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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 01 2008 03:31 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2008 01:34 VIB wrote:
Thanks a lot for the help Naruto.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing? First of all, don't get afraid. Starcraft 2 really feels like Starcraft. I don't think we played it on fastest as it just didn't seem like that. Hit and run works fine. You can easily outmicro zealots with marines. I think its a little bit hard to micro marines against zerglings, especially with speed upgrade, but thats just how it was in Starcraft, right? Hit and run works really well and you can even use blink to buy some time to probably rebuild units while the opponent is chasing your stalkers. Jackals have that flamethrower attack, I think thats why it doesn't work. Its not like a ranged attack but more like a melee attack with AoE. MBS and automine.. well. You can tell from my on stage game that I didn't use MBS at all. I used to hotkey my barracks 3,4,5,6.. and about automining, I did the rally point in front of the minerals, not on them, so I didn't use automining either, haha! Actually MBS works like, if you have 4 gateways / factories whatever on one hotkey, you have to for example press "Z" for zealot 4 times to make all gateways build one, its not that bad and you really get a great overview with a little graphics about it. And I think even if you use automining and MBS it wouldn't change too much. Actually I think automining is more helpfull than MBS to newbies, because MBS just changes: 3t4t5v6v7v8v9v0v to 3ttvvvvvv . You still have to choose what units you are going to build and the unit combinations in Starcraft 2 seem like to feature lots of different units, so MBS wont be a stupid 3zzzzzzzz or something  .
Omg that's what I (and several others) suggested for MBS waaaaaaaaaaay back when it was first announced.. Has it always been that way and nobody bothered mentioning it  ?
I actually don't mind MBS nearly as much if that's how it works.
I'm getting more and more hopeful about sc2
On July 01 2008 03:47 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2008 03:14 MrRammstein wrote:On July 01 2008 03:11 Nyovne wrote:On July 01 2008 00:18 G.s)NarutO wrote:On June 30 2008 23:00 VIB wrote:
For anyone who has been on WWI. Can you use the nullifier force shield ability on top of enemy units to force them to spread out? So could you use it to harass a peon line?
Those nullifiers are something I'm really looking forward, they look fun as hell. I'm not sure if this actually works, but you can use the nullifier to rush up a ramp with your force and actually block of this ramp, so he cannot enter his base while you are wracking havoc. Haha yeah Kal tried to do this while he dropped my main with 1 HT 1 archon and 1 nullifier, sucks for him that I had my nydus warren in my main so that fun ended quickly, especially with my huge queen with 2 corruptor aids taking down that phase prism before he could gay up my main with warpins. Naruto ruleessss btw ^^;; oooo about Corruptors What is needed to do infestation on other units? Is some number of hits needed or after targeted unit is just weak enough 1 attack infestates it??? They need to have the killing blow. Corruptors fuckin suck huge dick. The only redeeming virtue is that they require just a lair to build and aren't that expensive at all. Infestation lasts like 10 sec max as well and have some hive level upgrade to make it last 5 sec (it felt like that) longer (boojah). Rly with they would make corruptors a proper support unit that debuffs a target or a weaker and cheaper 1 psi air skirmisher, atm they felt terrible it play for so many reasons. I missed scourges as hell  . Funniest shit ever is to 1 warp-ray rush a zerg. Do the math why. Oh yeah MBS didnt feel like a problem at all funnily enough, just the automining is sick sick sick as hell while I was thinking it would be the other way around lol. Especially for T and P where later on when you prolly have a gas shortage and little mineral exess you can just queue them up.
Hm, explain the warp ray thing plz. The warp ray still does more and more damage the longer you hit a certain unit right? I don't really get why it's so great vs zerg - lack of anti-air? Trouble taking it down with their early air units?
I really dunno the specs of the warp ray so hard to do the math =P
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 01 2008 03:52 251 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2008 03:31 G.s)NarutO wrote:On July 01 2008 01:34 VIB wrote:
Thanks a lot for the help Naruto.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing? First of all, don't get afraid. Starcraft 2 really feels like Starcraft. I don't think we played it on fastest as it just didn't seem like that. Hit and run works fine. You can easily outmicro zealots with marines. I think its a little bit hard to micro marines against zerglings, especially with speed upgrade, but thats just how it was in Starcraft, right? Hit and run works really well and you can even use blink to buy some time to probably rebuild units while the opponent is chasing your stalkers. Jackals have that flamethrower attack, I think thats why it doesn't work. Its not like a ranged attack but more like a melee attack with AoE. MBS and automine.. well. You can tell from my on stage game that I didn't use MBS at all. I used to hotkey my barracks 3,4,5,6.. and about automining, I did the rally point in front of the minerals, not on them, so I didn't use automining either, haha! Actually MBS works like, if you have 4 gateways / factories whatever on one hotkey, you have to for example press "Z" for zealot 4 times to make all gateways build one, its not that bad and you really get a great overview with a little graphics about it. And I think even if you use automining and MBS it wouldn't change too much. Actually I think automining is more helpfull than MBS to newbies, because MBS just changes: 3t4t5v6v7v8v9v0v to 3ttvvvvvv . You still have to choose what units you are going to build and the unit combinations in Starcraft 2 seem like to feature lots of different units, so MBS wont be a stupid 3zzzzzzzz or something . Thanks for all the great info. That's a significant step better than what I thought MBS was going to be (as in, select gateways hotkey, press Z once). Interesting that Marines will 'easily' outmicro Zealots. That is until Charge is researched x.x After watching those three games, a lot of my faith in SC2 has been restored can you talk a little more about what you think about Marauders? I'm a little in the dark about what this unit exactly is supposed to accomplish. Find any use for it TvZ?
Yes, smart casting hasn't been an issue for me either since you can't select all your units and tab through the different kind of units that are in the control group like you can in WC3/TFT. You'll multi group anyway to have battlefield control/flanking.
Charge is RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE, lets leave it at that ^^. Such a great ability (it's in the same spot as leg enhancements are atm alongside with the stalker blink upgrade).
Marauders are sick units. They are really fookin good allthough a tad expensive. I'm not yet decided about their mineral cost (150mins) which felt like it should be more around 125, maybe even 100. But then again I had them used against me by two really (as far as you can be skilled atm) terrans, including Sea)shield and they both used them to great effect, not as much vs the lings but more vs the banelings to slow them down and then stim split your marines while focussing them down before they can rape your ass. For the rest they absolutely RAPE zeals and are a MUST vs roaches. Without marauders you don't even stand a fighting chance vs 3 hatch Roach as terran. Especially once you burrow (strongest ability in game currently along with warp-in) micro them.
p.s. 100 gas for a cyber core is rediculous and ling funnel enemies into a burrowed baneling ambush is more sex then hold lurker ever was (oh lurkers actually had a hold posis command button in this build).
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 01 2008 04:00 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2008 03:31 G.s)NarutO wrote:On July 01 2008 01:34 VIB wrote:
Thanks a lot for the help Naruto.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing? First of all, don't get afraid. Starcraft 2 really feels like Starcraft. I don't think we played it on fastest as it just didn't seem like that. Hit and run works fine. You can easily outmicro zealots with marines. I think its a little bit hard to micro marines against zerglings, especially with speed upgrade, but thats just how it was in Starcraft, right? Hit and run works really well and you can even use blink to buy some time to probably rebuild units while the opponent is chasing your stalkers. Jackals have that flamethrower attack, I think thats why it doesn't work. Its not like a ranged attack but more like a melee attack with AoE. MBS and automine.. well. You can tell from my on stage game that I didn't use MBS at all. I used to hotkey my barracks 3,4,5,6.. and about automining, I did the rally point in front of the minerals, not on them, so I didn't use automining either, haha! Actually MBS works like, if you have 4 gateways / factories whatever on one hotkey, you have to for example press "Z" for zealot 4 times to make all gateways build one, its not that bad and you really get a great overview with a little graphics about it. And I think even if you use automining and MBS it wouldn't change too much. Actually I think automining is more helpfull than MBS to newbies, because MBS just changes: 3t4t5v6v7v8v9v0v to 3ttvvvvvv . You still have to choose what units you are going to build and the unit combinations in Starcraft 2 seem like to feature lots of different units, so MBS wont be a stupid 3zzzzzzzz or something . Omg that's what I (and several others) suggested for MBS waaaaaaaaaaay back when it was first announced.. Has it always been that way and nobody bothered mentioning it ? I actually don't mind MBS nearly as much if that's how it works. I'm getting more and more hopeful about sc2
MBS didn't annoy me once which surprised the hell out of me, automining did, which also surprised the hell out of me lol.
But yeah the way unit selection / MBS works atm especially with the unit selection limit had a good feel to it.
The game feels SO like a starcraft game, it's incredible.
On a VERY important point, I had no problems seeing what was going on on the battle field with the flashy graphics. Was really np to follow for me, only 4-5 tanks creating a fireline can create some confusion whats going on but thats 99.9% chance that the only thing ur not seeing is the death animation of your unitsbelow them.
Siege tank firelines are sick as hell, they rock so hard :D. The splash kills soooooooooo sick hard haha.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Hehe FA, zerg has some troubles getting anti air except for a Queen to scare a scouting enemy overlord off and spores (even though relocatable) are a huge investment to prevent like 1-2 strats.
The way it works revolves around a) the fact that zerg most likely has no anti air, and b) a single warpray kills a hatchery in about 20 seconds? So you fly it in, kill his main hatch, float to his expo, kill that one. GG
It's the funniest shit ever if they don't see it comming (which none of the randoms who were playing did). If you thought you'd make someone rage by DT rushing them you ain't seen shit yet haha. They all go apeshit at you in chat when you do it^^. They lose all their main buildings under 60 sec to 1 unit.
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Sweden33719 Posts
LOL 20 SECONDS?!? :D
Also holy shit marauder has 150 hp? It looks like a beast but apparently it's not just looks.
How did the Thor and its revival work? In the demo they seemed to auto-repair themselves once dead, I'd have thought you needed to send an scv in or something.
Btw thanks so much for these posts!
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 01 2008 04:10 FrozenArbiter wrote:
LOL 20 SECONDS?!? :D
Also holy shit marauder has 150 hp? It looks like a beast but apparently it's not just looks.
How did the Thor and its revival work? In the demo they seemed to auto-repair themselves once dead, I'd have thought you needed to send an scv in or something.
Btw thanks so much for these posts!
Yeah marauders are 150 hp, 1 armor, 16 dmg + 6 vs armored, aoe slowing beasts. Them + 50hp stimmed rines are hardcore. Let alone when endgame medivacs start healing 150 hp, 4 armor infantry tt.
Dunno about the thor, I never played terran past midgame.
Ghosts are soooooooooo strong though, damnnnn snipe is the shit and midgame cloak vs not that much (mobile) detection in the game as SCBW makes them great great harass units. 2 ghosts pretty much take out any tier 1 units and workers with a single shot from both at long range. The energy using units radar is funny but nothing awsome except to defend your base vs burrowing infestors.
Snipe at +150 dmg vs biological takes care of any templar, one shots mutas, ultras get spanked by it, the works. But they are expensive, 100 mins, 200 gas, but they are 100hp 1 armor, hardcore mofo's. Real roaming assasins now, great great for harassing and available midgame.
Combine that with EMP grenades on them and they won my heart straight away. Not sure about their gas costs though, it's a bit steep but didn't play it enough to find out their real bang for their buck.
I should really write up one huge post about my SC2 zerg experiences and blog about T and P tbh. Loads of beef where I got strong feelings (good mostly) about.
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How do Zerg deal with Olord's being harassed now from Phoenix/Vikings? Without much AA do they still get by well? Do only Overseer's have the speed upgrade, or can you still research Olord speed from Lair?
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 01 2008 04:18 Ideas wrote:
How do Zerg deal with Olord's being harassed now from Phoenix/Vikings? Without much AA do they still get by well? Do only Overseer's have the speed upgrade, or can you still research Olord speed from Lair?
I didnt see a single phoenix, I did get marine, marauder, attacked by some random terran who seemed to be a skilled SCBW player who was pushing my expo while adding 2-3 vikings to hunt lords and prevent a offensive nydus in his base while adding ghosts/nukes. 2 spores and my large queen took care of that pretty easily though, dunno if you'd rush vikings, youd kill alot of lords I guess but your eco ( no exp) and unit count would suck I think. They are pretty weak vs roaches with banelings (which was my preferred unit combo with some speed lings in the mix vs T).
Overseers once morphed have instantly a higher speed so no need to research it. Overlords (normal ones) still have a seperate speed grade at lair level.
On an important note, the new Hydras are so good vs armor and anti air. They absolutely rape anything that flies but are expensive especially on gas, I think they should be 100/50 not 100/100.
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Did you get to use Ultralisks at all? What are their cost/specs?
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On July 01 2008 03:56 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2008 03:44 Krzycho wrote:
Naruto did you find any imbalanced in the current game?
Some things felt overpowered till I let go of my "broodwar" mindset which I lost after about the first 3-5 games. When I went in with a clean slate to make things work nothing felt overpowered to me myself somethings are just rly rly strong. Some units are statistically overpowered, especially collossi. But they are hard to get as long as you pressure the P during the game, and if he 1 base techs to them you can just take 3-4 bases yourself easily and swarm his ass with superior numbers. If you can fast play 2 base as P and get 3-4 collossi you're pretty much unstoppable at this moment though if the other guy doesn't have like at LEAST 2 more bases and the proper selection and amount of units to deal with them. Collossi really felt like they were too fast. Some people from Blizz TV were interviewing me about them and how I felt about them, I kinda answered that they were fine to deal with since they arent easy to available through tech and are rly expensive so they are hard to mass but they felt like Reavers on crack with jetpacks that can shoot over terrain elevations.All in all the game felt really fine, the 2 things that felt dangerously strong to me were collossi and the time it takes to gurge creep from an OL, spawn a nydus worm and pop a unit out. I timed it to a grand total of 6-7 seconds from floating in my lord in his main and my first banelings popping out into his mineral line. The OL creep generation is fine but the nydus worm spawn should really take 5 seconds (maybe 1 more) instead of the 3 it currently seems to be. But then again the game is so much more mobile and units can appear so much easier anywhere on the map that you're asking for trouble if you don't leave a squad of units around your main bases and a defensive structure or two. Let alone allowing that first slow scouting lord to just hover closely around your main or expansion till he's ready to fly it in and nydus worm your ass.
HAHAH THANK YOU SOOO MUCH MAN :D
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To clarify Overlords are Overseer the only fast detectors or do normal Overlords have some speed upgrade?
edit: How Warp In works were those insanely fast units warping in stored?
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 01 2008 04:25 Ideas wrote:
Did you get to use Ultralisks at all? What are their cost/specs?
I did but just in a game where I was finishing someone off so they didn't really see "battlefield experience" so to speak.
They are 300/400 (yes 400 gas tt) cost, 6 psi (like the thor and collossus as their counterparts I guess). They have 600 hp, 1 armor, 25 dmg with a full dmg cleave which is rly nice. This all sounds great but gas in SC2 is a bit slower endgame for my feel then it was in SCBW, this is probably largely due to the fact that blizzard just created 1000gas geysers so people would explore the new gas mechanic once they deplete. If you could actually get 6 geysers (like 3-4ish in SCBW) at the same time that weren't depleted they could actually be alot more affordable. At the maps that were in the game at the time, if you actually were playing a good game Hive tech was not readily massable due to the lack of gas so that twisted off my endgame feel and leaves it totally unreliable a judgement about it on my part.
Would have liked to play a normal 5000 geyser map or something in that direction so that you actually increase your gas gain alot instead of just relocating it to a new fresh expo (plus the depleted gas mining offcourse) so see how it would open up endgame.
My biggest beef with Ultras which look WICKED COOL imho is that they are slow as snails and there wasn't a speed grade in sight. They are as slow as they look, not neccisarily a bad thing offcourse but it just screwed with my BW feel about their speed with speed grade. Now they are big lumbering tanks/meatshields and they look it and got the HP buff (+50% compared to SCBW) to work that role to the fullest.
In the end Ultras felt good, aoe cleaving tank units and they *seem* to be doing just that. Just the 300/400 costs and especially the gas cost seemed incredibly steep but like I said that probably has to do with the lowgas gain at endgame unless you could take alot of new geysers at the same time which doesn't seem possible in a real game vs an opponent who takes the fight to you.
p.s. there still is a 2 armor grade for ultras at the cavern.
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What do you think about roaches?
On the SC2 first streamed game they did seem to be really really slow.
What speed did you play on? Was it normal or fastest?
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 01 2008 04:37 MrRammstein wrote:
To clarify Overlords are Overseer the only fast detectors or do normal Overlords have some speed upgrade?
edit: How Warp In works were those insanely fast units warping in stored?
Overlords are slow ass guys like in SCBW but dont drop units, don't detect. They have 2 abilities in the latest build that we played 1) being morph to Overseer, 50 mins 50 gas, takes 10 sec orso its fast and only requires a lair. 2) being creep something, as it drops creep onto the ground where it spreads allowing for defensive zerg structures to be built before the hatch finishes or to WALK THEM OVER to the new expo (they are pretty fast while uprooted but really weak!) and defend it while it finishes.
The creep spreads at a FAST rate, the three main uses I found for it were offcourse a) to deploy offensive nydus worms, b) to place spinal crawlers (sunken colonies) at a building hatch or best of all c) one one map a golden mineral expo was blocked by destroyable rocks, I dropped creep, moved 4 spinals there, and had them destroy the rocks while already forming a nice static defense for the soon to be built hatchery there while not requiring any of my army to stop pressuring my opponent and while turning my at that time useless static defense into a means to acquire a brand new double yield expo.
Overlords still have a seperate, overlord only speed upgrade just like in SCBW at a lair.
Overlords are NO DETECTORS!! Just overseers, but they are quite up to the job. First thing I do when I get a lair is morph 4 overseers, put 1 at my main, 1 at my natural, 1 at my army and 1 at his natural. They have a huge sight radius if they stay put for a while.
Overseers also have ENERGY, ghosts can detect them by their personal energy detection radar as such. The real question is, what would they use that energy for. Well to create Changelings.
Its an ability everyone I spoke to totally missed. Changelings are 35 energycost larvae that you can run around the map and the first enemy unit it encounters turns it into a zergling zealot or marine which you can just quietly walk into his base without getting autoattack by units while you have a nice little look around his base. They are *great* for scouting, at least vs noobs as pro players should easily spot a random unit running around. But still, the fact that they dont get auto attacked means that even if you would see it and kill it soon, it means it will just scout your army or even your tech before you can react to it and thats just if theres 1 running around, let alone 10.
I'm not sure if Changelings had a duration before they autodied (like broodlings in SCBW), I forgot tt, they might have.
I also wasn't able to find out if DETECTOR units see a changeling for what it truely is.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 01 2008 04:37 MrRammstein wrote:
To clarify Overlords are Overseer the only fast detectors or do normal Overlords have some speed upgrade?
edit: How Warp In works were those insanely fast units warping in stored?
You change a Gateway into a Warpgate with an upgrade at the cybernetics core. A warpgate doesn't "build" units but you can pretty much instanly spawn them wherever you have "power" as created by a pylon or phaseprism (deployed shuttle). After spawning them they go on cooldown and you cant create anymore units there then until the cooldown finishes and you can warp in more units again in a powered zone.
So you can select 10 gateways, they get changed, you pop 6 zeals and 4 stalkers onto the battlefield where you have a sneaky pylon hidden behind tall grass terrain which blocks vision (but not movement). Then after the cooldown finished you spawn 10 DTs into your opponents main where you sneakily flew your phase prism after scouting all clear with your observer and deployed it in an empty corner.
hope that explains it for you.
p.s. Tall grass and destroyable terrain (as neutral buildings are right now), but especially the tall grass are really really cool. The gras just makes for PERFECT ambush places :D.
Oh a small detail, engineering bays cost a little gas to make now, like 25 I think and ARE NOT LIFTABLE anymore. So no more "useless" building to lift and scout around hehe. Same with the Deep Space Relay, it's not liftable. Only production buildings are liftable atm, but liftable terran buildings fly *alot* faster then in SCBW.
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Changelings sound evil, well depending how well the enemy knows his own forces. I´m curious how the Nomad works right now, I heard that Nanorepair is back and AoE in Air now, is that true or is it BS?
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I see how i will "m" + click on enemy units my changelings :D Can u see what they really are with a detector? It will be usefull in the late game when your opponent has got like 100 units
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On July 01 2008 05:01 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2008 04:37 MrRammstein wrote:
To clarify Overlords are Overseer the only fast detectors or do normal Overlords have some speed upgrade?
edit: How Warp In works were those insanely fast units warping in stored? You change a Gateway into a Warpgate with an upgrade at the cybernetics core. A warpgate doesn't "build" units but you can pretty much instanly spawn them wherever you have "power" as created by a pylon or phaseprism (deployed shuttle). After spawning them they go on cooldown and you cant create anymore units there then until the cooldown finishes and you can warp in more units again in a powered zone. So you can select 10 gateways, they get changed, you pop 6 zeals and 4 stalkers onto the battlefield where you have a sneaky pylon hidden behind tall grass terrain which blocks vision (but not movement). Then after the cooldown finished you spawn 10 DTs into your opponents main where you sneakily flew your phase prism after scouting all clear with your observer and deployed it in an empty corner. hope that explains it for you. p.s. Tall grass and destroyable terrain (as neutral buildings are right now), but especially the tall grass are really really cool. The gras just makes for PERFECT ambush places :D. Oh a small detail, engineering bays cost a little gas to make now, like 25 I think and ARE NOT LIFTABLE anymore. So no more "useless" building to lift and scout around hehe. Same with the Deep Space Relay, it's not liftable. Only production buildings are liftable atm, but liftable terran buildings fly *alot* faster then in SCBW.
It does explain THANK YOU AGAIN
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 01 2008 04:48 Krzycho wrote:
What do you think about roaches?
On the SC2 first streamed game they did seem to be really really slow.
What speed did you play on? Was it normal or fastest?
You couldn't see the speed but it felt pretty much like SCBW if not faster due to the new and GREATLY improved unit pathing. Everything moves incredibly smoothe and units are *exactly* as big as they look atm, aka you need like 4-5 zeals atm to block a small choke to prevent lings from getting in and even they some might get through.
Roaches are really really strong vs terran in my experience and that from several others I spoke to. Not *that* strong that you can just mass them and kill someone. Well you can but just vs noobs who go like pure rines or pure tanks. Add 2-4 marauders in the mix and the tables even out quite nicely.
Roaches are tier 1 units, they cost 75 mins, 25 gas, the same as SCBW hydras cost. They fire just at ground at like euhm.. shorter range then upgraded marines (and standard marine range in SC2), and at a decent rate, they have 75 HP and they have a Hive Tech level upgrade that increases their (already formidable) regeneration rate which is about as much as (give or take) a medic healing it in SCBW.... I know tt. The Roachden takes a relatively long time to build compared to a spawning pool, maybe even as long as a hatchery I didn't check the exact buildtimes but it felt like a relatively long time for me, especially for a tier 1 building.
But to actually answer your question, yes they move slow as hell hehe.
Roaches are at their strongest when micro'd in combination with BURROW, which now takes a meagre 30 seconds to upgrade and the pitiful cost of 50 mins and 50 gas.
I just had to use it to my maximum skill ability in two games, one vs a random terran I played like 3x who seemed quite skilled and probably is a good SCBW player and the other game vs Sea)Shield. The way I go at it is to focus two marines down with two small groups of roaches and then burrow them for 2-3 sec as they all regenerate to full, then unburrow again and shoot two more of the little buggers and then reburrow hence repeat till everything is dead.
This is offcourse especially strong if you can get your gang into his natural so he's kinda forced to fight your roaches in this style or lift-off his CC and give up his natural for the time being till he reclaims it. A well placed radar tower helps/prevents against this but they are pretty easily sniped by some speed lings running past the carnage in a fight.
The arrival of a nomad (which requires just a startport + techlab addon) offcourse totally destroys this tactic and scan will as well but theres a window where you can prevent him from taking his natural with this tactic while taking another expo or teching/massing up yourself to actually crush his natural once he gets rid of your roaches with detection.
Roaches vs protoss felt rather weak but nice in support if you require it early game but I felt more comfortable with taking just 1 of my two gasses and going speed ling with baneling support instead of the two gasses you need to keep up with three hatch roaches.
I'll stress again how incredibly powerfull burrow is at this point in time. Burrow combined with roaches makes for a formidable early game tactic versus terrans and burrow combined with banelings is just scarily insane. If you can funnal an enemy without mobile detection (so mostly early game/earlymidgame) with flanking lings and ling luring over 10-20 banelings you will instantly turn any army of ANY unit combination into a huge pile of green goo. Most people I played repeatedly were afraid to try and counter a fast 2nd expo from me until they had mobile detection because of fear of a burrowed baneling ambush.
One protoss player though tried some nice strat against it, he lost his first army (like 2 archons, 10 zeals, 6 stalkers, 2 nullifiers and a HT) all in the blink of an eye against 18 burrowed banelings. Only 1 archon walked away from that till it got swarmed by about 40 lings. After that he moved out again with a sizable army and I was flying around with 5 corruptors and an overseer to snipe some observers if I got the chance but after sniping his observer he just kept comming and I was drooling again of another bloodbath like before. This guy was actually pretty damn good and was using drops like 1 archon 1 HT 1 nullifier to forcefield block my nat/main ramp and then hunt my mains probes with archon stormdrop so I got stupid and overconfident.
The lucky break I had there like 3 sec before I popped my baneling ambush was that 1 zealot apparantly snuck through my ambushes and ran into my 4rth base and then was killed by spinal crawlers but as it did.. I heard a nice *poof* sound.
Which scared the shit out of me because as to confirm my suspicions I ran my lings into the approaching army and found out they were all hallucinated.... *zing* If I didnt get lucky he would have totally outplayed me there, because without those banelings he could have rolled out and totally crushed by newest expo to bring the basecount back to 3 vs 2 and get him totally back in the game. There was just no way I could have stopped that attack otherwise since I was playing greedy at that point and trustnig to my banelings scattered in groups everywhere to keep him in check till I had 8 geysers to mass hydra from 7 hatches.
On that part, HT's now come with hallucination already available to them and it lasts an astounding *3minutes!!!!* now per hallucination. After that game I tried some of myself for it and found it to be crazy good in certain situations.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Gah I almost feel silly for worrying about ANYTHING. SC2 seems absolutely brilliant.
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EPT
