EPT[Spoiler] Movie vs Jaedong Discussion - Page 4
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On June 19 2009 16:53 FabledIntegral wrote: To the people saying it wasn't all-in, I agree, but I also think Movie would have been quite a bit behind had he not succeeded. Not because I believe he cut probes or anything for the attack, but because he invested so much money in goons. After a 5-hatch hydra gets going, you don't want a pure goon/goon heavy army. All that gas could have been additional templar, and he also didn't get a stargate so his map awareness would have gone down a lot. Why is a goon-heavy build weak to hydras? I've always found the opposite to be the case, with their range advantage. (Obviously, with 6-12 zealots so the hydras can't rush the dragoons.) And if Movie saves 250 gas on corsair (and possibly 150 on zealot speed, for a while), he'll be fine for templars. (Of course, that leaves him vulnerable to a mutalisk backstab, but you can't have everything.) | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On June 19 2009 19:21 Severedevil wrote: Why is a goon-heavy build weak to hydras? I've always found the opposite to be the case, with their range advantage. (Obviously, with 6-12 zealots so the hydras can't rush the dragoons.) And if Movie saves 250 gas on corsair (and possibly 150 on zealot speed, for a while), he'll be fine for templars. (Of course, that leaves him vulnerable to a mutalisk backstab, but you can't have everything.) Where is he going to magically conjure 6-12 zealots like that? If that attack fails you can be damned sure that the zerg is going to counter just about right away. If he doesn't replace the goons the hydras will absolutely destroy slow zealots. Goon heavy builds get raped by upgraded hydras because of explosive damage and the fact that hydras are medium units and quick little bastards with speed upgrade. Goons barely have a range upgrade with Hydras also upgraded by the way. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
Goon range is significantly more than hydra, (heck, goliath range is a tiny bit better than hydra, and that difference makes a huge deal for hydra vs. goliath) and they're fast enough to exploit it. Hydras have twice the attack rate of dragoons, but only if you let them. (If the dragoon player needs to hold ground, that's where zealots come in.) And he doesn't have to hold on particularly long to finish his DT/Templar tech. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
2. JF and others used mostly 1 base reaver goon, or FE reaver goon (ala Stork), this is different 3. Yes it is an allin, if your goons fail you're dead. And by fail i mean you get outnumbered even onece. Id you lose the advantage you probably lose all your goons, and the game. It's really timing dependent, if you can copy it it will, work if you just say " oh i go goons cuz they might work" i dont think it will. Basicly the idea is to fight with range upgraded goons against speed-nonrange hydras. 4. I'm not completly sure when JD scouted the 5 gate allin, but i think he already started hydra production (+drones) and did not save up larvae. One thing which rapes this really hard is mutaling. He gone for hydras, he probably could have held that off with 2 sunks, but Movie's micro was ok, so i dont know, but i think he sohuld have beat him | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13090 Posts
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On June 19 2009 16:53 FabledIntegral wrote: To the people saying it wasn't all-in, I agree, but I also think Movie would have been quite a bit behind had he not succeeded. That tends to be true of most strategies. Most of the time, in Starcraft, if an attack fails you are usually behind. It's uncommon for a player to completely get destroyed in an attack yet still manage to come out ahead. So the logic that "it's all in because if Movie failed the attack, he would've been significantly behind" doesn't really work. That's like saying 3 hatch muta is all in if you lose all your mutas and do zero damage to Terran. | ||
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DM20
Canada544 Posts
On June 19 2009 20:14 Kyo Yuy wrote: So the logic that "it's all in because if Movie failed the attack, he would've been significantly behind" doesn't really work. That's like saying 3 hatch muta is all in if you lose all your mutas and do zero damage to Terran. well its pretty much true because you lose map control and taking a 3rd becomes really hard and you are weak until swarm. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Art.FeeL
1163 Posts
On June 19 2009 18:13 mog87 wrote: Movie beating JD isnt a shocker guys...hes only done it what like 4 times now? And Jaedong only BARELY beat Movie in GOM. Hes pretty good vs zerg and a nice rival for JD. they are maybe like 3-2 for Movie, he is good but in those 2 games he lost, JD destroyed him straight up, Movie couldnt even exit his natural | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13922 Posts
On June 19 2009 09:04 Racenilatr wrote: This is definitley not an all in build idk i think it kinda is, it was strictly pure goons, if jaedong reacted correctly and counted that he woulda most likely rolled right into movies nat. with no temp tech units to defend. he would ahve to get tons of cannons giving jaedong free map control. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
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Vrac
Poland52 Posts
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=15034 I prepared my defences for standard +1 zeal push but he actually went goons and eventually runed me over with them , how - idk T_T | ||
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Shuray
Brazil642 Posts
when well protected, it was just harrassing with mutas :\ | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On June 19 2009 22:12 Shuray wrote: JD got nervous and caught off guard, if he had done lurker instead of speed upgrade he could've defendend himself ...since he had that many goons, he could assume that he sacrificed tech, so, wouldn't have observers when well protected, it was just harrassing with mutas :\ How do come to the conclusion that nerves had anything to do with it? You want him to go lurker? When exactly did jaedong have the time to do this? He was extremely low on units as is. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
He didnt just 1a and rally over, if his dragoon micro slipped just a little bit or the timing came 15seconds late, it would have been a fail. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
On June 19 2009 20:05 Severedevil wrote: I assumed the dragoons either cause a lot of damage, or escape largely intact. Obviously Movie's screwed if he loses all his units for nothing. (The only risk at this stage of the game is a large number of speedlings getting very good surrounds. Or dragoon paralysis glitch.) Goon range is significantly more than hydra, (heck, goliath range is a tiny bit better than hydra, and that difference makes a huge deal for hydra vs. goliath) and they're fast enough to exploit it. Hydras have twice the attack rate of dragoons, but only if you let them. (If the dragoon player needs to hold ground, that's where zealots come in.) And he doesn't have to hold on particularly long to finish his DT/Templar tech. Normally, pure hydras destroy pure goon/zealot, you need some type of tech unit, storm or reaver or something. The only reason goons or zealots or a combination of them beat pure hydra is because the zerg player screwed his timing or was hurt badly before that. Sure, you can theorycraft all day about how goons > hydras, but in the thousands of PvZ games, 99% of the time hydras rape basic gateway units. | ||
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AlwaysGG
Taiwan952 Posts
it is not all in its just i wud like call it timing push | ||
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
On June 19 2009 21:47 Art.FeeL wrote: they are maybe like 3-2 for Movie, he is good but in those 2 games he lost, JD destroyed him straight up, Movie couldnt even exit his natural Ye, basic Jaedong losing the first game, Movie is gonna feel his wrath after he destroys Leta. Or atleast this is how i dream it goes ;D | ||
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