The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser - Page 3

On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?

I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.

Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.

Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.

In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.

That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.

Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.

Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.

On June 03 2026 01:11 Psz wrote:


My name is Psz and i’m a rather infamous terran player on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play.

Over the course of my short career, in the last 16 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to PtitDrogo, Spirit, and most recently a tie vs Classic.

And you are praising this guy.

On June 03 2026 01:49 AicyDC wrote:
But to talk about the actual thread - lorimbo makes solid points.

I was initially excited by this change and yeah was trying to come up with some cheeses but similarly found myself really hit by the low larva problem.

People should also acknowledge just how much diversity there is for zerg openings in the current patch - at least in ZvP and ZvZ. There is not just loads of cheeses, but the popularisation of 15 hatch 15 pool (before overlord, supply tricked) and all its variations have opened a massive can of tasty worms of possibilities which have been really fun to explore and see.

It is true that any early aggressive potential against Terran has been nerfed out the game, and this patch won't make it any better. Not just cheese, but two base all-ins like nydus got nerfed hard. The 8 worker change won't fix this, but might just remove the options vs toss as well.

I still like the low worker start though for mixing things up - but I wonder if we mix up in a better way. The warpgate changes are really cool - giving you a decision between whether to use gateways and warpgates. Some other change similar to that for zerg or terran might give us the mix up and changes people desire.

Something Lorimbo did not mention but I also think hurts Zerg cheese particularly hard is this change:
- Hatchery supply provided reduced from 6 to 4

On one base this is four less lings you can have in your attack before an overlord, and eight less lings if you are doing a 1 and a half base all-in.

On June 03 2026 02:10 WombaT wrote:

It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco

Tech timings and pain points aren’t crazily different, relatively speaking

Based on PTR stuff I’ve watched, you’re basically getting the same game it’s just a bit slower, but that may change.

The diversity doesn’t seem much bigger, least as yet.

On June 03 2026 02:15 AicyDC wrote:


"It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco "

I don't see how this is true.

LotV is was just HotS with some new units added, and the 12 worker start. Its not like they did things like change pylon build times and a bunch of fine tunning so it was "actively built" for a 12 worker start.

On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?

I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.

Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.

Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.

In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.

That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.

Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.

Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.

I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game

On June 02 2026 13:04 Balnazza wrote:


He didn't give an opinion though. He play-tested it (I will just take his statement as face-value until for example Harstem says "no idea who that guy is"). It's also not just a perspective, it is the perspective of a high-level cheeser who clearly puts lots of effort and planning into his builds instead of just going "Zergling goes brrrr".

As far as I can tell, the working theory "the changes will benefit the early game and make it more divers" is disproven with this. Ball is now in the other sides court to prove that it actually helps the early game and Lorimbo is just not looking at it right. But saying "it's not proving anything" while the counter-argument is essentially "it should technically theoretically somehow improve because that's how I remember it from earlier versions of the game"...that's very vague.



Can't do that, Lilbow would have prepared for nothing.

On June 03 2026 02:15 AicyDC wrote:


"It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco "

I don't see how this is true.

LotV is was just HotS with some new units added, and the 12 worker start. Its not like they did things like change pylon build times and a bunch of fine tunning so it was "actively built" for a 12 worker start.

On June 03 2026 03:36 WombaT wrote:

They actively changed stuff for that change, why do (did) slow warpins exist? Because fast warpins with that eco stat are broken.

Why does Zerg larva and injection work differently? Same reason

I don’t like 12 worker eco, but they changed things to make that work. The game was heavily designed around that.

Current patch you’re taking the changes made to make 12 eco work, but cramming it into an 8 worker start, and not all the timings match up for this reason. But you also didn’t revert to 6 workers which at least was tried and tested through 2 full expansions

I don’t see how this is a complicated concept. WoL and HoTS were balanced entirely around 6 worker eco, Legacy 12.

Just going ‘let’s have 8’ without adjusting other things is liable to cause problems, because no iteration of ladder SC2 has ever had that, and you haven’t adjusted timings to reflect that

The classic ‘ETA’ triangle need to be balanced (economy vs army vs tech)

If you just arbtrarily change eco without adjusting tech, it causes problems, because tech timings are literally build around previous eco timings

It gets messy potentially. Even with the slower eco, Protoss and Terran tech isn’t that much slower, but the Zerg eco rampup is, and that distorts things