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On February 07 2024 09:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Also, I know people hype up that "miracle" comeback MVP pulled off vs Inno when it was like, 20 SCVs vs 50 SCVs or something after Inno's hellbat drops, but as a Terran player I knew it wasn't over yet and the casters were too quick to dismiss the game as over.
It was 30 to 9, and INnoVation was up 40 supply. Mvp was the only person who could have survived, and he did it by playing literally 100% perfectly. I cannot possibly stress enough how perfect his decision making was in that game.
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Northern Ireland25561 Posts
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 
1) I really cannot comprehend anyone not agreeing with this.
2) Indeedy, and in a way the eSF times didn’t quite. There were lots of different names winning things in the latter, but to me that was as much down to a still-volatile game, and the scene taking a while to settle too. Mvp was clearly the dog’s bollocks and a cut above, even if he didn’t just win everything, even before guys like DRG and MMA emerged who were of a similar class. Whereas by the peak Kespa era you had 6/7 Mvps, real S class players, and a ton of A tier players who could take out anyone. If that makes sense.
3) Nope, not having it :p
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France12889 Posts
After a decent night of sleep, I actually can't fathom why INno is only #5. Personally, I would have him ahead of Mvp and/or Dark 100%, and probably ahead of at least one of Serral/Rogue. I would put him top 3 and mayybe 2nd, but I can see how someone would put him behind Serral / Rogue if not taking too much into account: balance, and succeeding after kespa era / competitive peak (both huge weaknesses of Serral/Rogue resumes) -> then #4.
#5 seems incredibly low for a player that was able to best Serral in WESG far after his prime. If INno was a bit younger I can't even imagine how dominant he would have been. In his prime years, he indeed that aura of pure dominance through "boring" doing the same stuff perfectly in your face over and over
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On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) Yes I agree, but I think that applies only to a select few players and is the reason the tournament winners are always the same. I don't think however someone like Crrator (who reached the GSL finals in 2022) is more skilled than Zest in 2016. So the level of the average player one has to beat to win a tournament is lower than in 2013-2016, but the level of the very best players they have to beat is higher.
Even someone like Dark imo has declined mechanically compared to 5 years ago, and it's why he nowadays mostly relies on trickery to keep up with Serral/Clem/Mari
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On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1)
I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true.
Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics.
I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
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Northern Ireland25561 Posts
On February 07 2024 18:19 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around? Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now.
Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like.
Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run.
I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle.
The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
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On February 07 2024 18:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:19 Malinor wrote:On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around? Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing. The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now. Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like. Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run. I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle. The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
Generally you're right, but I don't think the knowledge builds over time factor applies to sc2 that much because the game has drastically changed over the years and much of the knowledge built in the last few years would be completely worthless in HotS for example. So even in terms of 'pure' skill level making a comparison is hard, the only thing that can be really compared is mechanics. And in that case I think Serral, Clem and Reynor are probably faster than players in 2015 (going by the eye-test) but as I already said the average player like Creator or Ragnarok is not imo.
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On February 07 2024 18:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:19 Malinor wrote:On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around? Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing. The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now. Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like. Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run. I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle. The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
I get the less stacked pool nowadays... But isnt also the declining prize pool a sort of context grinder in itself? Had any of the old juggernauts - with the exception of Rain, maybe - been as succesful as Serral has been since 2018, they surely would have continued. The ones that have left the game were the A tier mostly, no the S tier. So, i think that those that left would not have changed the tourney champions significantly. One Sniper case here there would have happened. But if you look at the sheer volume of premier tourneys Maru and Serral have won, and objectively look at their skill - compared even to lesser S tier that have continued - you just cant expect they would have dropped that many tourneys to matter to a GOAT list, i think. Pure speculation of course, but its how I honestly feel.
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On February 07 2024 19:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:56 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 18:19 Malinor wrote:On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around? Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing. The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now. Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like. Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run. I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle. The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me. Generally you're right, but I don't think the knowledge builds over time factor applies to sc2 that much because the game has drastically changed over the years and much of the knowledge built in the last few years would be completely worthless in HotS for example. So even in terms of 'pure' skill level making a comparison is hard, the only thing that can be really compared is mechanics. And in that case I think Serral, Clem and Reynor are probably faster than players in 2015 (going by the eye-test) but as I already said the average player like Creator or Ragnarok might not even be.
While balance changes are a big deal, and obviously LotV flipped the whole economy and macro stuff for early game on its head, I think you underestimate how good players like Serral and Maru have gotten at "reading" a game. They have figured out the exact time to send in the scout to figure out if it's build A or build B. They know based on the presence and timing of the opponent's scout whether it's build C or build D. They've also had far more people in between figuring out exactly how to defend most cheeses, and also how to be successful at cheese even if your opponent knows how to defend it. A time travelling Serral, given a few days to adjust to HotS, would absolutely crush Life, because earlygame ZvZ has just been figured out. He'd transition into roach wars with more drones, more map control and better upgrades. Sure, no doubt some weeks after that, the Kespa players would pick up on all his tricks. I don't think Serral is so inherently good that he does anything Kespa players were incapable of. But he has the benefit of standing on the shoulders of giants. And those giants have made the "skill ceiling" far higher than it was in 2014-16 (which in turn was already far higher than it was in 2011).
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Northern Ireland25561 Posts
On February 07 2024 19:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:56 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 18:19 Malinor wrote:On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around? Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing. The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now. Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like. Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run. I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle. The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me. Generally you're right, but I don't think the knowledge builds over time factor applies to sc2 that much because the game has drastically changed over the years and much of the knowledge built in the last few years would be completely worthless in HotS for example. So even in terms of 'pure' skill level making a comparison is hard, the only thing that can be really compared is mechanics. And in that case I think Serral, Clem and Reynor are probably faster than players in 2015 (going by the eye-test) but as I already said the average player like Creator or Ragnarok might not even be.
I mean yeah but knowledge feeds into mechanics even if it’s small optimisations.
Not saying it’s a giant thing but Serral mouse scrolls, which basically keeps his cursor centred at huge times, rather than screen scrolling and having to bounce from the edge of the screen back to the centre.
Small thing sure, but it’s generally more efficient. There are certain times where screen scrolling is more beneficial and he employs it there.
It’s an illustrative example and not the source of Serral’s power of course, but Kespa players screen scrolled because hey it’s long been the way, and it’s good enough. But Serral’s method is just that little bit more efficient, and though marginal is a considered optimisation
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On February 07 2024 19:18 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 19:09 Charoisaur wrote:On February 07 2024 18:56 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 18:19 Malinor wrote:On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around? Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing. The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now. Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like. Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run. I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle. The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me. Generally you're right, but I don't think the knowledge builds over time factor applies to sc2 that much because the game has drastically changed over the years and much of the knowledge built in the last few years would be completely worthless in HotS for example. So even in terms of 'pure' skill level making a comparison is hard, the only thing that can be really compared is mechanics. And in that case I think Serral, Clem and Reynor are probably faster than players in 2015 (going by the eye-test) but as I already said the average player like Creator or Ragnarok might not even be. While balance changes are a big deal, and obviously LotV flipped the whole economy and macro stuff for early game on its head, I think you underestimate how good players like Serral and Maru have gotten at "reading" a game. They have figured out the exact time to send in the scout to figure out if it's build A or build B. They know based on the presence and timing of the opponent's scout whether it's build C or build D. They've also had far more people in between figuring out exactly how to defend most cheeses, and also how to be successful at cheese even if your opponent knows how to defend it. A time travelling Serral, given a few days to adjust to HotS, would absolutely crush Life, because earlygame ZvZ has just been figured out. He'd transition into roach wars with more drones, more map control and better upgrades. Sure, no doubt some weeks after that, the Kespa players would pick up on all his tricks. I don't think Serral is so inherently good that he does anything Kespa players were incapable of. But he has the benefit of standing on the shoulders of giants. And those giants have made the "skill ceiling" far higher than it was in 2014-16 (which in turn was already far higher than it was in 2011).
Wasn't ZvZ early game completely different with the 6 worker start? All respects to Serral but I don't think he would be capable of adjusting all his builds and responses to a completely new economy in a couple days and perfect it enough to beat Life
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Northern Ireland25561 Posts
On February 07 2024 19:15 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:56 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 18:19 Malinor wrote:On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote:Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels. 1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023. 2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other. 3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around? Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing. The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now. Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like. Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run. I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle. The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me. I get the less stacked pool nowadays... But isnt also the declining prize pool a sort of context grinder in itself? Had any of the old juggernauts - with the exception of Rain, maybe - been as succesful as Serral has been since 2018, they surely would have continued. The ones that have left the game were the A tier mostly, no the S tier. So, i think that those that left would not have changed the tourney champions significantly. One Sniper case here there would have happened. But if you look at the sheer volume of premier tourneys Maru and Serral have won, and objectively look at their skill - compared even to lesser S tier that have continued - you just cant expect they would have dropped that many tourneys to matter to a GOAT list, i think. Pure speculation of course, but its how I honestly feel.
I think this is a fair point. In a declining scene with fewer and fewer top dogs, it would seem an ideal environment to make hay while the sun shines, I’ve pondered it myself.
I think it stems from a lack of new blood, that can really step up. The S class players that remain are just burned out at this point, their latent skill level is sufficient that they’re still winning things of course. And the tier down just aren’t good enough that even pushing 100% they can’t bridge the gap.
A Rag, or a Bunny are still absolutely excellent players, but they just can’t make that step up to topple a Maru or a Dark that aren’t at their absolute peak.
So you’re kind of left with a smattering of S class players who have earned 100k-millions of dollars already and maybe aren’t as hungry as in their youth, but their latent skill is still too much for others to bridge
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On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article Show nested quote + From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
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On February 07 2024 17:34 Charoisaur wrote:
Even someone like Dark imo has declined mechanically compared to 5 years ago, and it's why he nowadays mostly relies on trickery to keep up with Serral/Clem/Mari
No need to say imo, he admits as much himself in the interview tasteless did with him recently, the one celebrating Dark joining Talon. He tells fans to cheer for him and watch his games, but to watch some of his older games first, since he's more proud of them haha
I see that Mizen's quieter in the discussions, taking bets on whether he's abstaining from participating for fear of the ulcer or whether he's incapacitated from already having an ulcer 
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On February 07 2024 21:14 yubo56 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 17:34 Charoisaur wrote:
Even someone like Dark imo has declined mechanically compared to 5 years ago, and it's why he nowadays mostly relies on trickery to keep up with Serral/Clem/Mari No need to say imo, he admits as much himself in the interview tasteless did with him recently, the one celebrating Dark joining Talon. He tells fans to cheer for him and watch his games, but to watch some of his older games first, since he's more proud of them haha I see that Mizen's quieter in the discussions, taking bets on whether he's abstaining from participating for fear of the ulcer or whether he's incapacitated from already having an ulcer
My bet is Mizen will never finish the list. Just leave it standing like it is now and keep us bashing each others heads in for the last 4 spots lol
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United States1882 Posts
On February 07 2024 21:14 yubo56 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 17:34 Charoisaur wrote:
Even someone like Dark imo has declined mechanically compared to 5 years ago, and it's why he nowadays mostly relies on trickery to keep up with Serral/Clem/Mari No need to say imo, he admits as much himself in the interview tasteless did with him recently, the one celebrating Dark joining Talon. He tells fans to cheer for him and watch his games, but to watch some of his older games first, since he's more proud of them haha I see that Mizen's quieter in the discussions, taking bets on whether he's abstaining from participating for fear of the ulcer or whether he's incapacitated from already having an ulcer
When I figure out how to sleep and write at the same time, you'll be the first to know.
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Northern Ireland25561 Posts
On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
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United States1882 Posts
On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
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On February 07 2024 21:42 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
Confirmed that there are no Protoss in the top 4! Imba imba imba!
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United States1882 Posts
On February 07 2024 21:45 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 07 2024 21:30 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:13 ejozl wrote:On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else. And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list. He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here. Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around. Confirmed that there are no Protoss in the top 4! Imba imba imba!
It's a bummer that it never worked out for VINES. Sadly he wasn't able to secure a top four spot.
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EPT
