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France12807 Posts
On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I don't necessarily agree with Rain as low as #21/22, but top 15 instead of #10 could fit perfectly. Given stuchiu previous list that put him at #10 and more recent / LotV names, we could have: (for funsies)
#22 -> Rain
#21 -> NesTea (#7 on stuchiu list)
#20 -> MMA (#6 on stuchiu list)
#19 -> Polt (#5)
#18 -> MC (#4)
#17 -> Taeja (#3)
#16 -> Classic Life (#2) the overrated zerg match-fixer
Imo mvp belongs in top 10, so I wouldn't put him there, but having #7 to #2 from original stuchiu list as #21 to #16 isn't that far fetched
Then:
#15 -> Trap (could be swapped with MC...)
#14 -> herO
#13 -> ByuN (alongside TY and now Oliveira, one of the only players to manage to win a WC with terran in LotV, huge feat imho)
#12 -> Reynor: mostly successful when zerg was very strong, hit and miss performances, not as consistent / good as Serral
#11 -> Stats (would have beaten sOs if he didn't lose those WC finals imo, he was overall stronger during LotV)
#10 -> Dark (could be swapped with soO imo)
This list seems reasonable from #22 to #10, with Rain at #22.
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United States1853 Posts
On February 07 2024 08:10 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 08:06 arcane1129 wrote:On February 07 2024 07:38 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote:
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I'm going to get an ulcer waiting for this series to finish so I can finally go into certain things in more detail. Byun's the GOAT because Blizzard had to nerf his play specifically. I'd say that's about all the detail we need. + Show Spoiler +Did that help with the ulcer? Poopi has been saying this since 2017. That served as an immunization of sorts. 
^^^ See, it only took 13 hours for me to get my weekly dosage.
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I find it hard to justify putting innovation behind either dark or mvp, whichever takes 4 (looking like dark).
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On February 07 2024 07:38 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote:
Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10)
2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship)
3. Dark
4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10)
And to include some possible underdogs:
5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins")
6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon)
7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
1. Serral (23 wins-9 RunnerUps)
2. Maru (13-10)
3. TaeJa (11-2)
4. Rogue (11-1)
5. Reynor (10-10)
6. INnoVation (10-4)
7. MMA (9-4)
8. Mvp (9-2)
9. Polt (8-5)
9. herO (8-5)
13. Zest (7-6)
24. Rain (5-2)
25. sOs (4-6)
26. TY (4-3)
28. soO (3-9)
I'm going to get an ulcer waiting for this series to finish so I can finally go into certain things in more detail.
Can't wait to see your logic for why you placed Mentos' fav player higher than he did
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United States1853 Posts
On February 08 2024 00:03 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 07:38 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote:
Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10)
2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship)
3. Dark
4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10)
And to include some possible underdogs:
5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins")
6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon)
7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
1. Serral (23 wins-9 RunnerUps)
2. Maru (13-10)
3. TaeJa (11-2)
4. Rogue (11-1)
5. Reynor (10-10)
6. INnoVation (10-4)
7. MMA (9-4)
8. Mvp (9-2)
9. Polt (8-5)
9. herO (8-5)
13. Zest (7-6)
24. Rain (5-2)
25. sOs (4-6)
26. TY (4-3)
28. soO (3-9)
I'm going to get an ulcer waiting for this series to finish so I can finally go into certain things in more detail. Can't wait to see your logic for why you placed Mentos' fav player higher than he did
Mentos and I actually collaborated on something that will come out after the GOAT list!
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On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
Yeah, Life 100% matchfixed, he literally confessed to the police and there was a bunch of other corroborating evidence, like texts and stuff. IIRC it got found out because the police were investigating an illegal gambling ring (almost all gambling is illegal in Korea, except horse racing for some reason?) and they happened to stumble upon evidence that some gamblers were rigging SC2 matches so that they could make money off of betting on the games.
Life was taking money from some of these guys to intentionally lose games. There was one particularly notorious example in Proleague in 2015, where Life was playing a ZvZ on the 3player map Merry Go Round. I want to say it was vs Solar. There are two different options for where Life's opponent could have spawned. Life sends out his first overlord and happens to send it to the correct base. The overlord sees the very edge of the creep from Solar's main base, and then it turns away to go scout the other, empty spawn position. I literally don't think most gold leaguers would make that mistake. A whole minute later, Life pretends to have only now noticed that his overlord saw the creep of Solar's main.
I am sure that Life was intending to send the overlord just short of where it could see the creep or not, and then turn it away. That way he could give himself a plausible disadvantage in the game. Instead he screwed it up, and failed to roll with his screwup, thereby creating the most suspicious game EVER.
I can't find the VOD of this game. I think Kespa had it deleted. But I distinctly remember watching this game in 2015 and I remember everyone, from TL posters to casters, being absolutely astonished at what we were seeing. I remember thinking that the casters had to be wondering about matchfixing as they were watching that game.
Official statement from Korean prosecutors on matchfixing: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/507933-life-and-bbyong-charged-with-match-fixing
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Accused lol. It was pretty clear cut
What next? SaviOr was "accused"? Crocus was just watching sports games and handing money to sparkyz players as a charitable allowance?
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On February 07 2024 21:42 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
Well, thanks for spoiling that Inca isn't #4.
Also I'm glad to hear it sounds like you had Stats/Classic for example in contention for #10 and aren't far behind Rain, i feel all the protoss are pretty close to each other.
On February 07 2024 21:50 Poopi wrote:
This list seems reasonable from #22 to #10, with Rain at #22.
Fully agree that a player like Rain could be around #20. There are a LOT of great players. Though I wouldn't put players like Reynor and Trap that much higher (if at all) than players like Nestea and especially Taeja. I know the lists have different writers but it's kinda crazy how Taeja went from being a top GOAT contender to being seemingly forgotten or delgated to #15-20 on most people's lists, mainly cus he hasn't won a Starleague.
And Nestea and MC used to be above Zest but are now nowhere in most people's top 12s. (Yeah I know Zest won a couple more tournies and got a couple more 2nds at WCs, so it makes sense that he's higher now, and Nestea especially was from an older era, but I still think he's around #15-20 and MC a little higher.)
Even if early WoL years are weird, Nestea overcame that weirdness to be stupidly consistent and dominant for 1-1.5 years, winning 3 GSLs, his reign was only ended by MVP who is of a very similar calibre + Show Spoiler +and Terran was overtuned and more fully designed than Protoss/Zerg and maps favored Terran back then
I just think it's weird that these days people place MVP so far apart from Nestea, when Nestea MC MVP were quite comparable (#7 #4 #1 on stuchiu's list), and were close to each other on lists back then. It makes me feel like people have just forgotten or just weigh early WoL way less (but not for MVP and MC?). Yes Nestea's peak came earlier, before MVP and MC's, so you could say it was in an earlier and weirder part of WoL, but idk if a few months makes that much difference now that we're at the 14 year mark.
I'm not super familiar with BW, but from what I know, it kinda just reminds me of how despite Jaedong being so good he was close to bonjwa, he was eclipsed slightly by Flash and so people just remember Flash and in their mind that puts a bigger gap between him and Jaedong than there actually should be. People just think "MVP" as the best out of "MVP MC Nestea", so they underrate the other 2 cus it feels like they've represented all 3 from that era with just MVP.
Anyways, big respect if Dark is #4. It's the option that would make the most sense to me. He has continued a few years past Inno's retirement too, and is still a top player. MVP I would put above Rain but it makes enough sense if you're just weighing WoL less altogether (no Kespa yet too). I feel more confident in this now that Miz hints that #9-13 has some more HotS/LotV protoss players - there's NO way Dark would below Stats or Classic. Dark is just a better Stats and better soo. Meanwhile it's very easily justifiable that MVP is below them because he's from such an outdated (and short) era.
It would be crazy if MVP is #4 while MC and Nestea (and players like Taeja too) are 10+ spots below him.
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United States1853 Posts
On February 08 2024 04:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around. Well, thanks for spoiling that Inca isn't #4. Also I'm glad to hear it sounds like you had Stats/Classic for example in contention for #10 and aren't far behind Rain, i feel all the protoss are pretty close to each other. Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:50 Poopi wrote:
This list seems reasonable from #22 to #10, with Rain at #22. Fully agree that a player like Rain could be around #20. There are a LOT of great players. Though I wouldn't put players like Reynor and Trap that much higher (if at all) than players like Nestea and especially Taeja. I know the lists have different writers but it's kinda crazy how Taeja went from being a top GOAT contender to being seemingly forgotten or delgated to #15-20 on most people's lists, mainly cus he hasn't won a Starleague. And Nestea and MC used to be above Zest but are now nowhere in most people's top 12s. (Yeah I know Zest won a couple more tournies and got a couple more 2nds at WCs, so it makes sense that he's higher now, and Nestea especially was from an older era, but I still think he's around #15-20 and MC a little higher.) Even if early WoL years are weird, Nestea overcame that weirdness to be stupidly consistent and dominant for 1-1.5 years, winning 3 GSLs, his reign was only ended by MVP who is of a very similar calibre + Show Spoiler +and Terran was overtuned and more fully designed than Protoss/Zerg and maps favored Terran back then so it's not like those are bad losses). The only thing keeping Nestea's career from being closer to MVP's or MC's despite the similar level of dominance and skill level, is that Nestea simply didn't try to travel or play in any foreign tournaments (until towards the very end of his career, where his skill was already falling), so he didn't rack up as many results as MVP. So, if we're not punishing Serral that much for not trying a Starleague, we shouldn't punish Nestea that much for not trying non-KR tournaments, especially when GSL was the highest level of competition at the time (and top foreigners were competing in GSL). I just think it's weird that these days people place MVP so far apart from Nestea, when Nestea MC MVP were quite comparable (#7 #4 #1 on stuchiu's list), and were close to each other on lists back then. It makes me feel like people have just forgotten or just weigh early WoL way less (but not for MVP and MC?). Yes Nestea's peak came earlier, before MVP and MC's, so you could say it was in an earlier and weirder part of WoL, but idk if a few months makes that much difference now that we're at the 14 year mark. I'm not super familiar with BW, but from what I know, it kinda just reminds me of how despite Jaedong being so good he was close to bonjwa, he was eclipsed slightly by Flash and so people just remember Flash and in their mind that puts a bigger gap between him and Jaedong than there actually should be. People just think "MVP" as the best out of "MVP MC Nestea", so they underrate the other 2 cus it feels like they've represented all 3 from that era with just MVP. Anyways, big respect if Dark is #4. It's the option that would make the most sense to me. He has continued a few years past Inno's retirement too, and is still a top player. MVP I would put above Rain but it makes enough sense if you're just weighing WoL less altogether (no Kespa yet too). I feel more confident in this now that Miz hints that #9-13 has some more HotS/LotV protoss players - there's NO way Dark would below Stats or Classic. Dark is just a better Stats and better soo. Meanwhile it's very easily justifiable that MVP is below them because he's from such an outdated (and short) era. It would be crazy if MVP is #4 while MC and Nestea (and players like Taeja too) are 10+ spots below him.
You act as if it's a mark of shame to be the 15th best player of all time.
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So I think it's pretty obvious how the rest of the rankings will go but I'll shoot:
1. Serral
2. Reynor
3. Clem
4. MaxPax
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On February 08 2024 05:35 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 04:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 07 2024 21:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around. Well, thanks for spoiling that Inca isn't #4. Also I'm glad to hear it sounds like you had Stats/Classic for example in contention for #10 and aren't far behind Rain, i feel all the protoss are pretty close to each other. On February 07 2024 21:50 Poopi wrote:
This list seems reasonable from #22 to #10, with Rain at #22. Fully agree that a player like Rain could be around #20. There are a LOT of great players. Though I wouldn't put players like Reynor and Trap that much higher (if at all) than players like Nestea and especially Taeja. I know the lists have different writers but it's kinda crazy how Taeja went from being a top GOAT contender to being seemingly forgotten or delgated to #15-20 on most people's lists, mainly cus he hasn't won a Starleague. And Nestea and MC used to be above Zest but are now nowhere in most people's top 12s. (Yeah I know Zest won a couple more tournies and got a couple more 2nds at WCs, so it makes sense that he's higher now, and Nestea especially was from an older era, but I still think he's around #15-20 and MC a little higher.) Even if early WoL years are weird, Nestea overcame that weirdness to be stupidly consistent and dominant for 1-1.5 years, winning 3 GSLs, his reign was only ended by MVP who is of a very similar calibre + Show Spoiler +and Terran was overtuned and more fully designed than Protoss/Zerg and maps favored Terran back then so it's not like those are bad losses). The only thing keeping Nestea's career from being closer to MVP's or MC's despite the similar level of dominance and skill level, is that Nestea simply didn't try to travel or play in any foreign tournaments (until towards the very end of his career, where his skill was already falling), so he didn't rack up as many results as MVP. So, if we're not punishing Serral that much for not trying a Starleague, we shouldn't punish Nestea that much for not trying non-KR tournaments, especially when GSL was the highest level of competition at the time (and top foreigners were competing in GSL). I just think it's weird that these days people place MVP so far apart from Nestea, when Nestea MC MVP were quite comparable (#7 #4 #1 on stuchiu's list), and were close to each other on lists back then. It makes me feel like people have just forgotten or just weigh early WoL way less (but not for MVP and MC?). Yes Nestea's peak came earlier, before MVP and MC's, so you could say it was in an earlier and weirder part of WoL, but idk if a few months makes that much difference now that we're at the 14 year mark. I'm not super familiar with BW, but from what I know, it kinda just reminds me of how despite Jaedong being so good he was close to bonjwa, he was eclipsed slightly by Flash and so people just remember Flash and in their mind that puts a bigger gap between him and Jaedong than there actually should be. People just think "MVP" as the best out of "MVP MC Nestea", so they underrate the other 2 cus it feels like they've represented all 3 from that era with just MVP. Anyways, big respect if Dark is #4. It's the option that would make the most sense to me. He has continued a few years past Inno's retirement too, and is still a top player. MVP I would put above Rain but it makes enough sense if you're just weighing WoL less altogether (no Kespa yet too). I feel more confident in this now that Miz hints that #9-13 has some more HotS/LotV protoss players - there's NO way Dark would below Stats or Classic. Dark is just a better Stats and better soo. Meanwhile it's very easily justifiable that MVP is below them because he's from such an outdated (and short) era. It would be crazy if MVP is #4 while MC and Nestea (and players like Taeja too) are 10+ spots below him. You act as if it's a mark of shame to be the 15th best player of all time.
I don't think I said anything about that. It's more about the order and placement of players. If #15 is a great thing to be proud of, then it's only fair that someone who gets #10 deserves it much more, and #5 deserves it much much more. In this case, 1 of MVP and Dark (presumedly) being #4 and the other being ~#14, or in the tangent I had about MVP vs Taeja and Nestea/MC, #4 and ~#15-20 (if MVP is #4).
I just don't think there are that many more players to justify there being such a big gap between MVP and those players on people's lists, when back in the day people commonly put MVP and Taeja close to each other (this was before Innovation won a few more Premieres). It's definitely a result of people weighing those earlier times less, but strangely MVP isn't hit with it as much as players like Taeja/MC/Nestea, despite a player like Taeja being more recent (MVP was like 2011-2013, Taeja was 2012-2014, it's only 1 year different but Taeja was cleanly out of the weird early WoL era).
My guess is just that people see MVP with nostalgia, like I said earlier with picking MVP solely out of the other players from that time, and not feeling the need to rank the others highly because MVP represents the whole era in their mind.
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Yeah, I always seem to agree with Yoshi Kirishima.
It would somehow make more sense to have TaeJa>MVP, because he's slightly more modern and had great success in HotS. If MVP is #4 it would be as out of place as Rain at #10, it would feel decorative, he's here to symbolize the early era or something like this.
On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
Serral, Maru, Rogue, Zest, Stats, Dark, Reynor, Solar, TaeJa, MVP, MC, PartinG, Classic?, herO, Polt, MMA, InNoVation, SoO, Trap, Life, sOs, ByuN.
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Bisutopia19231 Posts
If Reynor wins IEM this year does he get a top 10 spot? Exactly how far away is he from getting to that point?
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United States1853 Posts
On February 08 2024 07:22 BisuDagger wrote:
If Reynor wins IEM this year does he get a top 10 spot? Exactly how far away is he from getting to that point?
To answer your question directly. Of the players I have ranked 11-15, Reynor has the most upward mobility of the group.
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United States1853 Posts
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United States33368 Posts
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
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On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
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On February 08 2024 07:58 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him. Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
Can't blame the guy for having to play against the GOAT American himself, Polt.
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On February 08 2024 07:58 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him. Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
And MVP couldn't even qualify for Code S all the time.
On February 08 2024 08:28 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 07:58 Durnuu wrote:On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him. Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias Can't blame the guy for having to play against the GOAT American himself, Polt.
LOL
I really do miss the holy trinity of TvT though, MVP (mech) MMA (bio tank) Polt (pure bio). I forgot who was beating who though. Fuck interference matrix, and fuck high dps turrets that only last 8 secs with cast range of 1. Give mech back its spellcaster (not counting ghost cus even though it's useful for mech, it's more of the bio spellcaster), and simply rework seeker missile and PDD to not scale when massed (make it so each PDD can only shoot down 2 projectiles per second or something, instead of 20 at once, so that you can't just put PDDs down 1 by 1 and hop all over the map, you'd have to committ to throwing them all down at once if you want to block 100% of damage, which gives counterplay cus the opponent can just make you burn them then fight elsewhere, with the Raven being 150 gas you could make PDD cost 125 energy too to make it even less massable).
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(Edit: Accidental double post)
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EPT
