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+ Show Spoiler + Hey guys. I just watched Jaedong vs Movie Avalon MSL Round of 32 Day 3 game, and I wanted to discuss Movie's strat because I've never really seen it before(and plus, I'm a Protoss player XD)
So basically, I saw Movie go for a Dragoon army off of 5(maybe 6, I might've missed some gates) and just macro up into Jaedong's base while Jaedong was still drone whoring and just starting to make some hydras.
As Movie sent his goons to Jaedong's base to do some significant damage(hydra den down, 1 hatch down, spire down, and eventually the nat), he also teched up to DTs, HTs and archons. By the end of the game, there was absolutely nothing Jaedong could do; his lings were countered by DTs and archons, and Movie was still pumping goons.
Now, for some of my questions:
1. Could this build be map specific?
2. I've seen a variation of this build done by JF a few times, except JF had reavers in the mix, and he did 1gate tech instead of Movie's FE. Could this be viable in normal play like on ICCup?
3. While Movie had a definite unit advantage, Movie never expanded for a third. I think this is more of an all-in build, but I want to check w/ everyone. IS THIS an all-in build?
4. Was there anything Jaedong could have done to prevent this from happening? I don't know for sure, but it might have been due to Jaedong's scouting, or maybe the ovie got there too late. I do not know completely why Jaedong was over-run or what Jaedong could have done to prevent this.
I've done my best to follow TL.Net's thread guidelines, and if I did not follow some of the rules, I am sorry. I will make sure to edit it correctly.
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United States42654 Posts
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Kwark, the VOD is in the TL.Net VOD database. It's from Youtube. But here it is:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Obviously. Jaedong is such an awesome player. Only an all-in build executed by Movie can defeat him. There is no other way he could have lost. Jaedong is the best player in the world and cannot lose straight up to a rookie, even on Heartbreak Ridge, the ultimate PvZ imba map where even Bisu can sometimes win against Jaedong, the greatest player in the world.
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I don't think this strategy was really all in. All he did was sacrifice some templar tech and corsairs to get dragoons and range out quickly
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Jaedong could've responded in many ways to stop it, especially since he scouted some of critical elements in the build. He didn't have ling speed and was punished while waiting for it to upgrade. Normally he would've had speedlings but he went unupgraded hydras while waiting for hydra speed to finish. I believe he could've easily fended it off if he had placed a sunken or two while building up more hydras.
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United States17042 Posts
the big deal being the templar tech. If JD decided to do anything other than standard 5 hat hydra, movie would have gotten rolled over. Dragoons arn't very good against 3 hat muta, but JD didn't scout early enough - he was more focused on trying to save his ovies from the first corsair and/or didn't get the scouting information that he needed.
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Well the point is that the dragoons will attack while the zerg player is droning up. Even 3 hatch builds have to drone up a little bit so if you can attack during that timing window, your in the clear
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On June 19 2009 08:39 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
Obviously. Jaedong is such an awesome player. Only an all-in build executed by Movie can defeat him. There is no other way he could have lost. Jaedong is the best player in the world and cannot lose straight up to a rookie, even on Heartbreak Ridge, the ultimate PvZ imba map where even Bisu can sometimes win against Jaedong, the greatest player in the world.
dam right!!!
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On June 19 2009 08:47 Racenilatr wrote:
Well the point is that the dragoons will attack while the zerg player is droning up. Even 3 hatch builds have to drone up a little bit so if you can attack during that timing window, your in the clear
Uh... no...
Movie's build was specifically tailored for timing on a 5 hatch hydra. Muta/Ling are effective much earlier than 5 hatch hydra because of the upgrades you need to put into Hydralisks (and the comparatively late den) to make them effective.
If JD had gone some sort of 3 hatch hydra or 3 hatch muta/ling then Movie would have gotten rolled. Goons are only good against Hydras when the Hydras are unupgraded... as they are in 5 hatch hydra until fairly late.
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So basically Movie used the fact that Jaedong plays straight up all the time.
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So, do you think this was a fluke on JD's part? As peanutter said, he scouted the "critical elements" of the build. But here, I have a few things that Jaedong might've thought when Jaedong scouted Movie's base w/ an ovie:
1. Oh there's his core, maybe his tech is inside his nat
2. There're 4 gates... maybe this is a fast 4gate 2archon push
Off topic for a second, but could JD's game w/ Bisu possibly have affected JD's play against Movie? I mean, I didn't see an ovie in Movie's base until later in the game when it was too late. But Ghostclaw said that JD was "more focused on trying to save his ovies from the first corsair
and/or didn't get the scouting information that he needed".
I also found what peanutter said interesting: the fact that JD didn't have ling speed or hydra speed. In usual Zerg build timings(sorry, I have no idea about timings for Zerg, I'm still noob at PvZ...), is it normal not having ling speed or hydra speed by the time Movie made his first push?
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Theory crafting from a C- Zerg here.
1. Could this build be map specific?
I don't believe so. This build seems like it would work on any standardish map.
2. I've seen a variation of this build done by JF a few times, except JF had reavers in the mix, and he did 1gate tech instead of Movie's FE. Could this be viable in normal play like on ICCup?
Yes, I don't see why not.
4. Was there anything Jaedong could have done to prevent this from happening? I don't know for sure, but it might have been due to Jaedong's scouting, or maybe the ovie got there too late. I do not know completely why Jaedong was over-run or what Jaedong could have done to prevent this.
Jaedong should have sacrificed his Overlord to see what was happening in Movie's base and see the 5 gateways going up before any tech other than Core, and he could probably have seen the core spinning, which would indicate goon range being upgraded much earlier than normal.
Jaedong also didn't react correctly. First, he played greedy and didn't get ling speed (it is standard to get lingspeed with your second 100 gas), which greatly weakened the effectiveness of the preferred counter to mass goons, which would be mutaling+sunken colonies. I think that this led to his defeat. He instead had to go mass hydra without upgrades, and in low numbers goons>>>hydra without upgrades.
3. While Movie had a definite unit advantage, Movie never expanded for a third. I think this is more of an all-in build, but I want to check w/ everyone. IS THIS an all-in build?
Even if Jaedong HAD went mutaling+sunken colonies to defend against the mass goon and he did deflect the attack, I'm pretty sure Movie would have still been in a very good position. Jaedong probably would have had to transition into lurkerling since his hydra upgrades would be delayed and he would have a large amount of leftover zerglings. Movie's strategy, on the other hand, seems like it would transition beautifully into goon+temp, probably the best unit combo against lurkling+muta. Movie would have large army sooner than a Protoss usually would and he would be able to secure this third base relatively quickly while making it very hard for Jaedong to do so. Also, because he would have a large force of goons from the timing attack, he should have a decent amount of leftover minerals while building the Templar and he could build a lot of cannons at his third to fortify it.
Basically, I think this build is definitely not all-in and has a very strong mid/late game ahead of it.
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On June 19 2009 08:56 Icarus wrote:
So, do you think this was a fluke on JD's part? As peanutter said, he scouted the "critical elements" of the build. But here, I have a few things that Jaedong might've thought when Jaedong scouted Movie's base w/ an ovie:
1. Oh there's his core, maybe his tech is inside his nat
2. There're 4 gates... maybe this is a fast 4gate 2archon push
Off topic for a second, but could JD's game w/ Bisu possibly have affected JD's play against Movie? I mean, I didn't see an ovie in Movie's base until later in the game when it was too late. But Ghostclaw said that JD was "more focused on trying to save his ovies from the first corsair
and/or didn't get the scouting information that he needed".
I also found what peanutter said interesting: the fact that JD didn't have ling speed or hydra speed. In usual Zerg build timings(sorry, I have no idea about timings for Zerg, I'm still noob at PvZ...), is it normal not having ling speed or hydra speed by the time Movie made his first push?
It depends. Hydra Speed for sure wouldn't have been done by then. I think you are underestimating how long it takes for 5 hatch hydra to get the ball rolling and how quick Movie's attack was.
If Jaedong was feeling greedy and wanted to crunch gas as much as possible I don't find it surprising that he didn't have ling speed. I also don't think that Jaedong could really have predicted this type of push. All he saw was an early goon and a spinning core... which on its own is not enough to warrant thinking a big Goon push is coming. It's really easy to say that Jaedong should have obviously expected a goon push with a spinning core and an early dragoon but in the heat of that moment it just doesn't seem like a wildly likely event.
By the time he even saw the important bits he had already invested gas into Hydra speed and his Larvae into Hydralisks... He didn't really have much of a choice but to defend with those hydralisks. Sunkens might have helped a bit but ranged goons are pretty good against those too.
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This is definitley not an all in build
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JD got rolled he never excepted this kind of build since well we dont even see this often so yea and in a way Movie got lucky since he when 5 hat hydra
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Had Jaedong scouted it before starting his 4th/5th hatch he probably could have just gone mutas to hold it off. But the main on Heartbreak is huge making that pretty difficult. Even once his 5th hatch is down he could still probably hold it off if he just started massing lings and making a sunken at each of his bases but his building placement screwed over any choice he had to get sunkens and just made it hard to fight the goons in general. Plus Jaedong was greedy and didn't research ling speed so that wasn't even an option for him. But thats just speculation. Movie was pretty greedy too and never added a second cannon but obviously he didn't get punished for that.
And if Jaedong had thrown a few lings into his nats (if he had ling speed) he would have seen the core spinning and lack of corsair he might be able to forsee this kind of attack in the future. I'm not sure if Movie just analyzed Jaedong's play so he knew he would not get ling speed, would send the OL out of his main early, and would place his buildings at his nat that way or if he was just lucky but it was still a pretty pimp rush. I think the build would have a horrible followup but I dunno.
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On June 19 2009 09:09 geegee1 wrote:
JD got rolled he never excepted this kind of build since well we dont even see this often so yea and in a way Movie got lucky since he when 5 hat hydra
He did not really get lucky that he did 5hat hydra since pretty much every Zerg do that nowadays, it was the fact that JD was greedy and skipped lingspeed that was lucky for him (or maybe he assumed JD would skip it). If JD had made speed like you usually do when playing this build he would have fended off that early attack really easily. (There is a reason you make speed after all, its to be safe from all kind of early attacks, including one like this)
So I just rewatched the game and I can`t really tell if JD had started building hydras or not from his hatches when he saw the first zeal and 3 goons move out since they spent a lot of time watching that army before they went back too JDs hatches. So I wonder if he had not started the hydras if he could simply have canceled speed and +1 and started lingspeed and made lings and mutas of all his larvas. Of course if he had started the hydras already he had no other option but going down that road. Excellent build by Movie nevertheless.
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On June 19 2009 09:09 geegee1 wrote:
JD got rolled he never excepted this kind of build since well we dont even see this often so yea and in a way Movie got lucky since he when 5 hat hydra
There's something called scouting, right ?
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EPT
