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Hello everyone, my name is Lorimbo and i’m a rather infamous zerg cheeser on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play. I’m writing this post as a last desperate attempt to save what i most dearly love about sc2: actual aggression in the early game. This will be most likely a very long and detailed post, so i’ll put a TLDR at the end.
Let’s start with the most important details first: in the past 5 days, i’ve played about 100 games and 30 hours of ptr, mostly focusing on zvp, and in a minor part, on zvt. All of the testing was done against mid GM+ opponents or pro players. My biggest passion in sc2 has been making new build orders and figuring out new metas , i am THE target audience for these changes that are meant to promote strategic diversity, and yet the PTR patch is making me strongly consider straight up quitting sc2 for good.
My hypothesis, which i strongly believe in after extensive testing, is that at least as far as zerg is concerned, early game cheese is essentially dead, and build order variety is gutted even more than in the live patch. So, why do i think that?
Part 1 : The larvae problem.
Let’s start from a very basic explanation of high level zerg cheese. Essentially cheesing is a three step process: first we set up a basic level of economy, which allows us to constantly produce units, we are then teching up to our desired tech level, such as getting a pool+ speed, a roach warren, a bane nest, or whatever the specific cheese requires.
Lastly there is the execution step, in which we use the units/static defense to actually try and either win the game on the spot or get an economic advantage big enough to later convert into a win.
The 8 workers start fundamentally messes with this process in several ways, rendering it non functional. I’ll explain it as simply as i can: for any serious cheese, our economic output HAS to be 12 workers at the very minimum (and realistically 14+). Easy enough, just make drones at the start, right? Wrong!
On the current live patch, i start with 12 workers and 3 larvae; I can choose to go up to 14 (for example when proxy hatching), bank the remaining larvae, and accumulate 2 more while teching up, thus having exactly 3 larvae for when my pool is done. On ptr, going up to 12 workers leaves me with 0 larvae. In other words, compared to the ptr, i start any cheese down 3 larvae.
Part 2 : The tech problem
BUT LORIMBO, i hear you say, just as your cheese is delayed, so will be the defenses of the opposing player, since they’re also starting with less workers, thus resulting into more cheese options, greater variety and so on and so forth! Unfortunately this is not only wrong, but the opposite is true.
Let’s go back to our 12 workers cheese example: by the time i get to 12 workers, i have no larvae, and my protoss opponent has 11 workers, 1 extra chrono and a completed pylon. I want you guys to focus on the pylon: it not only functions as a supply expansion, but also, and this is the CRITICAL key to understand the problem, as a tech speedup.
The reason for this is that in starcraft, pylons(and supply depots) are required to build gates/ raxes. This essentially means that on ptr, not only am i slowed down by the lack of larvae, but my opponent starts 18 seconds ahead in their tech trees. This problem doesn’t only affect cheeses: when playing what we tested to be one of the more efficient hatch first openings (14h 16p 17g), we realized that the first adepts hits so much “faster”(relatively to our tech/unit) compared to live.
It has a much greater window of time to punish our lack of speed, and generally prevent the zerg from taking map control. In fact this window is so big, that instead of the usual 2 adepts harrass, you can easily get away with harrassing with 3 adepts for quite a while, since the speed won’t come online until much much later.
Part 3 : What does it actually look like?
Let’s circle back to the main issue at hand: what the 8 workers start means for aggressive play as zerg. Essentially, there are two ways to look at this: either I try to match the timing of live, or i try to match the unit count. Taking a basic 17g 16p 18h ravager ling flood as an example, we’re supposed to be hitting at 3.40 with 3 ravagers and about 20 speedlings, while having 17 workers ,2 bases and a queen at home.
I tested these builds several times, trying to first match the timing (3.40), then the unit count(the 3 ravs, 20 lings). In the first case, i had to cut out the queen, 2 workers, and about 10 lings, and when i showed up (this game was played against harstem and recorded), he had 4 units and 3 batteries+ a nexus, about twice as much as you can afford on live. So not only did i have to completely gut any potential follow up and make the attack much weaker (no queen means no inject means even less lings in the long run), but my opponents early tech was so much faster that he had more units than me! The second approach was even worse: by matching the unit count, i arrive so unbelievably late that my opponent once again has an extremely comfortable defense, even if taken off guard.
Part 4 : Scouting and opponents’ skill
This is the inevitable paragraph where i dispel some commonly held misconceptions which might otherwise bias the readers. Let’s start off by clarifying that all calculations made in this thread are purely compared to the same situation in the live game, and that the skill of my opponents has nothing to do with the calculations. In other words, the fact that i was playing against equally good or even better players has no bearing on the efficacy of the cheese.
Over the course of my short career, in the last 3 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to, Hero, Maxpax, Elazer, Byun, Ryung, Percival, Creator and Classic+ most likely your favourite pro player too. That is to say, top pro players CAN and WILL be cheesed on live, they are not immune to cheese whatsoever, and are in fact quite susceptible to it.
The bar to defend any cheese on ptr is MUCH lower than live, and thus the number of possible aggressive early game ideas inevitably approaches 0. Secondly, scouting did not actually get any harder, at least not against zerg.
Once again, while on paper the cost of a worker scouting early with a lower worker count is much greater than on live, in reality this is more than compensated by the tech advantage previously discussed+ the lack of larvae. The thing that actually got slowed down, from our testing, is either the first expansion or the first T2 tech (heavy factory units for terran, stargate for protoss), depending on how the player decides to play (early expansions with late tech seem to be the more optimal way atm).
And before you ask me, no, i tested it, the late stargate is still more than in time to defend a speedling attack on the third, and you don’t need sg units to defend your natural, not on live, and even less on ptr, where you have significantly more time to make units. On a similar note, the warpgate changes mostly do not impact early cheeses: in a standard live game, warpgate finishes by 4.10ish, way later than basically every cheese i play.
Part 5 : Rock paper scissor gameplay.
Alright, i’ll admit it, i’ve purposefully omitted an exception to the economy setup rule: 8 pools and 10 pools. There’s a reason for that.
I’m sure most of you will remember the good old days, how much more “strategic variety” there was and how zerg actually had several aggressive openings with lower workers counts. Lemme slash all of your dreams right here, 8/10 pools are a complete meme opening on ptr, essentially no-scout killers. There are two main reason for this: firstly, and i can’t believe i have to say this, ADEPTS DIDN’T EXIST BEFORE LOTV.
This matters immensely, as it means that even in the dream scenario in which my 10 pool does any damage (and believe me this is already a stretch), the lack of money to afford queens and/or speed will immediately get punished by the adept zealot counterpush (similarly to the current zvp 12p on live, which is also considered unplayable at a high level), often resulting in a game end. 8 Pool is even worse on that regard. Moreover the skill of top players has been raised so much it’s hard to properly express the difference, thus those defenses are much easier and much more standardized than they used to be.
Secondly, we have to address the elephant in the room: I have come to realize, over the course of the years, that sc2 is a game that is significantly more enjoyable if you don’t understand it that well. I know that this opinion might seem controversial or elitist, but allow me to explain: The lack of high level knowledge makes a game more exciting, more mysterious.
You don’t know who’s gonna win, or who’s ahead, and that immensely improves the experience; every moment could be the comeback of a lifetime, every play could be the end of the game. There’s a reason why successfull casters often tend to hype up possible future play as opposed to giving a precise rundown on who’s winning and by how much.
You don’t hear “Reynor is dead and is gonna try and cope for the next 5 mins while clem pushes and denies bases”, you hear “Reynor’s finding himself on the backfoot, but maybe this ling runby could take Clem by surprise, and wow what an amazing split on the push by Clem, managing to deny this CRITICAL 5th expansion”. I’m bringing this up to reveal a tragic truth about the nature of PTR: when moving outside the boring macro game experience, the amount of build order wins is staggering.
To an unexperienced outsider, these games might look exciting, but the game is essentially over the moment both players make their decision, before any interaction has happened. I bring it up here because 10 pool often falls into this category: i’ve had a game against harstem trying to proxy gate (autowin for me) and one against a fast scout into fast core (autoloss for me). Neither of those games had much interaction, but i’m sure without this knowledge they looked exciting.
To be clear, this problem is present in some form even on live, especially in mirror matchups (12p v 16p in zvz or proxies in pvp come to mind), but on PTR it’s out of control.
Part 6 : Nostalgia Goggles
Believe me, i would love nothing more than to go back to a time where so many more strategies were viable, where early game aggression was king, the game wasn’t figured out yet, and the games didn’t devolve into a lategame slog immediately. I’m told by afficionados that Wol and Hots were like that. I can’t confirm or deny that, as i’ve never played those expansions. What i can say is that the game changed way too much for those times to come back with simply a worker change.
The units are different, the balance is different, the players are better, the naturals are narrower, and, despite popular belief, once you get out of the rock paper scissor stage of the game on an even foot, the game devolves into EXACTLY the same midgame skip into lategame scenario that is commonly seen in live games. The point of this paragraph is not to shame or make fun of people that are enthusiastic about times that the game was fun for them, it’s to warn against falling for an illusion: if you truly truly want aggressive play back, this is not the way.
I’ll write some suggestions and examples in the closing paragraph. Please don’t destroy zerg cheese and creative playstile, it’s the one thing i enjoy the most about the game, and i’d hate to lose it because of a misunderstanding.
Part 7 : The mirage of diversity
New patches always bring weeks of excited testing and new builds. This is normal. Please don’t let the initial excitement and build order variety fool you. It is but a mirage, a fun interlude in the boredom of a figured out meta. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy: even if the game ends up being even more stale and boring and figured out in 2 months, the first 2 weeks will always always always be full of new things. Don’t let a couple of weeks of testing ruin the game.
I LOVE DIVERSITY, I LOVE ZERG AGGRESSION, I’M A CHEESE MONSTER ON LADDER, i’m the exact thing the pach claims to want to encourage, so please please heed my warning. To kill my playstile while praising it, while claiming to love it, would truly be tragic
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Part 8 : An alternative path
I’ll be short, there are a lot of different ways to encourage aggressive play, and none of them require a worker change. A lot of the nerfs over the year neutered cheese, and the reason for that is that the community has a very duplicitous relation with it: we love it when we see it, we hate it when it happens to us. Whene cheese is strong enough to be somewhat persistent in pro play, it becomes widespread in the lower league, with all the frustation it causes.
If you truly want strategic variety and aggressive play, here’s some of the options from a zerg perspective(i’ll leave p and t to their respective cheese monsters): revert the ravager morph time nerf, buff spines build time, revert the stalker build time buff, nerf p/t basic antiair(if you want more mutas), nerf p/t basic air to ground defenses, like banshees and oracles(if you want more midgame roach timings), nerf the forge/cannons build time ( if you want more proxy hatches , although this will obviously nerf cannon rush as a result).
Thanks for the attention.
Lorimbo.
TLDR: the worker change kills zerg early/mid game variety due to the lack of larva and the relative speedup of enemy tech v zerg tech, it accomplishes the opposite of what it sets out to do. Please don't be fooled by the freshness of the patch.
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Very good post! Thanks for sharing your opinions.
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don't let reddit see this
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Good post, I hope it gets taken into account before pushing to live.
Long live the Cheeser's Manifesto!
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This was honestly a treat to read
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Good post, half the people who argue that lower worker start leads to increased early agression argue that it's because in 2010/11 there was more early aggression while they apparently have forgotten completely how the meta was in 2014/15
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I'm way too noob to assess your statements but I really appreciate the very detailed and easy to read post & your effort. Thank you very much  & good luck to sc2
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
Excellent read, and interesting, much obliged! Welcome to TL, where have ya been if this is the quality of work you put out? :p
One point I would make is, they may interlink, but an interest in more variety may not necessarily be in the realm of cheese
An increasingly common complaint from Zergs is they feel they can’t be aggressive without all-inning, the Terran and Protoss beasts grow too quickly, which I think has some validity. It’s all-in or crack your knuckles and settle in for droning and growing and trading. To simplify a lot of course.
I think that kinda trend is a combination of Legacy’s eco, balance tweaks and as you say, players getting better and optimising all the time.
The kind of variety I miss, partly being more able to adjust game plans based on scouting early, and forms of aggression combined with eco that are less committal. It’s very tricky to pressure while macroing up, you kinda gotta do crippling damage or just play greedy, a middle between the two kinda doesn’t work. I’m also broad brushing a lot.
You don’t tend to see, for example banking for earlyish muta timings in ZvT anymore. The Terran machine is basically already too big, where before the ability to poke and tick away and pin a Terran back was often worth doing.
Maps bigger than 2 player, also have suffered. The timings have shifted with the greater pace, so if you roll wrong on scouting you don’t really have time to react to either hyper greed, or alternatively an all-in that’s on its way.
Equally, and to your OP, I think cheese, and that risk/reward balance, punishing blind greed etc are also crucial components of variety, but also the real core essence of what SC is all about.
I do desire a bit more other variety but not at the expense of basically entirely neutering Zerg’s ability to cheese some greedy Toss players and what have you.
It may end up being the case that 8 workers would bring some of these improvements I’m pondering, but would require a lot of other adjustments on where timings intersect. And I’m not sure Blizz are necessarily going to commit to that, so we could end up with even less variety, as per what you’ve been testing.
I mean why 8 workers? What’s the actual process there? I’d assume it’s a point between the old and new eco to find some kind of middle ground.
I’m not advocating for 6 workers necessarily, but if you’re gonna do such a radical change, at least you’ve 2 expansions to look at in terms of how they paced and certain things interacted.
8 might work, I dunno, but one thing we can confidently say is we had two games built around 6, and one around 12.
Just changing to 8 without making other tweaks may just lead to wonky intersections of timings. Which seems to be what you’re finding in your testing. Toss by the sounds of what you’re saying is losing less in defensive setup capacity than Zerg is potentially gaining in an offensive one.
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thats a lot of smart and based text
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On May 31 2026 23:31 Charoisaur wrote:
Good post, half the people who argue that lower worker start leads to increased early agression argue that it's because in 2010/11 there was more early aggression while they apparently have forgotten completely how the meta was in 2014/15
Do i really need to post eulogy for the six pool in another place again? 
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United States1941 Posts
I've been watching a lot of hots games recently and the variety of openings is so refreshing. A lot of games are a straight up bops, but Lotv doesn't feel too different-I don't see how that's something you can really complain about. It's what happens when a better player plays a standard game (Inno would define a standard game as early harassment before powering up for a big attack) against someone worse than them.
I hope playing lair zerg will actually be reasonably viable instead of skipping straight to the late game, but we'll have to wait and see.
They obviously need to fix all the issues that come with the change because it's going to be super messy. It'll take at least a year for things to stabilize (imo) and if Blizz isn't willing to follow through on this change with a lot more (and pretty regular) updates, then the game is going to suffer.
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Eyo, thanks for the high quality post!
Love to see insightful thoughts with specific examples, tiimings, etc.
I'm a Terran player so definitely don't know much about the ins and outs of how 8 worker or 12 worker start affects zerg's ability for early aggro.
I believe your examples that zerg early aggro can be worse in many ways. I remember that in WoL/HotS, other than maybe baneling bust or like rushing 5 roaches, zerg was the one usually defending and trying to get their 3rd up and defending harass. In LotV, yes it does seem zerg's ability to zerg rush increased due to various reasons, so i can see why you may prefer how things are now.
But to me this isn't the only early strategic variety people are mentioning.
As a Terran, 6 worker start had way more openings you had to consider (slightly safer, slightly greedier, slightly faster tech, etc.) based on the small opening variations for example Protoss could do. (Fast zealot stalker if they rush gate a little earlier, fast 2 stalker, 1 stalker, etc.).
For example, 12 rax 12 gas, 12 rax 13 gas, 12 rax 15 gas. And whether to make 1-3 marines into reactor, or 1-2 reapers into 1-2 marines into reactor, etc. And these decisions were very important because the wrong choice means you don't hold and you lose to the first few gateway units, or you have to cancel your low ground CC, etc.
And then there's the gas first builds, like 11 gas 12 rax, 11 gas 13 rax.
Now, you mainly just open 1 reaper almost always and even if you do gas first it barely gets your factory/tech up any earlier than a normal build..
An example of a crazy build you could do is like cutting workers super early on and doing something like 9 depot 9 gas 10 rax into factory reactor into 4 hellion rush to hit Protoss before 2nd stalker comes out (I forget the build, but if you're on a 4 player map and the protoss gets greedy and does't scout you in time or goes Nexus first or something, this can be a game ending build).
There are aggro builds where it might not be "smart", or may not have a good "winrate" if done blindly, but if you're hard reading a opponent or know they might get greedy and scout late or such, there are ways to hard punish the opponent for being greedy. And this potential allows for players who are better at reads or mindgames to outplay their opponent.
Classic examples are players like Naniwa doing proxy 2 gate vs Zerg. There was a chance it can be held with good drone micro or for example players like Jaedong figure out you can run the drones back and forth to buy time for lings/roaches. But these kinds of game states I think are mostly gone from LotV because 12 workers makes things more consistent (and 2 player maps) and there's less potential volatility.
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Fully disagree.
Protoss players will learn to adapt to this patch and develop the solid opening that survives anything the Zerg can throw at it. Then, "greed" will be defined as trying to cut corner with that "way too safe" build, and you can get punished by it. So, a cheesy Zerg is someone trying to take advantage of that greed.
I agree with your statement the current Protoss build orders are super safe versus Zerg, probably so much that any of your cheese fail. So, the meta will go toward more economic builds, and cheesers will take care of punishing greedy players.
Perhaps the meta will go towards nexus first, and 8 pooling will punish such builds
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 01 2026 04:47 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Eyo, thanks for the high quality post!
Love to see insightful thoughts with specific examples, tiimings, etc.
I'm a Terran player so definitely don't know much about the ins and outs of how 8 worker or 12 worker start affects zerg's ability for early aggro.
I believe your examples that zerg early aggro can be worse in many ways. I remember that in WoL/HotS, other than maybe baneling bust or like rushing 5 roaches, zerg was the one usually defending and trying to get their 3rd up and defending harass. In LotV, yes it does seem zerg's ability to zerg rush increased due to various reasons, so i can see why you may prefer how things are now.
But to me this isn't the only early strategic variety people are mentioning.
As a Terran, 6 worker start had way more openings you had to consider (slightly safer, slightly greedier, slightly faster tech, etc.) based on the small opening variations for example Protoss could do. (Fast zealot stalker if they rush gate a little earlier, fast 2 stalker, 1 stalker, etc.).
For example, 12 rax 12 gas, 12 rax 13 gas, 12 rax 15 gas. And whether to make 1-3 marines into reactor, or 1-2 reapers into 1-2 marines into reactor, etc. And these decisions were very important because the wrong choice means you don't hold and you lose to the first few gateway units, or you have to cancel your low ground CC, etc.
And then there's the gas first builds, like 11 gas 12 rax, 11 gas 13 rax.
Now, you mainly just open 1 reaper almost always and even if you do gas first it barely gets your factory/tech up any earlier than a normal build..
An example of a crazy build you could do is like cutting workers super early on and doing something like 9 depot 9 gas 10 rax into factory reactor into 4 hellion rush to hit Protoss before 2nd stalker comes out (I forget the build, but if you're on a 4 player map and the protoss gets greedy and does't scout you in time or goes Nexus first or something, this can be a game ending build).
There are aggro builds where it might not be "smart", or may not have a good "winrate" if done blindly, but if you're hard reading a opponent or know they might get greedy and scout late or such, there are ways to hard punish the opponent for being greedy. And this potential allows for players who are better at reads or mindgames to outplay their opponent.
Classic examples are players like Naniwa doing proxy 2 gate vs Zerg. There was a chance it can be held with good drone micro or for example players like Jaedong figure out you can run the drones back and forth to buy time for lings/roaches. But these kinds of game states I think are mostly gone from LotV because 12 workers makes things more consistent (and 2 player maps) and there's less potential volatility.
Also a fine post!
Better articulated some of the things I felt and was trying to say up the page.
These things made a difference, especially at lower levels, at pro level I think subtleties and optimisations still do absolutely exist ofc
Something like a 12 gate, with banked chrono for production there, was almost a different opener than a 13 gate with chrono banked for probes, even though they’re both 1 gate FEs.
I used to like a variant of the former in PvT, do a very light stalker/zealot based pressure out of your first gate. You could hit quickly to annoy your opponent a bunch. Either they skipped a bunker, in which case glhf dealing with that, or you might be able to cancel a building one, or simply run past it.
You’re not gonna kill your opponent, but you can get more economically ahead while being aggressive, than playing a more greedy variant. And made for some fun micro battles too.
With Legacy’s pace, it’s difficult to do an eco-focused poke with just a few tweaks to an economic build, you just can’t get there in time to do much, and you have to rely more on dedicated harass units to pressure. Oracles or adepts on the Protoss side for example
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Excellent post Lorimbo. This patch does not account for any of the other changes we got in LOTV. Adepts, oracles, liberators etc did not exist in WoL. The intern is trying to half ass going backwards in time but not thinking about any of the important moving parts. Especially disastrous when you keep in mind how little support blizzard gives-one patch a year with no dedicated balance or sc2 team.
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the game is alive! love reading the discussions!
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 01 2026 05:14 Similar_Fix wrote:
Fully disagree.
Protoss players will learn to adapt to this patch and develop the solid opening that survives anything the Zerg can throw at it. Then, "greed" will be defined as trying to cut corner with that "way too safe" build, and you can get punished by it. So, a cheesy Zerg is someone trying to take advantage of that greed.
I agree with your statement the current Protoss build orders are super safe versus Zerg, probably so much that any of your cheese fail. So, the meta will go toward more economic builds, and cheesers will take care of punishing greedy players.
Perhaps the meta will go towards nexus first, and 8 pooling will punish such builds
You can’t get that much more economical than some Toss builds already are in PvZ. Adepts wedged into a sim city and Oracles are amongst the strongest in the game in small number versus small number scenarios
I dunno if the tradeoff in playing more greedy is worth the downside enough for that to become a trend that Zergs can then circle around and punish
But I mean I really don’t know, which does make this potential sea change patch quite interesting and exciting to see how it does affect things
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I get what you're saying about the larva and adept problems, but why would you match either the time or the unit counts of the "old" cheeses? Why does aggression need to have 12-14 workers to be viable? A cheese needs to hit when there's a timing that so happens to be a weak point for the opponent compared to what you hit them with, and surely that will work out completely differently with this patch. Are you sure you're done experimenting already?
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If going from 12 to 8 ruins Zerg cheese then why was it viable at 6 workers?
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On June 01 2026 07:09 MountainGoat wrote:
If going from 12 to 8 ruins Zerg cheese then why was it viable at 6 workers?
If you read his post, it would tell you. Adepts did not exist when we had 6 workers at wings of liberty. Countless other things have changed between WoL and LotV that are not being accounted for which is a recipe for disaster. We are not going back to WoL in any way shape or form. It's just LoTV but worse.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 01 2026 07:09 MountainGoat wrote:
If going from 12 to 8 ruins Zerg cheese then why was it viable at 6 workers?
It really depends on what x other faction has at x timing versus what Zerg timings are
A WoL pool cheese could be fiendish because the Toss wouldn’t necessarily have closed their sim city yet, or perhaps neglected a scout (and kinda deserve the loss) Whereas you could hit off a different worker start and have more lings as a Zerg, but if the Toss has plugged their wall, that outright outweighs extra lings.
To massively oversimplify ofc. And this change, if it even goes through is new, people may work things out.
Other stuff can change because of these interactions for the positive. Protoss versus Random is way less annoying in Legacy than WoL because catch-all openings are more viable due to that increased eco and pacing
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And also everyone seems to forget that Larva injection was nerf to 3 from 4 in LotV which further slows down how fast Zerg can grow in the early game compared to before
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The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse.
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On June 01 2026 13:09 TelecoM wrote:
The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse.
Lorimbo just articulated a full essay proving that the exact opposite is true. Not sure you are rage baiting or what.
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On June 01 2026 16:05 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 13:09 TelecoM wrote:
The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse. Lorimbo just articulated a full essay proving that the exact opposite is true. Not sure you are rage baiting or what.
He gave his elaborated opinion on the race he's been playing for 3 years within the only economic system he's ever known, so while he might be right, he also might not. This is just his perspective, it's not proving anything.
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How about we remove ravagers and adepts 
On a more serious Note, very nice writeup, personally i didnt mind the slightly slower start but with these issues blizz should Take a Look If they wanna Go through with 8 workers and Change Things around it or If that should be too much.
We cannot forget that lotv Balance and other Changes were all done for a 12 worker start so alot of Them Probably would need to Change again.
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United Kingdom20341 Posts
I think you are missing one of the more important changes: bases mine out much slower on PTR. That makes more difference than the starting worker count as to when you must take bases 3, 4, 5, because you can keep many more workers active for much longer without having those bases active.
I do think that change impacts protoss and terran a lot more, though.
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Very brave to post what is basically a diehard cheeser's confession. I think it's a bit generous to assume that people like watching cheese but don't like it when it happens to them... I think that in general, cheesers are looked down upon and derided, and cheese isn't held in high regard. Maybe Blizzard's changes were aimed to, in part, minimize the impact of these frustrating strategies.
Perhaps you could branch out and learn the game past the 5 minute mark? Who knows, maybe you'll enjoy it the same way most people who play the game do.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 02 2026 00:41 Jealous wrote:
Very brave to post what is basically a diehard cheeser's confession. I think it's a bit generous to assume that people like watching cheese but don't like it when it happens to them... I think that in general, cheesers are looked down upon and derided, and cheese isn't held in high regard. Maybe Blizzard's changes were aimed to, in part, minimize the impact of these frustrating strategies.
Perhaps you could branch out and learn the game past the 5 minute mark? Who knows, maybe you'll enjoy it the same way most people who play the game do.
I think it’s multifaceted, I both like and dislike cheese.
I think it’s fun in a series, where you have mindgames, may be exploiting your opponent’s tendencies, and those attempts to second guess your opponent and win the build war. I also can see the fun in devising fiendish cheeses and allins, build innovation is cool. Not something I’m adept in mind!
I get frustrated on ladder when it’s like, my opponent just has their cheese, and they just do their cheese every game, and they’ll almost win or lose based on their opponent’s chosen opener, which they can’t know in advance. I don’t get frustrated from losing, I just don’t really see the point.
My personal definition of cheese is that it’s blindly executed, other opinions may vary!
An all-in is a calculated play, it based off something. But it’s not a cheese, that’s summat else.
I think they’re sometimes a bit conflated, but are a bit different. I think many who are interested in more aggressive options it kinda comes more in the form of ‘if I see something my opponent’s skimping, I should be able to adjust and try kill them’, and less wanting blind cheese to be especially good
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On June 02 2026 00:41 Jealous wrote:
Very brave to post what is basically a diehard cheeser's confession. I think it's a bit generous to assume that people like watching cheese but don't like it when it happens to them... I think that in general, cheesers are looked down upon and derided, and cheese isn't held in high regard. Maybe Blizzard's changes were aimed to, in part, minimize the impact of these frustrating strategies.
Perhaps you could branch out and learn the game past the 5 minute mark? Who knows, maybe you'll enjoy it the same way most people who play the game do.
-shrug- I don't think the community at large has a healthy understanding of 'cheese' as a concept. It seems like it's mostly used as derogatory and emotional rather than an actual technical definition, and that emotional definition feels broadly like 'Strategy that would have lost immediately if I knew it was coming'. In reality all of that fringe space of strategy should be considered valid, but is instead considered by many to be a thing preventing them from 'playing the real game'.
I'm not advocating for more (forgive my dated references) BitByBit or CombatEx, but just pointing to JulyZerg as a 'cheesy as fuck' player who still had respect. "Macro game" being the unspoken gentleman's agreement on how to play sc2 is bullshit.
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On June 01 2026 16:17 darklycid wrote:How about we remove ravagers and adepts
There are more units that should be taken out of the game. Lurkers, liberators, disruptors, and-
Hey, wait a minute!
What if we just got rid of LotV altogether? Post SH-nerf Heart of the Swarm was the best state this game has ever been in. The people aren't ready for this truth though.
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On June 01 2026 16:16 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 16:05 sidasf wrote:On June 01 2026 13:09 TelecoM wrote:
The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse. Lorimbo just articulated a full essay proving that the exact opposite is true. Not sure you are rage baiting or what. He gave his elaborated opinion on the race he's been playing for 3 years within the only economic system he's ever known, so while he might be right, he also might not. This is just his perspective, it's not proving anything.
He didn't give an opinion though. He play-tested it (I will just take his statement as face-value until for example Harstem says "no idea who that guy is"). It's also not just a perspective, it is the perspective of a high-level cheeser who clearly puts lots of effort and planning into his builds instead of just going "Zergling goes brrrr".
As far as I can tell, the working theory "the changes will benefit the early game and make it more divers" is disproven with this. Ball is now in the other sides court to prove that it actually helps the early game and Lorimbo is just not looking at it right. But saying "it's not proving anything" while the counter-argument is essentially "it should technically theoretically somehow improve because that's how I remember it from earlier versions of the game"...that's very vague.
What if we just got rid of LotV altogether? Post SH-nerf Heart of the Swarm was the best state this game has ever been in. The people aren't ready for this truth though.
Can't do that, Lilbow would have prepared for nothing.
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we had cheese with 6 workers, we had cheese with 12 workers. just this RSL i saw cheese from zerg. i dont think its dead, maybe its narrowed? but either way I think it will always be there, just in different forms, as players will exploit greed until they are punished. Especially in tournament play where they may mix it in to get an edge.
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Oracle.
Just one unit. A single unit that warps the entire PvZ matchup.
It’s simply too versatile. It scouts, it’s practically mandatory for defending a fast third Nexus, it harasses, and it shuts down a variety of cheese strategies. Then the mid game arrives and it’s still incredibly useful: it provides detection, helps with map control, and contributes to defense through Stasis Wards. Even in the late game it remains important for Tempest-based compositions.
No single unit should be this universally useful. It has a direct and significant negative impact on gameplay and build diversity because it covers too many roles at once.
I’m not sure exactly how it should be reworked, but considering that Zerg has no T1 anti-air unit, perhaps the Oracle’s damage should be replaced with some other form of utility.
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Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
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On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
Holy fuck, what a post.
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On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
Literally who are you
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On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
I suppose this long ranting personal attack has nothing to do with you losing to me on ladder over and over again and having a crying fit about zerg in my dms, right?
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On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
Says a low gm mad terran player that always bms and whines about balance and blames blizzard instead of himself being dogshit, truly an sc2 player
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On June 03 2026 00:50 venificus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game. Literally who are you
My name is Psz and i’m a rather infamous terran player on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play.
Over the course of my short career, in the last 16 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to PtitDrogo, Spirit, and most recently a tie vs Classic.
And you are praising this guy.
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On June 03 2026 01:02 Dragonbornsc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game. Says a low gm mad terran player that always bms and whines about balance and blames blizzard instead of himself being dogshit, truly an sc2 player
appreciate you making the effort to create a new profile for this post
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On June 03 2026 01:11 Psz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 00:50 venificus wrote:On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game. Literally who are you My name is Psz and i’m a rather infamous terran player on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play. Over the course of my short career, in the last 16 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to PtitDrogo, Spirit, and most recently a tie vs Classic. And you are praising this guy.
I have literally never heard of you.
Compared to lorimbo who everyone has been talking about in the scene the last year, is in a regular top YouTube channels like Harstem and got invited to play in HSC.
'ok buddy'
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But to talk about the actual thread - lorimbo makes solid points.
I was initially excited by this change and yeah was trying to come up with some cheeses but similarly found myself really hit by the low larva problem.
People should also acknowledge just how much diversity there is for zerg openings in the current patch - at least in ZvP and ZvZ. There is not just loads of cheeses, but the popularisation of 15 hatch 15 pool (before overlord, supply tricked) and all its variations have opened a massive can of tasty worms of possibilities which have been really fun to explore and see.
It is true that any early aggressive potential against Terran has been nerfed out the game, and this patch won't make it any better. Not just cheese, but two base all-ins like nydus got nerfed hard. The 8 worker change won't fix this, but might just remove the options vs toss as well.
I still like the low worker start though for mixing things up - but I wonder if we mix up in a better way. The warpgate changes are really cool - giving you a decision between whether to use gateways and warpgates. Some other change similar to that for zerg or terran might give us the mix up and changes people desire.
Something Lorimbo did not mention but I also think hurts Zerg cheese particularly hard is this change:
- Hatchery supply provided reduced from 6 to 4
On one base this is four less lings you can have in your attack before an overlord, and eight less lings if you are doing a 1 and a half base all-in.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 03 2026 01:49 AicyDC wrote:
But to talk about the actual thread - lorimbo makes solid points.
I was initially excited by this change and yeah was trying to come up with some cheeses but similarly found myself really hit by the low larva problem.
People should also acknowledge just how much diversity there is for zerg openings in the current patch - at least in ZvP and ZvZ. There is not just loads of cheeses, but the popularisation of 15 hatch 15 pool (before overlord, supply tricked) and all its variations have opened a massive can of tasty worms of possibilities which have been really fun to explore and see.
It is true that any early aggressive potential against Terran has been nerfed out the game, and this patch won't make it any better. Not just cheese, but two base all-ins like nydus got nerfed hard. The 8 worker change won't fix this, but might just remove the options vs toss as well.
I still like the low worker start though for mixing things up - but I wonder if we mix up in a better way. The warpgate changes are really cool - giving you a decision between whether to use gateways and warpgates. Some other change similar to that for zerg or terran might give us the mix up and changes people desire.
Something Lorimbo did not mention but I also think hurts Zerg cheese particularly hard is this change:
- Hatchery supply provided reduced from 6 to 4
On one base this is four less lings you can have in your attack before an overlord, and eight less lings if you are doing a 1 and a half base all-in.
It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco
Tech timings and pain points aren’t crazily different, relatively speaking
Based on PTR stuff I’ve watched, you’re basically getting the same game it’s just a bit slower, but that may change.
The diversity doesn’t seem much bigger, least as yet.
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On June 03 2026 02:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 01:49 AicyDC wrote:
But to talk about the actual thread - lorimbo makes solid points.
I was initially excited by this change and yeah was trying to come up with some cheeses but similarly found myself really hit by the low larva problem.
People should also acknowledge just how much diversity there is for zerg openings in the current patch - at least in ZvP and ZvZ. There is not just loads of cheeses, but the popularisation of 15 hatch 15 pool (before overlord, supply tricked) and all its variations have opened a massive can of tasty worms of possibilities which have been really fun to explore and see.
It is true that any early aggressive potential against Terran has been nerfed out the game, and this patch won't make it any better. Not just cheese, but two base all-ins like nydus got nerfed hard. The 8 worker change won't fix this, but might just remove the options vs toss as well.
I still like the low worker start though for mixing things up - but I wonder if we mix up in a better way. The warpgate changes are really cool - giving you a decision between whether to use gateways and warpgates. Some other change similar to that for zerg or terran might give us the mix up and changes people desire.
Something Lorimbo did not mention but I also think hurts Zerg cheese particularly hard is this change:
- Hatchery supply provided reduced from 6 to 4
On one base this is four less lings you can have in your attack before an overlord, and eight less lings if you are doing a 1 and a half base all-in.
It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco Tech timings and pain points aren’t crazily different, relatively speaking Based on PTR stuff I’ve watched, you’re basically getting the same game it’s just a bit slower, but that may change. The diversity doesn’t seem much bigger, least as yet.
"It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco "
I don't see how this is true.
LotV is was just HotS with some new units added, and the 12 worker start. Its not like they did things like change pylon build times and a bunch of fine tunning so it was "actively built" for a 12 worker start.
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On June 03 2026 02:15 AicyDC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 02:10 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2026 01:49 AicyDC wrote:
But to talk about the actual thread - lorimbo makes solid points.
I was initially excited by this change and yeah was trying to come up with some cheeses but similarly found myself really hit by the low larva problem.
People should also acknowledge just how much diversity there is for zerg openings in the current patch - at least in ZvP and ZvZ. There is not just loads of cheeses, but the popularisation of 15 hatch 15 pool (before overlord, supply tricked) and all its variations have opened a massive can of tasty worms of possibilities which have been really fun to explore and see.
It is true that any early aggressive potential against Terran has been nerfed out the game, and this patch won't make it any better. Not just cheese, but two base all-ins like nydus got nerfed hard. The 8 worker change won't fix this, but might just remove the options vs toss as well.
I still like the low worker start though for mixing things up - but I wonder if we mix up in a better way. The warpgate changes are really cool - giving you a decision between whether to use gateways and warpgates. Some other change similar to that for zerg or terran might give us the mix up and changes people desire.
Something Lorimbo did not mention but I also think hurts Zerg cheese particularly hard is this change:
- Hatchery supply provided reduced from 6 to 4
On one base this is four less lings you can have in your attack before an overlord, and eight less lings if you are doing a 1 and a half base all-in.
It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco Tech timings and pain points aren’t crazily different, relatively speaking Based on PTR stuff I’ve watched, you’re basically getting the same game it’s just a bit slower, but that may change. The diversity doesn’t seem much bigger, least as yet. "It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco " I don't see how this is true. LotV is was just HotS with some new units added, and the 12 worker start. Its not like they did things like change pylon build times and a bunch of fine tunning so it was "actively built" for a 12 worker start.
And those units were based around 12 worker starts. As lorimbo stated adepts already break the game in pvz. They also changed macro mechanics in LOTV and did a bunch of balance changes that revolve around the 12 worker start. The game was literally redesigned for a 12 worker start.
On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game.
5.8k Has been high GM for at least the past 5 years, where have you been? Lorimbo has been featured numerous times on Harstem's videos and has cast HSC. He's rather well known and frankly I have never heard of you. It's laughable that you think his analysis includes 'fake numbers'. He has done extensive testing and he's right.
I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game
I do agree here, but I'm not hopeful. Looks like a lot will change that will end up killing the game.
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On June 02 2026 13:04 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 16:16 Creager wrote:On June 01 2026 16:05 sidasf wrote:On June 01 2026 13:09 TelecoM wrote:
The economy changes are going to make cheese and all in more viable, it makes the game more diverse. Lorimbo just articulated a full essay proving that the exact opposite is true. Not sure you are rage baiting or what. He gave his elaborated opinion on the race he's been playing for 3 years within the only economic system he's ever known, so while he might be right, he also might not. This is just his perspective, it's not proving anything. He didn't give an opinion though. He play-tested it (I will just take his statement as face-value until for example Harstem says "no idea who that guy is"). It's also not just a perspective, it is the perspective of a high-level cheeser who clearly puts lots of effort and planning into his builds instead of just going "Zergling goes brrrr". As far as I can tell, the working theory "the changes will benefit the early game and make it more divers" is disproven with this. Ball is now in the other sides court to prove that it actually helps the early game and Lorimbo is just not looking at it right. But saying "it's not proving anything" while the counter-argument is essentially "it should technically theoretically somehow improve because that's how I remember it from earlier versions of the game"...that's very vague. Show nested quote +What if we just got rid of LotV altogether? Post SH-nerf Heart of the Swarm was the best state this game has ever been in. The people aren't ready for this truth though. Can't do that, Lilbow would have prepared for nothing.
Of course it's just an opinion at the end of the day, let's not argue semantics here. Otherwise you'd also need to take PiG's opinion on the matter at face value and he's a strong advocate of the reduced worker count and backs it up with good arguments (IMHO), he's another high-level player and also has some empirical evidence of played games by other high-level players using mods with lower worker-counts (application is limited due to the other balance changes currently on PTR, though), but for some reason we don't take this as fact instead of an opinion? Why exactly?! Because it's a subjective take, because people have personal preferences and they aren't omniscient, simple as that.
Lorimbo made a good post and brought up good points, I'm happy and thankful we have people that are really good at expressing their thoughts, but he's still just one voice of many.
I've seen really fun games played on PTR, so far. Is everything perfect? Far from it, but that's what the PTR is there for, identifying issues and making adjustments (or scrapping some of the proposed changes altogether due to overwhelming negative feedback).
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 03 2026 02:15 AicyDC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 02:10 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2026 01:49 AicyDC wrote:
But to talk about the actual thread - lorimbo makes solid points.
I was initially excited by this change and yeah was trying to come up with some cheeses but similarly found myself really hit by the low larva problem.
People should also acknowledge just how much diversity there is for zerg openings in the current patch - at least in ZvP and ZvZ. There is not just loads of cheeses, but the popularisation of 15 hatch 15 pool (before overlord, supply tricked) and all its variations have opened a massive can of tasty worms of possibilities which have been really fun to explore and see.
It is true that any early aggressive potential against Terran has been nerfed out the game, and this patch won't make it any better. Not just cheese, but two base all-ins like nydus got nerfed hard. The 8 worker change won't fix this, but might just remove the options vs toss as well.
I still like the low worker start though for mixing things up - but I wonder if we mix up in a better way. The warpgate changes are really cool - giving you a decision between whether to use gateways and warpgates. Some other change similar to that for zerg or terran might give us the mix up and changes people desire.
Something Lorimbo did not mention but I also think hurts Zerg cheese particularly hard is this change:
- Hatchery supply provided reduced from 6 to 4
On one base this is four less lings you can have in your attack before an overlord, and eight less lings if you are doing a 1 and a half base all-in.
It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco Tech timings and pain points aren’t crazily different, relatively speaking Based on PTR stuff I’ve watched, you’re basically getting the same game it’s just a bit slower, but that may change. The diversity doesn’t seem much bigger, least as yet. "It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco " I don't see how this is true. LotV is was just HotS with some new units added, and the 12 worker start. Its not like they did things like change pylon build times and a bunch of fine tunning so it was "actively built" for a 12 worker start.
They actively changed stuff for that change, why do (did) slow warpins exist? Because fast warpins with that eco stat are broken.
Why does Zerg larva and injection work differently? Same reason
I don’t like 12 worker eco, but they changed things to make that work. The game was heavily designed around that.
Current patch you’re taking the changes made to make 12 eco work, but cramming it into an 8 worker start, and not all the timings match up for this reason. But you also didn’t revert to 6 workers which at least was tried and tested through 2 full expansions
I don’t see how this is a complicated concept. WoL and HoTS were balanced entirely around 6 worker eco, Legacy 12.
Just going ‘let’s have 8’ without adjusting other things is liable to cause problems, because no iteration of ladder SC2 has ever had that, and you haven’t adjusted timings to reflect that
The classic ‘ETA’ triangle need to be balanced (economy vs army vs tech)
If you just arbtrarily change eco without adjusting tech, it causes problems.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On June 03 2026 03:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 02:15 AicyDC wrote:On June 03 2026 02:10 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2026 01:49 AicyDC wrote:
But to talk about the actual thread - lorimbo makes solid points.
I was initially excited by this change and yeah was trying to come up with some cheeses but similarly found myself really hit by the low larva problem.
People should also acknowledge just how much diversity there is for zerg openings in the current patch - at least in ZvP and ZvZ. There is not just loads of cheeses, but the popularisation of 15 hatch 15 pool (before overlord, supply tricked) and all its variations have opened a massive can of tasty worms of possibilities which have been really fun to explore and see.
It is true that any early aggressive potential against Terran has been nerfed out the game, and this patch won't make it any better. Not just cheese, but two base all-ins like nydus got nerfed hard. The 8 worker change won't fix this, but might just remove the options vs toss as well.
I still like the low worker start though for mixing things up - but I wonder if we mix up in a better way. The warpgate changes are really cool - giving you a decision between whether to use gateways and warpgates. Some other change similar to that for zerg or terran might give us the mix up and changes people desire.
Something Lorimbo did not mention but I also think hurts Zerg cheese particularly hard is this change:
- Hatchery supply provided reduced from 6 to 4
On one base this is four less lings you can have in your attack before an overlord, and eight less lings if you are doing a 1 and a half base all-in.
It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco Tech timings and pain points aren’t crazily different, relatively speaking Based on PTR stuff I’ve watched, you’re basically getting the same game it’s just a bit slower, but that may change. The diversity doesn’t seem much bigger, least as yet. "It’s an 8 worker patch in a game actively built for a 12 worker start, and WoL and HotS were built for a 6 worker eco " I don't see how this is true. LotV is was just HotS with some new units added, and the 12 worker start. Its not like they did things like change pylon build times and a bunch of fine tunning so it was "actively built" for a 12 worker start. They actively changed stuff for that change, why do (did) slow warpins exist? Because fast warpins with that eco stat are broken. Why does Zerg larva and injection work differently? Same reason I don’t like 12 worker eco, but they changed things to make that work. The game was heavily designed around that. Current patch you’re taking the changes made to make 12 eco work, but cramming it into an 8 worker start, and not all the timings match up for this reason. But you also didn’t revert to 6 workers which at least was tried and tested through 2 full expansions I don’t see how this is a complicated concept. WoL and HoTS were balanced entirely around 6 worker eco, Legacy 12. Just going ‘let’s have 8’ without adjusting other things is liable to cause problems, because no iteration of ladder SC2 has ever had that, and you haven’t adjusted timings to reflect that The classic ‘ETA’ triangle need to be balanced (economy vs army vs tech) If you just arbtrarily change eco without adjusting tech, it causes problems, because tech timings are literally build around previous eco timings It gets messy potentially. Even with the slower eco, Protoss and Terran tech isn’t that much slower, but the Zerg eco rampup is, and that distorts things
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France13004 Posts
On June 03 2026 01:31 AicyDC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 01:11 Psz wrote:On June 03 2026 00:50 venificus wrote:On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game. Literally who are you My name is Psz and i’m a rather infamous terran player on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play. Over the course of my short career, in the last 16 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to PtitDrogo, Spirit, and most recently a tie vs Classic. And you are praising this guy. I have literally never heard of you. Compared to lorimbo who everyone has been talking about in the scene the last year, is in a regular top YouTube channels like Harstem and got invited to play in HSC. 'ok buddy'
I mean both Lorimbo and Psz are at like 1.3k aligulac rating, so they are both in the same tier of unknown players
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On June 03 2026 15:07 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 01:31 AicyDC wrote:On June 03 2026 01:11 Psz wrote:On June 03 2026 00:50 venificus wrote:On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game. Literally who are you My name is Psz and i’m a rather infamous terran player on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play. Over the course of my short career, in the last 16 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to PtitDrogo, Spirit, and most recently a tie vs Classic. And you are praising this guy. I have literally never heard of you. Compared to lorimbo who everyone has been talking about in the scene the last year, is in a regular top YouTube channels like Harstem and got invited to play in HSC. 'ok buddy' I mean both Lorimbo and Psz are at like 1.3k aligulac rating, so they are both in the same tier of unknown players
my point exactly
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
Regardless of who people are or their rep or infamy, or such pissing contests, can we like, talk about the content and arguments made? That would be nice.
I have noted my crits and will reiterate namely that aggressive play and cheese are bothers, but they’re not the same thing. Cheesing being worse doesn’t necessarily mean aggressive play is, and I’m interested to see how that develops.
It’s also early doors, trying to replicate a certain stratagem around the shifts in timings and finding they don’t work, doesn’t necessarily mean that other strategems aren’t viable.
But Lorimbo has at least tested various things, even if x not working doesn’t mean y new thing doesn’t exist, they’ve done that. And I think some points are kinda hard to argue against. Namely that Zerg larvae production was rebalanced for 12 workers versus how it was balanced for 6. Just changing to 8, which is closer to 6 if my maths holds up, but keeping how it functions around 12 absolutely has effects.
Also even last change the Queen/hatch research swap was built for the 12 start, but it may not be a good change if we’re going to flip over to 8 without making further tweaks
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One of the first things I noticed is that 50e nexus on 8 workers is gonna be broken. 0 is weaker than 0 at 6 workers, and Chrono is also weaker pr. Energy, so 0 is a bit rough, but 50 is gonna be wild. Zerg also doesn't have the benefit of getting its 4 first workers quicker either that they did on 12 worker. So, it's hard to gauge how much of this is due to these sort of things as opposed to the earlier scouting, vs. bigger breadth of openings.
There's a reason we went to 12 workers and that has to do with, the game being figured out and therefore it felt like the start was just a waste of time. Now that wasn't exactly fair either, some depth was certainly lost, and it's reflected in players opinions at the time, they were exactly half and half for and against. This also has to do with the feeling at the start, no more easing you into it, a loss of feeling of control. Too many things happening at the same time, right out the gate. People were also cheering the loss of cheese, but 2016 gave us exactly that. I think the idea that 8- worker start should increase aggression is a fallacy, but it should increase the amount of curve balls you can throw. More available cheese, but not exactly more powerful aggression.
I'm either for or against, I also don't know if 12 is the right amount for the fast version, but I like 8 for the slow version.
The mineral change will probably do more for allowing 1-base plays, and will allow turtling, prepare for a lot more mech.
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On June 03 2026 00:54 Lorimbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2026 00:12 Psz wrote:
Since when is your 5.7-5.8k all-time high considered "high GM"?
I have never ever heard your name mentioned in interviews, so it's probably a bit of a stretch to call yourself "cheese monster" and "THE target audience for changes" in the same post without any external support. Zerg strategic leaders are the top zergs found in the Aligulac top 10.
Having taken the time and effort to list every pro who (might) have dropped a map vs you tells everything we need to know about your goals and self-perceived achievements. This post is a clear example of undeserved ego inflation leading to excess delusion.
Cheese has always been and will always be part of the game, the offense often requiring considerably less effort than the defense. That has been a clear issue below the highest level since early Wings of Liberty, often rewarding less skilled players with undeserved wins. That's what usually leads to large parts of the player base quitting the game.
In an ideal balance environment, 5k players should never ever take a game off of pros, because the skill difference is simply too large. Upsets could happen, but this is way beyond an upset.
That said, cheese SHOULD be the part of the game for obvious reasons, but executing certain agressive builds should require careful preparation and execution instead of getting easy build order wins vs meta builds or a quick tactic ending the game.
Your post calling for nerfing P/T basic anti air and basic air to ground is an undisguised way of calling for even more undeserved free wins, so you can expand your self-perceived list of achievements in your next forum post.
Hopefully the balance team, whoever it is, can ignore positive comments convinced by your unfounded self-coronation as zerg's strategic leader for agression, your fake meticulousness of throwing around random numbers, and tryhard eloquence trying to mask the essence of nonsense. I hope we get a somewhat playable version of StarCraft, instead of excessive changes completely destroying our beloved game. I suppose this long ranting personal attack has nothing to do with you losing to me on ladder over and over again and having a crying fit about zerg in my dms, right?
Man wrote 8 paragraphs and still managed to not have a single sentence attempt to refute/contradict/dispute any of the actual substance in your original post - it's safe to say that this person is having a tantrum.
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i have a 14 pool semi-cheese opening for Zerg. When I'm in the mood for it... i run it repeatedly. i'm not trying to optimize my ladder standing ... i'm trying to optimize my fun. meh.
when i play Random i sometimes like to lie to my opponent about what race i am.
its funny when my opponent wins and messages me for 20 minutes gloating over his big win.
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On June 05 2026 06:55 JimmyJRaynor wrote:when i play Random i sometimes like to lie to my opponent about what race i am. its funny when my opponent wins and messages me for 20 minutes gloating over his big win.
this is gold
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I can't wait for this patch to hit, please hurry up and bring back 8 workers.
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I need to cheese more lol
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On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Hello everyone, my name is Lorimbo and i’m a rather infamous zerg cheeser on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play. I’m writing this post as a last desperate attempt to save what i most dearly love about sc2: actual aggression in the early game. This will be most likely a very long and detailed post, so i’ll put a TLDR at the end.
Let’s start with the most important details first: in the past 5 days, i’ve played about 100 games and 30 hours of ptr, mostly focusing on zvp, and in a minor part, on zvt. All of the testing was done against mid GM+ opponents or pro players. My biggest passion in sc2 has been making new build orders and figuring out new metas , i am THE target audience for these changes that are meant to promote strategic diversity, and yet the PTR patch is making me strongly consider straight up quitting sc2 for good.
My hypothesis, which i strongly believe in after extensive testing, is that at least as far as zerg is concerned, early game cheese is essentially dead, and build order variety is gutted even more than in the live patch. So, why do i think that?
This is an appeal to authority. Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter who says or does it.
On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 1 : The larvae problem.
Let’s start from a very basic explanation of high level zerg cheese. Essentially cheesing is a three step process: first we set up a basic level of economy, which allows us to constantly produce units, we are then teching up to our desired tech level, such as getting a pool+ speed, a roach warren, a bane nest, or whatever the specific cheese requires.
Lastly there is the execution step, in which we use the units/static defense to actually try and either win the game on the spot or get an economic advantage big enough to later convert into a win.
The 8 workers start fundamentally messes with this process in several ways, rendering it non functional. I’ll explain it as simply as i can: for any serious cheese, our economic output HAS to be 12 workers at the very minimum (and realistically 14+). Easy enough, just make drones at the start, right? Wrong!
On the current live patch, i start with 12 workers and 3 larvae; I can choose to go up to 14 (for example when proxy hatching), bank the remaining larvae, and accumulate 2 more while teching up, thus having exactly 3 larvae for when my pool is done. On ptr, going up to 12 workers leaves me with 0 larvae. In other words, compared to the ptr, i start any cheese down 3 larvae.
There were serious cheeses long before Zerg had 12 workers that worked fine. You need to address the years of SC2 history where this was the case and explain why that isn't the case now, when cheeses worked with 12 and 6 workers. What is unique today?
On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 2 : The tech problem
BUT LORIMBO, i hear you say, just as your cheese is delayed, so will be the defenses of the opposing player, since they’re also starting with less workers, thus resulting into more cheese options, greater variety and so on and so forth! Unfortunately this is not only wrong, but the opposite is true.
Let’s go back to our 12 workers cheese example: by the time i get to 12 workers, i have no larvae, and my protoss opponent has 11 workers, 1 extra chrono and a completed pylon. I want you guys to focus on the pylon: it not only functions as a supply expansion, but also, and this is the CRITICAL key to understand the problem, as a tech speedup.
The reason for this is that in starcraft, pylons(and supply depots) are required to build gates/ raxes. This essentially means that on ptr, not only am i slowed down by the lack of larvae, but my opponent starts 18 seconds ahead in their tech trees. This problem doesn’t only affect cheeses: when playing what we tested to be one of the more efficient hatch first openings (14h 16p 17g), we realized that the first adepts hits so much “faster”(relatively to our tech/unit) compared to live.
It has a much greater window of time to punish our lack of speed, and generally prevent the zerg from taking map control. In fact this window is so big, that instead of the usual 2 adepts harrass, you can easily get away with harrassing with 3 adepts for quite a while, since the speed won’t come online until much much later.\
By continuing to explore 12 worker cheese you are leaving out too much. The 6 worker builds didn't work when we started with 12 either, more analysis is needed to claim here they don't work. Feels like you are going back to what you used to do and wondering why it doesn't work while not trying to invent the new meta.
Discussing the Adept so much, but not mentioning the Ravager feels wrong. The Ravager is powerful larva efficient unit that makes Zerg a lot more dangerous early.
On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 3 : What does it actually look like?
Let’s circle back to the main issue at hand: what the 8 workers start means for aggressive play as zerg. Essentially, there are two ways to look at this: either I try to match the timing of live, or i try to match the unit count. Taking a basic 17g 16p 18h ravager ling flood as an example, we’re supposed to be hitting at 3.40 with 3 ravagers and about 20 speedlings, while having 17 workers ,2 bases and a queen at home.
I tested these builds several times, trying to first match the timing (3.40), then the unit count(the 3 ravs, 20 lings). In the first case, i had to cut out the queen, 2 workers, and about 10 lings, and when i showed up (this game was played against harstem and recorded), he had 4 units and 3 batteries+ a nexus, about twice as much as you can afford on live. So not only did i have to completely gut any potential follow up and make the attack much weaker (no queen means no inject means even less lings in the long run), but my opponents early tech was so much faster that he had more units than me! The second approach was even worse: by matching the unit count, i arrive so unbelievably late that my opponent once again has an extremely comfortable defense, even if taken off guard.
Again, you are trying to work builds that won't work because the game changed. Every race needs to adapt to these changes. If a Protoss player comes in and whines that his favorite 12 worker two base all-in doesn't work anymore... it means nothing except he needs to stop doing it and invent a new build.
The builds in HOTS and WOL were, much, much different than we have in LOTV. They were not just quickly adapted to LOTV because the number of workers changed.
On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 4 : Scouting and opponents’ skill
This is the inevitable paragraph where i dispel some commonly held misconceptions which might otherwise bias the readers. Let’s start off by clarifying that all calculations made in this thread are purely compared to the same situation in the live game, and that the skill of my opponents has nothing to do with the calculations. In other words, the fact that i was playing against equally good or even better players has no bearing on the efficacy of the cheese.
Over the course of my short career, in the last 3 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to, Hero, Maxpax, Elazer, Byun, Ryung, Percival, Creator and Classic+ most likely your favourite pro player too. That is to say, top pro players CAN and WILL be cheesed on live, they are not immune to cheese whatsoever, and are in fact quite susceptible to it.
The bar to defend any cheese on ptr is MUCH lower than live, and thus the number of possible aggressive early game ideas inevitably approaches 0. Secondly, scouting did not actually get any harder, at least not against zerg.
Once again, while on paper the cost of a worker scouting early with a lower worker count is much greater than on live, in reality this is more than compensated by the tech advantage previously discussed+ the lack of larvae. The thing that actually got slowed down, from our testing, is either the first expansion or the first T2 tech (heavy factory units for terran, stargate for protoss), depending on how the player decides to play (early expansions with late tech seem to be the more optimal way atm).
And before you ask me, no, i tested it, the late stargate is still more than in time to defend a speedling attack on the third, and you don’t need sg units to defend your natural, not on live, and even less on ptr, where you have significantly more time to make units. On a similar note, the warpgate changes mostly do not impact early cheeses: in a standard live game, warpgate finishes by 4.10ish, way later than basically every cheese i play.
Part 5 : Rock paper scissor gameplay.
Alright, i’ll admit it, i’ve purposefully omitted an exception to the economy setup rule: 8 pools and 10 pools. There’s a reason for that.
I’m sure most of you will remember the good old days, how much more “strategic variety” there was and how zerg actually had several aggressive openings with lower workers counts. Lemme slash all of your dreams right here, 8/10 pools are a complete meme opening on ptr, essentially no-scout killers. There are two main reason for this: firstly, and i can’t believe i have to say this, ADEPTS DIDN’T EXIST BEFORE LOTV.
This matters immensely, as it means that even in the dream scenario in which my 10 pool does any damage (and believe me this is already a stretch), the lack of money to afford queens and/or speed will immediately get punished by the adept zealot counterpush (similarly to the current zvp 12p on live, which is also considered unplayable at a high level), often resulting in a game end. 8 Pool is even worse on that regard. Moreover the skill of top players has been raised so much it’s hard to properly express the difference, thus those defenses are much easier and much more standardized than they used to be.
Secondly, we have to address the elephant in the room: I have come to realize, over the course of the years, that sc2 is a game that is significantly more enjoyable if you don’t understand it that well. I know that this opinion might seem controversial or elitist, but allow me to explain: The lack of high level knowledge makes a game more exciting, more mysterious.
You don’t know who’s gonna win, or who’s ahead, and that immensely improves the experience; every moment could be the comeback of a lifetime, every play could be the end of the game. There’s a reason why successfull casters often tend to hype up possible future play as opposed to giving a precise rundown on who’s winning and by how much.
You don’t hear “Reynor is dead and is gonna try and cope for the next 5 mins while clem pushes and denies bases”, you hear “Reynor’s finding himself on the backfoot, but maybe this ling runby could take Clem by surprise, and wow what an amazing split on the push by Clem, managing to deny this CRITICAL 5th expansion”. I’m bringing this up to reveal a tragic truth about the nature of PTR: when moving outside the boring macro game experience, the amount of build order wins is staggering.
To an unexperienced outsider, these games might look exciting, but the game is essentially over the moment both players make their decision, before any interaction has happened. I bring it up here because 10 pool often falls into this category: i’ve had a game against harstem trying to proxy gate (autowin for me) and one against a fast scout into fast core (autoloss for me). Neither of those games had much interaction, but i’m sure without this knowledge they looked exciting.
To be clear, this problem is present in some form even on live, especially in mirror matchups (12p v 16p in zvz or proxies in pvp come to mind), but on PTR it’s out of control.
Part 6 : Nostalgia Goggles
Believe me, i would love nothing more than to go back to a time where so many more strategies were viable, where early game aggression was king, the game wasn’t figured out yet, and the games didn’t devolve into a lategame slog immediately. I’m told by afficionados that Wol and Hots were like that. I can’t confirm or deny that, as i’ve never played those expansions. What i can say is that the game changed way too much for those times to come back with simply a worker change.
The units are different, the balance is different, the players are better, the naturals are narrower, and, despite popular belief, once you get out of the rock paper scissor stage of the game on an even foot, the game devolves into EXACTLY the same midgame skip into lategame scenario that is commonly seen in live games. The point of this paragraph is not to shame or make fun of people that are enthusiastic about times that the game was fun for them, it’s to warn against falling for an illusion: if you truly truly want aggressive play back, this is not the way.
I’ll write some suggestions and examples in the closing paragraph. Please don’t destroy zerg cheese and creative playstile, it’s the one thing i enjoy the most about the game, and i’d hate to lose it because of a misunderstanding.
Part 7 : The mirage of diversity
New patches always bring weeks of excited testing and new builds. This is normal. Please don’t let the initial excitement and build order variety fool you. It is but a mirage, a fun interlude in the boredom of a figured out meta. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy: even if the game ends up being even more stale and boring and figured out in 2 months, the first 2 weeks will always always always be full of new things. Don’t let a couple of weeks of testing ruin the game.
I LOVE DIVERSITY, I LOVE ZERG AGGRESSION, I’M A CHEESE MONSTER ON LADDER, i’m the exact thing the pach claims to want to encourage, so please please heed my warning. To kill my playstile while praising it, while claiming to love it, would truly be tragic
.
Part 8 : An alternative path
I’ll be short, there are a lot of different ways to encourage aggressive play, and none of them require a worker change. A lot of the nerfs over the year neutered cheese, and the reason for that is that the community has a very duplicitous relation with it: we love it when we see it, we hate it when it happens to us. Whene cheese is strong enough to be somewhat persistent in pro play, it becomes widespread in the lower league, with all the frustation it causes.
If you truly want strategic variety and aggressive play, here’s some of the options from a zerg perspective(i’ll leave p and t to their respective cheese monsters): revert the ravager morph time nerf, buff spines build time, revert the stalker build time buff, nerf p/t basic antiair(if you want more mutas), nerf p/t basic air to ground defenses, like banshees and oracles(if you want more midgame roach timings), nerf the forge/cannons build time ( if you want more proxy hatches , although this will obviously nerf cannon rush as a result).
Thanks for the attention.
Lorimbo.
TLDR: the worker change kills zerg early/mid game variety due to the lack of larva and the relative speedup of enemy tech v zerg tech, it accomplishes the opposite of what it sets out to do. Please don't be fooled by the freshness of the patch.
Going to lump all these last sections together for brevity, because the same assumptions kept being made that I've already addressed and in part 5 it is made clear "Alright, i’ll admit it, i’ve purposefully omitted an exception to the economy setup rule: 8 pools and 10 pools."
Yes, you've left out what makes Zerg rushes strongest by design - building a Spawning Pool faster. And a fast Pool timing impacts the whole Zerg tech tree. Remember a 12 pool is early when you have 12 workers. It isn't when you have 8 workers...
This thread is going to look really silly once Zergs figure out new cheeses.
The fact is, 8 worker starts make early aggression much easier, and much stronger because it slows the game down. Read this: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/482697-razzia-of-the-blizzsters
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 29 2026 08:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Hello everyone, my name is Lorimbo and i’m a rather infamous zerg cheeser on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play. I’m writing this post as a last desperate attempt to save what i most dearly love about sc2: actual aggression in the early game. This will be most likely a very long and detailed post, so i’ll put a TLDR at the end.
Let’s start with the most important details first: in the past 5 days, i’ve played about 100 games and 30 hours of ptr, mostly focusing on zvp, and in a minor part, on zvt. All of the testing was done against mid GM+ opponents or pro players. My biggest passion in sc2 has been making new build orders and figuring out new metas , i am THE target audience for these changes that are meant to promote strategic diversity, and yet the PTR patch is making me strongly consider straight up quitting sc2 for good.
My hypothesis, which i strongly believe in after extensive testing, is that at least as far as zerg is concerned, early game cheese is essentially dead, and build order variety is gutted even more than in the live patch. So, why do i think that?
This is an appeal to authority. Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter who says or does it. Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 1 : The larvae problem.
Let’s start from a very basic explanation of high level zerg cheese. Essentially cheesing is a three step process: first we set up a basic level of economy, which allows us to constantly produce units, we are then teching up to our desired tech level, such as getting a pool+ speed, a roach warren, a bane nest, or whatever the specific cheese requires.
Lastly there is the execution step, in which we use the units/static defense to actually try and either win the game on the spot or get an economic advantage big enough to later convert into a win.
The 8 workers start fundamentally messes with this process in several ways, rendering it non functional. I’ll explain it as simply as i can: for any serious cheese, our economic output HAS to be 12 workers at the very minimum (and realistically 14+). Easy enough, just make drones at the start, right? Wrong!
On the current live patch, i start with 12 workers and 3 larvae; I can choose to go up to 14 (for example when proxy hatching), bank the remaining larvae, and accumulate 2 more while teching up, thus having exactly 3 larvae for when my pool is done. On ptr, going up to 12 workers leaves me with 0 larvae. In other words, compared to the ptr, i start any cheese down 3 larvae.
There were serious cheeses long before Zerg had 12 workers that worked fine. You need to address the years of SC2 history where this was the case and explain why that isn't the case now, when cheeses worked with 12 and 6 workers. What is unique today? Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 2 : The tech problem
BUT LORIMBO, i hear you say, just as your cheese is delayed, so will be the defenses of the opposing player, since they’re also starting with less workers, thus resulting into more cheese options, greater variety and so on and so forth! Unfortunately this is not only wrong, but the opposite is true.
Let’s go back to our 12 workers cheese example: by the time i get to 12 workers, i have no larvae, and my protoss opponent has 11 workers, 1 extra chrono and a completed pylon. I want you guys to focus on the pylon: it not only functions as a supply expansion, but also, and this is the CRITICAL key to understand the problem, as a tech speedup.
The reason for this is that in starcraft, pylons(and supply depots) are required to build gates/ raxes. This essentially means that on ptr, not only am i slowed down by the lack of larvae, but my opponent starts 18 seconds ahead in their tech trees. This problem doesn’t only affect cheeses: when playing what we tested to be one of the more efficient hatch first openings (14h 16p 17g), we realized that the first adepts hits so much “faster”(relatively to our tech/unit) compared to live.
It has a much greater window of time to punish our lack of speed, and generally prevent the zerg from taking map control. In fact this window is so big, that instead of the usual 2 adepts harrass, you can easily get away with harrassing with 3 adepts for quite a while, since the speed won’t come online until much much later.\
By continuing to explore 12 worker cheese you are leaving out too much. The 6 worker builds didn't work when we started with 12 either, more analysis is needed to claim here they don't work. Feels like you are going back to what you used to do and wondering why it doesn't work while not trying to invent the new meta. Discussing the Adept so much, but not mentioning the Ravager feels wrong. The Ravager is powerful larva efficient unit that makes Zerg a lot more dangerous early. Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 3 : What does it actually look like?
Let’s circle back to the main issue at hand: what the 8 workers start means for aggressive play as zerg. Essentially, there are two ways to look at this: either I try to match the timing of live, or i try to match the unit count. Taking a basic 17g 16p 18h ravager ling flood as an example, we’re supposed to be hitting at 3.40 with 3 ravagers and about 20 speedlings, while having 17 workers ,2 bases and a queen at home.
I tested these builds several times, trying to first match the timing (3.40), then the unit count(the 3 ravs, 20 lings). In the first case, i had to cut out the queen, 2 workers, and about 10 lings, and when i showed up (this game was played against harstem and recorded), he had 4 units and 3 batteries+ a nexus, about twice as much as you can afford on live. So not only did i have to completely gut any potential follow up and make the attack much weaker (no queen means no inject means even less lings in the long run), but my opponents early tech was so much faster that he had more units than me! The second approach was even worse: by matching the unit count, i arrive so unbelievably late that my opponent once again has an extremely comfortable defense, even if taken off guard.
Again, you are trying to work builds that won't work because the game changed. Every race needs to adapt to these changes. If a Protoss player comes in and whines that his favorite 12 worker two base all-in doesn't work anymore... it means nothing except he needs to stop doing it and invent a new build. The builds in HOTS and WOL were, much, much different than we have in LOTV. They were not just quickly adapted to LOTV because the number of workers changed. Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 4 : Scouting and opponents’ skill
This is the inevitable paragraph where i dispel some commonly held misconceptions which might otherwise bias the readers. Let’s start off by clarifying that all calculations made in this thread are purely compared to the same situation in the live game, and that the skill of my opponents has nothing to do with the calculations. In other words, the fact that i was playing against equally good or even better players has no bearing on the efficacy of the cheese.
Over the course of my short career, in the last 3 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to, Hero, Maxpax, Elazer, Byun, Ryung, Percival, Creator and Classic+ most likely your favourite pro player too. That is to say, top pro players CAN and WILL be cheesed on live, they are not immune to cheese whatsoever, and are in fact quite susceptible to it.
The bar to defend any cheese on ptr is MUCH lower than live, and thus the number of possible aggressive early game ideas inevitably approaches 0. Secondly, scouting did not actually get any harder, at least not against zerg.
Once again, while on paper the cost of a worker scouting early with a lower worker count is much greater than on live, in reality this is more than compensated by the tech advantage previously discussed+ the lack of larvae. The thing that actually got slowed down, from our testing, is either the first expansion or the first T2 tech (heavy factory units for terran, stargate for protoss), depending on how the player decides to play (early expansions with late tech seem to be the more optimal way atm).
And before you ask me, no, i tested it, the late stargate is still more than in time to defend a speedling attack on the third, and you don’t need sg units to defend your natural, not on live, and even less on ptr, where you have significantly more time to make units. On a similar note, the warpgate changes mostly do not impact early cheeses: in a standard live game, warpgate finishes by 4.10ish, way later than basically every cheese i play.
Part 5 : Rock paper scissor gameplay.
Alright, i’ll admit it, i’ve purposefully omitted an exception to the economy setup rule: 8 pools and 10 pools. There’s a reason for that.
I’m sure most of you will remember the good old days, how much more “strategic variety” there was and how zerg actually had several aggressive openings with lower workers counts. Lemme slash all of your dreams right here, 8/10 pools are a complete meme opening on ptr, essentially no-scout killers. There are two main reason for this: firstly, and i can’t believe i have to say this, ADEPTS DIDN’T EXIST BEFORE LOTV.
This matters immensely, as it means that even in the dream scenario in which my 10 pool does any damage (and believe me this is already a stretch), the lack of money to afford queens and/or speed will immediately get punished by the adept zealot counterpush (similarly to the current zvp 12p on live, which is also considered unplayable at a high level), often resulting in a game end. 8 Pool is even worse on that regard. Moreover the skill of top players has been raised so much it’s hard to properly express the difference, thus those defenses are much easier and much more standardized than they used to be.
Secondly, we have to address the elephant in the room: I have come to realize, over the course of the years, that sc2 is a game that is significantly more enjoyable if you don’t understand it that well. I know that this opinion might seem controversial or elitist, but allow me to explain: The lack of high level knowledge makes a game more exciting, more mysterious.
You don’t know who’s gonna win, or who’s ahead, and that immensely improves the experience; every moment could be the comeback of a lifetime, every play could be the end of the game. There’s a reason why successfull casters often tend to hype up possible future play as opposed to giving a precise rundown on who’s winning and by how much.
You don’t hear “Reynor is dead and is gonna try and cope for the next 5 mins while clem pushes and denies bases”, you hear “Reynor’s finding himself on the backfoot, but maybe this ling runby could take Clem by surprise, and wow what an amazing split on the push by Clem, managing to deny this CRITICAL 5th expansion”. I’m bringing this up to reveal a tragic truth about the nature of PTR: when moving outside the boring macro game experience, the amount of build order wins is staggering.
To an unexperienced outsider, these games might look exciting, but the game is essentially over the moment both players make their decision, before any interaction has happened. I bring it up here because 10 pool often falls into this category: i’ve had a game against harstem trying to proxy gate (autowin for me) and one against a fast scout into fast core (autoloss for me). Neither of those games had much interaction, but i’m sure without this knowledge they looked exciting.
To be clear, this problem is present in some form even on live, especially in mirror matchups (12p v 16p in zvz or proxies in pvp come to mind), but on PTR it’s out of control.
Part 6 : Nostalgia Goggles
Believe me, i would love nothing more than to go back to a time where so many more strategies were viable, where early game aggression was king, the game wasn’t figured out yet, and the games didn’t devolve into a lategame slog immediately. I’m told by afficionados that Wol and Hots were like that. I can’t confirm or deny that, as i’ve never played those expansions. What i can say is that the game changed way too much for those times to come back with simply a worker change.
The units are different, the balance is different, the players are better, the naturals are narrower, and, despite popular belief, once you get out of the rock paper scissor stage of the game on an even foot, the game devolves into EXACTLY the same midgame skip into lategame scenario that is commonly seen in live games. The point of this paragraph is not to shame or make fun of people that are enthusiastic about times that the game was fun for them, it’s to warn against falling for an illusion: if you truly truly want aggressive play back, this is not the way.
I’ll write some suggestions and examples in the closing paragraph. Please don’t destroy zerg cheese and creative playstile, it’s the one thing i enjoy the most about the game, and i’d hate to lose it because of a misunderstanding.
Part 7 : The mirage of diversity
New patches always bring weeks of excited testing and new builds. This is normal. Please don’t let the initial excitement and build order variety fool you. It is but a mirage, a fun interlude in the boredom of a figured out meta. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy: even if the game ends up being even more stale and boring and figured out in 2 months, the first 2 weeks will always always always be full of new things. Don’t let a couple of weeks of testing ruin the game.
I LOVE DIVERSITY, I LOVE ZERG AGGRESSION, I’M A CHEESE MONSTER ON LADDER, i’m the exact thing the pach claims to want to encourage, so please please heed my warning. To kill my playstile while praising it, while claiming to love it, would truly be tragic
.
Part 8 : An alternative path
I’ll be short, there are a lot of different ways to encourage aggressive play, and none of them require a worker change. A lot of the nerfs over the year neutered cheese, and the reason for that is that the community has a very duplicitous relation with it: we love it when we see it, we hate it when it happens to us. Whene cheese is strong enough to be somewhat persistent in pro play, it becomes widespread in the lower league, with all the frustation it causes.
If you truly want strategic variety and aggressive play, here’s some of the options from a zerg perspective(i’ll leave p and t to their respective cheese monsters): revert the ravager morph time nerf, buff spines build time, revert the stalker build time buff, nerf p/t basic antiair(if you want more mutas), nerf p/t basic air to ground defenses, like banshees and oracles(if you want more midgame roach timings), nerf the forge/cannons build time ( if you want more proxy hatches , although this will obviously nerf cannon rush as a result).
Thanks for the attention.
Lorimbo.
TLDR: the worker change kills zerg early/mid game variety due to the lack of larva and the relative speedup of enemy tech v zerg tech, it accomplishes the opposite of what it sets out to do. Please don't be fooled by the freshness of the patch. Going to lump all these last sections together for brevity, because the same assumptions kept being made that I've already addressed and in part 5 it is made clear "Alright, i’ll admit it, i’ve purposefully omitted an exception to the economy setup rule: 8 pools and 10 pools." Yes, you've left out what makes Zerg rushes strongest by design - building a Spawning Pool faster. And a fast Pool timing impacts the whole Zerg tech tree. Remember a 12 pool is early when you have 12 workers. It isn't when you have 8 workers... This thread is going to look really silly once Zergs figure out new cheeses. The fact is, 8 worker starts make early aggression much easier, and much stronger because it slows the game down. Read this: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/482697-razzia-of-the-blizzsters
"There were serious cheeses long before Zerg had 12 workers that worked fine. You need to address the years of SC2 history where this was the case and explain why that isn't the case now, when cheeses worked with 12 and 6 workers. What is unique today?"
They changed macro mechanics when they changed to 12 workers, as well as resources available in each base. They also introduced new units and changed old units. They also nerfed a lot of aggressive options that did exist.
Bumping this thread is a bit silly since this was a discussion done prior to their acknowledgement that "oh right, macro mechanics changed" and changed the larvae rate. Maybe Lorimbo has an updated opinion, but it's not posted here so you're arguing with a ghost, effectively.
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On June 29 2026 11:16 ZombieGrub wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 29 2026 08:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Hello everyone, my name is Lorimbo and i’m a rather infamous zerg cheeser on the EU ladder. I usually hover between mid and high GM, and several of my builds were consistently used in the highest level of play. I’m writing this post as a last desperate attempt to save what i most dearly love about sc2: actual aggression in the early game. This will be most likely a very long and detailed post, so i’ll put a TLDR at the end.
Let’s start with the most important details first: in the past 5 days, i’ve played about 100 games and 30 hours of ptr, mostly focusing on zvp, and in a minor part, on zvt. All of the testing was done against mid GM+ opponents or pro players. My biggest passion in sc2 has been making new build orders and figuring out new metas , i am THE target audience for these changes that are meant to promote strategic diversity, and yet the PTR patch is making me strongly consider straight up quitting sc2 for good.
My hypothesis, which i strongly believe in after extensive testing, is that at least as far as zerg is concerned, early game cheese is essentially dead, and build order variety is gutted even more than in the live patch. So, why do i think that?
This is an appeal to authority. Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter who says or does it. Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 1 : The larvae problem.
Let’s start from a very basic explanation of high level zerg cheese. Essentially cheesing is a three step process: first we set up a basic level of economy, which allows us to constantly produce units, we are then teching up to our desired tech level, such as getting a pool+ speed, a roach warren, a bane nest, or whatever the specific cheese requires.
Lastly there is the execution step, in which we use the units/static defense to actually try and either win the game on the spot or get an economic advantage big enough to later convert into a win.
The 8 workers start fundamentally messes with this process in several ways, rendering it non functional. I’ll explain it as simply as i can: for any serious cheese, our economic output HAS to be 12 workers at the very minimum (and realistically 14+). Easy enough, just make drones at the start, right? Wrong!
On the current live patch, i start with 12 workers and 3 larvae; I can choose to go up to 14 (for example when proxy hatching), bank the remaining larvae, and accumulate 2 more while teching up, thus having exactly 3 larvae for when my pool is done. On ptr, going up to 12 workers leaves me with 0 larvae. In other words, compared to the ptr, i start any cheese down 3 larvae.
There were serious cheeses long before Zerg had 12 workers that worked fine. You need to address the years of SC2 history where this was the case and explain why that isn't the case now, when cheeses worked with 12 and 6 workers. What is unique today? Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 2 : The tech problem
BUT LORIMBO, i hear you say, just as your cheese is delayed, so will be the defenses of the opposing player, since they’re also starting with less workers, thus resulting into more cheese options, greater variety and so on and so forth! Unfortunately this is not only wrong, but the opposite is true.
Let’s go back to our 12 workers cheese example: by the time i get to 12 workers, i have no larvae, and my protoss opponent has 11 workers, 1 extra chrono and a completed pylon. I want you guys to focus on the pylon: it not only functions as a supply expansion, but also, and this is the CRITICAL key to understand the problem, as a tech speedup.
The reason for this is that in starcraft, pylons(and supply depots) are required to build gates/ raxes. This essentially means that on ptr, not only am i slowed down by the lack of larvae, but my opponent starts 18 seconds ahead in their tech trees. This problem doesn’t only affect cheeses: when playing what we tested to be one of the more efficient hatch first openings (14h 16p 17g), we realized that the first adepts hits so much “faster”(relatively to our tech/unit) compared to live.
It has a much greater window of time to punish our lack of speed, and generally prevent the zerg from taking map control. In fact this window is so big, that instead of the usual 2 adepts harrass, you can easily get away with harrassing with 3 adepts for quite a while, since the speed won’t come online until much much later.\
By continuing to explore 12 worker cheese you are leaving out too much. The 6 worker builds didn't work when we started with 12 either, more analysis is needed to claim here they don't work. Feels like you are going back to what you used to do and wondering why it doesn't work while not trying to invent the new meta. Discussing the Adept so much, but not mentioning the Ravager feels wrong. The Ravager is powerful larva efficient unit that makes Zerg a lot more dangerous early. Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 3 : What does it actually look like?
Let’s circle back to the main issue at hand: what the 8 workers start means for aggressive play as zerg. Essentially, there are two ways to look at this: either I try to match the timing of live, or i try to match the unit count. Taking a basic 17g 16p 18h ravager ling flood as an example, we’re supposed to be hitting at 3.40 with 3 ravagers and about 20 speedlings, while having 17 workers ,2 bases and a queen at home.
I tested these builds several times, trying to first match the timing (3.40), then the unit count(the 3 ravs, 20 lings). In the first case, i had to cut out the queen, 2 workers, and about 10 lings, and when i showed up (this game was played against harstem and recorded), he had 4 units and 3 batteries+ a nexus, about twice as much as you can afford on live. So not only did i have to completely gut any potential follow up and make the attack much weaker (no queen means no inject means even less lings in the long run), but my opponents early tech was so much faster that he had more units than me! The second approach was even worse: by matching the unit count, i arrive so unbelievably late that my opponent once again has an extremely comfortable defense, even if taken off guard.
Again, you are trying to work builds that won't work because the game changed. Every race needs to adapt to these changes. If a Protoss player comes in and whines that his favorite 12 worker two base all-in doesn't work anymore... it means nothing except he needs to stop doing it and invent a new build. The builds in HOTS and WOL were, much, much different than we have in LOTV. They were not just quickly adapted to LOTV because the number of workers changed. Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:43 Lorimbo wrote:
Part 4 : Scouting and opponents’ skill
This is the inevitable paragraph where i dispel some commonly held misconceptions which might otherwise bias the readers. Let’s start off by clarifying that all calculations made in this thread are purely compared to the same situation in the live game, and that the skill of my opponents has nothing to do with the calculations. In other words, the fact that i was playing against equally good or even better players has no bearing on the efficacy of the cheese.
Over the course of my short career, in the last 3 years, i’ve collected wins against most of the top pro players in the world, including, but not limited to, Hero, Maxpax, Elazer, Byun, Ryung, Percival, Creator and Classic+ most likely your favourite pro player too. That is to say, top pro players CAN and WILL be cheesed on live, they are not immune to cheese whatsoever, and are in fact quite susceptible to it.
The bar to defend any cheese on ptr is MUCH lower than live, and thus the number of possible aggressive early game ideas inevitably approaches 0. Secondly, scouting did not actually get any harder, at least not against zerg.
Once again, while on paper the cost of a worker scouting early with a lower worker count is much greater than on live, in reality this is more than compensated by the tech advantage previously discussed+ the lack of larvae. The thing that actually got slowed down, from our testing, is either the first expansion or the first T2 tech (heavy factory units for terran, stargate for protoss), depending on how the player decides to play (early expansions with late tech seem to be the more optimal way atm).
And before you ask me, no, i tested it, the late stargate is still more than in time to defend a speedling attack on the third, and you don’t need sg units to defend your natural, not on live, and even less on ptr, where you have significantly more time to make units. On a similar note, the warpgate changes mostly do not impact early cheeses: in a standard live game, warpgate finishes by 4.10ish, way later than basically every cheese i play.
Part 5 : Rock paper scissor gameplay.
Alright, i’ll admit it, i’ve purposefully omitted an exception to the economy setup rule: 8 pools and 10 pools. There’s a reason for that.
I’m sure most of you will remember the good old days, how much more “strategic variety” there was and how zerg actually had several aggressive openings with lower workers counts. Lemme slash all of your dreams right here, 8/10 pools are a complete meme opening on ptr, essentially no-scout killers. There are two main reason for this: firstly, and i can’t believe i have to say this, ADEPTS DIDN’T EXIST BEFORE LOTV.
This matters immensely, as it means that even in the dream scenario in which my 10 pool does any damage (and believe me this is already a stretch), the lack of money to afford queens and/or speed will immediately get punished by the adept zealot counterpush (similarly to the current zvp 12p on live, which is also considered unplayable at a high level), often resulting in a game end. 8 Pool is even worse on that regard. Moreover the skill of top players has been raised so much it’s hard to properly express the difference, thus those defenses are much easier and much more standardized than they used to be.
Secondly, we have to address the elephant in the room: I have come to realize, over the course of the years, that sc2 is a game that is significantly more enjoyable if you don’t understand it that well. I know that this opinion might seem controversial or elitist, but allow me to explain: The lack of high level knowledge makes a game more exciting, more mysterious.
You don’t know who’s gonna win, or who’s ahead, and that immensely improves the experience; every moment could be the comeback of a lifetime, every play could be the end of the game. There’s a reason why successfull casters often tend to hype up possible future play as opposed to giving a precise rundown on who’s winning and by how much.
You don’t hear “Reynor is dead and is gonna try and cope for the next 5 mins while clem pushes and denies bases”, you hear “Reynor’s finding himself on the backfoot, but maybe this ling runby could take Clem by surprise, and wow what an amazing split on the push by Clem, managing to deny this CRITICAL 5th expansion”. I’m bringing this up to reveal a tragic truth about the nature of PTR: when moving outside the boring macro game experience, the amount of build order wins is staggering.
To an unexperienced outsider, these games might look exciting, but the game is essentially over the moment both players make their decision, before any interaction has happened. I bring it up here because 10 pool often falls into this category: i’ve had a game against harstem trying to proxy gate (autowin for me) and one against a fast scout into fast core (autoloss for me). Neither of those games had much interaction, but i’m sure without this knowledge they looked exciting.
To be clear, this problem is present in some form even on live, especially in mirror matchups (12p v 16p in zvz or proxies in pvp come to mind), but on PTR it’s out of control.
Part 6 : Nostalgia Goggles
Believe me, i would love nothing more than to go back to a time where so many more strategies were viable, where early game aggression was king, the game wasn’t figured out yet, and the games didn’t devolve into a lategame slog immediately. I’m told by afficionados that Wol and Hots were like that. I can’t confirm or deny that, as i’ve never played those expansions. What i can say is that the game changed way too much for those times to come back with simply a worker change.
The units are different, the balance is different, the players are better, the naturals are narrower, and, despite popular belief, once you get out of the rock paper scissor stage of the game on an even foot, the game devolves into EXACTLY the same midgame skip into lategame scenario that is commonly seen in live games. The point of this paragraph is not to shame or make fun of people that are enthusiastic about times that the game was fun for them, it’s to warn against falling for an illusion: if you truly truly want aggressive play back, this is not the way.
I’ll write some suggestions and examples in the closing paragraph. Please don’t destroy zerg cheese and creative playstile, it’s the one thing i enjoy the most about the game, and i’d hate to lose it because of a misunderstanding.
Part 7 : The mirage of diversity
New patches always bring weeks of excited testing and new builds. This is normal. Please don’t let the initial excitement and build order variety fool you. It is but a mirage, a fun interlude in the boredom of a figured out meta. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy: even if the game ends up being even more stale and boring and figured out in 2 months, the first 2 weeks will always always always be full of new things. Don’t let a couple of weeks of testing ruin the game.
I LOVE DIVERSITY, I LOVE ZERG AGGRESSION, I’M A CHEESE MONSTER ON LADDER, i’m the exact thing the pach claims to want to encourage, so please please heed my warning. To kill my playstile while praising it, while claiming to love it, would truly be tragic
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Part 8 : An alternative path
I’ll be short, there are a lot of different ways to encourage aggressive play, and none of them require a worker change. A lot of the nerfs over the year neutered cheese, and the reason for that is that the community has a very duplicitous relation with it: we love it when we see it, we hate it when it happens to us. Whene cheese is strong enough to be somewhat persistent in pro play, it becomes widespread in the lower league, with all the frustation it causes.
If you truly want strategic variety and aggressive play, here’s some of the options from a zerg perspective(i’ll leave p and t to their respective cheese monsters): revert the ravager morph time nerf, buff spines build time, revert the stalker build time buff, nerf p/t basic antiair(if you want more mutas), nerf p/t basic air to ground defenses, like banshees and oracles(if you want more midgame roach timings), nerf the forge/cannons build time ( if you want more proxy hatches , although this will obviously nerf cannon rush as a result).
Thanks for the attention.
Lorimbo.
TLDR: the worker change kills zerg early/mid game variety due to the lack of larva and the relative speedup of enemy tech v zerg tech, it accomplishes the opposite of what it sets out to do. Please don't be fooled by the freshness of the patch. Going to lump all these last sections together for brevity, because the same assumptions kept being made that I've already addressed and in part 5 it is made clear "Alright, i’ll admit it, i’ve purposefully omitted an exception to the economy setup rule: 8 pools and 10 pools." Yes, you've left out what makes Zerg rushes strongest by design - building a Spawning Pool faster. And a fast Pool timing impacts the whole Zerg tech tree. Remember a 12 pool is early when you have 12 workers. It isn't when you have 8 workers... This thread is going to look really silly once Zergs figure out new cheeses. The fact is, 8 worker starts make early aggression much easier, and much stronger because it slows the game down. Read this: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/482697-razzia-of-the-blizzsters "There were serious cheeses long before Zerg had 12 workers that worked fine. You need to address the years of SC2 history where this was the case and explain why that isn't the case now, when cheeses worked with 12 and 6 workers. What is unique today?" They changed macro mechanics when they changed to 12 workers, as well as resources available in each base. They also introduced new units and changed old units. They also nerfed a lot of aggressive options that did exist. Bumping this thread is a bit silly since this was a discussion done prior to their acknowledgement that "oh right, macro mechanics changed" and changed the larvae rate. Maybe Lorimbo has an updated opinion, but it's not posted here so you're arguing with a ghost, effectively.
I don't argue with people, I argue with ideas. The ideas stand independent of Lorimbo and whether he abandoned them is irrelevant.
Otherwise, bumping this thread would be a bit silly since I could have changed my opinion. But anything could happen. So instead of wondering what could be, let's focus on what is. And continue the pursuit of knowledge by analyzing ideas.
The original post is a poorly constructed argument that deserves to be discussed, because even if it is correct and cheese is dead for Zerg, the original post doesn't argue that effectively, which I why I questioned it in an attempt to improve it. You can add to that and change what is, or you can try to continue to extinguish the discussion.
But remember, you aren't arguing with me, these ideas that will exist without me.
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