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On June 01 2026 07:09 MountainGoat wrote:
If going from 12 to 8 ruins Zerg cheese then why was it viable at 6 workers?
If you read his post, it would tell you. Adepts did not exist when we had 6 workers at wings of liberty. Countless other things have changed between WoL and LotV that are not being accounted for which is a recipe for disaster. We are not going back to WoL in any way shape or form. It's just LoTV but worse.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 01 2026 07:09 MountainGoat wrote:
If going from 12 to 8 ruins Zerg cheese then why was it viable at 6 workers?
It really depends on what x other faction has at x timing versus what Zerg timings are
A WoL pool cheese could be fiendish because the Toss wouldn’t necessarily have closed their sim city yet, or perhaps neglected a scout (and kinda deserve the loss) Whereas you could hit off a different worker start and have more lings as a Zerg, but if the Toss has plugged their wall, that outright outweighs extra lings.
To massively oversimplify ofc. And this change, if it even goes through is new, people may work things out.
Other stuff can change because of these interactions for the positive. Protoss versus Random is way less annoying in Legacy than WoL because catch-all openings are more viable due to that increased eco and pacing
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And also everyone seems to forget that Larva injection was nerf to 3 from 4 in LotV which further slows down how fast Zerg can grow in the early game compared to before
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The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse.
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On June 01 2026 13:09 TelecoM wrote:
The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse.
Lorimbo just articulated a full essay proving that the exact opposite is true. Not sure you are rage baiting or what.
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On June 01 2026 16:05 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 13:09 TelecoM wrote:
The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse. Lorimbo just articulated a full essay proving that the exact opposite is true. Not sure you are rage baiting or what.
He gave his elaborated opinion on the race he's been playing for 3 years within the only economic system he's ever known, so while he might be right, he also might not. This is just his perspective, it's not proving anything.
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How about we remove ravagers and adepts 
On a more serious Note, very nice writeup, personally i didnt mind the slightly slower start but with these issues blizz should Take a Look If they wanna Go through with 8 workers and Change Things around it or If that should be too much.
We cannot forget that lotv Balance and other Changes were all done for a 12 worker start so alot of Them Probably would need to Change again.
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United Kingdom20342 Posts
I think you are missing one of the more important changes: bases mine out much slower on PTR. That makes more difference than the starting worker count as to when you must take bases 3, 4, 5, because you can keep many more workers active for much longer without having those bases active.
I do think that change impacts protoss and terran a lot more, though.
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Very brave to post what is basically a diehard cheeser's confession. I think it's a bit generous to assume that people like watching cheese but don't like it when it happens to them... I think that in general, cheesers are looked down upon and derided, and cheese isn't held in high regard. Maybe Blizzard's changes were aimed to, in part, minimize the impact of these frustrating strategies.
Perhaps you could branch out and learn the game past the 5 minute mark? Who knows, maybe you'll enjoy it the same way most people who play the game do.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 02 2026 00:41 Jealous wrote:
Very brave to post what is basically a diehard cheeser's confession. I think it's a bit generous to assume that people like watching cheese but don't like it when it happens to them... I think that in general, cheesers are looked down upon and derided, and cheese isn't held in high regard. Maybe Blizzard's changes were aimed to, in part, minimize the impact of these frustrating strategies.
Perhaps you could branch out and learn the game past the 5 minute mark? Who knows, maybe you'll enjoy it the same way most people who play the game do.
I think it’s multifaceted, I both like and dislike cheese.
I think it’s fun in a series, where you have mindgames, may be exploiting your opponent’s tendencies, and those attempts to second guess your opponent and win the build war. I also can see the fun in devising fiendish cheeses and allins, build innovation is cool. Not something I’m adept in mind!
I get frustrated on ladder when it’s like, my opponent just has their cheese, and they just do their cheese every game, and they’ll almost win or lose based on their opponent’s chosen opener, which they can’t know in advance. I don’t get frustrated from losing, I just don’t really see the point.
My personal definition of cheese is that it’s blindly executed, other opinions may vary!
An all-in is a calculated play, it based off something. But it’s not a cheese, that’s summat else.
I think they’re sometimes a bit conflated, but are a bit different. I think many who are interested in more aggressive options it kinda comes more in the form of ‘if I see something my opponent’s skimping, I should be able to adjust and try kill them’, and less wanting blind cheese to be especially good
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On June 02 2026 00:41 Jealous wrote:
Very brave to post what is basically a diehard cheeser's confession. I think it's a bit generous to assume that people like watching cheese but don't like it when it happens to them... I think that in general, cheesers are looked down upon and derided, and cheese isn't held in high regard. Maybe Blizzard's changes were aimed to, in part, minimize the impact of these frustrating strategies.
Perhaps you could branch out and learn the game past the 5 minute mark? Who knows, maybe you'll enjoy it the same way most people who play the game do.
-shrug- I don't think the community at large has a healthy understanding of 'cheese' as a concept. It seems like it's mostly used as derogatory and emotional rather than an actual technical definition, and that emotional definition feels broadly like 'Strategy that would have lost immediately if I knew it was coming'. In reality all of that fringe space of strategy should be considered valid, but is instead considered by many to be a thing preventing them from 'playing the real game'.
I'm not advocating for more (forgive my dated references) BitByBit or CombatEx, but just pointing to JulyZerg as a 'cheesy as fuck' player who still had respect. "Macro game" being the unspoken gentleman's agreement on how to play sc2 is bullshit.
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On June 01 2026 16:17 darklycid wrote:How about we remove ravagers and adepts
There are more units that should be taken out of the game. Lurkers, liberators, disruptors, and-
Hey, wait a minute!
What if we just got rid of LotV altogether? Post SH-nerf Heart of the Swarm was the best state this game has ever been in. The people aren't ready for this truth though.
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On June 01 2026 16:16 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 16:05 sidasf wrote:On June 01 2026 13:09 TelecoM wrote:
The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse. Lorimbo just articulated a full essay proving that the exact opposite is true. Not sure you are rage baiting or what. He gave his elaborated opinion on the race he's been playing for 3 years within the only economic system he's ever known, so while he might be right, he also might not. This is just his perspective, it's not proving anything.
He didn't give an opinion though. He play-tested it (I will just take his statement as face-value until for example Harstem says "no idea who that guy is"). It's also not just a perspective, it is the perspective of a high-level cheeser who clearly puts lots of effort and planning into his builds instead of just going "Zergling goes brrrr".
As far as I can tell, the working theory "the changes will benefit the early game and make it more divers" is disproven with this. Ball is now in the other sides court to prove that it actually helps the early game and Lorimbo is just not looking at it right. But saying "it's not proving anything" while the counter-argument is essentially "it should technically theoretically somehow improve because that's how I remember it from earlier versions of the game"...that's very vague.
What if we just got rid of LotV altogether? Post SH-nerf Heart of the Swarm was the best state this game has ever been in. The people aren't ready for this truth though.
Can't do that, Lilbow would have prepared for nothing.
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we had cheese with 6 workers, we had cheese with 12 workers. just this RSL i saw cheese from zerg. i dont think its dead, maybe its narrowed? but either way I think it will always be there, just in different forms, as players will exploit greed until they are punished. Especially in tournament play where they may mix it in to get an edge.
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Oracle.
Just one unit. A single unit that warps the entire PvZ matchup.
It’s simply too versatile. It scouts, it’s practically mandatory for defending a fast third Nexus, it harasses, and it shuts down a variety of cheese strategies. Then the mid game arrives and it’s still incredibly useful: it provides detection, helps with map control, and contributes to defense through Stasis Wards. Even in the late game it remains important for Tempest-based compositions.
No single unit should be this universally useful. It has a direct and significant negative impact on gameplay and build diversity because it covers too many roles at once.
I’m not sure exactly how it should be reworked, but considering that Zerg has no T1 anti-air unit, perhaps the Oracle’s damage should be replaced with some other form of utility.
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Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
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On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
Holy fuck, what a post.
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On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
Literally who are you
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On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
I suppose this long ranting personal attack has nothing to do with you losing to me on ladder over and over again and having a crying fit about zerg in my dms, right?
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EPT
