[Spoiler] Movie vs Jaedong Discussion - Page 5

On June 19 2009 20:19 DM20 wrote:


well its pretty much true because you lose map control and taking a 3rd becomes really hard and you are weak until swarm.

On June 19 2009 22:37 Hot_Bid wrote:

Normally, pure hydras destroy pure goon/zealot, you need some type of tech unit, storm or reaver or something. The only reason goons or zealots or a combination of them beat pure hydra is because the zerg player screwed his timing or was hurt badly before that. Sure, you can theorycraft all day about how goons > hydras, but in the thousands of PvZ games, 99% of the time hydras rape basic gateway units.

On June 19 2009 20:05 Severedevil wrote:
I assumed the dragoons either cause a lot of damage, or escape largely intact. Obviously Movie's screwed if he loses all his units for nothing. (The only risk at this stage of the game is a large number of speedlings getting very good surrounds. Or dragoon paralysis glitch.)

Goon range is significantly more than hydra, (heck, goliath range is a tiny bit better than hydra, and that difference makes a huge deal for hydra vs. goliath) and they're fast enough to exploit it. Hydras have twice the attack rate of dragoons, but only if you let them. (If the dragoon player needs to hold ground, that's where zealots come in.) And he doesn't have to hold on particularly long to finish his DT/Templar tech.

On June 20 2009 11:35 Mania[K]al wrote:
JEADONG LOST?

OH MY GOD SOMEONE START A THREAD, QUICK!

Okay, I just watched Jaedong vs Movie and here's my thoughts:

Jaedong went for a very standard build, but his greatest fault here lies in not getting speed upgrade for lings. Also, Movie prepared a very timing-precise build. If you notice the timing when Movie starts to push out with his small 3 goon 1 zealot army, Jaedong was just about to finish his 4th and 5th hatcheries. That meant that was like, 30 seconds before his macro would have kicked in, and at least one of the hydra upgrades would have been done. Basically, Movie attacked Jaedong's Achilles' Heel, the small timing window where Jaedong was on the verge of having his macro explode and hydras flood out. Jaedong didn't get any sunkens, because 1) getting sunkens would mean his economy will be hurt (less drones, and he can't pump drones because he needed hydras/lings more) and 2) sunkens die very fast to dragoons. Also, Movie kept pumping probes from his two nexuses, which made Jaedong think that Movie wasn't really focusing on army, and instead was going for a standard build. This thinking led Jaedong not to get speed ling upgrades, and by the time speed upgrade was done, Movie had already gathered a critical mass of dragoons and had teched to templar archives, thus getting DTs and archon reinforcements later on and taking the game.

On June 19 2009 13:40 FieryBalrog wrote:


You need to have the lings up and running, and you need speed.

If JD tries to mass lings when the 3 goons have arrived at his nat, he is going to make like 6 lings at a time. Lings are terrible when they arrive piecemeal, 24 lings would slaughter the goons, 24 lings in waves of 6 would all die and kill like 1 dragoon.

On June 20 2009 12:44 Raidy wrote:
Starcraft is a game of strategy, and Movie's timing push was the counter to Jaedong's 5 hatch hydra build. All Zerg players know that there is a window of vulnerability in 5 hatch hydra. Around 30 supply when you're just adding your fourth and fifth hatcheries, the FE forge Protoss player can very likely have something along the lines of 6-7 zealots. To combat this, Zerg players typically get zergling speed and possibly a sunken or two. Jaedong had neither and faced dragoons.

I don't know why Jaedong skipped speed. It was clumsy. It was a mistake that I would have pulled against a protoss player. Had he regarded the two extra oddly-timed gateways as a threat and just upgraded ling speed this game would have been a joke. He didn't though, and because of that, he lost. He's a stronger player now.

People need to admit that JD lost against a valid strategy. It wasn't a GREAT strategy, but it wasn't an all-in cheese like the hardcore JD fans are insisting.

On June 19 2009 08:39 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
Obviously. Jaedong is such an awesome player. Only an all-in build executed by Movie can defeat him. There is no other way he could have lost. Jaedong is the best player in the world and cannot lose straight up to a rookie, even on Heartbreak Ridge, the ultimate PvZ imba map where even Bisu can sometimes win against Jaedong, the greatest player in the world.

On June 20 2009 15:17 Raithed wrote:

i laughed so hard.