. Just beacuse a lot of us would like to see SC2 retain a lot of BW`s features does not mean it should be exactly the same in every aspect, nor does it mean that anything that is new is bad for the game.
+1
I would like SC2 to retain the spirit of the original, but whether or not a largely arbitrary feature such as 'no cooldown whatsoever' is of little consequence (not to mention, 'no gd cooldowns' wasn't a point of the original, so much as it was either not thought of, or impractical to implement).
On June 21 2009 22:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: I think I might start banning people who complain about blink-cooldown on the basis that it "reminds them of wc3". If you want to complain about it, then go ahead - just use a real argument.
Although I don't think people need to point it out since it's obvious many people feel this way, don't you think "I'd rather many aspects of the game remain similar to BW because that is the game I know and love and it's existence is the reason I care so strongly about the sequel" is a "real" argument.
The problem is that Blizzard wants this game to seem as diferent as posible from BW. Look at any SC2 related article in a neutral website, what is the number one thing people complain about?, the game is way too similar to BW. They will talk about all the innovation in DoW 2 and how SC2 is just the same process of build your base, make soldiers, send the to the enemy base and win.
Now, anyone in TL knows that BW is far more complex and deep than that, but the average gamer doesnt, and those are the people that are going to boy most of the copies of the game.
If Blizzard wanted to make the best competitive game posible, then SC2 would be BW with updates graphics, new units and abilities, but that wont make them enough money, so they have to reach a middle ground by saying to hardcore gamers, "look you retards, it has all the complexity you like, its really competitive!", while saying to the average PC gamer, "look you retards, it has all the innovation you like, its really fun!"
Cooldowns are not "bad" or "good" by themselves, they are just a tool to archieve balance, and just because they were in WCIII it does not mean that it would make the games similar.
I really enjoyed WCIII, mostly for the campaing, and while me may all agree that BW is far better from a competitive multiplayer standpoint, i just cant help to be really annoyed by the retarded elitisism of some posters regarding this issue.
On June 21 2009 22:26 FrozenArbiter wrote: I think I might start banning people who complain about blink-cooldown on the basis that it "reminds them of wc3". If you want to complain about it, then go ahead - just use a real argument.
Although I don't think people need to point it out since it's obvious many people feel this way, don't you think "I'd rather many aspects of the game remain similar to BW because that is the game I know and love and it's existence is the reason I care so strongly about the sequel" is a "real" argument.
The problem is, that is not the argument they are stating. The argument they are stating is that "WarCraft 3 is bad and anything that is similar to any of it`s features is also bad". However, that is not a "real" argument, since it is completely subjective what one considers good or bad.
Besides, even if what you mention is their argument, it is still not exactly a valid counterpoint. Just beacuse a lot of us would like to see SC2 retain a lot of BW`s features does not mean it should be exactly the same in every aspect, nor does it mean that anything that is new is bad for the game.
I don't think the WC3 is "bad" (well, technically I do but that's not the basis for my resentment of teh cd mechanic here) but at the same time I completely agree. I want sc2 to feel like bw. Cooldowns are something from warcraft, where sc has the energy management mechanics. I don't feel like cooldowns add the same complexity that an energy management system adds. If the cds are short, there tends to be no thought to using them, just hit it whenever it comes up. These types of abilities tend to be spammed. If the cds are extremely long, you end up with abilities that are either saved and rarely used, or if they are very useful abilities you lose out on the ability to use multiple times in a key situation. Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes. Or if scan was on a 30 second cd instead of an energy cost. You could scan on cd for the first few minutes, then as soon as you see cloaked units / lurkers scan goes from being something spammed on cd to something that is so incredibly valuable that you can't afford to use it. I just find cds tend to discourage creative gameplay and force the player into a specific playstyle.
On June 21 2009 10:39 CharlieMurphy wrote: It's not a gold fish, It's probably a mini upkeep maintenance robot since immortals are like dragoons and have critically injured or killed/revived warriors in them. If you also notice its just basically the head of a protoss - no limbs.
Its a goldfish. Look at it in high def with full screen.
its somekind of goldfish - thats why i used the word fish no need to look exact like one be one type of SC goldfish also goldfish has subspecies like that :
or that
its called kinguio here on Brazil, and i think its goldfish on USA The google search show it as a goldfish
They're moving the emphasis from being able to perform moves to knowing when to perform the moves. Which do you think is more interesting?
You can teach someone to do things mechanically without them understanding the game at all. It's not that hard. You just have to be fast enough.
Learning why and when you are supposed to do things require a deeper understanding of the game. Learning the subtle nuances of timing is hard.
Was Gretzky the greatest because he was faster or shot harder than anyone else? Is Boxer a legend because of his mechanics? Do you think that's air your breathing?
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
I don't think you could find a single person who would argue that psi storm cooldown makes any sense at all. Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
I would actually liken it your second example, scans. Obviously, they're 'slightly' different in that scans actually used energy and had no 'real' cooldown, but beneath it all, they acted the same: you'd have a limited number of uses, and you'd have to wait for the energy to return (in other words, cool down). If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
*EMP excepted, I know, but this may as well be intentional on Blizzard's part, not wanting to rob the Stalker of its gimmick so easily.
Also: EASTER EGG MIGHT NOT BE ANATOMICALLY PERFECT, SHOCK AND AWE. Of course, there are many different kinds of goldfish, and I'm pretty sure one of them actually has wavy tail fins.
EDIT: Srsly, your claim that all goldfish look the same is racist.
The difference between mana and cooldown is that you can store mana, so it's not really the same and potentially game-changing for very high risk-high reward abilities.
So you'd want the Stalker to potentially be able to blink more than once in succession? Man, feel pity for the Blizzard office, someone other than David Kim wants to win.
The thing is, all the suggestions I've heard for removing cooldown (or, at least, a large majority of them) basically revolve around the Stalker having enough energy to blink once, and only once. This, of course, makes changing the current system in place entirely pointless. If, of course, the Stalker might be able to blink more than once then yeah, that would change it completely (now with possible 'Stalker imba' fun!).
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. So I would agree with you on that point. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity.
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity.
Because you want to control where it goes? Because you don't want to waste it during a fight?
Giving it a 3 cooldown limit might lead to more creative uses, but it will also make the stalker about 10 times as strong lol
MAYBE as a late game upgrade - MAYBE. Seriously, you can get blink incredibly fast, don't you see how ridiculously strong they would be if they could blink 3 times in a row? They'd literally never be caught by anything, ever! Nothing could outrun them, EVER.
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity.
Because you want to control where it goes? Because you don't want to waste it during a fight?
Giving it a 3 cooldown limit might lead to more creative uses, but it will also make the stalker about 10 times as strong lol
MAYBE as a late game upgrade - MAYBE. Seriously, you can get blink incredibly fast, don't you see how ridiculously strong they would be if they could blink 3 times in a row? They'd literally never be caught by anything, ever! Nothing could outrun them, EVER.
No, I don't see how that would be ridiculously strong because as soon as you've used it 2-3 times you now have to wait for your energy bar to regen back to whatever is needed to blink. It leads to exactly the creative uses I like to see. They may escape, but now the energy is spent, and next time you encounter them they may not have the energy to even blink once. If you spent all of your energy chasing down an army, and suddenly that army gets reinforced your stalkers are now dead because you have used all your energy to pursue and have none left to flee. It makes you have to think about if this is the best situation to use your energy.
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. So I would agree with you on that point. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity.
What?!
A ten second cooldown lends itself to more strategic choices. If I use it now and blink to a bad position I will be screwed. It forces the player to play smarter and be more creative. Besides, it would be impossible to make it autocast. Where would it blink? When?
Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession makes the decision of when and where to blink much less important. Blinked at a bad time or to a bad position? No problem, just blink again. It detracts for being used creatively.
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity.
Because you want to control where it goes? Because you don't want to waste it during a fight?
Giving it a 3 cooldown limit might lead to more creative uses, but it will also make the stalker about 10 times as strong lol
MAYBE as a late game upgrade - MAYBE. Seriously, you can get blink incredibly fast, don't you see how ridiculously strong they would be if they could blink 3 times in a row? They'd literally never be caught by anything, ever! Nothing could outrun them, EVER.
That's a good point. A cooldown is designed to limit something's effectiveness. If you could use blink multiple times really quickly, then expect the Stalker to be much weaker overall. Like a pure harassment unit that can't actually fight units at equal strength on its own. I'm pretty sure that's not the role they are designing the unit for.
If you change it to 10 energy, 10 energy to use, then sure, EMP works on it. Maybe Blizzard doesn't want Ghosts to counter them that hard - not only taking their shields but disabling their blink for 10 seconds. It could weaken them too much.
Otherwise, the change does little. I believe the High Templar's Temporal Rift already prevents all units from using their ability inside the field (or I may be thinking of another spell), so EMP would be the only change. And it really is such a petty argument, because it feels like "War3". If that's the only reason, you need to seriously think about what you're saying. Focus your energy on thinking about real changes that need to be implemented.
Anyway, what other abilities are on cooldowns?
A zealot cannot charge more than once every 10 seconds. (But he's still faster anyway, after the upgrade is researched) I believe a reaper's mines; Possibly the thor's special ability, whatever that may be at this time; Possibly the Overseers drop creep, spawn changeling spells?
So yeah, cooldowns are on units that aren't necessarily "casters".
Also, changing all these units into units with energy would mean that the Ghost snipe ability would do extra damage to them - since it does bonus vs. "psionic" units.
It's just such a pointless discussion. One of the most pointless ones we've had on TL.net about SC2, and I've been posting since the beginning of this forum.
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. So I would agree with you on that point. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity.
What?!
A ten second cooldown lends itself to more strategic choices. If I use it now and blink to a bad position I will be screwed. It forces the player to play smarter and be more creative. Besides, it would be impossible to make it autocast. Where would it blink? When?
Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession makes the decision of when and where to blink much less important. Blinked at a bad time or to a bad position? No problem, just blink again. It detracts for being used creatively.
You're thinking too short term. What happens now that you've used up all your blinks and can't blink again until your energy has recharged?
Hahahaaa With what army?
Oh I dunno, probably the army that they were so scared of they just used 3 blinks in rapid succession to escape from.
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity.
Because you want to control where it goes? Because you don't want to waste it during a fight?
Giving it a 3 cooldown limit might lead to more creative uses, but it will also make the stalker about 10 times as strong lol
MAYBE as a late game upgrade - MAYBE. Seriously, you can get blink incredibly fast, don't you see how ridiculously strong they would be if they could blink 3 times in a row? They'd literally never be caught by anything, ever! Nothing could outrun them, EVER.
No, I don't see how that would be ridiculously strong because as soon as you've used it 2-3 times you now have to wait for your energy bar to regen back to whatever is needed to blink. It leads to exactly the creative uses I like to see. They may escape, but now the energy is spent, and next time you encounter them they may not have the energy to even blink once. If you spent all of your energy chasing down an army, and suddenly that army gets reinforced your stalkers are now dead because you have used all your energy to pursue and have none left to flee. It makes you have to think about if this is the best situation to use your energy.
Honestly this idea is just terrible and awful. You want to make the stalker a vastly overpowered unit and a vastly underpowered unit, good luck balancing that. This also wouldn't make people think about when to use this would only severely limit when you can use it, ie: defensive purposes only 99% of the time which is certainly not whats best for the game.
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes.
Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best).
If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter?
I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. So I would agree with you on that point. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity.
What?!
Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession makes the decision of when and where to blink much less important. Blinked at a bad time or to a bad position? No problem, just blink again. It detracts for being used creatively.
Except for now you've blinked twice, used up all your energy, and can't blink again for [energy recharge period]. When and where to blink is just as critical if not more so with an energy system.
On June 22 2009 07:58 Idle wrote: You're thinking too short term. What happens now that you've used up all your blinks and can't blink again until your energy has recharged?
The battle will probably be already over by then. A Stalker that can blink several times in rapid succession would be near impossible to kill in a battle. So what if the Stalker runs out of energy? The Stalker will be miles away from my range due to his blinking range, so it renders the whole thing moot.
The reason why units like Zealots and Stalkers get cooldowns on their abilities is because they are capable of defending themselves. A High Templar is able to spam spells because it's the only way a High Templar can attack. A HT without mana might as well be wearing a "Kill Me" sign, unlike a Stalker which can still attack both ground and air targets.
Spellcasters NEED to be able to spam spells because they are expensive and defenseless. If Psionic Storm had a cooldown, it would make HTs much less effective. Stalkers can get away with cooldowns because they are cheap and able to attack. You can't just compare combat units and caster units because they play entirely different roles on the battlefield.
Honestly you people are having a retarded discussion. If you aren't playing the beta to first hand see if something is overpowered or not then shut the fuck up. You can't tell anything yet by that short video and unless you are a beta tester than you can't really suggest any ideas either. Stalker may or may not be imba because of its blink ability and no cool down but who here knows for sure? No one that's who so be quiet.
On June 22 2009 12:14 Probe. wrote: Honestly you people are having a retarded discussion. If you aren't playing the beta to first hand see if something is overpowered or not then shut the fuck up. You can't tell anything yet by that short video and unless you are a beta tester than you can't really suggest any ideas either. Stalker may or may not be imba because of its blink ability and no cool down but who here knows for sure? No one that's who so be quiet.
Just peoples opinions. Besides, people enjoy taking about sc2 :D
On June 22 2009 13:41 rytas wrote: Is there a shuttle left in the protoss army? I was thinking with that warp-prism it may not, goodbye to storm-drops then :<
The warp prism is also a shuttle. Edit: If you watch when it's targeted you can actually see the 'pick-up unit' button. 15:43
not sure if it was already said, but i noticed a discussion about psionic storm and cooldown...i think it's realistic for the high templar to have a cooldown on his psi storm. otherwise he can cast two or three storms but he should be focusing on one storm at a time. with a cooldown he would only be casting one at a time because he's not super high templar. as for what the cooldown does it should only affect the single unit so if you have 3 templar you can storm 3 spots quickly. be thankful the templar can move while storming he just can't cast another just yet. but i do suppose that perhaps he ought not be able to do other spells while storming. idk. we'll see how it works out eventually.
well...i'm not really arguing for or against cooldown on high templar spells, i just want to point out that there is a way it could make sense, if they designed it that way...
oh yeah just in case some don't realize, if a spell had a cooldown it might also have energy cost...but that probably isn't what you will see on stalker...outside of the editing of the blink ability.
About nine minutes in my computer started burning so i havent seen it all yet, had to change computer after a couple minutes of mourning and burial for the old one. Ive had it for three years. Im sad.
Drawing realism claims from a game whose lore includes widespread spacefaring and psionics hardly seems appropriate. Having free reign over how the story (and world) develops, Blizzard could easily manufacture new truths to justify any change in the game (Stalkers with cooldown? Self-powering devices to blink that have a tendency to overheat).
And the claims that theorycrafting with Stalker's blink is baseless? WC3's warden would actually be a pretty good basis for comparison (level 3 blink makes it hard to die without consciously trying), as well as the evidence we can gather from the battle report. There were several cases that I could see where either an extra blink would've saved David Kim from losing a Stalker or two (not the mention, even without the extra blink, the roaches were still having a ton of trouble killing them off). Admittedly, not the greatest evidence, but its not as though we'd be able to test out whether or not removing cooldown would be imbalanced or not, even when the beta rolls around, unless Blizzard were to change the unit.
On June 22 2009 14:14 LorDo wrote: About nine minutes in my computer started burning so i havent seen it all yet, had to change computer after a couple minutes of mourning and burial for the old one. Ive had it for three years. Im sad.
We are sorry for your loss
It is apparent the epicness that is SC2 was more than your computer could handle.
i can't see the goldfish you're talking about. there is a protoss unit then at about 5:20 or so it switches to a zerg unit. you said at 5:21 there is a goldfish.
On June 22 2009 14:27 dcttr66 wrote: i can't see the goldfish you're talking about. there is a protoss unit then at about 5:20 or so it switches to a zerg unit. you said at 5:21 there is a goldfish.
The goldfish is swimming around next to the unit in the portrait. It's pretty small and probably hardly visible without HD.
On June 22 2009 13:41 rytas wrote: Is there a shuttle left in the protoss army? I was thinking with that warp-prism it may not, goodbye to storm-drops then :<
The warp prism is also a shuttle. Edit: If you watch when it's targeted you can actually see the 'pick-up unit' button. 15:43
it did seem kind of staged at times. like they were given a check list of certain abilities/units, and they were supposed to show them all off in one game.
the nullifier's stasis bubble thing seemed like a cool ability but the number of times they were able to use it seemed over the top. plus having that kind of specialized 'spell' ability available so early in the tech tree just felt weird for SC, where traditionally things start with simple skirmishes and ramp up from there. i was thinking if they think protoss need a way to block their choke in tier 1 a shield battery type building that has the nullifier ability instead might work.
At first I thought that he could cast way too many stasis bubbles, but he always has the same number of nulls as bubbles so 1 per doesn't seem so bad (in terms of an energy cost). I smiled at the "LOOK LOOK there's a planet in the background!" sweep of the map. Enjoyed it, though still getting used to the 3D mostly I think, which is probably why it looks 'slow' or whatever.
All in all it sorta felt like I was watching a movie, OBs-ing this game is amazing.
On June 22 2009 21:48 dcttr66 wrote: hmm...it's more around 14:20 actually...around 5:20 that was a gateway...yeah it's definitely something that looks like a fish.
On June 22 2009 13:41 rytas wrote: Is there a shuttle left in the protoss army? I was thinking with that warp-prism it may not, goodbye to storm-drops then :<
The warp prism is also a shuttle. Edit: If you watch when it's targeted you can actually see the 'pick-up unit' button. 15:43
Awesome, was worried there for a second.
And that adds more depth to warp-in alone. You could carry units to drop to defend/distract as you enter phasing mode and start warping in. or you could carry a probe to drop and make proxy cannons, obelisks (for shield recharge) or any building.
Or for building any structure, proxy cannons/gateway/obelisk(for shield recharge) , if you use the Warp Prism for pylon power you can start warping in both the building and the pylon at the same time. This saves 25 seconds (if pylon still takes 25 secs in SC2).
Canons and obelisks could potentially find their way into many battles because of this time saver. (even without making a pylon if you wanted).
Seeing as cannons can move within the field of pylon power and warp prism can make pylon power you could leap frog a small group of cannons with your army in less time it takes to warp in a new set!
Seeing as cannons can move within the field of pylon power and warp prism can make pylon power you could leap frog a small group of cannons with your army in less time it takes to warp in a new set!
No, cannons dont move anymore, a long time ago they lost the ability. Spine Crawlers move now.
A lot of old info is being posted in the last pages, ppl must take care when read some posts. Ppl dont even know the Warp Prism was the Shuttle! Hell, it is since 2007 when SC2 was announced!
On June 23 2009 07:42 stafu wrote: Burrowed banelings = badass.
It was not shown in this BR because it is so old, but the blues have mentioned on the official forums about a month ago that you can now detonate banelings using a hotkey. Which means they are now movable, detonatable mines. And yes, they can be detonated from underground. Won't bother looking for a link because it was either podcast, a major QA or a forum post answer, which most would have seen.
On June 23 2009 07:42 stafu wrote: Burrowed banelings = badass.
It was not shown in this BR because it is so old, but the blues have mentioned on the official forums about a month ago that you can now detonate banelings using a hotkey. Which means they are now movable, detonatable mines. And yes, they can be detonated from underground. Won't bother looking for a link because it was either podcast, a major QA or a forum post answer, which most would have seen.
Oh man that's going to make them even more deadly, they don't even need to unborrow? definitely going to need obs. Once obs are out Zerg probably won't be placing them everywhere.
On June 22 2009 22:39 SoleSteeler wrote: Cannons lost their ability to move around a while back, I'm afraid.
That ability moved to the Zerg Spine Crawlers (Sunken Colony replacement) because they said it felt more "Zerg."
I thought it was on both of them. Oh well, I never liked the idea of moving cannons anyway. (or the Queen, or the Mothership, or the Thor, or bayonets and wings on ground units)
Sorry if this has already been posted, but I found a hidden image in the battle report. It occurs at the beginning of the Blizzard logo animation, in the 190th frame of the video; or about 6 seconds in.
On June 23 2009 13:44 Dyno. wrote: Sorry if this has already been posted, but I found a hidden image in the battle report. It occurs at the beginning of the Blizzard logo animation, in the 190th frame of the video; or about 6 seconds in.
I found this image on the sc2armory homepage. This shows the parts of the map that werent used in this matchup.
I just found it interesting
Edit: It also shows the imbalances is the map. The base on the left looks smaller as well as having the minerals closer to a ledge which would allow for easier air harassment.
I found this image on the sc2armory homepage. This shows the parts of the map that werent used in this matchup.
I just found it interesting
Edit: It also shows the imbalances is the map. The base on the left looks smaller as well as having the minerals closer to a ledge which would allow for easier air harassment.
This is why mirroring maps is important
Paranoid Android? Or maybe I'm just remembering the map completely wrong.
I found this image on the sc2armory homepage. This shows the parts of the map that werent used in this matchup.
I just found it interesting
Edit: It also shows the imbalances is the map. The base on the left looks smaller as well as having the minerals closer to a ledge which would allow for easier air harassment.
I found this image on the sc2armory homepage. This shows the parts of the map that werent used in this matchup.
I just found it interesting
Edit: It also shows the imbalances is the map. The base on the left looks smaller as well as having the minerals closer to a ledge which would allow for easier air harassment.
This is why mirroring maps is important
But i liked the map anyway. I liked all 3 of the BR. If this details you put prove to be really game changing, they are easy to correct
I'm laughing at the troll suggestion about autocast on blink. After maximum 10 minutes in the game with protoss I'll just 1a and win.
I don't see what is so cool about the goldfish. I liked zerg's hatchery eye more and it's gone but what the hell, it's just a portrait that noone looks at while playing. Voices are much more important, I hope they don't give ballerinas female voices because that would make protoss too tough to play.
I found this image on the sc2armory homepage. This shows the parts of the map that werent used in this matchup.
I just found it interesting
Edit: It also shows the imbalances is the map. The base on the left looks smaller as well as having the minerals closer to a ledge which would allow for easier air harassment.
I found this image on the sc2armory homepage. This shows the parts of the map that werent used in this matchup.
I just found it interesting
Edit: It also shows the imbalances is the map. The base on the left looks smaller as well as having the minerals closer to a ledge which would allow for easier air harassment.
This is why mirroring maps is important
wow this map looks so cute. Look at that :o face
lol... now i'm going to see that in my mind everytime i look at this map...
I found this image on the sc2armory homepage. This shows the parts of the map that werent used in this matchup.
I just found it interesting
Edit: It also shows the imbalances is the map. The base on the left looks smaller as well as having the minerals closer to a ledge which would allow for easier air harassment.
I found this image on the sc2armory homepage. This shows the parts of the map that werent used in this matchup.
I just found it interesting
Edit: It also shows the imbalances is the map. The base on the left looks smaller as well as having the minerals closer to a ledge which would allow for easier air harassment.
Was I the only one annoyed at the lack of detectors being used in the battle reports? In Battle report 3 we see:
Roaches being burrowed to prevent losses Queens + Drones being burrowed Banelings destroying a ton of zealots Banelings destroying the nullifiers in the following attack Burrowed infestors parasiting an immortal and Burrowed infestors parasiting two collosi
I don't usually second guess players who are better than me by far, but it seems as if it would have been a lot cheaper to get a couple of observors. Perhaps its my lack of experience in seeing why he didn't create any, so can anyone weigh in about their disappointment/perhaps why David Kim did not make any obs?
He had robotic facility, I think the reason he didn't get obs is because he *WANTED* the zerg player to show some burrow tricks and harasses. Otherwise it would be just a rape, David Kim is SC2 bonjwa.
I think it was a somewhat staged game, but best BR anyways.
On June 24 2009 04:25 zazen wrote: He had robotic facility, I think the reason he didn't get OBS is becaus he *WANTED* the zerg player to show some burrow tricks and harasses. Otherwise it would be just a rape, David Kim is SC2 bonjwa.
So you think its because it was more of a show of abilities rather than a match? I guess I hadn't really thought of that, but I wish they'd done that a bit more for the terrans in the previous battle reports. I didn't get to see any siege tanks or ghosts. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think I heard that EMP is currently a ghost ability. I'd like to have seen some EMP + snipe combos on zealot for sure.
On June 24 2009 04:41 Tsagacity wrote: If they're trying to showcase abilities, my guess is they may have skipped tank/ghost intentionally because they're old unit/abilities.
So they showed...nothing at all? At least in the BR1, the second BR had some hunter missile usage...which is another boring damage dealing spell.
They either did a very poor job designing the whole terran race or they are constantly doing very bad job presenting it. I'm hoping for the later, but fearing the former :/.
My opinion is that terran early units - namely the Marauder - are lacking a cool ability. I'm pretty sure Reapers will have some very cool moments with their cliff-climbing jet packs, and we all want our good old Marines with Stim Packs as well as their new shield upgrades.
So yeah, I really think the Marauder could use some cool, tactical (read: not damage-dealing) ability.
EDIT: And I could say that Hellions are, right now, the only unit presented in SC2 that utterly failed to substitute it's precedent (SP?), the awesome Vulture. Now that I'm thinking of it, I'll agree with you. Zerg and Protoss are indeed looking cooler than Terran in SC2 right now. But only Beta will prove me right or wrong.
It's been said many, many times, but - people play the game all day long, and Blizzard sifts through some that they think are good enough to be shown to the public. When they find one that's back and forth, and maybe shows some cool tricks, then they watch it a couple times and probably make notes on what to say and when. Then they record it, and it sounds really scripted, because Robert Simpson will say "oh, and look the Zerglings are going off to the right and - oh yes, they're becoming Banelings!" before it really even happens. That doesn't mean the game itself is scripted, just the commentary.
Just because you see a couple neat tricks, doesn't mean they've told the players "to do this and that at these times."
I didn't really see anyone assume that you should "do this and that at these times". We were mostly talking about how they failed to showcase the terrans abilities as compared to the most recent battle report where it seemed more as if the whole battle report was more of a showcase. (Which is fine, I think we were just discussing how we wished the terran was a bit more of a showcase as well.)
Personally i think terrans are much more cool now in SC2 I even thinking in making T my second race. I love the new ghost, the banshes (fav), vikings, marauders, radar towers. IMO T are cooler than Zerg atm.
On June 24 2009 07:28 SoleSteeler wrote: It's been said many, many times, but - people play the game all day long, and Blizzard sifts through some that they think are good enough to be shown to the public. When they find one that's back and forth, and maybe shows some cool tricks, then they watch it a couple times and probably make notes on what to say and when. Then they record it, and it sounds really scripted, because Robert Simpson will say "oh, and look the Zerglings are going off to the right and - oh yes, they're becoming Banelings!" before it really even happens. That doesn't mean the game itself is scripted, just the commentary.
Just because you see a couple neat tricks, doesn't mean they've told the players "to do this and that at these times."
Please stop posting about that.
QFT. It's evident at some parts that the commentators have seen the game previously- after the baneling trap where a dozen zealots get wiped out and later when the burrowed infestors mind control the colossi, you'd expect them to talk about Observers and how to deal with that- but they don't, because they know David Kim never makes observers so if they can't be shown in action, so why bother mentioning them at all.
They could've also mentioned that the Zerg's Roach army was useless vs. the Protoss Phoenix and Void Ray, and he'd need Hydras to fight them off. But they don't, knowing those units die off-camera later on and end up not being terribly relevant.
That said, the game itself doesn't feel staged at all, and I don't see why they would stage it.
I feel it would be allot harder to stage an exciting match than to just play till you get a good one.
"Ok at minute 7 you want to come in with exactly 7 roaches against my 5 stalkers...lemme crunch the numbers...Ill blink 8 times....carry the 2...ok ill beat you back with 3 stalkers and warp in 4 more... now you need to not make any more roaches at that point so that when I drop you can....."
What you need to keep in mind is that although they are not intentially scripte battles, a lot of them would come from 2 employees testing abilities and compaing the effectiveness of this or that. Eg, If employee1 wants to test for bugs with burrow and employee2 wants to see how much damage mind control for 10 seconds can do, they ae going to agree to go easy on detection or caster sniper units respectivly. They are probably playing the majority of games in the same room or with some kind of teamspeak just testing various bits and piece.
Just because their not scripted dies not mean they are not talking and playing back and forth. And it just turns out that this type of internal alpha/ beta testing looks like a good match for a BR
On June 24 2009 04:41 Tsagacity wrote: If they're trying to showcase abilities, my guess is they may have skipped tank/ghost intentionally because they're old unit/abilities.
So they showed...nothing at all?
HUH? We're talking about BR3 right? They showed disruptor/force field, banelings, infestor/neural parasite, roaches, colossi, and blink micro.
disruptor/infestor/blink micro were all completely new to the BR series and the above list includes all the new units etc, unlike SC:BW tank/ghost/emp.
In regards to the "staged" thing, I think it would be kind of weird to do that, but I think in their BR selection they're looking for something that showcases new stuff. The lack of an observer was definitely very very weird.
On June 24 2009 15:55 poor newb wrote: banelings suck, they are slow as fuck and they end up blowing right next to each other no matter how u micro them
Did you see BR2? Was pretty nice baneling micro utilized (not the mass ball going in at once) but rather when he was sending them in 1 by 1 with excellent micro. Also iirc there is a speed upgrade that allows them to roll in the previous build.
I started with the whole "staged" theory so let me explain:
I don't think it was a fully scripted game - as in "Ok, you gonna attack with your zerglings and he's gonna defend his ramp with Force Field!" - that would be a somewhat absurd accusation.
But what probably happened is something along the lines of a "You guys are playing a PvZ and you're gonna use banelings and he's using disruptors and (whatever) to show off these new units and their abilities".
They obviously wanted a game that would showcase cool stunts, that's all.
On June 20 2009 04:58 SkyTheUnknown wrote: The Beam function for the Protoss should be removed. It's just too easy to defend harass and move whole armys around with this. Look at the Protoss expansion which would have fallen if the P wouldnt have suddenly warped in like 10000 additonal Stalkers. Yes it's just a BR - but the potencial abuse can be seen already.
Yeah let's just scrap one of the most creative mechanics the devs have come up with because the Zerg player is both new to the game and obviously not as good as his opponent. Brilliant idea
On June 25 2009 16:08 Gnaix wrote: force field's way too powerful for such an early tech
There is no possible way you could know this without having played the game yourself. One game with a mediocre Zerg player does not prove this statement.
On June 25 2009 09:46 CharlieMurphy wrote: Minimap/map-SS problem
Yellow minerals are hard to see. need to be brighter/glowing.
Seconded.
Also, would everyone stfu about "scripted". Who the fuck cares whether it is unscripted or not? It's not the OSL Finals, its a demonstration of the game. There will be plenty of unscripted matches at higher levels of play when the beta arrives. Right now, you should be happy they are showing a range of abilities and units.
On June 25 2009 20:50 Nyovne wrote: This game was so scripted as all the BRs are.
I asked someone I trust after the first BR whether they were scripted, and the answer was no.
I don't see why you'd think they were either, given how many games they inevitably have to play.. Not like they go "Ok guys, we need a BR replay, play a game for us" - I'd imagine they dig through the 500000 replays of games they've played and find some they like.
On June 25 2009 20:50 Nyovne wrote: This game was so scripted as all the BRs are.
I asked someone I trust after the first BR whether they were scripted, and the answer was no.
I don't see why you'd think they were either, given how many games they inevitably have to play.. Not like they go "Ok guys, we need a BR replay, play a game for us" - I'd imagine they dig through the 500000 replays of games they've played and find some they like.
This.
That is what I imagined in my mind when I called them 'scripted'. It is scripted, to me, in the way that they picked that replay to show unit abilities and some fancy things, instead of just finding a 'good' game like we might consider it in the pro scene.
Though in the end I dont think anyone really cares, we just all want to see many more games :D
On June 25 2009 20:50 Nyovne wrote: This game was so scripted as all the BRs are.
I asked someone I trust after the first BR whether they were scripted, and the answer was no.
I don't see why you'd think they were either, given how many games they inevitably have to play.. Not like they go "Ok guys, we need a BR replay, play a game for us" - I'd imagine they dig through the 500000 replays of games they've played and find some they like.
I seriously doubt they dig through their replays looking for the right one. They probably have a select few on their minds when they think of good games and then they watch those few and pick the best out of them.
I want to see a 150/200+ battle from both sides next time, if I saw right zerg reached 114 at max I think. Would be awesome to see 200/200 terran of 2 bases against a Zerg army.
David kim, prob just saves the replays he thought where pretty balanced for both sides.. but he really needs to stop showing him owning zergs=\
also the map is so funny looking.. has eyes + eyebrows , a nose , nice little happy smile , ears,, and a funny little hat.. and a little chin hair to top if off.
On June 25 2009 20:50 Nyovne wrote: This game was so scripted as all the BRs are.
I asked someone I trust after the first BR whether they were scripted, and the answer was no.
I don't see why you'd think they were either, given how many games they inevitably have to play.. Not like they go "Ok guys, we need a BR replay, play a game for us" - I'd imagine they dig through the 500000 replays of games they've played and find some they like.
I seriously doubt they dig through their replays looking for the right one. They probably have a select few on their minds when they think of good games and then they watch those few and pick the best out of them.
Obviously, the point I was making is that they have a HUGE archive.
On June 26 2009 09:49 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I imagined in my mind when I called them 'scripted'. It is scripted, to me, in the way that they picked that replay to show unit abilities and some fancy things, instead of just finding a 'good' game like we might consider it in the pro scene.
On June 26 2009 10:13 Lobbo wrote: Frozen do you know if Blizzard intend to release all of their played games trough replays for the people that got in to the beta?
No idea, would we even be able to watch them? I know they said we'd be able to watch old version reps, but I'm not sure that applies for builds we don't have.
This game reminded me of when you're a kid and you're playing with some other kid and he goes "bang bang, you can't move I shot you you're dead" and you go "no you didn't I have armor on" and he goes "my gun has a fucking laser" and you go "my armor is crystal it deflects it" etc etc
Every unit in the game has some random stupid ability
That's Blizzard's solution to the lack of twitch micro. They can't have twitch micro because the game is 3d, so they just create one new ability after another, and it gives this superficial and false sensation that it took a skilled player to place the force fields on the choke, or blink damaged units away, etc
More and more new stupid Warcraft 3 abilities being shoved into the Starcraft universe and I hate them all
It's like when they started adding new Pokemon, but everyone knows the list stops at Mewtwo
And the list of good RTS games stops at Starcraft: Brood War
On June 26 2009 11:22 Kinavca wrote: This game reminded me of when you're a kid and you're playing with some other kid and he goes "bang bang, you can't move I shot you you're dead" and you go "no you didn't I have armor on" and he goes "my gun has a fucking laser" and you go "my armor is crystal it deflects it" etc etc
Every unit in the game has some random stupid ability
That's Blizzard's solution to the lack of twitch micro. They can't have twitch micro because the game is 3d, so they just create one new ability after another, and it gives this superficial and false sensation that it took a skilled player to place the force fields on the choke, or blink damaged units away, etc
More and more new stupid Warcraft 3 abilities being shoved into the Starcraft universe and I hate them all
It's like when they started adding new Pokemon, but everyone knows the list stops at Mewtwo
And the list of good RTS games stops at Starcraft: Brood War
The list.. what other good RTS's are there?
SCBW is the only one thats good IMO.
Anyway, your forgetting that sc2 is being made by the same company, but 10 years later. They should have a much better idea of what to do now. They also know they have a high expectations from the first game to meet.
Edit: There are actually far better RTS single player campaigns than SC's out now, but its MP is another story.
On June 26 2009 11:22 Kinavca wrote: That's Blizzard's solution to the lack of twitch micro. They can't have twitch micro because the game is 3d, so they just create one new ability after another, and it gives this superficial and false sensation that it took a skilled player to place the force fields on the choke, or blink damaged units away, etc
More and more new stupid Warcraft 3 abilities being shoved into the Starcraft universe and I hate them all
/facepalm not this again...
coming from someone who didn't attend the conference -_-
More and more new stupid Warcraft 3 abilities being shoved into the Starcraft universe and I hate them all
It's like when they started adding new Pokemon, but everyone knows the list stops at Mewtwo
And the list of good RTS games stops at Starcraft: Brood War
I'm sympathetic to the fact that some people want SC:BW in an updated graphic engine and have done with it. That is great and all, but Blizzard is trying to build on things they have done that they perceive has enhanced gameplay. Every sequel to a game that has ever come out has the crowd that would rather play the same rehashed game, and they get angry when they see it has changed. Few if any reading this topic have touched Starcraft 2, so I think it would be better to see how everything works in beta.
For the 'BW or /wrist' enthusiasts out there... It does not really matter how many changes they make with SC2. All old units are in the editor. It will only be a matter of time till a set of triggers/code to make the game SC1 are completed. You will be able to basically just make a map then copy paste the code and triggers and your done. There are a lot of people who think like you that will be 100% content playing the 'SC1 UMS', so don't even fret.
If blizzard just made BW with better graphics then that's all we would have. By making a 'new game' with all the original content still available in the editor they are giving us the best of both worlds (and more ums options that would not be available if Blizz just did a BW clone). The only thing SC1UMS will be missing is any bug they fail to reproduce (eg the muta stacking, although from what I have read it is more or less how it use to be now so maybe that's not the best example).
This is as close to win win for both sides (BW clone/sc2 as is) of the argument as we ever could have hoped for guy. Don't forget that.
The notion I had was that in response to my post you'd provide some sort of rational explanation for why you believe this, which I could either refute or be convinced by instead of just being pretty sure that you're wrong.
On June 26 2009 10:13 Lobbo wrote: Frozen do you know if Blizzard intend to release all of their played games trough replays for the people that got in to the beta?
No idea, would we even be able to watch them? I know they said we'd be able to watch old version reps, but I'm not sure that applies for builds we don't have.
I doubt it does considering the models for some of the units we know are changed are still using their old copies in BR3. Though maybe part of the ability of playing old replays means we see old versions of units instead of the newer ones. (probably not - that would mean maintaining a pretty hefty archive of old unit models and stats in the mpq files)
I just think its pathetic people think Disruptor and all these abilities will make the game "less skilled"..
Whats more less skill than a fucking dragoon zealot or zergling hydra attack move?? To use these units effectively, it may even take MORE skill. To deploy the disruptors force field may seem imbalanced earlygame, but lategame will it really win battles? Thats like saying hallucination is imbalanced in SC1.
Just wait til you PLAY THE GAME before you judge it/say its a "newb game", jesus christ.
On June 26 2009 11:22 Kinavca wrote: They can't have twitch micro because the game is 3d, so they just create one new ability after another...
For the love of god 2D or 3D graphical engine has no effect on how twitch the micro is fjkasdl;fjaskl;dfjasdkl;fjsa
Yes it does.
jfeiodjfoiewjoifjsdfgiesj09io
WTF u deserve a ban like now. Its at least 2 threads youve trolled so far
srsly guys BAN
The fact that he says things that you dont like (e.g. unpopular) doesn't mean that he is trolling. Take a look at C&C 3 - probably every unit has a special ability
On June 26 2009 11:22 Kinavca wrote: They can't have twitch micro because the game is 3d, so they just create one new ability after another...
For the love of god 2D or 3D graphical engine has no effect on how twitch the micro is fjkasdl;fjaskl;dfjasdkl;fjsa
Yes it does.
jfeiodjfoiewjoifjsdfgiesj09io
WTF u deserve a ban like now. Its at least 2 threads youve trolled so far
srsly guys BAN
The fact that he says things that you dont like (e.g. unpopular) dont mean that he is not trolling. Take a look at C&C 3 - probably every unit has a special ability
You mean ra3, where every unit literally has its own special ability, which wasn't exactly terrible, it made for many interesting micro battles and no units (at least low tier ones) had abilities that completely raped everyone iirc.
And as for Kinavca, have a look at some other sc2 threads as well (such as Graphical Improvements to SC2) and you will see why people are putting forward the claim of him being a troll.
EPT
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The infestor play seems pretty amazing 
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