Hey guys. I just watched Jaedong vs Movie Avalon MSL Round of 32 Day 3 game, and I wanted to discuss Movie's strat because I've never really seen it before(and plus, I'm a Protoss player XD)
So basically, I saw Movie go for a Dragoon army off of 5(maybe 6, I might've missed some gates) and just macro up into Jaedong's base while Jaedong was still drone whoring and just starting to make some hydras.
As Movie sent his goons to Jaedong's base to do some significant damage(hydra den down, 1 hatch down, spire down, and eventually the nat), he also teched up to DTs, HTs and archons. By the end of the game, there was absolutely nothing Jaedong could do; his lings were countered by DTs and archons, and Movie was still pumping goons.
Now, for some of my questions:
1. Could this build be map specific?
2. I've seen a variation of this build done by JF a few times, except JF had reavers in the mix, and he did 1gate tech instead of Movie's FE. Could this be viable in normal play like on ICCup?
3. While Movie had a definite unit advantage, Movie never expanded for a third. I think this is more of an all-in build, but I want to check w/ everyone. IS THIS an all-in build?
4. Was there anything Jaedong could have done to prevent this from happening? I don't know for sure, but it might have been due to Jaedong's scouting, or maybe the ovie got there too late. I do not know completely why Jaedong was over-run or what Jaedong could have done to prevent this.
I've done my best to follow TL.Net's thread guidelines, and if I did not follow some of the rules, I am sorry. I will make sure to edit it correctly.
Obviously. Jaedong is such an awesome player. Only an all-in build executed by Movie can defeat him. There is no other way he could have lost. Jaedong is the best player in the world and cannot lose straight up to a rookie, even on Heartbreak Ridge, the ultimate PvZ imba map where even Bisu can sometimes win against Jaedong, the greatest player in the world.
Jaedong could've responded in many ways to stop it, especially since he scouted some of critical elements in the build. He didn't have ling speed and was punished while waiting for it to upgrade. Normally he would've had speedlings but he went unupgraded hydras while waiting for hydra speed to finish. I believe he could've easily fended it off if he had placed a sunken or two while building up more hydras.
the big deal being the templar tech. If JD decided to do anything other than standard 5 hat hydra, movie would have gotten rolled over. Dragoons arn't very good against 3 hat muta, but JD didn't scout early enough - he was more focused on trying to save his ovies from the first corsair and/or didn't get the scouting information that he needed.
Well the point is that the dragoons will attack while the zerg player is droning up. Even 3 hatch builds have to drone up a little bit so if you can attack during that timing window, your in the clear
On June 19 2009 08:39 MoRe_mInErAls wrote: Obviously. Jaedong is such an awesome player. Only an all-in build executed by Movie can defeat him. There is no other way he could have lost. Jaedong is the best player in the world and cannot lose straight up to a rookie, even on Heartbreak Ridge, the ultimate PvZ imba map where even Bisu can sometimes win against Jaedong, the greatest player in the world.
On June 19 2009 08:47 Racenilatr wrote: Well the point is that the dragoons will attack while the zerg player is droning up. Even 3 hatch builds have to drone up a little bit so if you can attack during that timing window, your in the clear
Uh... no...
Movie's build was specifically tailored for timing on a 5 hatch hydra. Muta/Ling are effective much earlier than 5 hatch hydra because of the upgrades you need to put into Hydralisks (and the comparatively late den) to make them effective.
If JD had gone some sort of 3 hatch hydra or 3 hatch muta/ling then Movie would have gotten rolled. Goons are only good against Hydras when the Hydras are unupgraded... as they are in 5 hatch hydra until fairly late.
So, do you think this was a fluke on JD's part? As peanutter said, he scouted the "critical elements" of the build. But here, I have a few things that Jaedong might've thought when Jaedong scouted Movie's base w/ an ovie:
1. Oh there's his core, maybe his tech is inside his nat
2. There're 4 gates... maybe this is a fast 4gate 2archon push
Off topic for a second, but could JD's game w/ Bisu possibly have affected JD's play against Movie? I mean, I didn't see an ovie in Movie's base until later in the game when it was too late. But Ghostclaw said that JD was "more focused on trying to save his ovies from the first corsair and/or didn't get the scouting information that he needed".
I also found what peanutter said interesting: the fact that JD didn't have ling speed or hydra speed. In usual Zerg build timings(sorry, I have no idea about timings for Zerg, I'm still noob at PvZ...), is it normal not having ling speed or hydra speed by the time Movie made his first push?
I don't believe so. This build seems like it would work on any standardish map.
2. I've seen a variation of this build done by JF a few times, except JF had reavers in the mix, and he did 1gate tech instead of Movie's FE. Could this be viable in normal play like on ICCup?
Yes, I don't see why not.
4. Was there anything Jaedong could have done to prevent this from happening? I don't know for sure, but it might have been due to Jaedong's scouting, or maybe the ovie got there too late. I do not know completely why Jaedong was over-run or what Jaedong could have done to prevent this.
Jaedong should have sacrificed his Overlord to see what was happening in Movie's base and see the 5 gateways going up before any tech other than Core, and he could probably have seen the core spinning, which would indicate goon range being upgraded much earlier than normal.
Jaedong also didn't react correctly. First, he played greedy and didn't get ling speed (it is standard to get lingspeed with your second 100 gas), which greatly weakened the effectiveness of the preferred counter to mass goons, which would be mutaling+sunken colonies. I think that this led to his defeat. He instead had to go mass hydra without upgrades, and in low numbers goons>>>hydra without upgrades.
3. While Movie had a definite unit advantage, Movie never expanded for a third. I think this is more of an all-in build, but I want to check w/ everyone. IS THIS an all-in build?
Even if Jaedong HAD went mutaling+sunken colonies to defend against the mass goon and he did deflect the attack, I'm pretty sure Movie would have still been in a very good position. Jaedong probably would have had to transition into lurkerling since his hydra upgrades would be delayed and he would have a large amount of leftover zerglings. Movie's strategy, on the other hand, seems like it would transition beautifully into goon+temp, probably the best unit combo against lurkling+muta. Movie would have large army sooner than a Protoss usually would and he would be able to secure this third base relatively quickly while making it very hard for Jaedong to do so. Also, because he would have a large force of goons from the timing attack, he should have a decent amount of leftover minerals while building the Templar and he could build a lot of cannons at his third to fortify it.
Basically, I think this build is definitely not all-in and has a very strong mid/late game ahead of it.
On June 19 2009 08:56 Icarus wrote: So, do you think this was a fluke on JD's part? As peanutter said, he scouted the "critical elements" of the build. But here, I have a few things that Jaedong might've thought when Jaedong scouted Movie's base w/ an ovie:
1. Oh there's his core, maybe his tech is inside his nat
2. There're 4 gates... maybe this is a fast 4gate 2archon push
Off topic for a second, but could JD's game w/ Bisu possibly have affected JD's play against Movie? I mean, I didn't see an ovie in Movie's base until later in the game when it was too late. But Ghostclaw said that JD was "more focused on trying to save his ovies from the first corsair and/or didn't get the scouting information that he needed".
I also found what peanutter said interesting: the fact that JD didn't have ling speed or hydra speed. In usual Zerg build timings(sorry, I have no idea about timings for Zerg, I'm still noob at PvZ...), is it normal not having ling speed or hydra speed by the time Movie made his first push?
It depends. Hydra Speed for sure wouldn't have been done by then. I think you are underestimating how long it takes for 5 hatch hydra to get the ball rolling and how quick Movie's attack was.
If Jaedong was feeling greedy and wanted to crunch gas as much as possible I don't find it surprising that he didn't have ling speed. I also don't think that Jaedong could really have predicted this type of push. All he saw was an early goon and a spinning core... which on its own is not enough to warrant thinking a big Goon push is coming. It's really easy to say that Jaedong should have obviously expected a goon push with a spinning core and an early dragoon but in the heat of that moment it just doesn't seem like a wildly likely event.
By the time he even saw the important bits he had already invested gas into Hydra speed and his Larvae into Hydralisks... He didn't really have much of a choice but to defend with those hydralisks. Sunkens might have helped a bit but ranged goons are pretty good against those too.
JD got rolled he never excepted this kind of build since well we dont even see this often so yea and in a way Movie got lucky since he when 5 hat hydra
Had Jaedong scouted it before starting his 4th/5th hatch he probably could have just gone mutas to hold it off. But the main on Heartbreak is huge making that pretty difficult. Even once his 5th hatch is down he could still probably hold it off if he just started massing lings and making a sunken at each of his bases but his building placement screwed over any choice he had to get sunkens and just made it hard to fight the goons in general. Plus Jaedong was greedy and didn't research ling speed so that wasn't even an option for him. But thats just speculation. Movie was pretty greedy too and never added a second cannon but obviously he didn't get punished for that.
And if Jaedong had thrown a few lings into his nats (if he had ling speed) he would have seen the core spinning and lack of corsair he might be able to forsee this kind of attack in the future. I'm not sure if Movie just analyzed Jaedong's play so he knew he would not get ling speed, would send the OL out of his main early, and would place his buildings at his nat that way or if he was just lucky but it was still a pretty pimp rush. I think the build would have a horrible followup but I dunno.
On June 19 2009 09:09 geegee1 wrote: JD got rolled he never excepted this kind of build since well we dont even see this often so yea and in a way Movie got lucky since he when 5 hat hydra
He did not really get lucky that he did 5hat hydra since pretty much every Zerg do that nowadays, it was the fact that JD was greedy and skipped lingspeed that was lucky for him (or maybe he assumed JD would skip it). If JD had made speed like you usually do when playing this build he would have fended off that early attack really easily. (There is a reason you make speed after all, its to be safe from all kind of early attacks, including one like this)
So I just rewatched the game and I can`t really tell if JD had started building hydras or not from his hatches when he saw the first zeal and 3 goons move out since they spent a lot of time watching that army before they went back too JDs hatches. So I wonder if he had not started the hydras if he could simply have canceled speed and +1 and started lingspeed and made lings and mutas of all his larvas. Of course if he had started the hydras already he had no other option but going down that road. Excellent build by Movie nevertheless.
On June 19 2009 09:09 geegee1 wrote: JD got rolled he never excepted this kind of build since well we dont even see this often so yea and in a way Movie got lucky since he when 5 hat hydra
answers: 1) not really map specific although when going for this type of timing attack a shorter rush distance can be helpful 2) JF and some other gamers go for a dragoon reaver timing attack which does not transition into the late game well at all. 3) it isn't all in because he gets useful tech which can transition later into the late game. it is a timing attack abusing the use of dragoon range before hydra range with the drawback of having a slower 3rd base. 4) if he had been able to see the 4 gateways morphing in movie's main he would have been able to do a few counters: faster ling speed and just make a crap load of them, muta builds would rape this because of the lack of corsairs and with dragoons only doing 10 damage vs mutas = more rape. also JD was super greedy and waits till its too late to place sunkens. even without sacrificing an overlord JD and progamer zergs should know something is up when they see no corsairs
On June 19 2009 09:34 Shikyo wrote: Maybe JD forgot that this build goes into a 3h muta if they don't get a sair.
JD had ran all his lords away before he could see Movies tech.
progamers should know that if the sair is like 10 seconds late, it won't come at all... they are not going to miss pylons or something retarded like that
jaedong didn't scout it u see he moves his ovie out of the base cause of a dragoon coming to scare it out i think then he tries to sneak back in while he is finally starting to realize what is going on he starts to mass up units but its too late. jaedong build a spire first expecting to be able to use either scourge or muta but the timing of this weird push which he didn't discover in time he trys to start massing hydras but to no avail. at least thats the way i felt about it. I don't think movie would have beaten jaedong straight up at this particular time in his career he seems quite strong now. well played by movie jaedong probably should have sacked the overlord to discover what was going on. i think the loss of 100 minerals is a better exchange then getting run over by a goon push hehe
Movie's attack was not all-in. Yes, of course it was a timing attack specifically timed vs 5 hatch hydra. But its not all-in anymore than +1 no-stargate speedzeal is all-in, really you can't call anything off a FE all-in, thats just abusing the term. Just say its non standard.
Good timing attacks don't have standard hard counters, only soft counters. That is why they're stable strategies.
I disagree that 3 hatch muta would 'roll' this build, although of course it would do better. If Movie had scouted that possibility then 2 cannons in his min line and the dragoons would have kept him safe even with a late templar tech. Mass ranged goons is not weak vs 3 hatch mutalisk and can certainly fend it off, of course he would be pinned in his base for longer.
On June 19 2009 11:17 LeperKahn wrote: God damn this is why I keep being raped by what I thought were noob protosses on iccup. They all go for this early dragoon push and I get destroyed!
All these new fangled strategies are always used against zergs =[.
Much-style extremely goon-heavy builds have started becoming more popular now to deal with good hydra micro (against storm and speedlots) with the 5hatch build (and its transition into hydralurker)... this is taking that concept to an extreme, by exploiting an upgrade + production timing hole.
i think the best thing jaedong or any zerg in this position could do is just scout for gateway count. if a number less than 5 (additional + the first one) are added at the same time, its reasonable to assume some kind of 5 hat hydra direct counter is coming. its just such a popular build these days. and imo the best way to stop it, is just to cut probes. you may not be able to support all 5 hatches at this point, but maybe you can cancel one and go 4 hatch or something. the fact is, if you can hang on to map control after protoss goes for this sniper time of timing attack, you'll be comfortable to continue with econ and have at least a small advantage by this point in the game.
its all timing... i think a few seconds late, had jaedong gotten a few more dras out of the eggs, its GG for the 3 goons. and goons suck vs hydras... 5 gate v 5 hatch...
you should know how to play all three races. i mean, you don't JUST practice ONE RACE, right?
you have an excuse if you're a newby, but if you want to get good at starcraft, even if its just getting good at one race, you should play the opposite match ups as well, just to get a feel for the match up as a whole.
i mean the game has been out for a decade right, i wouldn't be surprised if there aren't people in korea who have all 9 match-ups that are, as they call it, "iccup A level." i mean come on, it's KOREA, and the game has been out for TEN YEARS, right? there SHOULD be some people who are "A level" in all 9 match-ups right?
On June 19 2009 10:32 VIB wrote: I was under the impression that it only worked because JD was too focused on hydras and didn't switch to lings. No?
this was my understanding also. I suppose JD decided to just go hydras since he didn't have ling speed researched. I was fucking pulling my hair out during the 3-5 minutes of goons rallied to JD's nat killing hydras as they pop out of their eggs. PURE GOONS! HOW DO YOU NOT MAKE LINGS TO COUNTER PURE GOONS?!?!
On June 19 2009 13:27 Mania[K]al wrote: I like how when JD loses there has to be a 3 page thread to discuss it.
JD fanbois make me sick.
Yeah, people wondering in the strategy forum how movie's attack completely assraped one of the best players in the world would make anybody sick. Those fanboy bastards!
On June 19 2009 10:32 VIB wrote: I was under the impression that it only worked because JD was too focused on hydras and didn't switch to lings. No?
this was my understanding also. I suppose JD decided to just go hydras since he didn't have ling speed researched. I was fucking pulling my hair out during the 3-5 minutes of goons rallied to JD's nat killing hydras as they pop out of their eggs. PURE GOONS! HOW DO YOU NOT MAKE LINGS TO COUNTER PURE GOONS?!?!
You need to have the lings up and running, and you need speed.
If JD tries to mass lings when the 3 goons have arrived at his nat, he is going to make like 6 lings at a time. Lings are terrible when they arrive piecemeal, 24 lings would slaughter the goons, 24 lings in waves of 6 would all die and kill like 1 dragoon.
Jaedong should have reacted to the scouting information he did have. Movie hid the lack of templar/stargate, but the extra goons (3 early) and a spinning core with no sair that Jaedong did see should have given him enough of a hint to prepare.
On June 19 2009 13:27 Mania[K]al wrote: I like how when JD loses there has to be a 3 page thread to discuss it.
JD fanbois make me sick.
Yeah, people wondering in the strategy forum how movie's attack completely assraped one of the best players in the world would make anybody sick. Those fanboy bastards!
i dont know what u'r talking about ??? i thought this was the registration of a jaedong's look a like contest lol
This is not the first time that Jaedong has lost when going 5-Hatch Hydra against a "random" Protoss. I seem to recall that Tempest bounced him out of GOM Season 2 with a timing attack. It wasn't 5-gate Goon in that case, but it was a well-executed timing attack. I'm not certain, but I think he got Jaedong with it twice.
For some reason, Jaedong can be weak to these mid-grade Protosses that bring some kind of special anti-5-Hatch build.
On June 19 2009 13:27 Mania[K]al wrote: I like how when JD loses there has to be a 3 page thread to discuss it.
JD fanbois make me sick.
Nice and subtle, according to fanatacist's guide, which type of troll is this one?
On June 19 2009 13:42 NicolBolas wrote: This is not the first time that Jaedong has lost when going 5-Hatch Hydra against a "random" Protoss. I seem to recall that Tempest bounced him out of GOM Season 2 with a timing attack. It wasn't 5-gate Goon in that case, but it was a well-executed timing attack. I'm not certain, but I think he got Jaedong with it twice.
For some reason, Jaedong can be weak to these mid-grade Protosses that bring some kind of special anti-5-Hatch build.
IIRC, it was the 4 gate 2 archon +1 speedzealot attack that was so popular during that time and is still being extensively used even now!
On June 19 2009 13:40 NovaTheFeared wrote: Jaedong should have reacted to the scouting information he did have. Movie hid the lack of templar/stargate, but the extra goons (3 early) and a spinning core with no sair that Jaedong did see should have given him enough of a hint to prepare.
I'm pretty sure he didn't see the core. If he did, then his lackadaisical response is pretty puzzling.
On June 19 2009 13:40 NovaTheFeared wrote: Jaedong should have reacted to the scouting information he did have. Movie hid the lack of templar/stargate, but the extra goons (3 early) and a spinning core with no sair that Jaedong did see should have given him enough of a hint to prepare.
At 4:58 in the vod, Movie sends a dragoon back towards his main just as the scouting ovie flew away. Little later at 5:20 he sends the goon to the ramp above his natural. There's no way JD could have scouted the extra gates or the lack of a SG.
I think there were several reason he couldn't catch on to his timing attack of Movie.
1. Movie's building placement was very good; thus, no zergling could snick by to find out.
2. Like the Nal ra pointed out in the commentating, he continuously pumped probes from nexus. If he didn't there was a good change JD could suspect a timing push.
Builds like this and the potential of them make protoss a strong race. I think it is ok is jaedong gets beat strategically, I think it means starcraft can still be about creative plays and not additions too standard play!
To the people saying it wasn't all-in, I agree, but I also think Movie would have been quite a bit behind had he not succeeded. Not because I believe he cut probes or anything for the attack, but because he invested so much money in goons. After a 5-hatch hydra gets going, you don't want a pure goon/goon heavy army. All that gas could have been additional templar, and he also didn't get a stargate so his map awareness would have gone down a lot.
It wasn't all in, but the money could have been better spent getting other things. Like everyone else said, it was definitely a timing attack to hit JD right before his hydra upgrades kicked in.
Movie beating JD isnt a shocker guys...hes only done it what like 4 times now? And Jaedong only BARELY beat Movie in GOM. Hes pretty good vs zerg and a nice rival for JD.
On June 19 2009 16:53 FabledIntegral wrote: To the people saying it wasn't all-in, I agree, but I also think Movie would have been quite a bit behind had he not succeeded. Not because I believe he cut probes or anything for the attack, but because he invested so much money in goons. After a 5-hatch hydra gets going, you don't want a pure goon/goon heavy army. All that gas could have been additional templar, and he also didn't get a stargate so his map awareness would have gone down a lot.
Why is a goon-heavy build weak to hydras? I've always found the opposite to be the case, with their range advantage. (Obviously, with 6-12 zealots so the hydras can't rush the dragoons.) And if Movie saves 250 gas on corsair (and possibly 150 on zealot speed, for a while), he'll be fine for templars. (Of course, that leaves him vulnerable to a mutalisk backstab, but you can't have everything.)
On June 19 2009 16:53 FabledIntegral wrote: To the people saying it wasn't all-in, I agree, but I also think Movie would have been quite a bit behind had he not succeeded. Not because I believe he cut probes or anything for the attack, but because he invested so much money in goons. After a 5-hatch hydra gets going, you don't want a pure goon/goon heavy army. All that gas could have been additional templar, and he also didn't get a stargate so his map awareness would have gone down a lot.
Why is a goon-heavy build weak to hydras? I've always found the opposite to be the case, with their range advantage. (Obviously, with 6-12 zealots so the hydras can't rush the dragoons.) And if Movie saves 250 gas on corsair (and possibly 150 on zealot speed, for a while), he'll be fine for templars. (Of course, that leaves him vulnerable to a mutalisk backstab, but you can't have everything.)
Where is he going to magically conjure 6-12 zealots like that? If that attack fails you can be damned sure that the zerg is going to counter just about right away. If he doesn't replace the goons the hydras will absolutely destroy slow zealots.
Goon heavy builds get raped by upgraded hydras because of explosive damage and the fact that hydras are medium units and quick little bastards with speed upgrade. Goons barely have a range upgrade with Hydras also upgraded by the way.
I assumed the dragoons either cause a lot of damage, or escape largely intact. Obviously Movie's screwed if he loses all his units for nothing. (The only risk at this stage of the game is a large number of speedlings getting very good surrounds. Or dragoon paralysis glitch.)
Goon range is significantly more than hydra, (heck, goliath range is a tiny bit better than hydra, and that difference makes a huge deal for hydra vs. goliath) and they're fast enough to exploit it. Hydras have twice the attack rate of dragoons, but only if you let them. (If the dragoon player needs to hold ground, that's where zealots come in.) And he doesn't have to hold on particularly long to finish his DT/Templar tech.
1. ohm, there are certain maps this is impossible, but not that map specific imo 2. JF and others used mostly 1 base reaver goon, or FE reaver goon (ala Stork), this is different 3. Yes it is an allin, if your goons fail you're dead. And by fail i mean you get outnumbered even onece. Id you lose the advantage you probably lose all your goons, and the game. It's really timing dependent, if you can copy it it will, work if you just say " oh i go goons cuz they might work" i dont think it will. Basicly the idea is to fight with range upgraded goons against speed-nonrange hydras. 4. I'm not completly sure when JD scouted the 5 gate allin, but i think he already started hydra production (+drones) and did not save up larvae. One thing which rapes this really hard is mutaling. He gone for hydras, he probably could have held that off with 2 sunks, but Movie's micro was ok, so i dont know, but i think he sohuld have beat him
On June 19 2009 16:53 FabledIntegral wrote: To the people saying it wasn't all-in, I agree, but I also think Movie would have been quite a bit behind had he not succeeded.
That tends to be true of most strategies. Most of the time, in Starcraft, if an attack fails you are usually behind. It's uncommon for a player to completely get destroyed in an attack yet still manage to come out ahead.
So the logic that "it's all in because if Movie failed the attack, he would've been significantly behind" doesn't really work. That's like saying 3 hatch muta is all in if you lose all your mutas and do zero damage to Terran.
On June 19 2009 16:53 FabledIntegral wrote: To the people saying it wasn't all-in, I agree, but I also think Movie would have been quite a bit behind had he not succeeded.
So the logic that "it's all in because if Movie failed the attack, he would've been significantly behind" doesn't really work. That's like saying 3 hatch muta is all in if you lose all your mutas and do zero damage to Terran.
well its pretty much true because you lose map control and taking a 3rd becomes really hard and you are weak until swarm.
On June 19 2009 18:13 mog87 wrote: Movie beating JD isnt a shocker guys...hes only done it what like 4 times now? And Jaedong only BARELY beat Movie in GOM. Hes pretty good vs zerg and a nice rival for JD.
they are maybe like 3-2 for Movie, he is good but in those 2 games he lost, JD destroyed him straight up, Movie couldnt even exit his natural
On June 19 2009 09:04 Racenilatr wrote: This is definitley not an all in build
idk i think it kinda is, it was strictly pure goons, if jaedong reacted correctly and counted that he woulda most likely rolled right into movies nat. with no temp tech units to defend. he would ahve to get tons of cannons giving jaedong free map control.
Watch that game, watch the other Movie wins vs. JD, watch that game again with Husky commentating and you'll understand why he got stomped. Sunkens? Speed lings? What? I'm JD, every protoss will play like Bisu and let us have a nice fun macro war with screaming fangurls and breathless commentators, I don't need base defenses early owait it's movie, dam it.
JD got nervous and caught off guard, if he had done lurker instead of speed upgrade he could've defendend himself ...since he had that many goons, he could assume that he sacrificed tech, so, wouldn't have observers when well protected, it was just harrassing with mutas :\
all you have to do against this goon build is make 16 or so speedlings, before you start making hydras with your 5 hatch hydra build.... 16 speedlings will defeat any initial goon attack, and then you'll have the hydras flowing in, (as well as pumping a few extra drones so your 5 hatch econ can keep up with their FE build) . hydra is a pretty hard counter to goons.
On June 19 2009 22:12 Shuray wrote: JD got nervous and caught off guard, if he had done lurker instead of speed upgrade he could've defendend himself ...since he had that many goons, he could assume that he sacrificed tech, so, wouldn't have observers when well protected, it was just harrassing with mutas :\
How do come to the conclusion that nerves had anything to do with it? You want him to go lurker? When exactly did jaedong have the time to do this? He was extremely low on units as is.
On June 19 2009 20:05 Severedevil wrote: I assumed the dragoons either cause a lot of damage, or escape largely intact. Obviously Movie's screwed if he loses all his units for nothing. (The only risk at this stage of the game is a large number of speedlings getting very good surrounds. Or dragoon paralysis glitch.)
Goon range is significantly more than hydra, (heck, goliath range is a tiny bit better than hydra, and that difference makes a huge deal for hydra vs. goliath) and they're fast enough to exploit it. Hydras have twice the attack rate of dragoons, but only if you let them. (If the dragoon player needs to hold ground, that's where zealots come in.) And he doesn't have to hold on particularly long to finish his DT/Templar tech.
Normally, pure hydras destroy pure goon/zealot, you need some type of tech unit, storm or reaver or something. The only reason goons or zealots or a combination of them beat pure hydra is because the zerg player screwed his timing or was hurt badly before that. Sure, you can theorycraft all day about how goons > hydras, but in the thousands of PvZ games, 99% of the time hydras rape basic gateway units.
On June 19 2009 18:13 mog87 wrote: Movie beating JD isnt a shocker guys...hes only done it what like 4 times now? And Jaedong only BARELY beat Movie in GOM. Hes pretty good vs zerg and a nice rival for JD.
they are maybe like 3-2 for Movie, he is good but in those 2 games he lost, JD destroyed him straight up, Movie couldnt even exit his natural
Ye, basic Jaedong losing the first game, Movie is gonna feel his wrath after he destroys Leta. Or atleast this is how i dream it goes ;D
On June 19 2009 18:13 mog87 wrote: Movie beating JD isnt a shocker guys...hes only done it what like 4 times now? And Jaedong only BARELY beat Movie in GOM. Hes pretty good vs zerg and a nice rival for JD.
they are maybe like 3-2 for Movie, he is good but in those 2 games he lost, JD destroyed him straight up, Movie couldnt even exit his natural
Ye, basic Jaedong losing the first game, Movie is gonna feel his wrath after he destroys Leta. Or atleast this is how i dream it goes ;D
On June 19 2009 16:53 FabledIntegral wrote: To the people saying it wasn't all-in, I agree, but I also think Movie would have been quite a bit behind had he not succeeded.
So the logic that "it's all in because if Movie failed the attack, he would've been significantly behind" doesn't really work. That's like saying 3 hatch muta is all in if you lose all your mutas and do zero damage to Terran.
well its pretty much true because you lose map control and taking a 3rd becomes really hard and you are weak until swarm.
3 hatch muta still isn't all-in, thats the point
Very few things are all-in
REGULAR TIMING ATTACKS ARE NOT ALL-IN
Guess what, if its a good timing attack it is really hard for it to fail SO BAD that you basically lost the game. Even if JD defends perfectly, he has to give up a lot of econ and mess up his timings to do it, sure he might come out ahead, very ahead if movie did an epic fail on the attack, but the game is not over. Quite often he will defend while taking some or a lot of damage, at which point the game might even up. Or in this case, the timing attack hits so well and his defense is not ready at all so that Movie just wins.
a timing attack off a FAST EXPAND build is now supposedly all-in... just think about that for 2 seconds.
The strat forum has an abundance of players who treat anything thats not ololmacrowarz as "all-in" or "cheese", its disgusting
On June 19 2009 20:05 Severedevil wrote: I assumed the dragoons either cause a lot of damage, or escape largely intact. Obviously Movie's screwed if he loses all his units for nothing. (The only risk at this stage of the game is a large number of speedlings getting very good surrounds. Or dragoon paralysis glitch.)
Goon range is significantly more than hydra, (heck, goliath range is a tiny bit better than hydra, and that difference makes a huge deal for hydra vs. goliath) and they're fast enough to exploit it. Hydras have twice the attack rate of dragoons, but only if you let them. (If the dragoon player needs to hold ground, that's where zealots come in.) And he doesn't have to hold on particularly long to finish his DT/Templar tech.
Normally, pure hydras destroy pure goon/zealot, you need some type of tech unit, storm or reaver or something. The only reason goons or zealots or a combination of them beat pure hydra is because the zerg player screwed his timing or was hurt badly before that. Sure, you can theorycraft all day about how goons > hydras, but in the thousands of PvZ games, 99% of the time hydras rape basic gateway units.
On June 19 2009 20:05 Severedevil wrote: I assumed the dragoons either cause a lot of damage, or escape largely intact. Obviously Movie's screwed if he loses all his units for nothing. (The only risk at this stage of the game is a large number of speedlings getting very good surrounds. Or dragoon paralysis glitch.)
Goon range is significantly more than hydra, (heck, goliath range is a tiny bit better than hydra, and that difference makes a huge deal for hydra vs. goliath) and they're fast enough to exploit it. Hydras have twice the attack rate of dragoons, but only if you let them. (If the dragoon player needs to hold ground, that's where zealots come in.) And he doesn't have to hold on particularly long to finish his DT/Templar tech.
Look when it's upgraded hydralisks vs upgraded dragoons hydralisks are going to win. Hydralisks build faster, they move fast, and they are much cheaper.
When it's unupgraded hydralisks vs upgraded dragoons it's a different story... if only because the dragoons simply outrange the hydralisks so badly AS WELL as being faster than them
On June 20 2009 11:35 Mania[K]al wrote: JEADONG LOST?
OH MY GOD SOMEONE START A THREAD, QUICK!
wad
Anyway, copypastaing from the Tourneys thread.
Okay, I just watched Jaedong vs Movie and here's my thoughts:
Jaedong went for a very standard build, but his greatest fault here lies in not getting speed upgrade for lings. Also, Movie prepared a very timing-precise build. If you notice the timing when Movie starts to push out with his small 3 goon 1 zealot army, Jaedong was just about to finish his 4th and 5th hatcheries. That meant that was like, 30 seconds before his macro would have kicked in, and at least one of the hydra upgrades would have been done. Basically, Movie attacked Jaedong's Achilles' Heel, the small timing window where Jaedong was on the verge of having his macro explode and hydras flood out. Jaedong didn't get any sunkens, because 1) getting sunkens would mean his economy will be hurt (less drones, and he can't pump drones because he needed hydras/lings more) and 2) sunkens die very fast to dragoons. Also, Movie kept pumping probes from his two nexuses, which made Jaedong think that Movie wasn't really focusing on army, and instead was going for a standard build. This thinking led Jaedong not to get speed ling upgrades, and by the time speed upgrade was done, Movie had already gathered a critical mass of dragoons and had teched to templar archives, thus getting DTs and archon reinforcements later on and taking the game.
On June 19 2009 10:32 VIB wrote: I was under the impression that it only worked because JD was too focused on hydras and didn't switch to lings. No?
this was my understanding also. I suppose JD decided to just go hydras since he didn't have ling speed researched. I was fucking pulling my hair out during the 3-5 minutes of goons rallied to JD's nat killing hydras as they pop out of their eggs. PURE GOONS! HOW DO YOU NOT MAKE LINGS TO COUNTER PURE GOONS?!?!
You need to have the lings up and running, and you need speed.
If JD tries to mass lings when the 3 goons have arrived at his nat, he is going to make like 6 lings at a time. Lings are terrible when they arrive piecemeal, 24 lings would slaughter the goons, 24 lings in waves of 6 would all die and kill like 1 dragoon.
scouting doesn't matter... when movie had the 3rd goon out, he started moving. and jaedong already started massing dras. again, had movie arrive a few seconds later with the 3 goon/1 zeal... when jaedong massed just a few 2-3 more dras, which is like 10 seconds maybe. the goons will not do as much damage.
and on top of that, u need perfect micro/goon pump/macro to win with this. and if u arrive with 3 goons and see 6 dras, its gg...
not a valid strat, a very hard one that depend on pin point timing, because like a previous poster said, 99% of the time hydras will rape this kind of push.
Starcraft is a game of strategy, and Movie's timing push was the counter to Jaedong's 5 hatch hydra build. All Zerg players know that there is a window of vulnerability in 5 hatch hydra. Around 30 supply when you're just adding your fourth and fifth hatcheries, the FE forge Protoss player can very likely have something along the lines of 6-7 zealots. To combat this, Zerg players typically get zergling speed and possibly a sunken or two. Jaedong had neither and faced dragoons.
I don't know why Jaedong skipped speed. It was clumsy. It was a mistake that I would have pulled against a protoss player. Had he regarded the two extra oddly-timed gateways as a threat and just upgraded ling speed this game would have been a joke. He didn't though, and because of that, he lost. He's a stronger player now.
People need to admit that JD lost against a valid strategy. It wasn't a GREAT strategy, but it wasn't an all-in cheese like the hardcore JD fans are insisting.
but the window of opportunity is sooo small, and the need for perfect micro is so critical for P, than it is for the zerg. defending is always easier. and i think had jaedong put down a sunk right away, it would have put an end to it as well.
Like Tasteless and SDM have mentioned though, JD loves playing games where he squeezes out little extra advantages like this. Its a big part of his playstyle, he walks the razor's edge and often discards the safer move in favor of a riskier, more advantageous move.
Of course from time to time it bites him in the ass, especially as opponents pick up on it and try to attack this weakness specifically.
On June 20 2009 12:44 Raidy wrote: Starcraft is a game of strategy, and Movie's timing push was the counter to Jaedong's 5 hatch hydra build. All Zerg players know that there is a window of vulnerability in 5 hatch hydra. Around 30 supply when you're just adding your fourth and fifth hatcheries, the FE forge Protoss player can very likely have something along the lines of 6-7 zealots. To combat this, Zerg players typically get zergling speed and possibly a sunken or two. Jaedong had neither and faced dragoons.
I don't know why Jaedong skipped speed. It was clumsy. It was a mistake that I would have pulled against a protoss player. Had he regarded the two extra oddly-timed gateways as a threat and just upgraded ling speed this game would have been a joke. He didn't though, and because of that, he lost. He's a stronger player now.
People need to admit that JD lost against a valid strategy. It wasn't a GREAT strategy, but it wasn't an all-in cheese like the hardcore JD fans are insisting.
Good post and although most of it had already been posted you put it together well.
On June 19 2009 08:39 MoRe_mInErAls wrote: Obviously. Jaedong is such an awesome player. Only an all-in build executed by Movie can defeat him. There is no other way he could have lost. Jaedong is the best player in the world and cannot lose straight up to a rookie, even on Heartbreak Ridge, the ultimate PvZ imba map where even Bisu can sometimes win against Jaedong, the greatest player in the world.
sometimes I question whether or not people realize what movie did. I thought movie warped in the core late, didn't start upgrading until the ovie left. While keeping his probe alive long enough to see jaedong go three hatch and see hydras. Info on movies part played a vital role in pulling out his victory, and jaedong's scouting costed him the game.
Movie isn't a random toss, and he has taken games off jaedong before. The true test is coming when he has to face him again.
I think that jae just lost through a strait up BO miscalculation here, kind of like 9 pool beats 12 pool, movie beat jaedong. Its really nothing special except for the fact that Jaedong is such an amazing player to lose in such an ordinary way.
Jaedong was too ballsy and try to gain critical mass of hydras to beat those dragoons when he should have massed lings instead. You need more hydras than only a few if you are fighting a dragoon army.
He could have waited a little before engaging with dragoons. imho it was a pure micro error that cost him the game.
On June 19 2009 08:39 MoRe_mInErAls wrote: Obviously. Jaedong is such an awesome player. Only an all-in build executed by Movie can defeat him. There is no other way he could have lost. Jaedong is the best player in the world and cannot lose straight up to a rookie, even on Heartbreak Ridge, the ultimate PvZ imba map where even Bisu can sometimes win against Jaedong, the greatest player in the world.
On July 06 2009 07:29 Avidkeystamper wrote: ...all the time?
mh like his last game against stork? or that garden of god game vs movie @gom or his WL finals game against iris or his WL finals game against skyhigh
afaik JD is the reason why many Zerg started playing more aggressive. Sure he still plays standard often cause why not when your clearly the superior player but he still plays tricky quite often, especially for an S class player.
EPT
