• Top two GOAT candidate during first half of SC2 history (alongside Mvp) • One of the highest Proleague win-rates & two-time Proleague champion • Three Code S championships + six other Liquidedia-premier titles
Notable tournament finishes
2013 Code S Season 2: 2nd place
2013 WCS Season 1 Finals: 1st place
2013 DreamHack Bucharest: 2nd place
2014 Code S Season 3: 1st place
2015 IEM Gamescom: 1st place
2015 Code S Season 3: 1st place
2016 IEM Gyeonggi: 1st place
2017 SSL Premier Season 1: 1st place
2017 GSL vs. The World: 1st place
2017 Code S Season 3: 1st place
2018 HomeStory Cup 17: 1st place
2018 HomeStory Cup 18: 2nd place
2018 WESG Main Event: 1st place
2019 Gold Series Championship Season 1: 1st place
2020 TeamLiquid Starleague 5: 2nd place
If one were to make this list about the most feared players in history, one of the first players to come to mind would be INnoVation. The Terran Machine was widely called the best player in the world at several points throughout his career, winning four Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSL) titles, a WESG championship, and numerous other trophies.
On top of his individual achievements, INnoVation was one of the defining players of the Proleague era. He led STX Soul to the first all-SC2 championship during the 2012/13 season, and repeated the feat with SK Telecom T1 in 2015.
Ironically, INnoVation wasn't much of a strategic innovator compared to the other players on this list, but that's because he never needed to be one. He terrorized the StarCraft II scene with his unmatched macro and endless parade pushes, brute-forcing even the best players into the dirt.
In 2013, few would have expected INnoVation to have the best SC2 career out of these three players.
Career Overview: The Best Player of All Time… …When He Felt Like It
Like #10 player Rain, INnoVation began his StarCraft II career at the forefront of the KeSPA's invasion. Alongside Rain and Soulkey, he was one of the quickest Association players to adapt to SC2 after the official switch out of Brood War in May of 2012. He reached the upper echelons of the scene within his first three seasons in the GSL, achieving a top four result in Season 5 of 2012.
After Heart of the Swarm was released in March of 2013, INnoVation rapidly became considered one of the strongest players in the new expansion. The inaugural Code S season in HotS saw INnoVation go on the warpath, taking out Rain, Life, Flash, RorO, and Symbol on his way to his first major tournament finals (in particular, INnoVation winning the RO16 group of death with Life, Flash, and PartinG made a huge impact at the time). Even though he drew a difficult finals opponent in Soulkey, his coronation as the first king of HotS still seemed assured with nearly 90% of TL.net readers picking him to win in the pre-match poll. However, the finals ended up being a monumental moment for a disastrous reason, as INnoVation blew a 3-0 lead and gave up the first and only reverse-sweep in the Code S history.
Despite suffering such a devastating loss, INnoVation wasn't fazed at all. A mere week later in June's WCS Season 1 Finals—a high-prize tournament featuring the top finishers from the WCS Korea, Europe, and America regions—he took his due prize in convincing fashion. Starting with wins over Revival and RorO in the group stage, INnoVation proceeded to take out aLive (3-0), Mvp (3-2), and finally sOs in a crushing 4-0 sweep to lift the championship trophy.
[Note: The trio of WCS Season Finals tournaments in 2013 are quite tricky to rate. On the one hand, it was a weaker competition than Code S as it had only sixteen players and drew from the weaker WCS Europe and America regions as well. However, Blizzard allotted these tournaments significantly more top-end prize money and WCS points than Code S, and clearly intended for them to be the biggest events aside from BlizzCon.]
Having won his first major individual title and standing atop the SC2 world for the first time, INnoVation was quick to use his powers for his team's benefit as well. Playing as STX Soul's ace in the summer's 2012/13 Proleague playoffs, he lived up to his world-best billing by posting a 6-1 record—including two crucial ace match wins against SK Telecom T1. The rest of the STX Soul roster chipped in with clutch performances as well, and together they claimed the first Proleague title in StarCraft II.
Shortly after winning Proleague with STX Soul, INnoVation made the surprising decision to leave STX and join European squad Team Acer. And, with this move out of KeSPA, he kicked off what would become a series of familiar boom-bust cycles that defined the rest of his career.
The remainder of 2013 saw INnoVation fall off from his dominating peak, which resulted in a shocking 2-3 loss to Duckdeok in the RO16 of BlizzCon 2013. Things only got worse when 2014 came around, as he failed to qualify at all for the first Season of Code S, losing to ascendent KeSPA Protosses herO and Zest in Code A. Now, that wasn't a sign that INnoVation had actually fallen to Code A level—he was still placing high at international 'weekender' style events like DreamHack Opens, and his peak play could be reminiscent of his 2013 prime. However, he simply wasn't contending for the biggest trophies anymore, and that point was made clear again in GSL Season 2 where he made it back to Code S but was eliminated in the RO16.
INnoVation trying his best not to have fun at HomeStory Cup.
Then, out of nowhere, INnoVation decided he wanted to be the best in the world again. Well, at least that's how he made it seem in Code S Season 3. After finishing RO16-Not Qualified-RO16 in his last three seasons of Code S, INnoVation jumped straight into the championship picture. After squeezing through his RO32 group in second place (the infamous MyuNgSik gave him a scare), INnoVation announced a surprise move back to KeSPA fold by leaving Acer and signing with SK Telecom T1. He proceeded to win out for the rest of the tournament, with wins over Stats and PartinG in the RO16, wins over DongRaeGu (3-0) and Cure (4-3) in the playoffs, and finally a 4-2 victory over soO to claim his second major title and first in Code S.
At the time, this seemed like a clear-cut demonstration of the advantage of KeSPA teams against their foreign counterparts. Even the official statement from Acer explicitly stated that INnoVation wanted to play in less international tournaments and rejoin the regimented KeSPA teamhouse environment for the sake of getting better domestic results. While there must have been some truth to this, INnoVation's subsequent up-down cycles on both T1 and various other teams suggest it was simply in his nature to be mercurial.
In any case, INnoVation's win in 2014 Code S Season 3 restored the public faith in his abilities, and he ranked only second to Zest in TL.net's winner-prediction poll ahead of the 2014 WCS Global Finals at BlizzCon. Alas, for the second straight year he failed to challenge for the championship, although this time due to a much more understandable loss to TaeJa in the RO8 (he may also have been affected by a controversial and extremely long tech-delay). Following the pattern from the previous year, INnoVation's stretch of relatively middling results continued into 2015. He managed to finish top eight in the first Code S Season of 2015 and in the IEM World Championship, but once again fell back to being a Code S RO16 player by Season 2 of that year. In the case of the newly created SSL, he failed to qualify at all in both Seasons 1 and 2.
But, just as in previous year, INnoVation abruptly flipped the switch midway through 2015. After hinting at a revival with a championship run at IEM Gamescom, INnoVation went all out in Code S Season 3. After blazing through both group stages in first place, INnoVation continued his rampage in the playoffs with wins over Zest (3-1) and Maru (4-1). The grand finals match placed INnoVation against ByuL, with the CJ Entus Zerg having previously defeated INnoVation 3-2 in the SSL Season 3 playoffs. However, INnoVation got his revenge in the rematch, beating ByuL 4-2 to clinch Code S title number two. As the cherry on top, he helped SKT win the 2015 Proleague championship days later, successfully concluding his first full year with T1.
The inevitable slump cycle came for INnoVation in the 2015 WCS Global Finals, where he once again dropped out in the RO8, losing to eventual champion Life. As in both 2014 and 2015, INnoVation's decline continued into 2016.
However, if INnoVation had previously kept getting respectable results and showed flashes of his championship quality during these down periods, this time he hit rock bottom and splattered all over the floor. He failed to qualify for all three seasons of Code S, while only qualifying for the first of three SSL competitions—there was no summer rebound as in past years. And, while INnoVation somehow managed to be quite solid in Proleague, overall it felt like a downswing that he may not recover from.
Part of this extreme nadir may have been due to the new expansion of Legacy of the Void, which was a career turning point for many players. But, INnoVation himself was not shy about admitting his lack of focus in 2016, becoming lax in practice and focusing more on League of Legends than StarCraft II.
In December 2016, INnoVation decided it was time to be good at StarCraft II again. After a year where he had gone entirely missing from GSL Code S, he abruptly announced the old INnoVation was back by winning IEM Gyeonggi. It must have been an especially infuriating run for his peers to have seen, as he took down both Dark and Stats—two of 2016's breakout performers and both individual league champions—on his way to the trophy. This victory set up INnoVation's 2017 campaign, which was arguably his most consistent run of championship-level play in his career. He proceeded to win 2017 SSL Season 1 (albeit, in its reduced 10-player format), GSL vs The World, and finally, his third Code S championship in 2017's Season 3.
That Code S title would be the toughest one INnoVation had ever won, as he was pushed to elimination-point in five consecutive series. However, neither aLive, GuMiho, ByuN, Dark, nor sOs could take that final map needed to put INnoVation away for good, and the machine clutched out his most hard-earned championship yet.
Unfortunately, even this rejuvenated INnoVation couldn't break the streak of underperforming in world championship events. Despite ending 2017 second in the WCS Korea Standings, INnoVation had to settle for another RO8 finish at BlizzCon, barely losing 2-3 to TY. This disappointing loss would set up the final and maybe the most dramatic rejuvenation cycle for INnoVation.
INnoVation collected new team uniforms like he did trophies, playing for seven different teams in his career.
The 2018 version of INnoVation hardly resembled the multiple-champion of 2017, as he was eliminated in the RO16 of all three Code S seasons. While it wasn't as disastrous as the 2016 campaign, it was a write-off year all the same as he failed to qualify for the Global Finals at BlizzCon.
In an eerie instance of deja vu from IEM Gyeonggi 2016, INnoVation portended his final championship run with a series of impressive tournament results toward the end of 2018. First, he survived the brutal Korean qualifier for WESG, earning the right to represent Korea alongside Dark and Maru. Then, at HomeStory Cup 18 INnoVation made it all the way to the grand finals, and pushed the newly crowned WCS champion Serral to a game seven before finally tapping out (this was all the more surprising as five months prior, Serral had thrashed INnoVation 3-0 in GSL vs. The World)
Those strong performances initially seemed like false-positives, as INnoVation started 2019 with a dud performance at IEM Katowice where he finished last place in his RO24 group (he did happen to win a 2-1 against Serral in a meaningless match for both players in the final round-robin). However, with that disappointment as the backdrop, he would achieve the most surprising run of his career just three weeks later at WESG 2018 main event (confusingly held in March of 2019).
The first part of the tournament was routine business for INnoVation, as he blitzed through his all-foreigner slate of opponents in the RO48, RO16, and RO8. However, a RO4 match against Maru seemed like the inevitable end of the road for INnoVation, with the Jin Air Terran having achieved triple Code S golds in 2018 compared to INnoVation's triple RO16's. But, against all expectations, INnoVation defeated Maru and did it convincingly as well, taking a 3-1 series victory.
Things didn't get any easier in the finals, as INnoVation matched up against Serral in a rematch from HomeStory Cup. Even if INnoVation had kept things shockingly close in Krefeld, it didn't seem realistic that he could do the same against the most dominant player of 2018 in a much more high-stakes match. However, this time, INnoVation came out on the winning end of the seven-game series, taking the WESG championship and his biggest ever single payday of $150,000. Then, in typical INnoVation fashion, he was eliminated from the Code S RO16 just days later.
INnoVation would remain active for another two years after his WESG win, but the triumph in Chongqing marked the end of his time as a top-tier championship contender. Amusingly enough, for a player of such highs and lows, INnoVation's fade-out phase from 2019-2021 might have been the most consistent in his career. He remained a solid RO8 level player in both Code S and international events, and even finished RO4+ of a handful of pandemic-era online tournaments (a second place finish in TSL5 was his high mark). Perhaps INnoVation actually did have one more championship run in him if given enough time, but the StarCraft II world never got a chance to find out. The Korean military precluded that possibility, finally calling his number in the summer of 2021.
Still, the Machine would give us a final 'comeback' of sorts in 2023. Freshly discharged and having barely practiced according to his peers, he qualified for one last Code S Season before wordlessly departing the scene for good (or so it seems). It was as if he was teasing us for one last time: "You know what I could do if I tried."
The Tools: The Epitome of Unstoppable Macro
While many Terrans players aspire to the flamboyant, micro-heavy styles of 2011 MMA, 2015 Maru, or 2021 Clem, the pragmatism and brutality of every-era INnoVation is the style they should be trying to emulate. From day one, INnoVation’s macro mechanics were world class, able to magically produce more units than any of his opponents. His micro was certainly top-tier as well (though it became blunted over the years), but it simply never had any room to shine next to his overwhelming macro.
That lethal combination led to many of the most one-sided victories in professional StarCraft II, where INnoVation simply opened with a standard build, applied some rudimentary pressure, and steamrolled his opponent with a much, much larger army. When INnoVation was playing at 100%, he was simply untouchable, and every one of his peers—no matter how accomplished—knew this and feared him.
Top 3 control meets top 1 macro.
The Numbers: Top 2 GOAT Candidate Until 2017, Still an Amazing Resume Afterward
Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSLᵃ) win-loss records From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2017
a: SSL 2017 was excluded due its 10-player format. b: Played in a 16-player, double-elim format.
Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSLᵃ) finishes From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2017
a: SSL 2017 was excluded due its 10-player format. b: The opening round for these tournaments was the RO32 except the following: SSL 2015-16 (RO16), OSL 2012 (RO16). Tournaments starting in the RO16 were recorded as not having a second round.
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Both players had checked off four boxes on the way to the hallowed G5L, with each having 3 Code S/Open championships and 1 GSL vs The World/Global Championship to their name. With both players also having won a number of non-GSL events of varying prestige, it was often a matter of personal taste as to which player had the edge.
In any case, let's get back to the methodology of this particular series and focus on Korean Individual Leagues (Code S, SSL, OSL) and players who competed within the time period. Looking at INnoVation 2012-2017 prime, he was clearly the best player of his era. He won three Korean Individual League titles through 2017 (four if you count the 10-player SSL 2017), putting him ahead of Maru, Classic, and Zest who all won two. Even all-time greats like herO, Dark and Stats were still stuck at a single Korean Individual League win during this timeframe, with much of their resumes getting filled out in the 2018+ era. Only soO is ahead of INnoVation in total finals appearances with six, but with the obvious caveat of all of them ending in runner-up finishes.
While INnoVation's career was full of ups and downs, it should be noted that it was extremely difficult to achieve year-over-year consistency during his 2012-2017 prime period. His peers at the top of the scene all went through similar slumps of some sort, which are well documented in the articles for Rain, soO, sOs, and TY. Thus, despite INnoVation's truly dismal crash in 2016, his cumulative record during his prime still comes out ahead of his contemporaries.
Notable half-year win-loss records vs Korean playersᵃ during KeSPA era From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to 2017
a: To adjust for record inflation from international tournaments during an era where the Korea-World gap was at its widest. b: Match records can be misleading up to 2016 due to many best-of-one Proleague matches. While they were included for reference, game records are probably a better indicator of ability.
A big part of INnoVation's previous GOAT case was the aura of dominance he exuded. Indeed, INnoVation put up monster win-loss stats and win percentages when he was playing his best StarCraft, making him feel utterly unbeatable. Interestingly enough, the above numbers might even downplay how dominant he felt to the community at the time, though there's no objective way to capture that vibe.
StarCraft II Proleague win-loss records (map score)ᵃᵇ
a: The 2011/12 season was excluded as it was played in a hybrid Brood War + SC2 format. b: Playoff statistics included. c: Classic's nine games as Terran (2-7) were excluded.
Although INnoVation missed a year of Proleague due to his dalliance with Acer, INnoVation has one of the strongest historical Proleague resumes in terms of win-rate. At 68.2%, INnoVation has the highest mark for a player who recorded a significant number of games. While sOs, herO, and Zest may have a stronger cumulative resumes, INnoVation and Maru would surely beat them in the "who would you have wanted for a single season?" test.
While single players can only be given so much credit for team success in the Proleague format, it's notable that INnoVation is one of only three players—alongside his former STX teammates Classic and Trap—who won two Proleague championships in SC2. INnoVation was at least the clear ace on one championship squad (2013 STX), and at worst the co-ace on another (the extremely evenly balanced 2015 SKT roster).
Also, even though non-Proleague team competitions weren't seriously considered for this series, it's interesting to note that INnoVation is probably the most successful teamleague player in SC2 history (Maru could also be considered). His team choices worked out so that he won championships in GSTL, Acer TeamStory Cup, WTL/SCBOY leagues, and Nation Wars, almost always acting as the ace player with several multi-kills.
The Placement:
INnoVation has a somewhat similar career outline as #6 Zest, earning legendary status through a series of championship runs during the mid 2010's. The StarCraft II landscape was very different when the two players were in their primes, with perennial championship contention being much more difficult compared to the present day. A single Code S/BlizzCon championship + one or two secondary titles was often enough to earn a player the distinction of being the best player of the year. Under those circumstances, Zest posted the best year of any Korean in 2014, while INnoVation made a run at the same distinction in 2013, 2015 and 2017.
Both players were very productive in Proleague, but in different ways. Zest was one of the historic workhorses, tying herO for most games played and maintaining a very good win-rate while doing so. Meanwhile, INnoVation lacks in game count due to his one season outside of KeSPA, but was a more dominant player than Zest when he did compete.
Outside of their primes, both players enjoyed some surprising runs in the modern era, with Zest achieving two IEM World Championship runner-ups while INnoVation took home the trophy at WESG 2018.
Weighting it all together, INnoVation's aggregate resume is just better than Zest's. Even with one of the worst wasted year in 2016, INnoVation still achieved better overall performances over his career.
The Games
Games were selected primarily based on how well they represented a players' style, not entertainment value.
INnoVation vs Soulkey - 2013 Code S Season 2, Grand Finals, Game 2 (June 1, 2013)
While this series would ultimately end in a reverse-sweep victory for Soulkey, at least the first half of the series demonstrated why INnoVation was regarded as the best player in the world and heavy favorite headed into the match.
In particular, game two on Bel'Shir Vestige featured a textbook demonstration of INnoVAtion's unstoppable parade push, as he bashed Soulkey into submission with an unending stream of infantry. Funny enough, the 8-Rax bio 'all-in' seen here (complete with the omission of 3/3 upgrades) would prove to be a valid strategy for the rest of INnoVation's career, surviving dozens of balance patches and map pool changes.
INnoVation vs sOs - 2015 Proleague Grand Finals, SK Telecom T1 vs Jin Air Green Wings, Game 4 (October 10, 2015)
While not the cleanest game INnoVation ever played, this bout serves as a good demonstration of how he could make some mistakes around the margins and still win by having way, way more stuff.
sOs tried his best to slow down INnoVation in this match, and exploited Vaani Research Station's layout to launch a series of backdoor attacks. Combined with some dubious troop movements from INnoVation, he may have been able to play into a winning position against a different Terran. However, INnoVation being INnoVation, he shrugged off all of these minor setbacks and simply overwhelmed sOs in the end.
INnoVation vs Cure - 2014 Code S Season 3 Semifinals, Game 7 (September 26, 2014)
This match is similar to the famous TaeJa vs INnoVation Newkirk Precinct game, except this time INnoVation's mech ultimately triumphed against the nimble bio of his opponent.
Long before Cure became the player we know today, he had one of StarCraft II's more inexplicable hot streaks in the second half of 2014. In fact, he played so well during that period he was even able to push the mighty INnoVation to his limit in the Code S semifinals. However, INnoVation stayed calm in the seventh and deciding set, and calmly piloted his mech to victory against Cure's frenetic infantry movements and backdoor attacks.
INnoVation vs Serral - HomeStory Cup 18, Grand Finals, Game 1 (November 25, 2018)
Fans of StarCraft II spent all of 2018 hoping for an offline BO5+ match between Maru and Serral, only for the dream matchup to never materialize. But, fear not fans of TvZ, as the finals between INnoVation and Serral proved to be a most entertaining replacement.
Game 1 in particular was a delight, with INnoVation navigating his way to the late-game despite constant run-bys from the Finnish Zerg. While INnoVation is most famous for his mid-game parade pushes, he reminded us he was deadly in every stage of the game by grinding out a win against one of the best late-game Zergs.
Written by: Mizenhauer Editors: CosmicSpiral, Wax Statistics and records: Aligulac.com and Liquipedia Images and Photos: Keving Chang, Patrick Strack (via ESL), Blizzard, TakeTV
Wow. Now I'm really confused. That means you rank Dark (or maybe MVP?) over Innovation?! Top 3 seems a lock for Maru, Rogue and Serral, but up until today I thought Innovation was a lock for top 4 with the aforementioned top 3, and all of those a cut above the competition.
I think Mvp will be omitted as this article states Mvp and Inno are top 2 candidates for first half of sc2 and definitely argues that Inno was better in the second half (which is a fair point)
On February 06 2024 20:48 digmouse wrote: Maru, Serral, Rogue are shoe-ins for 3 of the 4 remaining spots, so that means one of Mvp and Dark will not make the cut huh.
It's gotta be Dark.
MVP had 3 outstanding years while Dark has 9 good years, 4 of those very good, almost outstanding
INno at #5? Below either Dark or mvp? I find that very bold. Imo INno would be the ultimate goat in a world with Terran strong during LotV and Maru not existing
It’s still a decent spot for The Machine, but he was so outrageously dominant with imba hellbats, beating every Terran and P/Z. Then during windows mine never ending pushes, and his LotV resurgence… incredible player, with the best smirk
On February 06 2024 21:14 Poopi wrote: INno at #5? Below either Dark or mvp? I find that very bold. Imo INno would be the ultimate goat in a world with Terran strong during LotV and Maru not existing
It’s still a decent spot for The Machine, but he was so outrageously dominant with imba hellbats, beating every Terran and P/Z. Then during windows mine never ending pushes, and his LotV resurgence… incredible player, with the best smirk
What hurts Inno is probably his lack of result in IEM/Blizzcon tournament, I dont recall him made it to a single Ro4 but I might be wrong. His only "big time" tournament win was WESG in 2019, hes the poor man version of Maru imo, with lots of success in KR but less accomplishment in the big tournament.
Damn, Dark above Innovation? I know we're not weighing 1st place over 2nds as much as GSL does, but that's a lot more of 1st places. Will make for an interesting read next time though! Maybe there is an argument for Dark at 4th if you're considering who he's losing to that causes him to get those 2nd places (or knocked out even earlier) - usually Maru and Rogue, and sometimes Serral, all of who will be Top 3.
(#4 definitely can't be MVP, being over Inno wouldn't make sense. And Dark below soO wouldn't make sense.)
I do find it weird though having Innovation only 1 spot higher than Zest, I feel there's a significant gap between their achievements.
great article once again! i agree with inno being on this list, perhaps wouldn't have ranked him as highly myself but alas his resume does speak for itself. At this point i think its safe to assume MVP isn't making the cut, as omitting Dark would be even weirder and the top 3 is locked up for pretty obvious reasons.
But can someone enlighten me by which objective standards Rain can reasonably be placed above MVP? I dont think its fair to not rate the early years of GSL just because stuff wasn't as figured out yet, as there was a lot of competition still and, well, someone had to be a trailblazer for the kespa teams. MVP has 4 GSL titles to his name, only Maru has more I think??
Player ID Player Name Total (Game) 1. Finland Serral Joona Sotala $1,330,791.82 2. Korea, Republic of Maru Cho, Sung Choo $1,220,918.05 3. Korea, Republic of Rogue Lee, Byung Ryul $1,074,715.88 4. Korea, Republic of Dark Park, Ryung Woo $1,048,526.17 5. Korea, Republic of INnoVation Lee, Shin Hyung $795,694.96
On February 06 2024 21:30 SharkStarcraft wrote: great article once again! i agree with inno being on this list, perhaps wouldn't have ranked him as highly myself but alas his resume does speak for itself. At this point i think its safe to assume MVP isn't making the cut, as omitting Dark would be even weirder and the top 3 is locked up for pretty obvious reasons.
But can someone enlighten me by which objective standards Rain can reasonably be placed above MVP? I dont think its fair to not rate the early years of GSL just because stuff wasn't as figured out yet, as there was a lot of competition still and, well, someone had to be a trailblazer for the kespa teams. MVP has 4 GSL titles to his name, only Maru has more I think??
MVP has 3 GSL Code S titles, and a GSL vs the World type title. If we're talking about GSL tourneys in general, other players have 4 or more titles. But yeah, Maru has 7 GSL Code S titles, insane.
On February 06 2024 21:32 Harris1st wrote: From esport earnings ....
Player ID Player Name Total (Game) 1. Finland Serral Joona Sotala $1,330,791.82 2. Korea, Republic of Maru Cho, Sung Choo $1,220,918.05 3. Korea, Republic of Rogue Lee, Byung Ryul $1,074,715.88 4. Korea, Republic of Dark Park, Ryung Woo $1,048,526.17 5. Korea, Republic of INnoVation Lee, Shin Hyung $795,694.96
On February 06 2024 21:30 SharkStarcraft wrote: great article once again! i agree with inno being on this list, perhaps wouldn't have ranked him as highly myself but alas his resume does speak for itself. At this point i think its safe to assume MVP isn't making the cut, as omitting Dark would be even weirder and the top 3 is locked up for pretty obvious reasons.
But can someone enlighten me by which objective standards Rain can reasonably be placed above MVP? I dont think its fair to not rate the early years of GSL just because stuff wasn't as figured out yet, as there was a lot of competition still and, well, someone had to be a trailblazer for the kespa teams. MVP has 4 GSL titles to his name, only Maru has more I think??
You do realize you answered your own question. By your logic, there is no way Rain can be above Mvp (whether or not I agree is another story), thus Mvp still has to appear in the last four entries (according to you).
I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
On February 06 2024 21:32 Harris1st wrote: From esport earnings ....
Player ID Player Name Total (Game) 1. Finland Serral Joona Sotala $1,330,791.82 2. Korea, Republic of Maru Cho, Sung Choo $1,220,918.05 3. Korea, Republic of Rogue Lee, Byung Ryul $1,074,715.88 4. Korea, Republic of Dark Park, Ryung Woo $1,048,526.17 5. Korea, Republic of INnoVation Lee, Shin Hyung $795,694.96
If Rogue didn't have to do the military service, he would probably still be No.1. I have faith in the sexi boi!
I am still quite sad that INno didn't fully come back (although there is little competition / prizepool remaining in the KR scene, hard to be motivated if you weren't much before military already). Thankfully I was able to follow his brother Gumayusi in LoL, who is also a top world talent, but watching INno play and especially watch his face cam was an incredible experience
Nicknamed The Machine and said to have little emotion, he showed actually quite a lot. He is either #3 or #2 terran all time in this GOAT list though, behind Maru and mvp, or just Maru. Still an incredible achievement
On February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4
Maybe Dark and MVP are both out.
Waxangel confirmed 1) Life would not be included, period. 2) even if they allowed themselves to include him, his achievements wouldn't make him worthy of a top 10 spot given the criteria anyways
So I am 90% positive #4 is either Dark or mvp (I doubt ByuN's one good year is enough, don't see any other player worthy of top 4), both are credible depending on how you weight dominating during a short period of time + comeback despite injury etc narrative, vs slowly but surely accumulating important wins while remaining a top player
Top 3 is also 90%+ guaranteed to be any combination of Serral / Rogue / Maru given their achievements which comfortably exceed those of any other players
On February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4
Maybe Dark and MVP are both out.
Wax said in another thread that Life was not in.
It gotta be MVP next, ain't no way Dark get up to number 4 in my opinion.
From memory Zest’s resume is reasonably similar to Darks’s, least in terms of top 2 finishes in the big boy tournaments, but Zest’s were when SC2 was at its most cutthroat (mostly), and Dark’s more latterly.
I rate Dark very highly and think he’s a lot closer to Rogue for the Korean Zerg GOAT than many, but I do struggle to put him above Zest
Inno found a way to win something every year. I think if he never left for the military he'd be higher on the list. That being said, 5th seems like a very reasonable spot for him.
On February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4
Maybe Dark and MVP are both out.
Wax said in another thread that Life was not in.
It gotta be MVP next, ain't no way Dark get up to number 4 in my opinion.
From memory Zest’s resume is reasonably similar to Darks’s, least in terms of top 2 finishes in the big boy tournaments, but Zest’s were when SC2 was at its most cutthroat (mostly), and Dark’s more latterly.
I rate Dark very highly and think he’s a lot closer to Rogue for the Korean Zerg GOAT than many, but I do struggle to put him above Zest
Dark however holds the title of best Zerg army control and I won't let anyone take that away from him. Although I do think Serral has him beat specifically when it comes to viper control vs skytoss. (This has nothing to do with your post but I wanted to say it)
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
I think there’s a case to bump Rogue, I know many won’t agree but hey, that’s part of the fun :p
Maru and Inno were quite a bit more competitive for quite a few years when competition was fiercer, as contemporaries of Rogue. As to how much one counts that for, will be quite personal but it should count for something.
Serral just started later, in a different region so obviously we can’t compare them in that way, Rogue has 1 more WC iirc, and Starleagues that Serral isn’t competing in. But Serral has been unrelentingly, brutally consistent for basically half a decade, and tbh it’s only that and his sheer level for me that have him high in GOAT lists, it’s not just his trophy cabinet. I mean Reynor has 2 WCs too but I really don’t think he’s on Serral’s level, he can peak as high but he’s not quite the complete package. Rogue’s a wee bit streaky too, as was Inno.
But yeah plenty of arguments to the contrary, personal weighting absolutely comes into it too, here’s mine with all my bias
In no Particular Order (it’s too hard dagnabbit) Maru - Just there or there abouts forever. Occasionally does jaw dropping feats and his sheer skill at the game is close to unmatched when he’s on it. Also was still making deep runs in tournaments when almost nobody else playing his race was, so bonus points there.
Serral - Just inhumanly consistent, has a winning record against basically everyone of note. As Gary Lineker once memorably opined ‘Twenty-two men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans always win.’ You can basically just reappropriate this to ‘StarCraft is a simple game, you both execute your game plans and Serral reads yours and kills you.’ Broke the glass ceiling of a foreigner winning things like WCs and being consistently amongst the best in the world, which we take for granted these days but that was a big deal, so he gets a few bonus points.
Mvp - Just ahead of the competition at the time, and basically the complete player. He gets bonus points for laying the foundations of how Terran should be played, as well as still making deep runs while debilitated with injury. In a strategy game more than any other eSport I feel figuring the game out, rather than merely executing very well should count for something. I know Miz is transparent about not factoring that in, but I am.
Innovation - Absolute monster who probably should have won more, at his peak he was just mechanically ahead of the field. Possibly, even for a relatively short period just the scariest player out there, it’s been a long time and I’ve rewatched a bit but no trickery, no real deviation or sneakiness, that initial form of Innovation was just stomping the absolute cream of the crop with raw mechanical chops, so he gets a bonus point for maybe the scariest peak.
Of course there is the pesky matter of trophies to discuss, but I’ve broadly made my top 4 GOAT list as the top 4 players at some specific thing. Maru has a little peak skill but he’s broadly in for being a contender for forever, regardless of the state of Terran. Serral is Mr Consistent, little peak skill there too. Mvp is innovation and still being relevant despite adverse factors and Innovation is mostly peak skill as compared to his competition.
To me greatness is a rather emotional, rather personal thing, whereas ‘the best’ is something more objective. The problem with the latter is SC2 has had so many shifts and changes that even the latter is basically impossible to fully figure out.
So sure I’ll factor in winning and performance to whittle the list down, and then I’m really going with my gut on different sub-categories and how I value them.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention, and without the emotional resonance of an Mvp still being competitive despite injuries necessitating him changing his whole style, or Serral who had greater consistency atop him being that first foreigner to be the best in the world/close
On February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4
Maybe Dark and MVP are both out.
Wax said in another thread that Life was not in.
It gotta be MVP next, ain't no way Dark get up to number 4 in my opinion.
From memory Zest’s resume is reasonably similar to Darks’s, least in terms of top 2 finishes in the big boy tournaments, but Zest’s were when SC2 was at its most cutthroat (mostly), and Dark’s more latterly.
I rate Dark very highly and think he’s a lot closer to Rogue for the Korean Zerg GOAT than many, but I do struggle to put him above Zest
Dark however holds the title of best Zerg army control and I won't let anyone take that away from him. Although I do think Serral has him beat specifically when it comes to viper control vs skytoss. (This has nothing to do with your post but I wanted to say it)
It needs to be said as I think it’s true!
Although Dark is also maybe the only player I can think of whose stellar army control is sometimes a negative, he’ll stick with off-meta compositions and stubbornly try to make them work via said control, IMO partly through to wanting to amuse himself.
It certainly entertains me to watch when it does work out.
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
Yeah Serral is basically Rogue with less WC (edited) trophies
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
Yeah Serral is basically Rogue with less trophies
Serral has won more events than Rogue... what world are we living in lol
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
Yeah Serral is basically Rogue with less WC (edited) trophies
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
Yeah Serral is basically Rogue with less trophies
Serral has won more events than Rogue... what world are we living in lol
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
I thought ‘But Serral has been unrelentingly, brutally consistent for basically half a decade, and tbh it’s only that and his sheer level for me that have him high in GOAT lists, it’s not just his trophy cabinet. I mean Reynor has 2 WCs too but I really don’t think he’s on Serral’s level’ covered it somewhat.
Rogue has contemporaries that outperformed him in HoTS thru earlier LoTV, and in the era he started winning a lot Serral has been more generally consistent in, a player who wasn’t active in the Kespa era (or Korean).
So it really depends how you want to weight an extra WC + Starleagues versus Serral basically making Ro8 at least in basically every tournament he enters for half a decade + having a winning H2H against everyone, including Rogue iirc.
Personally I think Serral’s overall body of work from 2017 (the first time Rogue won a tournament iirc) is better, it ticks more boxes for me.
May be less sexy, or indeed climactic but better. Hope someone picks up on that joke.
On February 06 2024 22:47 lokol4890 wrote: Huh now I'm pumped to see who the #4 is because I really thought inno had that spot locked down
I must say I feel the same, now I'm a bit confused. #1-2-3 Rogue/Maru/Serral is probably locked down (I'll be extremely surprised if any of those 3 ends up in 4th place), but the #4 spot will make for interesting conversations
Im still hoping for that qouta-protoss to get shoe-horned into the top 3 to keep the "protoss isnt worse than the other races" narrative going. No idea who it would be, but im drfinitely here for the outrage if it happens.
On February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4
Maybe Dark and MVP are both out.
Wax said in another thread that Life was not in.
It gotta be MVP next, ain't no way Dark get up to number 4 in my opinion.
From memory Zest’s resume is reasonably similar to Darks’s, least in terms of top 2 finishes in the big boy tournaments, but Zest’s were when SC2 was at its most cutthroat (mostly), and Dark’s more latterly.
I rate Dark very highly and think he’s a lot closer to Rogue for the Korean Zerg GOAT than many, but I do struggle to put him above Zest
Also Zest has the benefit of being the best Protoss, which boost his case a lot for me. Dark is at best the third best zerg of his era as a top player, and at best the third best Korean.
I know he won Blizzcon 2019 in the world saddest tournament, but even then. There was no feeling he was head an shoulders the best in the world, especially with Rogue winning Kato just after.
More than any other player, I think INnoVation had the greatest aura at their peak. Early 2013 INnoVation was a monster. You genuinely felt like nobody could beat him. Soulkey beat him by all-inning him three times in a row. In the only actual macro game Soulkey beat him in, Soulkey got the biggest, luckiest fluke of all time with mutas catching INno's medivac drop. Despite being reverse swept, I came away from that series feeling like INnoVation was the far superior player. I felt that way then and I still feel it now. Even with those cracks in the armour such as his apparent weakness to all-ins, he was a dominant force. People joking about him being an emotionless, murderous android were no exaggeration, that's exactly what he felt like. An AI created to destroy people in StarCraft.
That's what makes Mvp's miracle against him so good. INnoVation single-handedly completely revitalised DongRaeGu's own aura by getting crushed and outplayed by him 2-0. INno also did a lot for early HotS TvZ. Hellbat drops notwithstanding, INnoVation said "Okay losers, this is how you play the match-up. You make marines, and you make mines. You rally them across the map and you don't stop until the opponent is dead." and the marine/mine parade push, while never being as brutally strong as it was in 2013, remained pretty much the core TvZ strategy for the entire expansion.
It's funny for somebody who was so inconsistent from year to year, I think INnoVation is one of the most consistent players ever. Whether contending for titles or not, he always felt like an extremely good player who you could never really bet against. Somebody capable of beating literally anyone on a good day.
On February 07 2024 01:45 RPR_Tempest wrote: More than any other player, I think INnoVation had the greatest aura at their peak. Early 2013 INnoVation was a monster. You genuinely felt like nobody could beat him. Soulkey beat him by all-inning him three times in a row. In the only actual macro game Soulkey beat him in, Soulkey got the biggest, luckiest fluke of all time with mutas catching INno's medivac drop. Despite being reverse swept, I came away from that series feeling like INnoVation was the far superior player. I felt that way then and I still feel it now. Even with those cracks in the armour such as his apparent weakness to all-ins, he was a dominant force. People joking about him being an emotionless, murderous android were no exaggeration, that's exactly what he felt like. An AI created to destroy people in StarCraft.
That's what makes Mvp's miracle against him so good. INnoVation single-handedly completely revitalised DongRaeGu's own aura by getting crushed and outplayed by him 2-0. INno also did a lot for early HotS TvZ. Hellbat drops notwithstanding, INnoVation said "Okay losers, this is how you play the match-up. You make marines, and you make mines. You rally them across the map and you don't stop until the opponent is dead." and the marine/mine parade push, while never being as brutally strong as it was in 2013, remained pretty much the core TvZ strategy for the entire expansion.
It's funny for somebody who was so inconsistent from year to year, I think INnoVation is one of the most consistent players ever. Whether contending for titles or not, he always felt like an extremely good player who you could never really bet against. Somebody capable of beating literally anyone on a good day.
This, and it may seem arbitrary or very subjective, but that aura was something. It was sitting and watching this bloke just appear and smash everyone, mostly just playing the exact same way he did last series he popped out and going ‘you know how I play, good luck stopping it’. Especially in TvZ.
It was like some guy just popped in, and went into the menu and upped the difficulty level and everyone else had to step up to the plate.
They eventually did, but it’s very difficult to articulate to someone who’s followed for less time quite what 2013 Inno felt like when he rapidly transitioned from BW to being that good so quickly.
Soulkey was/is an underrated, top, top player but I also agree despite winning that GSL finals Inno still kinda felt like the superior player.
Inno probably didn’t win as much as he should have, although he wasn’t a slouch in that respect in his 2013 vintage. Which IMO is as far beyond the rest of the field as any player has ever been
On February 06 2024 21:30 SharkStarcraft wrote: great article once again! i agree with inno being on this list, perhaps wouldn't have ranked him as highly myself but alas his resume does speak for itself. At this point i think its safe to assume MVP isn't making the cut, as omitting Dark would be even weirder and the top 3 is locked up for pretty obvious reasons.
But can someone enlighten me by which objective standards Rain can reasonably be placed above MVP? I dont think its fair to not rate the early years of GSL just because stuff wasn't as figured out yet, as there was a lot of competition still and, well, someone had to be a trailblazer for the kespa teams. MVP has 4 GSL titles to his name, only Maru has more I think??
You do realize you answered your own question. By your logic, there is no way Rain can be above Mvp (whether or not I agree is another story), thus Mvp still has to appear in the last four entries (according to you).
Yes but completely omitting Dark at this point makes little sense as he is (according to me ) far too accomplished over a long period of time to not make the top 10 at all. So I would agree that Dark>MVP but still MVP>Rain so something doesn't sit right with me haha thank you for your hard work as always
Ok edit maybe omitting Dark is ok. I am trying to convince myself that he was just a patch zerg and not even the best one in Korea let alone the world. He did earn over 1 million dollars though and won so much... ahh its tough
Inno was probably the GOAT for a while, but 5th now seems fair. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills seeing so many people underrate Dark. He has 9 years of being a consistent championship-contender, and while he has fewer golds, was on the podium (3/4th place or better) FAR more consistently than Rogue or Innovation. Rogue was notoriously weak between his championships. Also, "major" tournament wins with stacked competition count for something, particularly events like Dark's win in the AfreecaTV Champions cup with a 15k prize pool.
That said, I would have had MVP and maybe Trap on the list ahead of Rain and TY, but Dark is definitely justifiable at 4th.
Premier Gold: DH Masters 2022 Valencia 2021 GSL Code S S2 TSL6 2019 WCS Global Finals 2019 Super Tournament 2 2019 GSL Code S S2 2016 WCS Korea S2 Cross Finals (don’t count this for much) 2016 SSL S1
Silver: ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Winter 2023 GSL Code S S2 2022 Super Tournament 2 2022 Super Tournament 1 2020 Super Tournament 1 2018 Super Tournament 1 WESG 2017 2017 SSL S2 2016 WCS Global Playoffs and Finals 2016 SSL Season 2 2016 WCS Korea S1 Cross Finals (don’t really count this) 2015 Kespa Cup S2 2015 Kespa Cup S1
Bronze: 2023 GSL Code S S3 2022 GSL Code S S2 2022 GSL Code S S1 King of Battles 2 2019 GSL Code S S3 2019 GSL Code S S1 IEM Season XIII Katowice 2018 Super Tournament 2 2018 GSL vs the World 2018 GSL Code S S1 2017 Super Tournament 2 2017 GSL Code S S3 IEM Season XI World Championship IEM Season XI Gyeonggi IEM Season IX World Championship
Major Golds: WardiTV 2023 (ft. Clem, herO, Maxpax, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Solar, etc) WardiTV Spring Championship 2023 (ft. Clem, Solar, Byun, herO, Gumiho Cure, Maxpax, etc) 2022 AfreecaTV Champions Cup (ft. Maru, Serral, Reynor, Clem, herO, etc) 2022 Gladiators’ Cup (ft. Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Cure, Byun, Maxpax, etc)
Major Silvers: WardiTV Korean Royale S2 (loss to Maru) 2023 PiG Sty Festival 4.0 (loss to Serral) WardiTV Winter Championship 2023 2022 Pig Sty Festival 2.0 NeXT 2020 Winter
INno and Serral are probably the only two players that inspire fear from seemingly their most standard macro game.
Guys like Maru, Reynor, or Zest might have their own flair to the game, but INno and Serral at their peaks felt unbeatable when doing the exact same thing as everyone else.
He also has a real claim to be the best teamleague player of all time. Maru edges him out in Proleague on an individual level in my opinion, but INno carrying in GSTL and Nation Wars might put him over the edge.
It's a shame he never had a truly crowning moment in an otherwise insane career. His best chance was probably 2017 Blizzcon, barely losing to TY in the ro8 when he would have certainly won the finals against his rival soO. (The most one-sided rivalry to add, INno beat soO in 4 finals with 4-0, 4-1, 4-2 and 4-3 map scores if I remember right)
edit: Scratch that, WeSG was absolutely a crowning moment. INno spoke in interviews that his goal was to win either a Blizzcon, Katowice, or WeSG. And he had a huge fanbase in China as well
On February 07 2024 02:43 arcane1129 wrote: Inno was probably the GOAT for a while, but 5th now seems fair. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills seeing so many people underrate Dark. He has 9 years of being a consistent championship-contender, and while he has fewer golds, was on the podium (3/4th place or better) FAR more consistently than Rogue or Innovation. Rogue was notoriously weak between his championships. Also, "major" tournament wins with stacked competition count for something, particularly events like Dark's win in the AfreecaTV Champions cup with a 15k prize pool.
That said, I would have had MVP and maybe Trap on the list ahead of Rain and TY, but Dark is definitely justifiable at 4th.
Premier Gold: DH Masters 2022 Valencia 2021 GSL Code S S2 TSL6 2019 WCS Global Finals 2019 Super Tournament 2 2019 GSL Code S S2 2016 WCS Korea S2 Cross Finals (don’t count this for much) 2016 SSL S1
Silver: ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Winter 2023 GSL Code S S2 2022 Super Tournament 2 2022 Super Tournament 1 2020 Super Tournament 1 2018 Super Tournament 1 WESG 2017 2017 SSL S2 2016 WCS Global Playoffs and Finals 2016 SSL Season 2 2016 WCS Korea S1 Cross Finals (don’t really count this) 2015 Kespa Cup S2 2015 Kespa Cup S1
Bronze: 2023 GSL Code S S3 2022 GSL Code S S2 2022 GSL Code S S1 King of Battles 2 2019 GSL Code S S3 2019 GSL Code S S1 IEM Season XIII Katowice 2018 Super Tournament 2 2018 GSL vs the World 2018 GSL Code S S1 2017 Super Tournament 2 2017 GSL Code S S3 IEM Season XI World Championship IEM Season XI Gyeonggi IEM Season IX World Championship
Major Golds: WardiTV 2023 (ft. Clem, herO, Maxpax, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Solar, etc) WardiTV Spring Championship 2023 (ft. Clem, Solar, Byun, herO, Gumiho Cure, Maxpax, etc) 2022 AfreecaTV Champions Cup (ft. Maru, Serral, Reynor, Clem, herO, etc) 2022 Gladiators’ Cup (ft. Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Cure, Byun, Maxpax, etc)
Major Silvers: WardiTV Korean Royale S2 (loss to Maru) 2023 PiG Sty Festival 4.0 (loss to Serral) WardiTV Winter Championship 2023 2022 Pig Sty Festival 2.0 NeXT 2020 Winter
If this is your process that's fine, but I cast a much wider net when evaluating players. These articles are not the best way to get into the nitty gritty due to formatting, but I will be doing supplementary blogs which will cover my evaluation process.
On February 07 2024 04:28 ejozl wrote: I made a list based solely on esportsearnings. Each player's earnings divided by the top 10 earnings for that race. So we get:
Here we see that indeed Neeb>Rain. Facts don't lie.
NA players got way too much money with the WCS system, the worst offender is probably Special who won like 460k$ mostly from dominating Kelazhur and Cham for years and doing decently well in WCS region locked events…
On February 07 2024 04:28 ejozl wrote: I made a list based solely on esportsearnings. Each player's earnings divided by the top 10 earnings for that race. So we get:
Here we see that indeed Neeb>Rain. Facts don't lie.
NA players got way too much money with the WCS system, the worst offender is probably Special who won like 460k$ mostly from dominating Kelazhur and Cham for years and doing decently well in WCS region locked events…
Yeah, while I’m a consistent proponent of regional competition as a pipeline to prepping for standing on the global stage, it can be overly generous
Given that people are still unsure if we'll see MVP or Dark next, while no one was doubting Inno, I'd have thought he was locked for #4.
Crazy dominant player, with a unique macro-heavy style. He was the clear GOAT to me until 2017.
Plus, as a noob Terran player, I feel I could always re-use his builds and get great success at my level (good luck trying that with Maru's lategame or Byun reaper builds...). Thanks for everything Inno!
Wow I'm shocked that Inno isn't #4. I thought he was a lock for that spot. Neither Mvp or Dark have a good argument to be above him imo. Curious if the list will have another big surprise now.
On February 06 2024 20:38 Mizenhauer wrote: Hey, everyone. The GOAT series will continue after IEM Katowice. Thanks for all the support thus far and enjoy the weekend.
On February 07 2024 05:54 Nasigil wrote: Well... depends on how no.4 is gonna turn out, you will end up with either: 1. MVP < Rain, or 2. Dark not in the top 10.
Pick one poison.
Depending on what criteria are more heavily emphasized, I could see the argument against MVP for only being at the top when the scene was young, pre-kespa, and pretty much only in WOL/lacks the longevity of other players. That's why I'd have MVP toward the bottom of my top 10, personally, despite his dominance at the time.
For Dark, however, there is virtually no rational ranking criteria that could be used that would result in him being excluded while still including players like Rain, TY, and soO. Heck, SoO is #7 on the list and Dark's resume is basically just better SoO.
On February 07 2024 05:54 Nasigil wrote: Well... depends on how no.4 is gonna turn out, you will end up with either: 1. MVP < Rain, or 2. Dark not in the top 10.
Pick one poison.
Depending on what criteria are more heavily emphasized, I could see the argument against MVP for only being at the top when the scene was young, pre-kespa, and pretty much only in WOL/lacks the longevity of other players. That's why I'd have MVP toward the bottom of my top 10, personally, despite his dominance at the time.
For Dark, however, there is virtually no rational ranking criteria that could be used that would result in him being excluded while still including players like Rain, TY, and soO. Heck, SoO is #7 on the list and Dark's resume is basically just better SoO.
I think TY and Dark are sameish - WESG + Katowice and 2 GSL is comparable to 1 SSL, 2 GSL, 1 post COVID DHM, and 1 Blizzcon (druing infestor BL 2.0). Dark has more success in less prestigious premiers than TY, but TY is probably a better team league player. I'd give Dark the nod but think both belong in a Life-less top 10.
I also don't think Rain belongs on the list though.
Really been enjoying the debates generated by this list. MVP vs Dark is in its way almost as interesting as Serral vs Maru in highlighting different criteria and ways of measuring "greatness" or accomplishment.
I don't think I really have a strong opinion in the abstract on either debate. Based on the criteria of this list so far, MVP seems like a more surprising choice to leave out, and I would presume he's #4. Leaving out Dark altogether also seems strange, but also, I don't know, Dark doesn't seem like he's on a totally different level from someone like, say, Reynor, who's also left off for straightforward reasons.
Of course, this could all make sense if the top 4 includes both of them and Serral/Maru double/tie for #1. Resolve both debates at once!
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
On February 07 2024 05:54 Nasigil wrote: Well... depends on how no.4 is gonna turn out, you will end up with either: 1. MVP < Rain, or 2. Dark not in the top 10.
Pick one poison.
Depending on what criteria are more heavily emphasized, I could see the argument against MVP for only being at the top when the scene was young, pre-kespa, and pretty much only in WOL/lacks the longevity of other players. That's why I'd have MVP toward the bottom of my top 10, personally, despite his dominance at the time.
For Dark, however, there is virtually no rational ranking criteria that could be used that would result in him being excluded while still including players like Rain, TY, and soO. Heck, SoO is #7 on the list and Dark's resume is basically just better SoO.
I think TY and Dark are sameish - WESG + Katowice and 2 GSL is comparable to 1 SSL, 2 GSL, 1 post COVID DHM, and 1 Blizzcon (druing infestor BL 2.0). Dark has more success in less prestigious premiers than TY, but TY is probably a better team league player. I'd give Dark the nod but think both belong in a Life-less top 10.
I also don't think Rain belongs on the list though.
Respectfully, I don't think TY is that close to Dark. Excluding the WCS crossfinals, majors, and team leagues, Dark has 7 premier golds, 12 silvers, and 15 bronze to TY's 4 golds, 4 silvers, and 10 bronze. Similar quality events as well.
On February 07 2024 05:54 Nasigil wrote: Well... depends on how no.4 is gonna turn out, you will end up with either: 1. MVP < Rain, or 2. Dark not in the top 10.
Pick one poison.
Depending on what criteria are more heavily emphasized, I could see the argument against MVP for only being at the top when the scene was young, pre-kespa, and pretty much only in WOL/lacks the longevity of other players. That's why I'd have MVP toward the bottom of my top 10, personally, despite his dominance at the time.
For Dark, however, there is virtually no rational ranking criteria that could be used that would result in him being excluded while still including players like Rain, TY, and soO. Heck, SoO is #7 on the list and Dark's resume is basically just better SoO.
I think TY and Dark are sameish - WESG + Katowice and 2 GSL is comparable to 1 SSL, 2 GSL, 1 post COVID DHM, and 1 Blizzcon (druing infestor BL 2.0). Dark has more success in less prestigious premiers than TY, but TY is probably a better team league player. I'd give Dark the nod but think both belong in a Life-less top 10.
I also don't think Rain belongs on the list though.
Only looking at trophies TY and Dark are similar but Dark has way more finals and ro4 appearances, which should also count for something, seeing that soO is in the list
On February 07 2024 05:54 Nasigil wrote: Well... depends on how no.4 is gonna turn out, you will end up with either: 1. MVP < Rain, or 2. Dark not in the top 10.
Pick one poison.
Depending on what criteria are more heavily emphasized, I could see the argument against MVP for only being at the top when the scene was young, pre-kespa, and pretty much only in WOL/lacks the longevity of other players. That's why I'd have MVP toward the bottom of my top 10, personally, despite his dominance at the time.
For Dark, however, there is virtually no rational ranking criteria that could be used that would result in him being excluded while still including players like Rain, TY, and soO. Heck, SoO is #7 on the list and Dark's resume is basically just better SoO.
I think TY and Dark are sameish - WESG + Katowice and 2 GSL is comparable to 1 SSL, 2 GSL, 1 post COVID DHM, and 1 Blizzcon (druing infestor BL 2.0). Dark has more success in less prestigious premiers than TY, but TY is probably a better team league player. I'd give Dark the nod but think both belong in a Life-less top 10.
I also don't think Rain belongs on the list though.
Respectfully, I don't think TY is that close to Dark. Excluding the WCS crossfinals, majors, and team leagues, Dark has 7 premier golds, 12 silvers, and 15 bronze to TY's 4 golds, 4 silvers, and 10 bronze. Similar quality events as well.
Yeah, giving that they had success in the same era as well, there's basically no argument to put TY above Dark. So Dark still has to be in the list because he can't be below TY and Mvp still has to be on the list because he can't be below Rain...
Oh man, I was so sure that Inno was a lock at #4--plot twist! Guessing it's Dark then, but I was also expecting Mvp to be on here somewhere, as he was a truly iconic player in the story of SC2. Don't envy Miz at all the task of writing this, and it's super interesting to contextualize everyone's careers through the span of SC2.
On February 06 2024 20:34 TL.net ESPORTS wrote: The inevitable slump cycle came for INnoVation in the 2015 WCS Global Finals, where he once again dropped out in the RO8, losing to eventual champion <a href="Life" class="zicon" title="[More info on Liquipedia]">Life</a>.
Life was the finalist of 2015. sOs was the winner!
Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
I also thought INno would be top 4 (or even top 3). Seems really likely that #4 is going to be Dark or MVP, but I'd very readily put INno above both of them. Definitely interested to hear how Miz presents it! Also can't wait for the meltdowns to happen when we see whether it's Maru or Serral that gets the nod at the end. The only prediction I feel confident about is Rogue getting locked in at #3.
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
recency/foreigner bias
Ah yes that recency bias that has me argue the case that I’d maybe put Inno ahead of Rogue.
I just think Serral’s consistency across every year, his winning record versus the entire field > Rogue’s extra WC and his Starleagues, all things considered and their best years occupying a similar timespan. Others folks will weigh that differently
On February 07 2024 07:43 Blargh wrote: You did all this to yourself Miz.
I have no one else to blame.
On the bright side, think of the legendary status this article will garner regardless. The post with the most engagement outside of a LR ever? Goat'ed.
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
On February 07 2024 07:43 Blargh wrote: You did all this to yourself Miz.
I have no one else to blame.
On the bright side, think of the legendary status this article will garner regardless. The post with the most engagement outside of a LR ever? Goat'ed.
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though.
Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention
Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era.
recency/foreigner bias
Ah yes that recency bias that has me argue the case that I’d maybe put Inno ahead of Rogue.
I just think Serral’s consistency across every year, his winning record versus the entire field > Rogue’s extra WC and his Starleagues, all things considered and their best years occupying a similar timespan. Others folks will weigh that differently
For me, it really boils down to what I prefer to see in SC2. When I conjure up Rogue, I think of him exploiting a weakness or strategy with relentless, brutal efficiency better than anyone else in history. He almost always came in with a plan and executed it flawlessly.
With Serral, it's usually been the mastery of scouting and deflecting aggression with ease before overwhelming his opponents with sprawling, elegant macro games and battling with huge, teched-up armies. Top 1-2 endgame player ever, with impeccable caster control.
I don't think the difference in their styles is illustrated any better than in that TSL where Rogue dominated Serral in like 10 minutes with all-ins/trickery, versus the Blizzcon where Serral mauled Rogue in macro games, including one of the most iconic ZvZs. Personally, the latter is why I enjoy SC2, so there you have it.
On February 07 2024 08:07 Nakajin wrote: Just for shits and giggles, part of me hope we get Dark/Mvp at 3/4 and that Serral dosen't even get a top 10 spot.
I think the funniest would be if someone like taeja is #4
On February 07 2024 08:07 Nakajin wrote: Just for shits and giggles, part of me hope we get Dark/Mvp at 3/4 and that Serral dosen't even get a top 10 spot.
I think the funniest would be if someone like taeja is #4
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
On February 07 2024 08:07 Nakajin wrote: Just for shits and giggles, part of me hope we get Dark/Mvp at 3/4 and that Serral dosen't even get a top 10 spot.
Given the reverence for star league and bias in favour of proleague, that could happen.
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
Holy shit, if we get Taeja at #4, I'm going to bow down to Miz. I wouldn't put him over Dark but I think there's a decent case for him being over MVP, especially if you weigh the first 2 years of less. Starleague or not, it's insane to basically win almost every tournament you enter for 1.5-2 years. If he had at least 1 GSL win, i think his achievements are very comparable to Life (winning a lot of foreign tournies in that era, but less results in KR).
I'm hyping myself up too much. #4 is going to be Dark. MVP will be off the list mainly because he only dominated for 2 years at the very most really, at the very start of the game where - let's not forget - Terran was OP and maps were heavily Terran favored. Terran had to be continually nerfed, maps had to continually get bigger to allow Zerg to take a 3rd, etc. Anyone remember when marines and hellions outranged and could kite Queens? With active micro you could force Zerg to sac so many lings/queens vs your very few Marines/hellion... (speed upgrade wouldn't be up yet, and once it was you already had 2-4+ hellions + marines)
Yeah... MVP ate well during those days, Nestea had it hard. Remember the Blizzcon invitational? He stomped Nestea because the maps were like, fucking Shattered Temple which was already outdated at that point and widely considered to not be balanced or well designed, and favored Terran because it was hard for Zerg to take a 3rd on that, as well as the huge mains which make dropping as Terran easy, and how you could siege up the front of their natural by placing tanks into the gold third with rocks.
Also don't forget the power of mass Raven/PDD was not even discovered yet until late HotS, where it was still OP despite nerfing PDD from lasting like 2 minutes to 20 secs. Terran wouldn't have had trouble vs BL/Infestor at the end of WoL if Terrans simply knew to mass PDD + viking and spread the vikings a bit vs fungal.
If you had a wish and could have either Dark or MVP's career, whose would you choose? I'd choose Dark. Though if you want those higher audience numbers and fame, then MVP for the emotional factor of "greatness"...
if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one.
On February 07 2024 08:07 Nakajin wrote: Just for shits and giggles, part of me hope we get Dark/Mvp at 3/4 and that Serral dosen't even get a top 10 spot.
I think the funniest would be if someone like taeja is #4
On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote: if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one.
Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc).
I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore.
However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era.
Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote: if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one.
Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc).
I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore.
However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era.
I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2.
There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era.
On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote: if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one.
Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc).
I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore.
However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era.
I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2.
There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era.
Not addressing any other aspect of this, but is the consensus in the BW community that the skill level has gone up even after the collapse of Kespa? That would suprise me
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
Like all great writers Miz knows how to use a red herring
On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote: if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one.
Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc).
I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore.
However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era.
I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2.
There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era.
Not addressing any other aspect of this, but is the consensus in the BW community that the skill level has gone up even after the collapse of Kespa? That would suprise me
There's separation between "skill" category and only kespa era achievements are discussed really (competitive peak)
Consensus is skill level peaked by far mechanically wise in kespa era but optimization, knowledge, meta, army movement and usage of units advanced in current era
However, if the current vs past players played each other, the current player with more knowledge and meta/optimization would probably win most games out of 10, but once the past mechanically ahead player had time to adapt and analyze the current playerd, current players would have no chance.
Pros generally accept competitive/mechanical ability peaked in kespa era and while current era has more knowledge of game, it should not compared due to difference in player pool/competitiveness in kespa era since current players are more of closed off loop. Meta changes much faster in current era tho thanks to sharing of knowledge and free practice environment
People generally only count kespa era achievements when discussing due to that and are treated separately/below past
There's heavy emphasis on separation of knowledge/meta advancements to mechanical ability/driving advancements/competitiveness
On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote: if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one.
Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc).
I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore.
However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era.
I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2.
There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era.
Oh i see, yeah that makes sense. I agree that Innovation at least should be closer to Serral, Innovation really was the GOAT in 2017, when he won that final GSL vs sOs. At the time, the winner of that GSL would basically become the GOAT. sOs would complete his achievements list with a GSL win and put up an argument as GOAT over Inno, or Innovation would continue his dominance with a 3rd GSL win (plus the WCS 2013 S1 win over sOs, soulkey, MVP) and thus put him clearly ahead of the only other person with an argument above him - MVP (since Inno won tons of other stuff and also dominated longer than MVP). So I'm surprised Innovation is only #5 and not #4. Innovation even has an argument to be on par with or above Rogue, since Rogue dominated in a weaker era and when Zerg was a bit OP.
But uh, after reading Pandain's post...
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
Well shit, i guess you figured it out. MVP has to be #4 then unless the wording here is misleading us in some way. It would be really weird to me though for any kind of metric system to put soO above Dark... Dark is just a way better soO. And Innovation is a better MVP.
Also, I know people hype up that "miracle" comeback MVP pulled off vs Inno when it was like, 20 SCVs vs 50 SCVs or something after Inno's hellbat drops, but as a Terran player I knew it wasn't over yet and the casters were too quick to dismiss the game as over. While impressive, you guys have to remember how TvT was back then. Tanks were still really strong without Libs and Interference Matrix, so regardless of the economy difference, as long as you were able to set up a few tanks in front of your 3 bases, you could pretty much have a max economy and it would be very hard to do a straight up attack (no rush to take a 4th since bases don't mine out fast like in LotV). The game of TvT back then was basically, as long as you kept track of the opponent's movement and sieged in time in the right place, then you could survive, and that's what we saw MVP do. The only things you had to watch out for was to have AA in place or be ready to unsiege vs bio/hellbat dropping on your tanks, and for a death drop into your main which you only need a floating barracks and a couple turrets to cover, or sensor tower. I know it might sound like I'm simplifying the MU, but i really think the MU was that straightforward back then. The map was also Akilon wastes, which had its 3rd tucked pretty nicely into a safe spot with a tight choke easily covered by tanks from the main.
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
Like all great writers Miz knows how to use a red herring
There was something missing for me in the articles. I looked up your synonyms for the word "greatness" and at a quick glance, out of 30 synonyms that showed up, I think the articles focus on about 3. Significance, standing, and noteworthiness.
What about brilliance, genius, prowess, talent? Worth, fame, mastery, artistry? Virtuosity, flair, skill, finesse? Power, adaptness, proficiency, calibre? Grandeur, magnificence, impressiveness? Splendour, gloriouness, and majesty?
I feel like only in some few parts of the main body these themes are visible, and usually faintly. There are two short paragraphs on inno being good at macro. For me, what makes inno the greatest of all time, is the inspiration he gave me, and I believe others to try your best. When others were sloppy (think Dark's macro), taking the easy way out (think the players picking and choosing the regions, tournaments they play in based on likelihood to win), succumbing to jealousy, rage, anger (think Serral cursing something under his breath after lost or narrowly won games), losing footing, being complacent and too sure of oneself (think Maru smiling lostly after losing in stupid ways in all those ro4 and ro8 matches, for example forgetting the second depot vs sOs at blizzcon), inno was calmly, respectfully, doing his own thing.
It's a spectator sport. I believe the leaving of such great players like inno, soo, zest, has dramatically decreased the viewing numbers. People just don't want to watch as much. So what that today's players pad the stats much better than a few years ago, if the viewership is low? So what that they are able to execute 3 attacks at once, produce units, and defend at the same time, with rapid fire, custom hotkeys, and increased windows key repeat rate, if that inspires no one to play? If the strategy, preparation, inspiration, genius, brilliance, magnificence, and greatness are not there?
For me, inno is #1. I can relate him to all the synonyms of the word greatness. I can watch him and be inspired. Today's goats, do it for me when it comes to numbers alone, money won, excel tables of win rates. They do not however inspire me to play. They less often than a few years ago inspire me to watch.
As someone said on Zest's thread, how good can you really be when 10-15 "pros", "play". Both in terms of skill, and in terms of greatness as a player.
Arsene Wenger on Zidane: "What I think is Zidane, is like he has been touched by the angels, in his bed when he was a kid, you know. And everything he does is successful. But what I believe as well, what I admire with him, he has kept humility, during his career and after now as well. As a coach he never teaches lessons to people. His feet on the ground. And you have to respect more, even more, the man he is, than all the rest. In football you win and you lose, but the man is always there."
On February 07 2024 03:33 Fango wrote: INno and Serral are probably the only two players that inspire fear from seemingly their most standard macro game.
Guys like Maru, Reynor, or Zest might have their own flair to the game, but INno and Serral at their peaks felt unbeatable when doing the exact same thing as everyone else.
Thats one of the biggest things that matter to me in these discussions. When Inno was in his prime, it felt that everybody feared him like no other. They didnt fear him just because all-ins or something gimmicky, but just his ability to overwhelm his opponents with his god-like macro and mechanics. Its hard to say objectively that he should be in top 3 in the GOAT list, but for me he is up there. He is also been one of the only players in the planet that can put Serral in serious test in macro/mechanics- apartment.
Then became Serral. After 2018 nobody wanted to face him again, maybe except Reynor. He won bo3+ matches against everybody for a year in a row or something ? And he has been practically top-1 contender in every tournament he goes into. Not just top-8, top-5 or top-3. Everyone thinks he should be at least in the finals if not winning. He has winning record against every opponent that he has faced. Thats just insane. He is the GOAT for me. Yeah, of course the era is not as competetive than it was before, but I still think the consistency and skill-level are unparallel (well if Life hadnt...yada yada).
Then there are of course the other two, Rogue and Maru. They are of course worthy in these discussions and prolly either of those will top Miz:s list too. Rogue is an excellent player and the most clutch in biggest tournaments. But still I have hard time getting the GOAT-feelings from him. He is very, very good, but is just so uninspiring and imo lacks the star-quality and the consistency for me. Never gotten the "Wow he is the best"-feeling from him.
Maru on the other hand can play like a god (Korea) or be just good (Outside Korea). He has insane mechanical skills and has the unmatched killer instinct to kill enemies when they are in their weakest. He is very consistent and doesnt seem to have big weaknesses in his game. He has much more star-quality than Rogue, but also performs much worse than him in the International tournaments. I have never seen Maru play as well outside Korea than when doing GSL. Can you really be the GOAT, if you cant win outside your country ?
These are just my biased opinions of course. Big thanks to Miz for making the list. Its very well done and interesting to read all these "journals" from you. It must have been a monumental task and we are very happy to read them
PS. Whats this MVP nonsense at place 4 ? Its clearly Dark, otherwise the list doesnt make any sense. MVP is just bit overrated, although legendary player of course.
On February 07 2024 09:48 Gomas wrote: There was something missing for me in the articles. I looked up your synonyms for the word "greatness" and at a quick glance, out of 30 synonyms that showed up, I think the articles focus on about 3. Significance, standing, and noteworthiness.
What about brilliance, genius, prowess, talent? Worth, fame, mastery, artistry? Virtuosity, flair, skill, finesse? Power, adaptness, proficiency, calibre? Grandeur, magnificence, impressiveness? Splendour, gloriouness, and majesty?
I feel like only in some few parts of the main body these themes are visible, and usually faintly. There are two short paragraphs on inno being good at macro. For me, what makes inno the greatest of all time, is the inspiration he gave me, and I believe others to try your best. When others were sloppy (think Dark's macro), taking the easy way out (think the players picking and choosing the regions, tournaments they play in based on likelihood to win), succumbing to jealousy, rage, anger (think Serral cursing something under his breath after lost or narrowly won games), losing footing, being complacent and too sure of oneself (think Maru smiling lostly after losing in stupid ways in all those ro4 and ro8 matches, for example forgetting the second depot vs sOs at blizzcon), inno was calmly, respectfully, doing his own thing.
It's a spectator sport. I believe the leaving of such great players like inno, soo, zest, has dramatically decreased the viewing numbers. People just don't want to watch as much. So what that today's players pad the stats much better than a few years ago, if the viewership is low? So what that they are able to execute 3 attacks at once, produce units, and defend at the same time, with rapid fire, custom hotkeys, and increased windows key repeat rate, if that inspires no one to play? If the strategy, preparation, inspiration, genius, brilliance, magnificence, and greatness are not there?
For me, inno is #1. I can relate him to all the synonyms of the word greatness. I can watch him and be inspired. Today's goats, do it for me when it comes to numbers alone, money won, excel tables of win rates. They do not however inspire me to play. They less often than a few years ago inspire me to watch.
As someone said on Zest's thread, how good can you really be when 10-15 "pros", "play". Both in terms of skill, and in terms of greatness as a player.
Arsene Wenger on Zidane: "What I think is Zidane, is like he has been touched by the angels, in his bed when he was a kid, you know. And everything he does is successful. But what I believe as well, what I admire with him, he has kept humility, during his career and after now as well. As a coach he never teaches lessons to people. His feet on the ground. And you have to respect more, even more, the man he is, than all the rest. In football you win and you lose, but the man is always there."
For me inno is the greatest! And mvp is second.
Well said, and a lot resonates with me.
One thing I would say is awe and novelty are something of a finite resource in a hobby we’ve been following in some instances for over a decade. It’s why nostalgia is such a potent emotion, we’re not really pining for the thing, we’re pining for those novel feelings it elicited most of the time.
Without a bit of recalibrating we can end up biased to whoever first came along, or trapped in ‘football was better back in the day’ kind of thinking
On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote: if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one.
Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc).
I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore.
However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era.
I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2.
There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era.
Not addressing any other aspect of this, but is the consensus in the BW community that the skill level has gone up even after the collapse of Kespa? That would suprise me
There's separation between "skill" category and only kespa era achievements are discussed really (competitive peak)
Consensus is skill level peaked by far mechanically wise in kespa era but optimization, knowledge, meta, army movement and usage of units advanced in current era
However, if the current vs past players played each other, the current player with more knowledge and meta/optimization would probably win most games out of 10, but once the past mechanically ahead player had time to adapt and analyze the current playerd, current players would have no chance.
Pros generally accept competitive/mechanical ability peaked in kespa era and while current era has more knowledge of game, it should not compared due to difference in player pool/competitiveness in kespa era since current players are more of closed off loop. Meta changes much faster in current era tho thanks to sharing of knowledge and free practice environment
People generally only count kespa era achievements when discussing due to that and are treated separately/below past
There's heavy emphasis on separation of knowledge/meta advancements to mechanical ability/driving advancements/competitiveness
On February 07 2024 09:48 Gomas wrote: There was something missing for me in the articles. I looked up your synonyms for the word "greatness" and at a quick glance, out of 30 synonyms that showed up, I think the articles focus on about 3. Significance, standing, and noteworthiness.
What about brilliance, genius, prowess, talent? Worth, fame, mastery, artistry? Virtuosity, flair, skill, finesse? Power, adaptness, proficiency, calibre? Grandeur, magnificence, impressiveness? Splendour, gloriouness, and majesty?
I feel like only in some few parts of the main body these themes are visible, and usually faintly. There are two short paragraphs on inno being good at macro. For me, what makes inno the greatest of all time, is the inspiration he gave me, and I believe others to try your best. When others were sloppy (think Dark's macro), taking the easy way out (think the players picking and choosing the regions, tournaments they play in based on likelihood to win), succumbing to jealousy, rage, anger (think Serral cursing something under his breath after lost or narrowly won games), losing footing, being complacent and too sure of oneself (think Maru smiling lostly after losing in stupid ways in all those ro4 and ro8 matches, for example forgetting the second depot vs sOs at blizzcon), inno was calmly, respectfully, doing his own thing.
It's a spectator sport. I believe the leaving of such great players like inno, soo, zest, has dramatically decreased the viewing numbers. People just don't want to watch as much. So what that today's players pad the stats much better than a few years ago, if the viewership is low? So what that they are able to execute 3 attacks at once, produce units, and defend at the same time, with rapid fire, custom hotkeys, and increased windows key repeat rate, if that inspires no one to play? If the strategy, preparation, inspiration, genius, brilliance, magnificence, and greatness are not there?
For me, inno is #1. I can relate him to all the synonyms of the word greatness. I can watch him and be inspired. Today's goats, do it for me when it comes to numbers alone, money won, excel tables of win rates. They do not however inspire me to play. They less often than a few years ago inspire me to watch.
As someone said on Zest's thread, how good can you really be when 10-15 "pros", "play". Both in terms of skill, and in terms of greatness as a player.
Arsene Wenger on Zidane: "What I think is Zidane, is like he has been touched by the angels, in his bed when he was a kid, you know. And everything he does is successful. But what I believe as well, what I admire with him, he has kept humility, during his career and after now as well. As a coach he never teaches lessons to people. His feet on the ground. And you have to respect more, even more, the man he is, than all the rest. In football you win and you lose, but the man is always there."
For me inno is the greatest! And mvp is second.
While I would agree that trophies and results alone aren't everything about "greatness" and that hard to quantify things as "calibre" or "grandeur" should definetly play a big role, I think you are also cutting some things short. First of all: It is easier to be creative when the overall skill-level is lower and the game is newer. Because obviously there are more things to be found when...well, they are not found yet. My first thought about that was about Handball and the Kempa-trick. Don't want to go too deep into it, but for those interested just look it up on Youtube. It is a really impressive and cool maneuver you can do, looks amazing. But it was found 30-40 years ago or something like that. Todays player don't come up with cool tricks like that - because there are in the end only so many ways you can throw a ball at a goal. Does that mean todays players are less creative?
Same works for RTS. When the game is new, inventing a tower rush looks amazingly creative. But almost 15 years into the game, the last big Addon being 6-7 years ago...you can't find groundbreaking things like that. Todays innovation are far more subtle and about slight optimizations and they usually don't look as cool as the earlier stuff - but you could argue it is harder to be creative today than in any other moment in SC2 history. I also have the feeling that in most RTS the GOAT(-contenders) are usually not the ones that come up with the groundbreaking ideas, but they are the ones that are best at executing it.
As for your personal comparisons between Inno and the rest: This feels like an extreme bias. Are you suggesting Innovation never did something stupid or made a weird mistake? And Serral showing some emotions (which you really picked a weird example for...) isn't reflecting on anything, neither good nor bad. Especially when you then pick Zidane as an example for being a GOAT, a guy who also got very famous for headbutting an opponent...did that take away anything from his status?
The viewership thing also has nothing to do with the playerbase. Sorry, but if the "Kespa era" was so awe-inspiring, why exactly did Proleague shutdown then? You say "todays players" don't inspire to play the game (which is really subjective), but if you want to blame low-viewer numbers on players, I would say you have to blame Innovation and co. for that - it was their "generation" that sunk the ship. In reality, SC2 just wasn't as exciting for people to watch than e.g. LoL or DotA2. Why that is is a topic for another discussion (I personally think people just enjoy team games more than solo games), but it clearly is NOT the fault of todays top pros because they are "not awe-inspiring" enough.
Lastly, if we talk about "grandeur", I think Serral would be a perfect example for that. Because prime Serral looks just invincible, like the closest a legit player has ever come to look like he cheats. But that is not quantifiable and also might just be me being a Zerg enjoyer - which should show you how subjective it is. On the other hand, I never got impressed with marine-splitting or doom-dropping. In fact, seeing Terrans just pick up their stuff and drop shit into the opponents base while the Protoss army awkwardly tries to catch up only ever gave me a feeling of "man, I really don't want to play this game"...but a terran enjoyer might see that completly different.
And just to clarify: Don't hating on Innovation here. He is literally the only terran player I ever could stand to watch
On February 07 2024 09:48 Gomas wrote: There was something missing for me in the articles. I looked up your synonyms for the word "greatness" and at a quick glance, out of 30 synonyms that showed up, I think the articles focus on about 3. Significance, standing, and noteworthiness.
What about brilliance, genius, prowess, talent? Worth, fame, mastery, artistry? Virtuosity, flair, skill, finesse? Power, adaptness, proficiency, calibre? Grandeur, magnificence, impressiveness? Splendour, gloriouness, and majesty?
I feel like only in some few parts of the main body these themes are visible, and usually faintly. There are two short paragraphs on inno being good at macro. For me, what makes inno the greatest of all time, is the inspiration he gave me, and I believe others to try your best. When others were sloppy (think Dark's macro), taking the easy way out (think the players picking and choosing the regions, tournaments they play in based on likelihood to win), succumbing to jealousy, rage, anger (think Serral cursing something under his breath after lost or narrowly won games), losing footing, being complacent and too sure of oneself (think Maru smiling lostly after losing in stupid ways in all those ro4 and ro8 matches, for example forgetting the second depot vs sOs at blizzcon), inno was calmly, respectfully, doing his own thing.
It's a spectator sport. I believe the leaving of such great players like inno, soo, zest, has dramatically decreased the viewing numbers. People just don't want to watch as much. So what that today's players pad the stats much better than a few years ago, if the viewership is low? So what that they are able to execute 3 attacks at once, produce units, and defend at the same time, with rapid fire, custom hotkeys, and increased windows key repeat rate, if that inspires no one to play? If the strategy, preparation, inspiration, genius, brilliance, magnificence, and greatness are not there?
For me, inno is #1. I can relate him to all the synonyms of the word greatness. I can watch him and be inspired. Today's goats, do it for me when it comes to numbers alone, money won, excel tables of win rates. They do not however inspire me to play. They less often than a few years ago inspire me to watch.
As someone said on Zest's thread, how good can you really be when 10-15 "pros", "play". Both in terms of skill, and in terms of greatness as a player.
Arsene Wenger on Zidane: "What I think is Zidane, is like he has been touched by the angels, in his bed when he was a kid, you know. And everything he does is successful. But what I believe as well, what I admire with him, he has kept humility, during his career and after now as well. As a coach he never teaches lessons to people. His feet on the ground. And you have to respect more, even more, the man he is, than all the rest. In football you win and you lose, but the man is always there."
For me inno is the greatest! And mvp is second.
Well said, and a lot resonates with me.
One thing I would say is awe and novelty are something of a finite resource in a hobby we’ve been following in some instances for over a decade. It’s why nostalgia is such a potent emotion, we’re not really pining for the thing, we’re pining for those novel feelings it elicited most of the time.
Without a bit of recalibrating we can end up biased to whoever first came along, or trapped in ‘football was better back in the day’ kind of thinking
That's why Scarlett is the greatest foreigner of all time :D
I simply disagree with the notion that "skill level peaked at Kespa era".
Just sharing some personal experience. I started watching SC2 pro tournaments since 2011 and gradually stopped around 2016-2017 due to personal interests shifted to other games. My interest in SC2 was revitalized in 2023 by Oliveira's miracle run and since then I've spent months watching most of the important games/series from 2017-2022 that I missed, trying to catch up with current scene.
I think just in terms of raw mechanical skills, Serral/Maru/Reynor/Clem/Dark at their peak forms in last 4-5 years are simply the best in the history of the game. I remember my jaws was on the floor when I watched almost any TvZ series between these players and thinking to myself "What the hell?I can't believe Starcraft II has evolved to this kind of skill level. Any games longer than 20mins here would be top of TL's best game of the year list back then." The high level of macro, micro and multitasking these players displayed especially in those late game matches are unlike anything I've ever seen.
When I go back and watch the old classic series in my memory from Kespa years (for example, Taeja vs soO, Innovation vs Life, Dark vs Byun, etc), I started to notice all kinds of small mistakes, sloppy plays, careless maneuvers, imperfection in micro/macro, cluelessness in late game, etc, so much more than the recent players. I was however often pleasantly surprised by how interesting and diverse the meta strategies could be back then.
I agree that the overall talent pool of SC2 has been drying up since 2018, but I believe the absolute top3-5 players are only getting better over the years. Drop current Serral back into any era and he will still dominate after some time of practice and adaptation.
Maru and Serral at their peak forms are two players that I consider to be reaching the verge of theoretically perfect SC2 player. Macroµ, strategic mind&raw skills, early game/late game, offense&defense, they have it all and shows no noticeable weakness. Only player that showed flashes of this kind of perfection from earlier era was Life. Shamed at how his career turned out.
On February 06 2024 21:12 Durnuu wrote: Dark didn't make the cut, you can quote me on this
I will quote you on it, but you are dead wrong.
When Dark is the next name listed, I’ll bring up this terrible take for ya. Don’t worry.
Anyone think Reynor should be top 10? World Champion, long period of being a top 3 player in the world. I would have put him at 9/10.
Nah, he hit his stride just a bit too late for me. Probably somewhere in the top 15/20.
Not his fault but when Serral/Rogue were first consistently winning big guys like TY, Stats, Classic were all not just active, but in good shape too. Serral lost a WESG in what proved Innovation’s last big hurrah.
Rogue and Inno are gone, Classic, TY and Stats were absent for periods with military and so far only Classic has really shown much. And the only player to really step up to that championship calibre is Clem, it doesn’t quite compensate.
The scene didn’t just drop off a complete cliff in the post-Kespa era, but there is a gradual decline. By 2017/18 the field is a little thinner, but there’s still enough championship calibre players, by 2020 a little thinner, and by 2023 and Reynor’s Gamer’s 8 it’s looking pretty thin indeed. Hey I’m still hyped for Katowice coming up, but the GOAT angle isn’t really going to be a factor in my thinking watching. I don’t think Serral winning will bump him above Maru, or Maru winning will make him the undisputed GOAT, or Reynor breaks into the top 10 with another.
Hey I’m the (second, don’t @ me) biggest Trap fan around and think he’s hugely underrated having carried Toss on his back for about 2 years, but I still would struggle to stick him in the top 10 too.
So long as people stop saying Parting was better I’ll be a happy man :p
On February 06 2024 21:12 Durnuu wrote: Dark didn't make the cut, you can quote me on this
I will quote you on it, but you are dead wrong.
When Dark is the next name listed, I’ll bring up this terrible take for ya. Don’t worry.
Anyone think Reynor should be top 10? World Champion, long period of being a top 3 player in the world. I would have put him at 9/10.
Nah, he hit his stride just a bit too late for me. Probably somewhere in the top 15/20.
Not his fault but when Serral/Rogue were first consistently winning big guys like TY, Stats, Classic were all not just active, but in good shape too. Serral lost a WESG in what proved Innovation’s last big hurrah.
Rogue and Inno are gone, Classic, TY and Stats were absent for periods with military and so far only Classic has really shown much. And the only player to really step up to that championship calibre is Clem, it doesn’t quite compensate.
The scene didn’t just drop off a complete cliff in the post-Kespa era, but there is a gradual decline. By 2017/18 the field is a little thinner, but there’s still enough championship calibre players, by 2020 a little thinner, and by 2023 and Reynor’s Gamer’s 8 it’s looking pretty thin indeed. Hey I’m still hyped for Katowice coming up, but the GOAT angle isn’t really going to be a factor in my thinking watching. I don’t think Serral winning will bump him above Maru, or Maru winning will make him the undisputed GOAT, or Reynor breaks into the top 10 with another.
Hey I’m the (second, don’t @ me) biggest Trap fan around and think he’s hugely underrated having carried Toss on his back for about 2 years, but I still would struggle to stick him in the top 10 too.
So long as people stop saying Parting was better I’ll be a happy man :p
Yeah it's pretty unfortunate, but i didn't even realize that Reynor technically has 2 WC. Which would be pretty huge, but didn't feel huge at all even though I knew that he did... whereas sOs winning 3 WC is absolutely ridiculous for example, because they happened during the most competitive years of SC2, and also past the early chaoticness of WoL. I would probably put Reynor in the top 15-20 as well, but no higher than ~15. I would put players like Taeja, Stats, MVP/Dark, MC above him (I'm listing players who haven't made this Top 10). Reynor is around or slightly below players like MMA/Polt/Nestea for me.
Not to discredit Reynor's wins, but in terms of "greatness", I think balance should also be kept into account, Zerg has been OP for ~2 years around 2018-2020 (not trying to whine, but referencing what top players have said and what the balance patches have tried to address), and before/after that zerg is probably still the strongest race at the top top level. Maybe only now in the last year with the last 1-2 balance patches has Zerg maybe finally become balanced.
I definitely do think Trap is underrated and often forgotten, considering how consistent he was with Protoss, the most unforgiving and inconsistent race, even winning a few premiere tournaments (including GSL Super, and ESL/DH events where foreigner players like Serral competed), especially when considering how Protoss has been the weakest race and especially especially when considering how imba PvZ was mid-LotV. Like heck, can you imagine ANY protoss beating Serral in a Bo7? It sounds pretty impossible, but Trap did it. With Protoss.
Also, considering who Trap lost to when he failed to win GSL Code S's: often Maru/Rogue/Dark. These are very good losses for him, and if they weren't around he could have won at least 1 Code S to round out his career.
For me, I do think the coming IEM and Esport World Cup will have an impact in the GOAT debate depending on who win them. Reynor already fulfilled his share of performance in WC-level tournament with 2 wins and 2 2nd place, the issue for is the lack of accomplishment in the other premiere tournaments. Other than Gamers8 victory, his best result in 2023 is Ro4 in ESL Summer, and his latest premiere victory was HSC22, and before that was the DH Summer 2021. Couple that with how Reynor often say that hes not committing his all into the game all the time, taking break or doing something else, is not GOAT-material imo but we cant deny the accomplishment.
There is certain parallel between Reynor - Serral and Maru - Rogue where both Reynor and Rogue shows that they are much better than usual self at WC-title event but not as consistently great in other tournaments. While Maru and Serral are more consistent overall, but having trouble at getting the job done at such events. And in both cases, they happened to be teammates so they would practice against each other a lot, knowing each other style and strategy and are pretty even head-to-head (although Reynor record against Serral hasnt been great for the last 2 years with 1-7 in matches and 4-20 in games). So yes, Reynor can make his case for GOAT, at the moment I would give him somewhere between 11-13 rank.
On February 07 2024 13:15 Nasigil wrote: I simply disagree with the notion that "skill level peaked at Kespa era".
Just sharing some personal experience. I started watching SC2 pro tournaments since 2011 and gradually stopped around 2016-2017 due to personal interests shifted to other games. My interest in SC2 was revitalized in 2023 by Oliveira's miracle run and since then I've spent months watching most of the important games/series from 2017-2022 that I missed, trying to catch up with current scene.
I think just in terms of raw mechanical skills, Serral/Maru/Reynor/Clem/Dark at their peak forms in last 4-5 years are simply the best in the history of the game. I remember my jaws was on the floor when I watched almost any TvZ series between these players and thinking to myself "What the hell?I can't believe Starcraft II has evolved to this kind of skill level. Any games longer than 20mins here would be top of TL's best game of the year list back then." The high level of macro, micro and multitasking these players displayed especially in those late game matches are unlike anything I've ever seen.
When I go back and watch the old classic series in my memory from Kespa years (for example, Taeja vs soO, Innovation vs Life, Dark vs Byun, etc), I started to notice all kinds of small mistakes, sloppy plays, careless maneuvers, imperfection in micro/macro, cluelessness in late game, etc, so much more than the recent players. I was however often pleasantly surprised by how interesting and diverse the meta strategies could be back then.
I agree that the overall talent pool of SC2 has been drying up since 2018, but I believe the absolute top3-5 players are only getting better over the years. Drop current Serral back into any era and he will still dominate after some time of practice and adaptation.
Maru and Serral at their peak forms are two players that I consider to be reaching the verge of theoretically perfect SC2 player. Macroµ, strategic mind&raw skills, early game/late game, offense&defense, they have it all and shows no noticeable weakness. Only player that showed flashes of this kind of perfection from earlier era was Life. Shamed at how his career turned out.
I don't think players ever got worse, but that's just because the scene and performance always builds off of itself. I'm sure if you teleported any of the top 10 players right now back in time, they'd probably wreck 2013 players. It only makes sense to evaluate someone relative to their peers at the time. I do not buy that the players are "more talented" than before, even if they are able to do more than what players back then were. How does one really measure "talent" other than results? It's not like SC2 is a purely quantitative and objective game.
On February 07 2024 14:22 tigera6 wrote: For me, I do think the coming IEM and Esport World Cup will have an impact in the GOAT debate depending on who win them. Reynor already fulfilled his share of performance in WC-level tournament with 2 wins and 2 2nd place, the issue for is the lack of accomplishment in the other premiere tournaments. Other than Gamers8 victory, his best result in 2023 is Ro4 in ESL Summer, and his latest premiere victory was HSC22, and before that was the DH Summer 2021. Couple that with how Reynor often say that hes not committing his all into the game all the time, taking break or doing something else, is not GOAT-material imo but we cant deny the accomplishment.
There is certain parallel between Reynor - Serral and Maru - Rogue where both Reynor and Rogue shows that they are much better than usual self at WC-title event but not as consistently great in other tournaments. While Maru and Serral are more consistent overall, but having trouble at getting the job done at such events. And in both cases, they happened to be teammates so they would practice against each other a lot, knowing each other style and strategy and are pretty even head-to-head (although Reynor record against Serral hasnt been great for the last 2 years with 1-7 in matches and 4-20 in games). So yes, Reynor can make his case for GOAT, at the moment I would give him somewhere between 11-13 rank.
Oh dang, i didn't realize he also had 2 2nd places at WC, that's pretty crazy. If he does win a 3rd WC, I don't think he has a case for #1 still, but it would move him from 15-17 to 11-12 to me, a few spots below sOs who i think is 8-10.
Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
On February 07 2024 09:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Also, I know people hype up that "miracle" comeback MVP pulled off vs Inno when it was like, 20 SCVs vs 50 SCVs or something after Inno's hellbat drops, but as a Terran player I knew it wasn't over yet and the casters were too quick to dismiss the game as over.
It was 30 to 9, and INnoVation was up 40 supply. Mvp was the only person who could have survived, and he did it by playing literally 100% perfectly. I cannot possibly stress enough how perfect his decision making was in that game.
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I really cannot comprehend anyone not agreeing with this.
2) Indeedy, and in a way the eSF times didn’t quite. There were lots of different names winning things in the latter, but to me that was as much down to a still-volatile game, and the scene taking a while to settle too. Mvp was clearly the dog’s bollocks and a cut above, even if he didn’t just win everything, even before guys like DRG and MMA emerged who were of a similar class. Whereas by the peak Kespa era you had 6/7 Mvps, real S class players, and a ton of A tier players who could take out anyone. If that makes sense.
After a decent night of sleep, I actually can't fathom why INno is only #5. Personally, I would have him ahead of Mvp and/or Dark 100%, and probably ahead of at least one of Serral/Rogue. I would put him top 3 and mayybe 2nd, but I can see how someone would put him behind Serral / Rogue if not taking too much into account: balance, and succeeding after kespa era / competitive peak (both huge weaknesses of Serral/Rogue resumes) -> then #4. #5 seems incredibly low for a player that was able to best Serral in WESG far after his prime. If INno was a bit younger I can't even imagine how dominant he would have been. In his prime years, he indeed that aura of pure dominance through "boring" doing the same stuff perfectly in your face over and over
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) Yes I agree, but I think that applies only to a select few players and is the reason the tournament winners are always the same. I don't think however someone like Crrator (who reached the GSL finals in 2022) is more skilled than Zest in 2016. So the level of the average player one has to beat to win a tournament is lower than in 2013-2016, but the level of the very best players they have to beat is higher.
Even someone like Dark imo has declined mechanically compared to 5 years ago, and it's why he nowadays mostly relies on trickery to keep up with Serral/Clem/Mari
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now.
Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like.
Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run.
I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle.
The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now.
Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like.
Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run.
I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle.
The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
Generally you're right, but I don't think the knowledge builds over time factor applies to sc2 that much because the game has drastically changed over the years and much of the knowledge built in the last few years would be completely worthless in HotS for example. So even in terms of 'pure' skill level making a comparison is hard, the only thing that can be really compared is mechanics. And in that case I think Serral, Clem and Reynor are probably faster than players in 2015 (going by the eye-test) but as I already said the average player like Creator or Ragnarok is not imo.
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now.
Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like.
Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run.
I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle.
The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
I get the less stacked pool nowadays... But isnt also the declining prize pool a sort of context grinder in itself? Had any of the old juggernauts - with the exception of Rain, maybe - been as succesful as Serral has been since 2018, they surely would have continued. The ones that have left the game were the A tier mostly, no the S tier. So, i think that those that left would not have changed the tourney champions significantly. One Sniper case here there would have happened. But if you look at the sheer volume of premier tourneys Maru and Serral have won, and objectively look at their skill - compared even to lesser S tier that have continued - you just cant expect they would have dropped that many tourneys to matter to a GOAT list, i think. Pure speculation of course, but its how I honestly feel.
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now.
Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like.
Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run.
I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle.
The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
Generally you're right, but I don't think the knowledge builds over time factor applies to sc2 that much because the game has drastically changed over the years and much of the knowledge built in the last few years would be completely worthless in HotS for example. So even in terms of 'pure' skill level making a comparison is hard, the only thing that can be really compared is mechanics. And in that case I think Serral, Clem and Reynor are probably faster than players in 2015 (going by the eye-test) but as I already said the average player like Creator or Ragnarok might not even be.
While balance changes are a big deal, and obviously LotV flipped the whole economy and macro stuff for early game on its head, I think you underestimate how good players like Serral and Maru have gotten at "reading" a game. They have figured out the exact time to send in the scout to figure out if it's build A or build B. They know based on the presence and timing of the opponent's scout whether it's build C or build D. They've also had far more people in between figuring out exactly how to defend most cheeses, and also how to be successful at cheese even if your opponent knows how to defend it. A time travelling Serral, given a few days to adjust to HotS, would absolutely crush Life, because earlygame ZvZ has just been figured out. He'd transition into roach wars with more drones, more map control and better upgrades. Sure, no doubt some weeks after that, the Kespa players would pick up on all his tricks. I don't think Serral is so inherently good that he does anything Kespa players were incapable of. But he has the benefit of standing on the shoulders of giants. And those giants have made the "skill ceiling" far higher than it was in 2014-16 (which in turn was already far higher than it was in 2011).
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now.
Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like.
Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run.
I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle.
The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
Generally you're right, but I don't think the knowledge builds over time factor applies to sc2 that much because the game has drastically changed over the years and much of the knowledge built in the last few years would be completely worthless in HotS for example. So even in terms of 'pure' skill level making a comparison is hard, the only thing that can be really compared is mechanics. And in that case I think Serral, Clem and Reynor are probably faster than players in 2015 (going by the eye-test) but as I already said the average player like Creator or Ragnarok might not even be.
I mean yeah but knowledge feeds into mechanics even if it’s small optimisations.
Not saying it’s a giant thing but Serral mouse scrolls, which basically keeps his cursor centred at huge times, rather than screen scrolling and having to bounce from the edge of the screen back to the centre.
Small thing sure, but it’s generally more efficient. There are certain times where screen scrolling is more beneficial and he employs it there.
It’s an illustrative example and not the source of Serral’s power of course, but Kespa players screen scrolled because hey it’s long been the way, and it’s good enough. But Serral’s method is just that little bit more efficient, and though marginal is a considered optimisation
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now.
Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like.
Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run.
I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle.
The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
Generally you're right, but I don't think the knowledge builds over time factor applies to sc2 that much because the game has drastically changed over the years and much of the knowledge built in the last few years would be completely worthless in HotS for example. So even in terms of 'pure' skill level making a comparison is hard, the only thing that can be really compared is mechanics. And in that case I think Serral, Clem and Reynor are probably faster than players in 2015 (going by the eye-test) but as I already said the average player like Creator or Ragnarok might not even be.
While balance changes are a big deal, and obviously LotV flipped the whole economy and macro stuff for early game on its head, I think you underestimate how good players like Serral and Maru have gotten at "reading" a game. They have figured out the exact time to send in the scout to figure out if it's build A or build B. They know based on the presence and timing of the opponent's scout whether it's build C or build D. They've also had far more people in between figuring out exactly how to defend most cheeses, and also how to be successful at cheese even if your opponent knows how to defend it. A time travelling Serral, given a few days to adjust to HotS, would absolutely crush Life, because earlygame ZvZ has just been figured out. He'd transition into roach wars with more drones, more map control and better upgrades. Sure, no doubt some weeks after that, the Kespa players would pick up on all his tricks. I don't think Serral is so inherently good that he does anything Kespa players were incapable of. But he has the benefit of standing on the shoulders of giants. And those giants have made the "skill ceiling" far higher than it was in 2014-16 (which in turn was already far higher than it was in 2011).
Wasn't ZvZ early game completely different with the 6 worker start? All respects to Serral but I don't think he would be capable of adjusting all his builds and responses to a completely new economy in a couple days and perfect it enough to beat Life
On February 07 2024 15:48 Waxangel wrote: Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's
1) I honestly find it a little bit wild, that a lot of people seem to agree on this. Are we talking about the very, very top? Like top 3 to 5 players? In that case, this might very well be true. Besides that, real new talent has not been injected into the scene into the scene for the last 5(?) years. In the mid 2010s you maybe had 30 to 40 A-Tier players, now you have like 5 to 10. And on top of that, more or less everyone is 5 years older now, having already played a long time. These players by all accounts should deteriorate in their mechanics. I find it very hard to believe, that the skill level in the top 50 or so is greater than it was a few years ago. Half of the players still in Code S today were around back then, but had no impact whatsoever. Are there even 50 pro players still around?
Maybe I am not thinking about this in the same way you guys do. But I am extremely certain that winning Premium level competitions was way harder a few years back, but that might not contradict the point yo were making in the first place. As it is not the same thing.
The skill level is higher, at the very top, although the level of competition is less, and the rate of skill level increase is less than in that reality where SC2 continued at peak Kespa years thru now.
Time travelling 2023 Serral is just going to smack 2015/16 players around. But, on the flipside 2023 Serral has far fewer players in his era that are a threat to him. It’s easier to be making Ro8 (and usually higher) every single tournament when there’s only a handful of players left who can beat you if you’re in form. I mean I say Serral just as an example but you could swap in Maru, or whoever if you like.
Serral is better at StarCraft, but there’s just fewer and fewer people around of a relative skill level. So the competition is way lessened. There’s only a handful of players who you’d bet on as likely to win a tournament. Whereas way back you’d have maybe 10 you could conceivably bet on sensibly, and a few other dark horses who might make a run.
I am (technically) a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, I’ve got 50 years+ of other folks figuring things out, resources to access etc. And since my ‘peak’ there have been a bunch of wizards coming out with new techniques I haven’t had the time to even begin to tackle.
The skill level builds and builds over time, humans optimise things and knowledge spreads. As per my example I have 100% certainty that if I grew up as a contemporary of Hendrix he would smoke me, and if he was born in 89 like me, we got exposed to the same influences he would absolutely smoke me.
I get the less stacked pool nowadays... But isnt also the declining prize pool a sort of context grinder in itself? Had any of the old juggernauts - with the exception of Rain, maybe - been as succesful as Serral has been since 2018, they surely would have continued. The ones that have left the game were the A tier mostly, no the S tier. So, i think that those that left would not have changed the tourney champions significantly. One Sniper case here there would have happened. But if you look at the sheer volume of premier tourneys Maru and Serral have won, and objectively look at their skill - compared even to lesser S tier that have continued - you just cant expect they would have dropped that many tourneys to matter to a GOAT list, i think. Pure speculation of course, but its how I honestly feel.
I think this is a fair point. In a declining scene with fewer and fewer top dogs, it would seem an ideal environment to make hay while the sun shines, I’ve pondered it myself.
I think it stems from a lack of new blood, that can really step up. The S class players that remain are just burned out at this point, their latent skill level is sufficient that they’re still winning things of course. And the tier down just aren’t good enough that even pushing 100% they can’t bridge the gap.
A Rag, or a Bunny are still absolutely excellent players, but they just can’t make that step up to topple a Maru or a Dark that aren’t at their absolute peak.
So you’re kind of left with a smattering of S class players who have earned 100k-millions of dollars already and maybe aren’t as hungry as in their youth, but their latent skill is still too much for others to bridge
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
On February 07 2024 17:34 Charoisaur wrote: Even someone like Dark imo has declined mechanically compared to 5 years ago, and it's why he nowadays mostly relies on trickery to keep up with Serral/Clem/Mari
No need to say imo, he admits as much himself in the interview tasteless did with him recently, the one celebrating Dark joining Talon. He tells fans to cheer for him and watch his games, but to watch some of his older games first, since he's more proud of them haha
I see that Mizen's quieter in the discussions, taking bets on whether he's abstaining from participating for fear of the ulcer or whether he's incapacitated from already having an ulcer
On February 07 2024 17:34 Charoisaur wrote: Even someone like Dark imo has declined mechanically compared to 5 years ago, and it's why he nowadays mostly relies on trickery to keep up with Serral/Clem/Mari
No need to say imo, he admits as much himself in the interview tasteless did with him recently, the one celebrating Dark joining Talon. He tells fans to cheer for him and watch his games, but to watch some of his older games first, since he's more proud of them haha
I see that Mizen's quieter in the discussions, taking bets on whether he's abstaining from participating for fear of the ulcer or whether he's incapacitated from already having an ulcer
My bet is Mizen will never finish the list. Just leave it standing like it is now and keep us bashing each others heads in for the last 4 spots lol
On February 07 2024 17:34 Charoisaur wrote: Even someone like Dark imo has declined mechanically compared to 5 years ago, and it's why he nowadays mostly relies on trickery to keep up with Serral/Clem/Mari
No need to say imo, he admits as much himself in the interview tasteless did with him recently, the one celebrating Dark joining Talon. He tells fans to cheer for him and watch his games, but to watch some of his older games first, since he's more proud of them haha
I see that Mizen's quieter in the discussions, taking bets on whether he's abstaining from participating for fear of the ulcer or whether he's incapacitated from already having an ulcer
When I figure out how to sleep and write at the same time, you'll be the first to know.
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
Confirmed that there are no Protoss in the top 4! Imba imba imba!
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
Confirmed that there are no Protoss in the top 4! Imba imba imba!
It's a bummer that it never worked out for VINES. Sadly he wasn't able to secure a top four spot.
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I don't necessarily agree with Rain as low as #21/22, but top 15 instead of #10 could fit perfectly. Given stuchiu previous list that put him at #10 and more recent / LotV names, we could have: (for funsies)
#22 -> Rain #21 -> NesTea (#7 on stuchiu list) #20 -> MMA (#6 on stuchiu list) #19 -> Polt (#5) #18 -> MC (#4) #17 -> Taeja (#3) #16 -> Classic Life (#2) the overrated zerg match-fixer
Imo mvp belongs in top 10, so I wouldn't put him there, but having #7 to #2 from original stuchiu list as #21 to #16 isn't that far fetched
Then: #15 -> Trap (could be swapped with MC...) #14 -> herO #13 -> ByuN (alongside TY and now Oliveira, one of the only players to manage to win a WC with terran in LotV, huge feat imho) #12 -> Reynor: mostly successful when zerg was very strong, hit and miss performances, not as consistent / good as Serral #11 -> Stats (would have beaten sOs if he didn't lose those WC finals imo, he was overall stronger during LotV) #10 -> Dark (could be swapped with soO imo)
This list seems reasonable from #22 to #10, with Rain at #22.
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood:
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins)
Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell:
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
Yeah, Life 100% matchfixed, he literally confessed to the police and there was a bunch of other corroborating evidence, like texts and stuff. IIRC it got found out because the police were investigating an illegal gambling ring (almost all gambling is illegal in Korea, except horse racing for some reason?) and they happened to stumble upon evidence that some gamblers were rigging SC2 matches so that they could make money off of betting on the games.
Life was taking money from some of these guys to intentionally lose games. There was one particularly notorious example in Proleague in 2015, where Life was playing a ZvZ on the 3player map Merry Go Round. I want to say it was vs Solar. There are two different options for where Life's opponent could have spawned. Life sends out his first overlord and happens to send it to the correct base. The overlord sees the very edge of the creep from Solar's main base, and then it turns away to go scout the other, empty spawn position. I literally don't think most gold leaguers would make that mistake. A whole minute later, Life pretends to have only now noticed that his overlord saw the creep of Solar's main.
I am sure that Life was intending to send the overlord just short of where it could see the creep or not, and then turn it away. That way he could give himself a plausible disadvantage in the game. Instead he screwed it up, and failed to roll with his screwup, thereby creating the most suspicious game EVER.
I can't find the VOD of this game. I think Kespa had it deleted. But I distinctly remember watching this game in 2015 and I remember everyone, from TL posters to casters, being absolutely astonished at what we were seeing. I remember thinking that the casters had to be wondering about matchfixing as they were watching that game.
Accused lol. It was pretty clear cut What next? SaviOr was "accused"? Crocus was just watching sports games and handing money to sparkyz players as a charitable allowance?
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
Well, thanks for spoiling that Inca isn't #4. Also I'm glad to hear it sounds like you had Stats/Classic for example in contention for #10 and aren't far behind Rain, i feel all the protoss are pretty close to each other.
On February 07 2024 21:50 Poopi wrote:
This list seems reasonable from #22 to #10, with Rain at #22.
Fully agree that a player like Rain could be around #20. There are a LOT of great players. Though I wouldn't put players like Reynor and Trap that much higher (if at all) than players like Nestea and especially Taeja. I know the lists have different writers but it's kinda crazy how Taeja went from being a top GOAT contender to being seemingly forgotten or delgated to #15-20 on most people's lists, mainly cus he hasn't won a Starleague.
And Nestea and MC used to be above Zest but are now nowhere in most people's top 12s. (Yeah I know Zest won a couple more tournies and got a couple more 2nds at WCs, so it makes sense that he's higher now, and Nestea especially was from an older era, but I still think he's around #15-20 and MC a little higher.)
Even if early WoL years are weird, Nestea overcame that weirdness to be stupidly consistent and dominant for 1-1.5 years, winning 3 GSLs, his reign was only ended by MVP who is of a very similar calibre + Show Spoiler +
and Terran was overtuned and more fully designed than Protoss/Zerg and maps favored Terran back then
so it's not like those are bad losses). The only thing keeping Nestea's career from being closer to MVP's or MC's despite the similar level of dominance and skill level, is that Nestea simply didn't try to travel or play in any foreign tournaments (until towards the very end of his career, where his skill was already falling), so he didn't rack up as many results as MVP. So, if we're not punishing Serral that much for not trying a Starleague, we shouldn't punish Nestea that much for not trying non-KR tournaments, especially when GSL was the highest level of competition at the time (and top foreigners were competing in GSL).
I just think it's weird that these days people place MVP so far apart from Nestea, when Nestea MC MVP were quite comparable (#7 #4 #1 on stuchiu's list), and were close to each other on lists back then. It makes me feel like people have just forgotten or just weigh early WoL way less (but not for MVP and MC?). Yes Nestea's peak came earlier, before MVP and MC's, so you could say it was in an earlier and weirder part of WoL, but idk if a few months makes that much difference now that we're at the 14 year mark.
I'm not super familiar with BW, but from what I know, it kinda just reminds me of how despite Jaedong being so good he was close to bonjwa, he was eclipsed slightly by Flash and so people just remember Flash and in their mind that puts a bigger gap between him and Jaedong than there actually should be. People just think "MVP" as the best out of "MVP MC Nestea", so they underrate the other 2 cus it feels like they've represented all 3 from that era with just MVP.
Anyways, big respect if Dark is #4. It's the option that would make the most sense to me. He has continued a few years past Inno's retirement too, and is still a top player. MVP I would put above Rain but it makes enough sense if you're just weighing WoL less altogether (no Kespa yet too). I feel more confident in this now that Miz hints that #9-13 has some more HotS/LotV protoss players - there's NO way Dark would below Stats or Classic. Dark is just a better Stats and better soo. Meanwhile it's very easily justifiable that MVP is below them because he's from such an outdated (and short) era.
It would be crazy if MVP is #4 while MC and Nestea (and players like Taeja too) are 10+ spots below him.
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
Well, thanks for spoiling that Inca isn't #4. Also I'm glad to hear it sounds like you had Stats/Classic for example in contention for #10 and aren't far behind Rain, i feel all the protoss are pretty close to each other.
This list seems reasonable from #22 to #10, with Rain at #22.
Fully agree that a player like Rain could be around #20. There are a LOT of great players. Though I wouldn't put players like Reynor and Trap that much higher (if at all) than players like Nestea and especially Taeja. I know the lists have different writers but it's kinda crazy how Taeja went from being a top GOAT contender to being seemingly forgotten or delgated to #15-20 on most people's lists, mainly cus he hasn't won a Starleague.
And Nestea and MC used to be above Zest but are now nowhere in most people's top 12s. (Yeah I know Zest won a couple more tournies and got a couple more 2nds at WCs, so it makes sense that he's higher now, and Nestea especially was from an older era, but I still think he's around #15-20 and MC a little higher.)
Even if early WoL years are weird, Nestea overcame that weirdness to be stupidly consistent and dominant for 1-1.5 years, winning 3 GSLs, his reign was only ended by MVP who is of a very similar calibre + Show Spoiler +
and Terran was overtuned and more fully designed than Protoss/Zerg and maps favored Terran back then
so it's not like those are bad losses). The only thing keeping Nestea's career from being closer to MVP's or MC's despite the similar level of dominance and skill level, is that Nestea simply didn't try to travel or play in any foreign tournaments (until towards the very end of his career, where his skill was already falling), so he didn't rack up as many results as MVP. So, if we're not punishing Serral that much for not trying a Starleague, we shouldn't punish Nestea that much for not trying non-KR tournaments, especially when GSL was the highest level of competition at the time (and top foreigners were competing in GSL).
I just think it's weird that these days people place MVP so far apart from Nestea, when Nestea MC MVP were quite comparable (#7 #4 #1 on stuchiu's list), and were close to each other on lists back then. It makes me feel like people have just forgotten or just weigh early WoL way less (but not for MVP and MC?). Yes Nestea's peak came earlier, before MVP and MC's, so you could say it was in an earlier and weirder part of WoL, but idk if a few months makes that much difference now that we're at the 14 year mark.
I'm not super familiar with BW, but from what I know, it kinda just reminds me of how despite Jaedong being so good he was close to bonjwa, he was eclipsed slightly by Flash and so people just remember Flash and in their mind that puts a bigger gap between him and Jaedong than there actually should be. People just think "MVP" as the best out of "MVP MC Nestea", so they underrate the other 2 cus it feels like they've represented all 3 from that era with just MVP.
Anyways, big respect if Dark is #4. It's the option that would make the most sense to me. He has continued a few years past Inno's retirement too, and is still a top player. MVP I would put above Rain but it makes enough sense if you're just weighing WoL less altogether (no Kespa yet too). I feel more confident in this now that Miz hints that #9-13 has some more HotS/LotV protoss players - there's NO way Dark would below Stats or Classic. Dark is just a better Stats and better soo. Meanwhile it's very easily justifiable that MVP is below them because he's from such an outdated (and short) era.
It would be crazy if MVP is #4 while MC and Nestea (and players like Taeja too) are 10+ spots below him.
You act as if it's a mark of shame to be the 15th best player of all time.
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
I had Rain anywhere from 9-13 during the process (an range that includes a few other Protoss). He ended up 10 when all was said and done, but I wouldn't go as far to say he is 100% third best Protoss behind sOs and Zest when you have the likes of Stats and Classic floating around.
Well, thanks for spoiling that Inca isn't #4. Also I'm glad to hear it sounds like you had Stats/Classic for example in contention for #10 and aren't far behind Rain, i feel all the protoss are pretty close to each other.
On February 07 2024 21:50 Poopi wrote:
This list seems reasonable from #22 to #10, with Rain at #22.
Fully agree that a player like Rain could be around #20. There are a LOT of great players. Though I wouldn't put players like Reynor and Trap that much higher (if at all) than players like Nestea and especially Taeja. I know the lists have different writers but it's kinda crazy how Taeja went from being a top GOAT contender to being seemingly forgotten or delgated to #15-20 on most people's lists, mainly cus he hasn't won a Starleague.
And Nestea and MC used to be above Zest but are now nowhere in most people's top 12s. (Yeah I know Zest won a couple more tournies and got a couple more 2nds at WCs, so it makes sense that he's higher now, and Nestea especially was from an older era, but I still think he's around #15-20 and MC a little higher.)
Even if early WoL years are weird, Nestea overcame that weirdness to be stupidly consistent and dominant for 1-1.5 years, winning 3 GSLs, his reign was only ended by MVP who is of a very similar calibre + Show Spoiler +
and Terran was overtuned and more fully designed than Protoss/Zerg and maps favored Terran back then
so it's not like those are bad losses). The only thing keeping Nestea's career from being closer to MVP's or MC's despite the similar level of dominance and skill level, is that Nestea simply didn't try to travel or play in any foreign tournaments (until towards the very end of his career, where his skill was already falling), so he didn't rack up as many results as MVP. So, if we're not punishing Serral that much for not trying a Starleague, we shouldn't punish Nestea that much for not trying non-KR tournaments, especially when GSL was the highest level of competition at the time (and top foreigners were competing in GSL).
I just think it's weird that these days people place MVP so far apart from Nestea, when Nestea MC MVP were quite comparable (#7 #4 #1 on stuchiu's list), and were close to each other on lists back then. It makes me feel like people have just forgotten or just weigh early WoL way less (but not for MVP and MC?). Yes Nestea's peak came earlier, before MVP and MC's, so you could say it was in an earlier and weirder part of WoL, but idk if a few months makes that much difference now that we're at the 14 year mark.
I'm not super familiar with BW, but from what I know, it kinda just reminds me of how despite Jaedong being so good he was close to bonjwa, he was eclipsed slightly by Flash and so people just remember Flash and in their mind that puts a bigger gap between him and Jaedong than there actually should be. People just think "MVP" as the best out of "MVP MC Nestea", so they underrate the other 2 cus it feels like they've represented all 3 from that era with just MVP.
Anyways, big respect if Dark is #4. It's the option that would make the most sense to me. He has continued a few years past Inno's retirement too, and is still a top player. MVP I would put above Rain but it makes enough sense if you're just weighing WoL less altogether (no Kespa yet too). I feel more confident in this now that Miz hints that #9-13 has some more HotS/LotV protoss players - there's NO way Dark would below Stats or Classic. Dark is just a better Stats and better soo. Meanwhile it's very easily justifiable that MVP is below them because he's from such an outdated (and short) era.
It would be crazy if MVP is #4 while MC and Nestea (and players like Taeja too) are 10+ spots below him.
You act as if it's a mark of shame to be the 15th best player of all time.
I don't think I said anything about that. It's more about the order and placement of players. If #15 is a great thing to be proud of, then it's only fair that someone who gets #10 deserves it much more, and #5 deserves it much much more. In this case, 1 of MVP and Dark (presumedly) being #4 and the other being ~#14, or in the tangent I had about MVP vs Taeja and Nestea/MC, #4 and ~#15-20 (if MVP is #4).
I just don't think there are that many more players to justify there being such a big gap between MVP and those players on people's lists, when back in the day people commonly put MVP and Taeja close to each other (this was before Innovation won a few more Premieres). It's definitely a result of people weighing those earlier times less, but strangely MVP isn't hit with it as much as players like Taeja/MC/Nestea, despite a player like Taeja being more recent (MVP was like 2011-2013, Taeja was 2012-2014, it's only 1 year different but Taeja was cleanly out of the weird early WoL era).
My guess is just that people see MVP with nostalgia, like I said earlier with picking MVP solely out of the other players from that time, and not feeling the need to rank the others highly because MVP represents the whole era in their mind.
Yeah, I always seem to agree with Yoshi Kirishima. It would somehow make more sense to have TaeJa>MVP, because he's slightly more modern and had great success in HotS. If MVP is #4 it would be as out of place as Rain at #10, it would feel decorative, he's here to symbolize the early era or something like this.
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote: Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other):
Quote from article
From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT.
Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
That I just read as a cowardly way to say, Life was accused of matchfixing in 2016, so at this point (half-way into sc2 life) InNoVation and MVP were the only realistic GOAT's, which I guess is true. But it is such a sly way to bump up the achievement of someone, by removing the achievements of someone else.
And we really shouldn't read too much into the Rain troll pick, realistically he should be #21-22 on a real GOAT list.
He wasn’t accused, it’s not some open-ended mystery, he did matchfix. Some fans scrub him from history, some don’t, but Miz was absolutely transparent from the start as to his stance here.
Here’s a wee challenge for you, Rain is #21/22 all time? Can you name all those 20/21 players ahead of him? No rush
On February 08 2024 07:22 BisuDagger wrote: If Reynor wins IEM this year does he get a top 10 spot? Exactly how far away is he from getting to that point?
To answer your question directly. Of the players I have ranked 11-15, Reynor has the most upward mobility of the group.
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
Can't blame the guy for having to play against the GOAT American himself, Polt.
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
And MVP couldn't even qualify for Code S all the time.
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
Can't blame the guy for having to play against the GOAT American himself, Polt.
LOL
I really do miss the holy trinity of TvT though, MVP (mech) MMA (bio tank) Polt (pure bio). I forgot who was beating who though. Fuck interference matrix, and fuck high dps turrets that only last 8 secs with cast range of 1. Give mech back its spellcaster (not counting ghost cus even though it's useful for mech, it's more of the bio spellcaster), and simply rework seeker missile and PDD to not scale when massed (make it so each PDD can only shoot down 2 projectiles per second or something, instead of 20 at once, so that you can't just put PDDs down 1 by 1 and hop all over the map, you'd have to committ to throwing them all down at once if you want to block 100% of damage, which gives counterplay cus the opponent can just make you burn them then fight elsewhere, with the Raven being 150 gas you could make PDD cost 125 energy too to make it even less massable).
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture.
Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post.
Pity about the injuries.
Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then.
In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction.
I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture.
Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post.
Pity about the injuries.
Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then.
In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction.
I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around
I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs.
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture.
Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post.
Pity about the injuries.
Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then.
In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction.
I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around
I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs.
I agree with both of these, including Wax's prior point, and that Taeja is underrated. It feels like somewhere along the way we've discounted most/all of the non-KR starleague/world championship events from 2013-2016, presumably because of some sense that those were the only ones were you truly had the absolute best of the world playing. But its just kind of not fair to the fragmented nature of the scene in 2012-2016, which was both mostly pseudo-region-locked and where it just wasn't practical for all the top players to travel to every international tournament. The fact Taeja was able to get player of the year in 2013, when in retrospect everyone probably considers that Innovation's year, shows how perspectives have changed, probably unfairly.
Where does that make Taeja (and for that matter, others?) No idea, but probably enough to get top 10 to be honest, and maybe even as high as #7.
I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
Lucifron and Vortix
Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind!
Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports.
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
Serral and Protosser come to mind, although similar level is quite debatable
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
Lucifron and Vortix
Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind!
Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports.
I would throw in hero and styla, the Schellhase-twins of early FIFA. Both of them won two WCGs, making it into the Hall of Fame
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
Lucifron and Vortix
Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind!
Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports.
I would throw in hero and styla, the Schellhase-twins of early FIFA. Both of them won two WCGs, making it into the Hall of Fame
Damn there are even hero's in FIFA? Truly the most overused ID in esports
There are quite a few sibling legends in Halo scene. Royal1 & Royal2, Roy & Lunchbox, Ogre1 & Ogre 2. But it makes a lot more sense for games like Halo, where you probably play with your brother on a couch growing up and those are obviously in the same game. I find it most interesting when it's separate games like Inno & Guma!
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
Lucifron and Vortix
Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind!
Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports.
I would throw in hero and styla, the Schellhase-twins of early FIFA. Both of them won two WCGs, making it into the Hall of Fame
Damn there are even hero's in FIFA? Truly the most overused ID in esports
I can only assume in other languages it just sounds cooler or something? To an English native speaker it just sounds a bit lame, or ‘naff’ as us Brits say as a choice of handle.
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture.
Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post.
Pity about the injuries.
Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then.
In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction.
I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around
I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs.
I agree with both of these, including Wax's prior point, and that Taeja is underrated. It feels like somewhere along the way we've discounted most/all of the non-KR starleague/world championship events from 2013-2016, presumably because of some sense that those were the only ones were you truly had the absolute best of the world playing. But its just kind of not fair to the fragmented nature of the scene in 2012-2016, which was both mostly pseudo-region-locked and where it just wasn't practical for all the top players to travel to every international tournament. The fact Taeja was able to get player of the year in 2013, when in retrospect everyone probably considers that Innovation's year, shows how perspectives have changed, probably unfairly.
Where does that make Taeja (and for that matter, others?) No idea, but probably enough to get top 10 to be honest, and maybe even as high as #7.
I've been trying to think of a way to better explain how I feel about it, and you bring up a good point that the scene back then was different, as in because of the weird region locks and stuff, and there being a ton of KR pros, they ended up kind of splitting up over different regions (Polt dominating AM for example, MC dominating EU, etc.). And it's not fair to retroactively just discount wins from that era just because they weren't wins at GSLs or WCs. It's not like Taeja was dodging the best players by farming weak regions, there were strong KR players everywhere. He had close rivalries with Life and MVP, the 2 other GOAT candidates back then.
That brings me to another way I'd like to explain why I feel Taeja is underrated now. I feel like, when we think about GOAT discussions, sometimes we end up overthinking things and weighing things a lot less or than they should. Regardless of how we might feel like weighing things now, I think it's helpful to try to remember the feeling back then of who was the most dominant and highest skilled players.
Back then, MVP and Life were basically matched in achievements and praise when it came to their skill (genius intellect, etc. etc.). And the GSL where Life beat MVP in the grand finals and stopped him from claiming a 4th GSL Code S was like a symbolic passing of the torch.
However, Taeja was right up there with them, and with Life in the post-MVP generation (his last big win is in 2013, but his peak was in 2011-2012, he was already on the decline when Taeja and Life were rising). It was often argued who was greater, Taeja or Life. They both won a ton of international weekend events in a short time of 1.5-2 years, had high placements at WC, and in Life's case he has a more rounded achievements list by winning at least one Starleague unlike Taeja. However, the feeling at the time when MVP's time was ending was that Life and Taeja were very close and the most dominant players.
We still consider MVP and Life to be top 10 best players of all time, with many people feeling they'd be ranked around #5-8 (right below Serral Maru Rogue Innovation, but above players like sOs). But in retrospect we've placed Taeja soo much lower because of how we feel we should weigh things now. I think when it comes to "greatest" players, there is merit in simply trying to remember the feeling you had of seeing Taeja dominate and win so many tournies and being on MVP/Life's tier, because back then when we were experiencing his dominance in real time, we had an understanding of the scene and what was impressive and great and what was not. I don't think we should doubt too much this feeling, come up with different metrics in retrospect that convince us that he wasn't "as impressive as we thought back then" or whatnot, because metrics are simply a way to help us make objective sense of things, but much of what makes up "greatness" is the awe and inspiring feeling you get, and if we remember we felt that he was a top player and one of the most dominant/GOAT/best players of SC2, then it's probably true.
(Meanwhile I barely remember Rain for example and I know I'm not the only one).
Also, I think the weekend tournaments that Taeja (and Life and MVP) won had high enough prize pools. Like sure, they may be lower than a GSL Code S, but a weekend tournament also takes much less time and practice and prep. The money you get for playing in 4 weekend tournaments instead of 1 Code S for example, more than made up at the time. Because of this, I don't think we can discount those weekend tournaments as like, "ah players didn't care about them as much because $15k prize isn't as much as $60k for GSL". They were all definitely trying hard to win.
Does anyone remember MLG Anaheim, one of the fiercest and most memorable "Tier 2" weekend tournaments? The one that had the Slayers TvZ BFH drop build that zergs just got dropped out of the tournament against cus they couldn't figure it out, all the TvTs and the sudden reveal that Mech was broken and players just spamming BFH against marauders, and MVP coming out on top of all that craziness with all the TvT specialists of the time? No one can go back and say "that's a T2 tournament, it's not as competitive as a GSL". To do so would just be undermining how big that tournament actually was at the time. At the time we all knew that was a huge fierce tournament cus we had a better understanding of the scene then than we have now with hazy memories. Especially not a GSL in the post COVID era. Like yes, winning 1 GSL back then was still bigger than winning 1 weekend tournament, the time invested is simply more for a season, but if Taeja is winning MANY weekend tournaments, often in a row, then that's something very different from winning one once in a while due to sheer number of attempts by staying in the scene for 10 years.
^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote: I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
Lucifron and Vortix
Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind!
Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports.
Not just brothers, but twins! These two were good BW players with Yellow, aka Yarnc, being much better… until they both were banned during the match fixing fiasco. Luxury YellOw(ArnC)
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture.
Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post.
Pity about the injuries.
Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then.
In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction.
I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around
I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs.
I agree with both of these, including Wax's prior point, and that Taeja is underrated. It feels like somewhere along the way we've discounted most/all of the non-KR starleague/world championship events from 2013-2016, presumably because of some sense that those were the only ones were you truly had the absolute best of the world playing. But its just kind of not fair to the fragmented nature of the scene in 2012-2016, which was both mostly pseudo-region-locked and where it just wasn't practical for all the top players to travel to every international tournament. The fact Taeja was able to get player of the year in 2013, when in retrospect everyone probably considers that Innovation's year, shows how perspectives have changed, probably unfairly.
Where does that make Taeja (and for that matter, others?) No idea, but probably enough to get top 10 to be honest, and maybe even as high as #7.
I've been trying to think of a way to better explain how I feel about it, and you bring up a good point that the scene back then was different, as in because of the weird region locks and stuff, and there being a ton of KR pros, they ended up kind of splitting up over different regions (Polt dominating AM for example, MC dominating EU, etc.). And it's not fair to retroactively just discount wins from that era just because they weren't wins at GSLs or WCs. It's not like Taeja was dodging the best players by farming weak regions, there were strong KR players everywhere. He had close rivalries with Life and MVP, the 2 other GOAT candidates back then.
That brings me to another way I'd like to explain why I feel Taeja is underrated now. I feel like, when we think about GOAT discussions, sometimes we end up overthinking things and weighing things a lot less or than they should. Regardless of how we might feel like weighing things now, I think it's helpful to try to remember the feeling back then of who was the most dominant and highest skilled players.
Back then, MVP and Life were basically matched in achievements and praise when it came to their skill (genius intellect, etc. etc.). And the GSL where Life beat MVP in the grand finals and stopped him from claiming a 4th GSL Code S was like a symbolic passing of the torch.
However, Taeja was right up there with them, and with Life in the post-MVP generation (his last big win is in 2013, but his peak was in 2011-2012, he was already on the decline when Taeja and Life were rising). It was often argued who was greater, Taeja or Life. They both won a ton of international weekend events in a short time of 1.5-2 years, had high placements at WC, and in Life's case he has a more rounded achievements list by winning at least one Starleague unlike Taeja. However, the feeling at the time when MVP's time was ending was that Life and Taeja were very close and the most dominant players.
We still consider MVP and Life to be top 10 best players of all time, with many people feeling they'd be ranked around #5-8 (right below Serral Maru Rogue Innovation, but above players like sOs). But in retrospect we've placed Taeja soo much lower because of how we feel we should weigh things now. I think when it comes to "greatest" players, there is merit in simply trying to remember the feeling you had of seeing Taeja dominate and win so many tournies and being on MVP/Life's tier, because back then when we were experiencing his dominance in real time, we had an understanding of the scene and what was impressive and great and what was not. I don't think we should doubt too much this feeling, come up with different metrics in retrospect that convince us that he wasn't "as impressive as we thought back then" or whatnot, because metrics are simply a way to help us make objective sense of things, but much of what makes up "greatness" is the awe and inspiring feeling you get, and if we remember we felt that he was a top player and one of the most dominant/GOAT/best players of SC2, then it's probably true.
[b](Meanwhile I barely remember Rain for example and I know I'm not the only one).
Also, I think the weekend tournaments that Taeja (and Life and MVP) won had high enough prize pools. Like sure, they may be lower than a GSL Code S, but a weekend tournament also takes much less time and practice and prep. The money you get for playing in 4 weekend tournaments instead of 1 Code S for example, more than made up at the time. Because of this, I don't think we can discount those weekend tournaments as like, "ah players didn't care about them as much because $15k prize isn't as much as $60k for GSL". They were all definitely trying hard to win.
Does anyone remember MLG Anaheim, one of the fiercest and most memorable "Tier 2" weekend tournaments? The one that had the Slayers TvZ BFH drop build that zergs just got dropped out of the tournament against cus they couldn't figure it out, all the TvTs and the sudden reveal that Mech was broken and players just spamming BFH against marauders, and MVP coming out on top of all that craziness with all the TvT specialists of the time? No one can go back and say "that's a T2 tournament, we can't weigh it as much compared to a GSL". To do so would just be undermining how big that tournament actually was at the time. At the time we all knew that was a huge fierce tournament cus we had a better understanding of the scene then than we have now with hazy memories. Especially not a GSL in the post COVID era. Like yes, winning 1 GSL back then was still bigger than winning 1 weekend tournament, the time invested is simply more for a season, but if Taeja is winning MANY weekend tournaments, often in a row, then that's something very different from winning one once in a while due to sheer number of attempts by staying in the scene for 10 years.
Very well said sir, if you ever whack up a full article on TL I look forward to reading it!
Time erodes context, unless one really tries to put it back in.
In 2023 looking back, some of those names will resonate as a B, or a C tier retrospectively, but at that time you’re talking the best teams around and most of the strongest active players. There’s some huge scalps in there too.
Multiple 4-kills, and an all-kill in the final, and still on the rematch due to upper bracket advantage he nailed a couple and it looked at one point like he could pull it back off.
I’d absolutely maintain this is one of the all-time great feats, running a gauntlet where opponents and races are quickly changing and having to adjust to that with little prep time. And in a Bo1 format to boot, where a cheeky cheese or a BO disadvantage just one time can end your run. And in the games that go down the macro route, having to outplay some damn tough opposition every time too.
I think it’s a pity we never really saw the combo of busy weekender and team competition again like that, and perhaps because that format has been so uncommon this accomplishment lies a bit under the radar?
Also is it just me or is it showing that Liquid won that? :S And a few odd quirks in the results. Like apparently Taeja all-killed Prime in the upper bracket but Slayers advanced and Liquid dropped to lower
As for the bolded, understandable, and I shall forgive you on account of you being Terran scum :p
Transporting back to myself at this time, having not grown up with pro-BW, just on account of not discovering places such as this in my couple of years casually playing as a pre-teen, but somewhat retrospectively immersing myself in those years. We hear the switch is happening, you get articles like ‘The Elephant in the Room’ and it’s pretty exciting. What are the guys like Flash and Bisu gonna show in this new game?
Instead, in terms of adaptation you get this guy Rain who BW vets knew was very talented, probably would have accomplished quite a lot in BW if it had continued a bit longer, and who many of us had never heard of show up. Not quite immediately out of the gate but, remarkably quickly he was throwing hands with the best, and not only that he was doing it with a rock solid macro game, which was quite the stylistic departure for Protoss.
He wasn’t the first to do this, indeed (and as a big fanboy of said player), Liquid’s HerO was playing something like that, especially in PvZ, and indeed Rain in an interview said he was the existing Protoss he took most inspiration from, but where HerO was mercurial, Rain was just rock solid.
In addition he basically solved PvP which was, and IMO has almost always been the most volatile of the mirrors, in the sense of ‘does the better player advance?’
It was like he just showed the class how to play PvT and PvZ anew, and demonstrated his PvP but people just couldn’t quite replicate his understanding (kind of like nowadays where MaxPax is the only guy who can do his fast expo style, even though everyone knows about it).
All things considered Rain is a controversial choice for the top 10 because it necessitates one of Dark or Mvp to drop out, which I have issues with, but it’s hard to overstate quite how revolutionary and just outright skilled he was in his time. I’d consider him personally, just skill wise, and that he went back to BW and won an ASL maybe the most talented, or the ‘best’ Protoss, just not the greatest by virtue of his short span. Zest’s already in ahead of him, but I think Stats and Classic/herO have an argument too.
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
For sure it's an incredible achievement, and he didn't stop playing early like mvp or others, so we had to see him in a worse light than his prime. It's also a prime example of the difference between greatness and GOAT list, versus for example Best of All Time lists.
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
sOs had a pretty good first 2-3 years of Lotv. He failed to qualify for a bunch of KILs, but he did reach the finals of Code S in 2016 (lost to ByuN), made the semifinals in Season 1 of 2017 (lost to soO) and reached the finals of Code S again later that year in Season 3 (lost to INnoVation). He was pretty solid in 2018 as well. He made the finals of Pyeonchang (lost to one of the most disgusting cheeses ever and really had no chance in the series), was one game shy of beating Classic in the finals of a Super Tournament and upset Maru at the WCS Global Finals on the way to a 3/4th finish.
All in all, one could reasonably assert that sOs was the second best Korean Protoss during the nascent years of Lotv.
I wish people would look at stuff before just saying stuff.
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
sOs had a pretty good first 2-3 years of Lotv. He failed to qualify for a bunch of KILs, but he did reach the finals of Code S in 2016 (lost to ByuN), made the semifinals in Season 1 of 2017 (lost to soO) and reached the finals of Code S again later that year in Season 3 (lost to INnoVation). He was pretty solid in 2018 as well. He made the finals of Pyeonchang (lost to one of the most disgusting cheeses ever), was one game shy of beating Classic in the finals of a Super Tournament and upset Maru at the WCS Global Finals.
All in all, one could reasonably assert that sOs was the second best Korean Protoss during the nascent years of Lotv.
I wish people would look at stuff before just saying stuff.
I wish people would look at what I said before saying stuff :p I kid
I said he didn’t win a huge amount outside of big, shiny WCs, which he didn’t really. He still had a fantastic career and many high placements.
He’s 3:3, well, 1:1 just briefly scanning in World Championship titles to any other Premier tournament wins.
That’s part of what makes $o$ so remarkable as a player, absolutely peaking for the culimination of a season, with all the other big hitters as hungry and motivated as they could be.
In the same sense I can say Maru hasn’t won a WC, which he hasn’t, but still acknowledge a whole bunch of top 4s and a silver show he’s no slouch either.
Indeed Maru is like the inverse $o$, his lack of a WC is remarkable because he’s won so much else, and been at worst top 3 in the world for at least 5 years
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
sOs had a pretty good first 2-3 years of Lotv. He failed to qualify for a bunch of KILs, but he did reach the finals of Code S in 2016 (lost to ByuN), made the semifinals in Season 1 of 2017 (lost to soO) and reached the finals of Code S again later that year in Season 3 (lost to INnoVation). He was pretty solid in 2018 as well. He made the finals of Pyeonchang (lost to one of the most disgusting cheeses ever), was one game shy of beating Classic in the finals of a Super Tournament and upset Maru at the WCS Global Finals.
All in all, one could reasonably assert that sOs was the second best Korean Protoss during the nascent years of Lotv.
I wish people would look at stuff before just saying stuff.
I wish people would look at what I said before saying stuff :p I kid
I said he didn’t win a huge amount outside of big, shiny WCs, which he didn’t really. He still had a fantastic career and many high placements.
He’s 3:3, well, 1:1 just briefly scanning in World Championship titles to any other Premier tournament wins.
That’s part of what makes $o$ so remarkable as a player, absolutely peaking for the culimination of a season, with all the other big hitters as hungry and motivated as they could be.
In the same sense I can say Maru hasn’t won a WC, which he hasn’t, but still acknowledge a whole bunch of top 4s and a silver show he’s no slouch either.
Indeed Maru is like the inverse $o$, his lack of a WC is remarkable because he’s won so much else, and been at worst top 3 in the world for at least 5 years
I'd say Zest + Stats had better 2016-2018 overall, while Classic had a better 2018 and similar 2016-2017 as sOs. herO had a better 2017 but worse 2018. Trap was not at his best yet. Even though sOs upset Maru in 2018, many people blamed Maru for not trying the macro game because sOs was seen as kinda weak otherwise ; and he was completely hopeless vs Serral while Stats put up a very good fight. Imo 2018 was when sOs started to become "weak" (for top KR player standards)
On February 08 2024 21:37 Poopi wrote: I'd say Zest + Stats had better 2016-2018 overall, while Classic had a better 2018 and similar 2016-2017 as sOs. herO had a better 2017 but worse 2018. Trap was not at his best yet. Even though sOs upset Maru in 2018, many people blamed Maru for not trying the macro game because sOs was seen as kinda weak otherwise ; and he was completely hopeless vs Serral while Stats put up a very good fight. Imo 2018 was when sOs started to become "weak" (for top KR player standards)
This is why I said "reasonably assert". He's not locked up for second best by any means, but you can make a very believable argument that he should. Stats is far and away the best during this period, but the clump of Protoss behind him can go any number of ways.
I actually really wish that PiG was doing his casting channel back when Inno was at his peak, or if there was similar analysis on that level. Everyone would say "GOAT macro mechanics," and we'd nod sagely, and notice that Inno had more stuff earlier than everyone or that his attack would always come EXACTLY when his upgrades kicked in, but there was nobody really using a fine-toothed comb and going over what made Inno better at macro -- how refined his builds were, how they branched, how he never forgot to do X little thing, how he had his hotkeys set up in such a way, et cetera -- than even the other top-level players, the way PiG does when he makes Dark vs. Serral type comparisons now or points out stuff like "Maru has his hotkeys set up in such a way you almost never see him scroll."
On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote: Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him.
Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture.
Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post.
Pity about the injuries.
Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then.
In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction.
I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around
I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs.
I agree with both of these, including Wax's prior point, and that Taeja is underrated. It feels like somewhere along the way we've discounted most/all of the non-KR starleague/world championship events from 2013-2016, presumably because of some sense that those were the only ones were you truly had the absolute best of the world playing. But its just kind of not fair to the fragmented nature of the scene in 2012-2016, which was both mostly pseudo-region-locked and where it just wasn't practical for all the top players to travel to every international tournament. The fact Taeja was able to get player of the year in 2013, when in retrospect everyone probably considers that Innovation's year, shows how perspectives have changed, probably unfairly.
Where does that make Taeja (and for that matter, others?) No idea, but probably enough to get top 10 to be honest, and maybe even as high as #7.
I've been trying to think of a way to better explain how I feel about it, and you bring up a good point that the scene back then was different, as in because of the weird region locks and stuff, and there being a ton of KR pros, they ended up kind of splitting up over different regions (Polt dominating AM for example, MC dominating EU, etc.). And it's not fair to retroactively just discount wins from that era just because they weren't wins at GSLs or WCs. It's not like Taeja was dodging the best players by farming weak regions, there were strong KR players everywhere. He had close rivalries with Life and MVP, the 2 other GOAT candidates back then.
That brings me to another way I'd like to explain why I feel Taeja is underrated now. I feel like, when we think about GOAT discussions, sometimes we end up overthinking things and weighing things a lot less or than they should. Regardless of how we might feel like weighing things now, I think it's helpful to try to remember the feeling back then of who was the most dominant and highest skilled players.
Back then, MVP and Life were basically matched in achievements and praise when it came to their skill (genius intellect, etc. etc.). And the GSL where Life beat MVP in the grand finals and stopped him from claiming a 4th GSL Code S was like a symbolic passing of the torch.
However, Taeja was right up there with them, and with Life in the post-MVP generation (his last big win is in 2013, but his peak was in 2011-2012, he was already on the decline when Taeja and Life were rising). It was often argued who was greater, Taeja or Life. They both won a ton of international weekend events in a short time of 1.5-2 years, had high placements at WC, and in Life's case he has a more rounded achievements list by winning at least one Starleague unlike Taeja. However, the feeling at the time when MVP's time was ending was that Life and Taeja were very close and the most dominant players.
We still consider MVP and Life to be top 10 best players of all time, with many people feeling they'd be ranked around #5-8 (right below Serral Maru Rogue Innovation, but above players like sOs). But in retrospect we've placed Taeja soo much lower because of how we feel we should weigh things now. I think when it comes to "greatest" players, there is merit in simply trying to remember the feeling you had of seeing Taeja dominate and win so many tournies and being on MVP/Life's tier, because back then when we were experiencing his dominance in real time, we had an understanding of the scene and what was impressive and great and what was not. I don't think we should doubt too much this feeling, come up with different metrics in retrospect that convince us that he wasn't "as impressive as we thought back then" or whatnot, because metrics are simply a way to help us make objective sense of things, but much of what makes up "greatness" is the awe and inspiring feeling you get, and if we remember we felt that he was a top player and one of the most dominant/GOAT/best players of SC2, then it's probably true.
(Meanwhile I barely remember Rain for example and I know I'm not the only one).
Also, I think the weekend tournaments that Taeja (and Life and MVP) won had high enough prize pools. Like sure, they may be lower than a GSL Code S, but a weekend tournament also takes much less time and practice and prep. The money you get for playing in 4 weekend tournaments instead of 1 Code S for example, more than made up at the time. Because of this, I don't think we can discount those weekend tournaments as like, "ah players didn't care about them as much because $15k prize isn't as much as $60k for GSL". They were all definitely trying hard to win.
Does anyone remember MLG Anaheim, one of the fiercest and most memorable "Tier 2" weekend tournaments? The one that had the Slayers TvZ BFH drop build that zergs just got dropped out of the tournament against cus they couldn't figure it out, all the TvTs and the sudden reveal that Mech was broken and players just spamming BFH against marauders, and MVP coming out on top of all that craziness with all the TvT specialists of the time? No one can go back and say "that's a T2 tournament, it's not as competitive as a GSL". To do so would just be undermining how big that tournament actually was at the time. At the time we all knew that was a huge fierce tournament cus we had a better understanding of the scene then than we have now with hazy memories. Especially not a GSL in the post COVID era. Like yes, winning 1 GSL back then was still bigger than winning 1 weekend tournament, the time invested is simply more for a season, but if Taeja is winning MANY weekend tournaments, often in a row, then that's something very different from winning one once in a while due to sheer number of attempts by staying in the scene for 10 years
But discussion of GOAT has to come with all the factors coming onto one- that's what makes it a GOAT not "current best" or "best of one area" Someone who is performing in non-top leagues would understandably have an asterisk on their name, just like how in soccer, even mbappe, who has performed in world cup and has come close to balon dor performance over the years, have an asterisk just because he stayed in "easier" ligue 1 and has yet to move on to top league even when he's shown so much. Pele wouldn't count because Brazil was a top league back when he played and Europe wasn't the powerhouse of today. Taeja is very comparable to someone line mbappe or even payet
And there's bit too much recency bias on these ranks imo. Post 2017 should count for lot less when comparing stuff like premier titles since even if skill level rose, the competition dropped by far to point it isn't really comparable to spl days - where there was much more pressure to perform, more games to perform, splitting attention between individual and team leagues and much more varied and deep pool of competition overall and constant fight to stay on top
Just like how players like light or last won't even come close into best Terran lists due to performing better only post kespa era with lessened competition, or how players like boxer, iloveoov will stay on top of list even though when compared to 2010s or even asl era, their skill is "lower", it's comparison relative to the amount of competition faced. Same could be said for savior and julyzerg.
If people go by only skill level, then players only at most recent times will dominate the list while ignoring people who laid the foundations and competed at peaks of the most competitive era. On top of that, the post spl era is lot less competitive and less pro playerpool than ever before
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
WeSG is a weird one because given the prize pool and status amongst players (INno for example said his goal was to win either WeSG, Katowice, or Blizzcon) you can absolutely give it the status of WC. It just doesn't feel like it to us because it's disconnected from the WCS/ESL circuit, and the actual tournaments only featured a handful of top players.
The korean qualifiers are probably the toughest qualifiers in the history of SC2. For most of the koreans, making it through qualifiers those would guarantee a top 4 in the tournament. You can easily consider the qualifiers to be as tough as the group stages of a Blizzcon or Katowice.
Side note, WeSG 2020 sadly would have been the all-time TvZ showdown (Rogue, Serral, Dark, INno, Maru, TY were the qualified players before it was cancelled).
Maru made top 3 in all three WeSG (he also made top 4 at another five Katowice/Blizzcons). Remarkably he's probably the most consistent player in World Championship events, despite never winning.
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
WeSG is a weird one because given the prize pool and status amongst players (INno for example said his goal was to win either WeSG, Katowice, or Blizzcon) you can absolutely give it the status of WC. It just doesn't feel like it to us because it's disconnected from the WCS/ESL circuit, and the actual tournaments only featured a handful of top players.
The korean qualifiers are probably the toughest qualifiers in the history of SC2. For most of the koreans, making it through qualifiers those would guarantee a top 4 in the tournament. You can easily consider the qualifiers to be as tough as the group stages of a Blizzcon or Katowice.
Side note, WeSG 2020 sadly would have been the all-time TvZ showdown (Rogue, Serral, Dark, INno, Maru, TY were the qualified players before it was cancelled).
Maru made top 3 in all three WeSG (he also made top 4 at another five Katowice/Blizzcons). Remarkably he's probably the most consistent player in World Championship events, despite never winning.
Aye agreed there, logically the combo of actually qualifying + winning the thing when you get there is just as difficult skill wise than winning a stacked tournament over the weekend.
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
WeSG is a weird one because given the prize pool and status amongst players (INno for example said his goal was to win either WeSG, Katowice, or Blizzcon) you can absolutely give it the status of WC. It just doesn't feel like it to us because it's disconnected from the WCS/ESL circuit, and the actual tournaments only featured a handful of top players.
The korean qualifiers are probably the toughest qualifiers in the history of SC2. For most of the koreans, making it through qualifiers those would guarantee a top 4 in the tournament. You can easily consider the qualifiers to be as tough as the group stages of a Blizzcon or Katowice.
Side note, WeSG 2020 sadly would have been the all-time TvZ showdown (Rogue, Serral, Dark, INno, Maru, TY were the qualified players before it was cancelled).
Maru made top 3 in all three WeSG (he also made top 4 at another five Katowice/Blizzcons). Remarkably he's probably the most consistent player in World Championship events, despite never winning.
Inno's goal was to make money. That's why he wanted to win wesg, iem, bcon.
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
WeSG is a weird one because given the prize pool and status amongst players (INno for example said his goal was to win either WeSG, Katowice, or Blizzcon) you can absolutely give it the status of WC. It just doesn't feel like it to us because it's disconnected from the WCS/ESL circuit, and the actual tournaments only featured a handful of top players.
The korean qualifiers are probably the toughest qualifiers in the history of SC2. For most of the koreans, making it through qualifiers those would guarantee a top 4 in the tournament. You can easily consider the qualifiers to be as tough as the group stages of a Blizzcon or Katowice.
Side note, WeSG 2020 sadly would have been the all-time TvZ showdown (Rogue, Serral, Dark, INno, Maru, TY were the qualified players before it was cancelled).
Maru made top 3 in all three WeSG (he also made top 4 at another five Katowice/Blizzcons). Remarkably he's probably the most consistent player in World Championship events, despite never winning.
Inno's goal was to make money. That's why he wanted to win wesg, iem, bcon.
On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote: ^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger). I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc. But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
WeSG is a weird one because given the prize pool and status amongst players (INno for example said his goal was to win either WeSG, Katowice, or Blizzcon) you can absolutely give it the status of WC. It just doesn't feel like it to us because it's disconnected from the WCS/ESL circuit, and the actual tournaments only featured a handful of top players.
The korean qualifiers are probably the toughest qualifiers in the history of SC2. For most of the koreans, making it through qualifiers those would guarantee a top 4 in the tournament. You can easily consider the qualifiers to be as tough as the group stages of a Blizzcon or Katowice.
Side note, WeSG 2020 sadly would have been the all-time TvZ showdown (Rogue, Serral, Dark, INno, Maru, TY were the qualified players before it was cancelled).
Maru made top 3 in all three WeSG (he also made top 4 at another five Katowice/Blizzcons). Remarkably he's probably the most consistent player in World Championship events, despite never winning.
Inno's goal was to make money. That's why he wanted to win wesg, iem, bcon.
Every players goal is to make money
Obv, but he was always one of the more transparent players when it came to why he played.
I was kind of a hater because he felt like the focal point of the Kespa vs. sc2 discussion when his dominance first began and the LR threads consistently went into a bickering mess when he crushed sc2 pros, but I respect how good he was. He never seemed super flashy but would just crush his opponents with overwhelming macro and force from what I remember watching him back in the day. deserved
Inno definitely deserving of the list. The machine itself. I always remember how Inno broke the game with his hellbat play, and his crazy mechanics that never fails.
Though, I would still put Maru, Rogue, MVP, and Dark in front of him in terms of the "Greatest". Can't wait to see the rest of the list.
Sadly, as a Protoss myself, am pretty sad no Protoss would have made the top 5. The game is pretty imbalanced in that sense. Loved MC's energy, but he was too old to continue much further.
On February 11 2024 11:31 Kitaen wrote: MVP must be 4, there is no other way. He can't drop from #1 to outside top 10 while Innovation basically won nothing in the last 8 years as well.
Can't believe Miz is making us wait until after IEM. The suspense is killing me!
Also what you said about INno is not close to true. He has done very well for himself well beyond the point where he last battled MVP in the GOAT discussion. His last really big ticket championship was WESG in 2019, and that was against god-mode Serral in the grand finals. Not even close to 8 years ago. It's for precisely this reason that I think he has to be higher than MVP, and why MVP is maybe (hopefully, IMO) not on the list.
On February 11 2024 11:31 Kitaen wrote: MVP must be 4, there is no other way. He can't drop from #1 to outside top 10 while Innovation basically won nothing in the last 8 years as well.
INno won plenty of things even while unmotivated and is a better talent than Mvp, by far
Yeah and Inno was strong throughout the Kespa HotS era, MVP fell off quickly despite still finding some success late in his career in 2013. Inno played during the latter part of WoL, throughout HotS, and first half of LotV, and he was a top Terran throughout all those years, and at multiple times the best player
So... there can't be any way MVP is #4, unless i missed something about the criteria for this list Miz mentioned there are some protoss that are very close to Rain, so #11-12 is probably Stats and Classic or something, and MVP at #13, or maybe herO or Trap are #13-14 and MVP is #15. There can't be any way that a not outdated player like Dark is below Stats and Classic.
On February 11 2024 17:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yeah and Inno was strong throughout the Kespa HotS era, MVP fell off quickly despite still finding some success late in his career in 2013. Inno played during the latter part of WoL, throughout HotS, and first half of LotV, and he was a top Terran throughout all those years, and at multiple times the best player
So... there can't be any way MVP is #4, unless i missed something about the criteria for this list Miz mentioned there are some protoss that are very close to Rain, so #11-12 is probably Stats and Classic or something, and MVP at #13, or maybe herO or Trap are #13-14 and MVP is #15. There can't be any way that a not outdated player like Dark is below Stats and Classic.
On February 11 2024 18:52 NoMacroNoHonour wrote: Inno should be Rank 3 imo.
1) Maru 2) Rogue 3) Innovation 4) Dark 5) Zest
Although I can see the argument for Zest over Dark because of Pro League, and Dark only peaking when Zerg was clearly overpowered.
Serral fans will flame this opinion but sorry - He hasnt played in Pro League and He hasnt played in GSL.
That's like calling someone who hasn't played in the NBA the GOAT of basketball xD
Rogue Himself still beats Serral in raw accolades too.
Serral won 2 WC and a lot of smaller events so even though he only did so in Zerg overpowered era, he has a resume worthy of top 5 or even top 3. His play is mechanically strong and he has a very clean scouting which makes him very consistent. But yeah he is below Rogue in terms of achievements. Given Miz criterion he will probably put Serral above Rogue though
On February 11 2024 17:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yeah and Inno was strong throughout the Kespa HotS era, MVP fell off quickly despite still finding some success late in his career in 2013. Inno played during the latter part of WoL, throughout HotS, and first half of LotV, and he was a top Terran throughout all those years, and at multiple times the best player
So... there can't be any way MVP is #4, unless i missed something about the criteria for this list Miz mentioned there are some protoss that are very close to Rain, so #11-12 is probably Stats and Classic or something, and MVP at #13, or maybe herO or Trap are #13-14 and MVP is #15. There can't be any way that a not outdated player like Dark is below Stats and Classic.
But what did Rain do to end up above MVP?!
I don't agree with it, but i think the main way to justify it is probably that Rain was strong in the HotS Kespa era 2013-2015, whereas MVP was strong in 2011-2012 and his last hurrah was in 2013.
On February 11 2024 11:31 Kitaen wrote: MVP must be 4, there is no other way. He can't drop from #1 to outside top 10 while Innovation basically won nothing in the last 8 years as well.
INno won plenty of things even while unmotivated and is a better talent than Mvp, by far
Well, this list is not about talent (only).
MVP won when SC2 was at its height of relevance, he was the king of GSL when the GSL was the unrivaled and most prestigious tournament in the world. He won with utter dominance and was nigh to unbeatable in TvT. MVP won when his body let him down. He set the foundation for a lot of players, viewers, matchups and strategy.
He is the initial goat of SC2, as Boxer was in SC1.
For his impact on the game and his sucess over an arguably relative short peroid of time he must be acknowledged.
Nothing of the mentioned above is true for Innovation. I'd never even considered him in the top5. For me players like Nestea or MC have a far more important role in the history of SC2. Being a very good player mechanic wise with decent sucess over a decade does not cut it for me. Obviously his achievements are great overall, but given the timespan in which he did them, makes them less relevant for me.
Innovation is very very well off at #5. Polt e.g won 7 Premier titles and nobody would consider him superior to Innovation. Yet you could argue he won more in half the playtime.
WoL wasn't the most competitive era / height of relevance, HotS was, and INno was more successful there. Even early LotV was more significant than WoL. Plus, mvp wasn't that dominant in GSL, there were a lot of tournaments per year and he didn't win that many.
I mean I like the guy even though he bullied my favorite player back then MKP over and over, but he isn't close to INnoVation in the grand scheme of things, in terms of greatness.
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era
When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
Mizen is a genius for taking his time with his GOAT list. He waited for this tournament to end before finalizing his list
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
In which universe was Oliveira "the best" 2023? He was World Champion of course, but that was his only truely noteworthy achievement that year...
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era
When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons
Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them.
The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable.
The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era
When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons
Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them.
The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable.
The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
Actually my statement is pretty close to reality
Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong)
Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc)
Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
In which universe was Oliveira "the best" 2023? He was World Champion of course, but that was his only truely noteworthy achievement that year...
He's trolling.
Since Serral stopped studying and focused on sc2 he has been pretty much The sovereign king of starcraft, all these people claiming that the GSL wins alone make Maru the best are stuck in the old days of GSL. The fact is that the korean scene hasn't been the strongest for many years (it still is the widest on the shoulders of the old breed) and Serral has showed that he is the no.1 player of the game. If Maru is easily the best of the koreans and their head to head (During the bulk of Marus GSL wins!) looks like this i can't fathom a reason Serral wouldn't be the clear Bonjwa.
But Serral is just so much more dominant than any other player statistically, that the only reason it isn't absolutely clear he's leagues above everyone else is because he doesn't compete in Korea (well he did.. a couple of times and won...), if he did, you'd see Maru/Rogue/Dark getting dunked constantly and not just every 3-4 months, if you have 75% WR over the undisputed #2 player in the world you're on a league of your own.
Serral really should be getting compared to Magnus Carlsen/Flash in terms of dominance, not "Is hE ThE GoAT" while being the favourite to win every tournament he enters for the past 6 years.
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Serral has the best winrate against Korean-only opponents of all time. He had a 5% better winrate against Korean opponents than Dark in 2019. 5% is a TON at this level of play. He was the betting favorite for every single game from 2018-now.
This past IEM results made this literally non-debatable. Serral leads in literally every category now, including matching Rogue on World Championships. Stans will hopelessly cling to the "Kespa era best era" as their last remaining illegitimate argument.
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
In which universe was Oliveira "the best" 2023? He was World Champion of course, but that was his only truely noteworthy achievement that year...
He's trolling.
Since Serral stopped studying and focused on sc2 he has been pretty much The sovereign king of starcraft, all these people claiming that the GSL wins alone make Maru the best are stuck in the old days of GSL. The fact is that the korean scene hasn't been the strongest for many years (it still is the widest on the shoulders of the old breed) and Serral has showed that he is the no.1 player of the game. If Maru is easily the best of the koreans and their head to head (During the bulk of Marus GSL wins!) looks like this i can't fathom a reason Serral wouldn't be the clear Bonjwa.
I dont know why the image is "loading" but you can go to Aligulac and check Marus rivarlies and see for yourself. Most of the matches Maru wins are in the group stages or "meaningless" while Serral brings his A game when it matters.
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era
When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons
Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them.
The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable.
The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
Actually my statement is pretty close to reality
Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong)
Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc)
Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
I do not think that is true. Games do involve ofc, but a lot comes down to major game overhauls / balance changes. I agree for the very early stages of the realease when everyone was figuring out the game. After a year of WoL the skill ceiling started to increase drastically. In general WoL was a lot slower due to the nature of the game.
Innovation was never better than in 2013 and had arguably one of the highest skill peaks in SC2 overall according to many ppl in this thread.
From my personal experience: I was GM in WoL 3x, HoTS 1x and made it recently to GM again with sub 300 games after a 5 year break (I have barely more than 3k games overall). I feel the lower master tiers have never been less competitive and high master was also significantely harder during HoTS.
Maybe it is different for the pro's but certainly not for the "on the brink of beeing competitive" players.
On February 12 2024 00:15 Poopi wrote: WoL wasn't the most competitive era / height of relevance, HotS was, and INno was more successful there. Even early LotV was more significant than WoL. Plus, mvp wasn't that dominant in GSL, there were a lot of tournaments per year and he didn't win that many.
I mean I like the guy even though he bullied my favorite player back then MKP over and over, but he isn't close to INnoVation in the grand scheme of things, in terms of greatness.
I disagree, mid to late WoL was the height of relevance, at least in terms of viewership and I say that as a Terran with the completely op BL / Infestor late game that was daily business. If you are talking long term sucess, Innovation certainly has a spot on this list, but even his total win/major trophies do not add up to MVPs sucess and I am not talking about the insane legacy and impact that MVP left behind.
Being "feared" or "high skilled" is not a relevant factor when measuring a goat list. 1) What did you win 2) When did you win 3) How hard was it to win compared to today 4) Was the game more relevant at the time of the individuals sucess 5) How did you win 6) Is there a special circumstance when you won
Those are factor I would consider important, but to each their own opinion.
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
You don't understand what I'm saying in the slightest.
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
Miz might not want it to be influenced by this tournament since he's already ranked a bunch of players *anyway*. You've got to make a cutoff for the list somewhere, after all.
But I still don't think it's actually that unreasonable to have the list be the same either way. I can see justification for both, with or without #1 this tournament. If you valued the old competitive scene and the difficulty of being good during it, then you might favor Maru. If you consider peak and dominance of the scene, regardless of the competitive field, it's extremely obvious Serral should be #1. Or maybe you think Serrals complete dominance is so much more impressive than Maru's historical dominance that Maru could win WC and still not be above Serral!
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era
When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons
Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them.
The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable.
The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
Actually my statement is pretty close to reality Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong)
Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc)
Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
I still don't know why people make arguments about "skill", just because players today would crush players in the past. In Chess, Hikaru or Wesley So, two top rated but never #1 players would absolutely destroy anyone before 2010. I doubt he'd even win a single game, if 90s Kasparov faced 2024 Hikaru. Is Hikaru more skilled than Kasparov? Well Hikaru had way more resources, as well as being able to build on the knowledge of all previous chess players. Should we rank Hikaru above Kasparov despite him never winning any WCs? This is also true for SC2, and LoL, and other games too. Is Harstem better than MC because he's presently more technically skilled than MC used to be, despite not being as accomplished.
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
Miz might not want it to be influenced by this tournament since he's already ranked a bunch of players *anyway*. You've got to make a cutoff for the list somewhere, after all.
But I still don't think it's actually that unreasonable to have the list be the same either way. I can see justification for both, with or without #1 this tournament. If you valued the old competitive scene and the difficulty of being good during it, then you might favor Maru. If you consider peak and dominance of the scene, regardless of the competitive field, it's extremely obvious Serral should be #1. Or maybe you think Serrals complete dominance is so much more impressive than Maru's historical dominance that Maru could win WC and still not be above Serral!
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era
When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons
Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them.
The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable.
The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
Actually my statement is pretty close to reality Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong)
Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc)
Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
I still don't know why people make arguments about "skill", just because players today would crush players in the past. In Chess, Hikaru or Wesley So, two top rated but never #1 players would absolutely destroy anyone before 2010. I doubt he'd even win a single game, if 90s Kasparov faced 2024 Hikaru. Is Hikaru more skilled than Kasparov? Well Hikaru had way more resources, as well as being able to build on the knowledge of all previous chess players. Should we rank Hikaru above Kasparov despite him never winning any WCs? This is also true for SC2, and LoL, and other games too. Is Harstem better than MC because he's presently more technically skilled than MC used to be, despite not being as accomplished.
Please trust me to handle this thing responsibly given all the effort I've put in and the fact that I was aware this might occur.
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era
When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons
Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them.
The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable.
The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
Actually my statement is pretty close to reality
Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong)
Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc)
Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
This is the most delusional post in this entire series so far. If nothing else, people were raving about MKP in 2011, not 2016, the game improved in skill most rapidly in it's first couple of years. And that's not to take away from winners in the early days, that's like saying Muhammad Ali isn't one of the great boxers because he'd lose to modern athletes.
But more importantly, RTS isn't about marine splits. People on ladder can do marine splits, but they can't do them while having good macro, or having any semblance of game awareness, or the understanding of build orders, basic RTS mechanics, that any pro player does. If you think a masters player would beat a pro in 2016 you have never seen a pro play.
For the love of Serral go back and watch some POVs from 2016 or earlier. They are legions better than any masters player will ever be. Hell, remember WoL players like MC and TOP? Both of those guys have come out of retirement and still made it into Code S in LotV.
And yeah, 'lower tier full time pros' absolutely make the difference to the top dogs. Back in HotS most of the koreans had been pro gamers for 5-10 years, and there were around 100 full time players in korea. Championship level players would often not even qualify for Code S, people would sometimes royal road tournaments. And probably the biggest thing, lower tier pros eventually become the top dogs, if guys like SpeeD, Forte, Trust etc were still playing now, they might have been contenders to win everything.
And to add to that even further, it's not even 'lower tier pros' that are missing. TY, INnoVation, soO, sOs, Zest, Stats, Dream, ByuL, Rogue, PartinG, Neeb, Dear all gone. Those guys were all championship players that would have been in competition with Maru and Serral
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
It's a weird one, because out of the top 10 players, presumably only 2 of them were at Katowice (Maru and Serral, who happen to be the obvious 1 and 2, which makes it weird). But at the same time everyone knew Serral would win, his dominance on the international stage was already the best in SC2 history, so it doesn't really effect his case that much really. It's like if Maru wins the next couple GSLs, it's not gonna move him in anyone's list.
It would make a bigger difference had Dark won tbh, with 2 World Cups and 3 Starleagues having him out of the top 10 would be unthinkable.
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
You don't understand what I'm saying in the slightest.
Well obviously not because the articles aren't published! I look forward to reading them when they are.
On February 12 2024 08:22 Fango wrote: And to add to that even further, it's not even 'lower tier pros' that are missing. TY, INnoVation, soO, sOs, Zest, Stats, Dream, ByuL, Rogue, PartinG, Neeb, Dear all gone. Those guys were all championship players that would have been in competition with Maru and Serral
FWIW I just looked up Serral's record against those players on Aligulac and he's got a nearly 65% win-rate against those players (besides Dear; no games) across 345 games. There's context of course—best of 1s, team leagues, online games, etc.—but that kind of context is true for both players and it's still nearly 65%, and includes pre-2018 games.
I've seen people making this point often—the field of real contenders is smaller than it once was, making it more difficult for individuals vs the field—and while it's true it also feels less important at the very, very peak. If in order to win a premier series you need to make it out of group stages and then win 3 or 4 series against high level competition, and your past record is winning 65% of the time against the field of top level hypothetical opponents you might have faced instead of the people who you actually faced, isn't the most likely outcome that you would have won in either scenario? Because if, say, TY, Inno, Zest, etc. were still playing at the level of serious contenders today, it's not like Serral would have to beat them in addition to whoever else he plays in a tournament; if he played them they would be replacing a different opponent. And I guess I just don't see that prospect as a notably more difficult challenge than playing the people he actually plays at the playoffs.
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
It's a weird one, because out of the top 10 players, presumably only 2 of them were at Katowice (Maru and Serral, who happen to be the obvious 1 and 2, which makes it weird). But at the same time everyone knew Serral would win, his dominance on the international stage was already the best in SC2 history, so it doesn't really effect his case that much really. It's like if Maru wins the next couple GSLs, it's not gonna move him in anyone's list.
It would make a bigger difference had Dark won tbh, with 2 World Cups and 3 Starleagues having him out of the top 10 would be unthinkable.
Plus if Dark took out a red-hot Serral and Maru back to back, add a little sparkle on top of the title!
For me it doesn’t really move the needle on Serral/Maru, I don’t think it’s possible to fully compare eras, and honestly even if Serral went to play GSL at this stage it’s almost too late to answer that question, it’s not the competition it was even a couple of years ago. So people who hold that against Serral I think always will.
For me there’s probably relatively few folks who haven’t made their minds up on this question, and it’s irrespective of this one result.
One thing I would (boldly?) claim is I think Serral is pretty damn enshrined as the greatest of the post-Kespa era. Even if he quit today I don’t think we’ll have the game remain at even its current stage for anyone else to replicate what he’s done. And he’s not quitting for a wee while yet.
He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote: He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
On February 12 2024 08:22 Fango wrote: And to add to that even further, it's not even 'lower tier pros' that are missing. TY, INnoVation, soO, sOs, Zest, Stats, Dream, ByuL, Rogue, PartinG, Neeb, Dear all gone. Those guys were all championship players that would have been in competition with Maru and Serral
FWIW I just looked up Serral's record against those players on Aligulac and he's got a nearly 65% win-rate against those players (besides Dear; no games) across 345 games. There's context of course—best of 1s, team leagues, online games, etc.—but that kind of context is true for both players and it's still nearly 65%, and includes pre-2018 games.
I've seen people making this point often—the field of real contenders is smaller than it once was, making it more difficult for individuals vs the field—and while it's true it also feels less important at the very, very peak. If in order to win a premier series you need to make it out of group stages and then win 3 or 4 series against high level competition, and your past record is winning 65% of the time against the field of top level hypothetical opponents you might have faced instead of the people who you actually faced, isn't the most likely outcome that you would have won in either scenario? Because if, say, TY, Inno, Zest, etc. were still playing at the level of serious contenders today, it's not like Serral would have to beat them in addition to whoever else he plays in a tournament; if he played them they would be replacing a different opponent. And I guess I just don't see that prospect as a notably more difficult challenge than playing the people he actually plays at the playoffs.
Plus except for Rogue, and pre-military TY most of those guys dropped off from championship contention long before they actually left the scene. And Serral relatively smacked TY around, the latter’s style, so great for TvT but lacking the crazy speed and micro of a Maru/Clem just didn’t match up well against Serral’s strengths.
Now maybe if Korea had got more love, some cash to run another Starleague or something else structural, maybe more players keep up that motivation to stay at the top. I’ve long felt it a crying shame.
Stats was probably the only other one who was in genuine championship contender state for any period during the span where Serral really started hitting his stride. They had some memorable clashes for sure.
Inno’s last big showing was in taking Serral out to win WESG, but he was checked (well, chequed) out once he got that prize really.
On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote: Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024!
This is actually something really important I wanted to mention.
This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.
However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Damn, maybe a hint that it means that Dark is #4. Because if Dark won Katowice, it might give him a case to match or be above Rogue or whoever #3 is.
On February 12 2024 07:06 Kitaen wrote: From my personal experience: I was GM in WoL 3x, HoTS 1x and made it recently to GM again with sub 300 games after a 5 year break (I have barely more than 3k games overall). I feel the lower master tiers have never been less competitive and high master was also significantely harder during HoTS.
I find this interesting, because my experience is the opposite. As a former masters player in HotS, I feel opponents have became more skilled comparatively and I struggle to get from Diamond 1 to Masters 3.
At my peak at the end of HotS, I was high masters and facing off vs low GMs about half of my ladder games (and would win vs some of them). Early LotV, I was mid masters at 4500 MR, and now I vary from 3900 to 4200 MMR despite still playing now and then and trying to improve.
Ofc, this is probably because of the difference in focus between HotS and LotV, and the difference in our skillsets.
On February 12 2024 07:06 Kitaen wrote: I disagree, mid to late WoL was the height of relevance, at least in terms of viewership and I say that as a Terran with the completely op BL / Infestor late game that was daily business.
Don't forget that mass Raven/PDD only started to be used by pros in late HotS and was arguably the most OP thing in SC2 history other than maybe archon toilet, even despite the nerfs to PDD lasting only 20 secs. In WoL they lasted THREE to FOUR minutes meaning you didn't even need to get the 20+ Ravens like in HotS, just 10 would be enough.
If pro Terrans knew about mass Raven in WoL, then they wouldn't have struggled vs BL Infestor at all with some basic splitting vs fungal and tanks/emp to zone out Neural Parasite. Without Viper abduct and parabomb, there was really nothing stopping Raven+Viking from having complete air control and destroy infinite numbers of corruptors.
Yeah given the various comments of Miz + the intro, the order is probably: #4 Dark, #3 Maru, #2 Serral and #1 Rogue. Or maybe #2 Rogue and #1 Serral. Since balance isn’t taken into account, Rogue and Serral will be above Maru for sure. INno below either mvp (I doubt it’s gonna be mvp) or Dark is kinda weird though, but that’s subjective, INno is also lacking a WC in his resume
WESG is not considered WC + Serral was sick yet INno barely beat him 4-3
Edit: lol about the comment above, you can ask current pros from today to play on BL/infestor patch and see if your raven / Viking strat (or any for that matter) can work. Heck I would even bet 300$ that current top zergs vs current top terrans on WoL BL/infestor patch would lean in the favor of Zerg’s given enough preparation time to be back in « WoL » mode (lot less QoL in WoL, gotta take some time to adjust)
On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote: He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
You could also argue if he had participated in all GSLs and the likes, he'd have won most of them cementing his status as GOAT yeaers ago. Not to bait here, but "what if" doesn't really cut it. We have facts and stats for all players and that is what counts
On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote: He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
You could also argue if he had participated in all GSLs and the likes, he'd have won most of them cementing his status as GOAT yeaers ago. Not to bait here, but "what if" doesn't really cut it. We have facts and stats for all players and that is what counts
Yea his premise doesn't make any sense, why would he be weaker in South Korea? Let's assume the default assumption he'd beat them at the same rate he's beating them now, if he participated in every tournament his peers participated he'd have won even more stuff than they did, he beats them more often than he is beat by them, you don't need to engage in any mental gymnastics.
Serral has been the favorite to win every tournament he enters for the past 6 years, koreans or not present, when people vote with their wallet they tend to be more reasonable.
On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote: He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
You could also argue if he had participated in all GSLs and the likes, he'd have won most of them cementing his status as GOAT yeaers ago. Not to bait here, but "what if" doesn't really cut it. We have facts and stats for all players and that is what counts
Yea his premise doesn't make any sense, why would he be weaker in South Korea? Let's assume the default assumption he'd beat them at the same rate he's beating them now, if he participated in every tournament his peers participated he'd have won even more stuff than they did, he beats them more often than he is beat by them, you don't need to engage in any mental gymnastics.
Serral has been the favorite to win every tournament he enters for the past 6 years, koreans or not present, when people vote with their wallet they tend to be more reasonable.
That's a gross (and pretty inaccurate) oversimplification of how gambling odds are determined.
But, yeah, avoiding prognostication is a good policy to go by when trying to be reasonable with stuff like this.
On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote: He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
You could also argue if he had participated in all GSLs and the likes, he'd have won most of them cementing his status as GOAT yeaers ago. Not to bait here, but "what if" doesn't really cut it. We have facts and stats for all players and that is what counts
Yea his premise doesn't make any sense, why would he be weaker in South Korea? Let's assume the default assumption he'd beat them at the same rate he's beating them now, if he participated in every tournament his peers participated he'd have won even more stuff than they did, he beats them more often than he is beat by them, you don't need to engage in any mental gymnastics.
Serral has been the favorite to win every tournament he enters for the past 6 years, koreans or not present, when people vote with their wallet they tend to be more reasonable.
Er, so just to be clearer: I did not argue that there would be any reason to suppose he would be weaker in Korea, I did not say that the opposite counterfactual was impossible (it was just irrelevant to what I was responding to), and it was not my premise. I even said " it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place."
On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote: He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
You could also argue if he had participated in all GSLs and the likes, he'd have won most of them cementing his status as GOAT yeaers ago. Not to bait here, but "what if" doesn't really cut it. We have facts and stats for all players and that is what counts
Yea his premise doesn't make any sense, why would he be weaker in South Korea? Let's assume the default assumption he'd beat them at the same rate he's beating them now, if he participated in every tournament his peers participated he'd have won even more stuff than they did, he beats them more often than he is beat by them, you don't need to engage in any mental gymnastics.
Serral has been the favorite to win every tournament he enters for the past 6 years, koreans or not present, when people vote with their wallet they tend to be more reasonable.
That's a gross (and pretty inaccurate) oversimplification of how gambling odds are determined.
But, yeah, avoiding prognostication is a good policy to go by when trying to be reasonable with stuff like this.
Can you clarify your statement about gambling odds? Why is it "pretty inaccurate"?
On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote: He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
You could also argue if he had participated in all GSLs and the likes, he'd have won most of them cementing his status as GOAT yeaers ago. Not to bait here, but "what if" doesn't really cut it. We have facts and stats for all players and that is what counts
Yea his premise doesn't make any sense, why would he be weaker in South Korea? Let's assume the default assumption he'd beat them at the same rate he's beating them now, if he participated in every tournament his peers participated he'd have won even more stuff than they did, he beats them more often than he is beat by them, you don't need to engage in any mental gymnastics.
Serral has been the favorite to win every tournament he enters for the past 6 years, koreans or not present, when people vote with their wallet they tend to be more reasonable.
That's a gross (and pretty inaccurate) oversimplification of how gambling odds are determined.
But, yeah, avoiding prognostication is a good policy to go by when trying to be reasonable with stuff like this.
Can you clarify your statement about gambling odds? Why is it "pretty inaccurate"?
I think he just meant there is more to it than that. Like Home and Away games are rated very different despite the same teams playing etc. Prizepool and modus (lenghty, 1 match a week) all have to be considered. Stuff like that
On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote: He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
You could also argue if he had participated in all GSLs and the likes, he'd have won most of them cementing his status as GOAT yeaers ago. Not to bait here, but "what if" doesn't really cut it. We have facts and stats for all players and that is what counts
Yea his premise doesn't make any sense, why would he be weaker in South Korea? Let's assume the default assumption he'd beat them at the same rate he's beating them now, if he participated in every tournament his peers participated he'd have won even more stuff than they did, he beats them more often than he is beat by them, you don't need to engage in any mental gymnastics.
Serral has been the favorite to win every tournament he enters for the past 6 years, koreans or not present, when people vote with their wallet they tend to be more reasonable.
That's a gross (and pretty inaccurate) oversimplification of how gambling odds are determined.
But, yeah, avoiding prognostication is a good policy to go by when trying to be reasonable with stuff like this.
Can you clarify your statement about gambling odds? Why is it "pretty inaccurate"?
I think he just meant there is more to it than that. Like Home and Away games are rated very different despite the same teams playing etc. Prizepool and modus (lenghty, 1 match a week) all have to be considered. Stuff like that
Uhh sure, those are details that change who is the favourite to win.
On February 12 2024 20:01 Poopi wrote: Edit: lol about the comment above, you can ask current pros from today to play on BL/infestor patch and see if your raven / Viking strat (or any for that matter) can work. Heck I would even bet 300$ that current top zergs vs current top terrans on WoL BL/infestor patch would lean in the favor of Zerg’s given enough preparation time to be back in « WoL » mode (lot less QoL in WoL, gotta take some time to adjust)
I would love to bet on that! BL Infestor was OP cus it was "the strongest composition" in the game, which wasn't true (at least not in a vacuum, strictly speaking).
Pros really just didn't experiment enough with Ravens/PDD until late HotS. Even in HotS, it took them that long to realize that it was busted, so it's not a surprise that it can take a while for pros to discover something really strong, especially if it's a less common composition like mech. (Similarly, they didn't realize BFH Mech was super strong until MLG Anaheim in WoL, and then it was nerfed right after).
All Mech players would have to do is mix in a few more Ravens than they did in the past. At that stage of the game, gas wasn't really a problem, and it'd be easy to build up to 10+ Ravens by that point that Zerg masses up BL/Infestor. You didn't even need to engage the BL/Infestor head on with mass Raven, you could just run around and drop auto turrets around their bases.
Pros don't always do everything optimally. Another example is MVP didn't think to stack his BCs and EMP them vs Squirtle, and he let his BCs get mass feedback'd.
You might lol at the idea, but everyone also laughed at mass Raven in HotS until GSL pros started doing it.
On February 12 2024 20:01 Poopi wrote: Edit: lol about the comment above, you can ask current pros from today to play on BL/infestor patch and see if your raven / Viking strat (or any for that matter) can work. Heck I would even bet 300$ that current top zergs vs current top terrans on WoL BL/infestor patch would lean in the favor of Zerg’s given enough preparation time to be back in « WoL » mode (lot less QoL in WoL, gotta take some time to adjust)
I would love to bet on that! BL Infestor was OP cus it was "the strongest composition" in the game, which wasn't true. Pros really just didn't experiment enough with Ravens/PDD until late HotS. Even in HotS, it took them that long to realize that it was busted, so it's not a surprise that it can take a while for pros to discover something really strong, especially if it's a less common composition like mech. (Similarly, they didn't realize BFH Mech was super strong until MLG Anaheim in WoL, and then it was nerfed right after).
All Mech players would have to do is mix in a few more Ravens than they did in the past. At that stage of the game, gas wasn't really a problem, and it'd be easy to build up to 10+ Ravens by that point that Zerg masses up BL/Infestor.
Pros don't always do everything optimally. Another example is MVP didn't think to stack his BCs and EMP them vs Squirtle, and he let his BCs get mass feedback'd.
You might lol at the idea, but everyone also laughed at it in HotS until GSL pros started doing it.
Even taking ravens aside, infestor instant fungal was busted and was thankfully nerfed in HotS.
On February 12 2024 20:01 Poopi wrote: Edit: lol about the comment above, you can ask current pros from today to play on BL/infestor patch and see if your raven / Viking strat (or any for that matter) can work. Heck I would even bet 300$ that current top zergs vs current top terrans on WoL BL/infestor patch would lean in the favor of Zerg’s given enough preparation time to be back in « WoL » mode (lot less QoL in WoL, gotta take some time to adjust)
I would love to bet on that! BL Infestor was OP cus it was "the strongest composition" in the game, which wasn't true (at least not in a vacuum, strictly speaking).
Pros really just didn't experiment enough with Ravens/PDD until late HotS. Even in HotS, it took them that long to realize that it was busted, so it's not a surprise that it can take a while for pros to discover something really strong, especially if it's a less common composition like mech. (Similarly, they didn't realize BFH Mech was super strong until MLG Anaheim in WoL, and then it was nerfed right after).
All Mech players would have to do is mix in a few more Ravens than they did in the past. At that stage of the game, gas wasn't really a problem, and it'd be easy to build up to 10+ Ravens by that point that Zerg masses up BL/Infestor. You didn't even need to engage the BL/Infestor head on with mass Raven, you could just run around and drop auto turrets around their bases.
Pros don't always do everything optimally. Another example is MVP didn't think to stack his BCs and EMP them vs Squirtle, and he let his BCs get mass feedback'd.
You might lol at the idea, but everyone also laughed at mass Raven in HotS until GSL pros started doing it.
Pros didn't "discover" Ravens were strong. They got a huge buff with the seeker missile energy cost decrease from 125 to 75. Before that they were useless
On February 12 2024 20:01 Poopi wrote: Edit: lol about the comment above, you can ask current pros from today to play on BL/infestor patch and see if your raven / Viking strat (or any for that matter) can work. Heck I would even bet 300$ that current top zergs vs current top terrans on WoL BL/infestor patch would lean in the favor of Zerg’s given enough preparation time to be back in « WoL » mode (lot less QoL in WoL, gotta take some time to adjust)
I would love to bet on that! BL Infestor was OP cus it was "the strongest composition" in the game, which wasn't true (at least not in a vacuum, strictly speaking).
Pros really just didn't experiment enough with Ravens/PDD until late HotS. Even in HotS, it took them that long to realize that it was busted, so it's not a surprise that it can take a while for pros to discover something really strong, especially if it's a less common composition like mech. (Similarly, they didn't realize BFH Mech was super strong until MLG Anaheim in WoL, and then it was nerfed right after).
All Mech players would have to do is mix in a few more Ravens than they did in the past. At that stage of the game, gas wasn't really a problem, and it'd be easy to build up to 10+ Ravens by that point that Zerg masses up BL/Infestor. You didn't even need to engage the BL/Infestor head on with mass Raven, you could just run around and drop auto turrets around their bases.
Pros don't always do everything optimally. Another example is MVP didn't think to stack his BCs and EMP them vs Squirtle, and he let his BCs get mass feedback'd.
You might lol at the idea, but everyone also laughed at mass Raven in HotS until GSL pros started doing it.
Pros didn't "discover" Ravens were strong. They got a huge buff with the seeker missile energy cost decrease from 125 to 75. Before that they were useless
Mass seeker missile was indeed really strong, not exactly for the energy change though cus the range increased (but also delay increased). But PDD is really the thing that made mass ravens so OP. You don't need seeker missile with PDD, when it does a very similar thing (forces the opponent to pull units back, thus allowing you to get free shots and receiving less shots). Seeker missile just made Ravens even more busted and you'd use your extra energy on when you already have enough PDD to block all shots.
PDD is the ability that got completely removed first, while Seeker Missile remained in a much less potent (but also more guaranteed damage) form in AA-missile in LotV.
For example, this match Flash vs Curious played before the Seeker missile rework, PDD alone is enough:
And mass Raven (and Mech in general) was becoming really popular already in TvZ before the Seeker Missile rework
On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote: Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT.
In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say.
So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era
When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons
Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them.
The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable.
The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
Actually my statement is pretty close to reality
Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong)
Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc)
Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
only people that think this is true are people who have never gotten masters before lmao or are high on master3 ego.
The pro level is an entirely different game when compared to the master level players. All master rank means and will continue to be is really a bare-minimum macro competency check. And this "Requirement" for master league never changed throughout the years. It's one thing to talk about brand new game release, but by later WoL/early HoTs, you won't have masters, let alone GM level players winning GSLs lmfao.
You can just look around and see this. You literally have brand new players and other RTS players trying LoTV out and getting masters within a week. How do you think these "master" players will do against Pros who were in c/b BW team or even top talents in BW?
Do you really think master players can win vs MVP? He got 6k+ MMR when he tried out LOTV after taking break since early HOTS. Sure he might have kept up here and there but he took significant time off and guess what? He slotted back in even when he played casually. How about MC that made it to GSL code S when he worked largely as "Whyman" or other off-jobs instead of focusing on SC2?
People are confusing top line pro players getting better with average playerbase. IMO, the average "higher" playerbase (mid-high masterish) have stayed same in skill level since mid HOTS. MMR Deflation doesn't mean players have gotten better. Look at the population % equivalent of your ranks if you want that comparison.
Master league in overall picture of SC2 as RTS, is at extremely basic level of understanding the game. Very surface level at most. You are barely getting started with playing the game when you are entering master league.
Most master players do not have much game knowledge, scouting knowledge, unit interaction knowledge, map knowledge ect. Most of them have barely gotten started with optimizing macro at all. Pros do that on daily basis and have done it in BW and if you are going by GSL 2014ish, it's by far beyond what your regular ladder lotv master league players will know.
Us master players suck. And you should be high enough on MMR to realize that by now if you really are there or you are just blind to it.
On February 12 2024 19:42 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I find this interesting, because my experience is the opposite. As a former masters player in HotS, I feel opponents have became more skilled comparatively and I struggle to get from Diamond 1 to Masters 3.
At my peak at the end of HotS, I was high masters and facing off vs low GMs about half of my ladder games (and would win vs some of them). Early LotV, I was mid masters at 4500 MR, and now I vary from 3900 to 4200 MMR despite still playing now and then and trying to improve.
Ofc, this is probably because of the difference in focus between HotS and LotV, and the difference in our skillsets.
You may be confusing MMR deflation to it increasing skill level really. I haven't really noticed much difference in skill level from HOTS-LOTV era (altho I quit around 2017 LOTV), despite me being high master in hots and lotv myself at around 5-5.2k mmr back when I did play. I don't really notice anything drastically different if I hop on and play vs master or d1 players from time to time at all.
The entry requirement to master league never really changed and haven't really changed since HOTS even if MMR may have changed (4.2k is master requirement now, used to be 4.4-4.5k earlier LOTV)
On February 13 2024 08:29 jinjin5000 wrote: You may be confusing MMR deflation to it increasing skill level really. I haven't really noticed much difference in skill level from HOTS-LOTV era (altho I quit around 2017 LOTV), despite me being high master in hots and lotv myself at around 5-5.2k mmr back when I did play. I don't really notice anything drastically different if I hop on and play vs master or d1 players from time to time at all.
The entry requirement to master league never really changed and haven't really changed since HOTS even if MMR may have changed (4.2k is master requirement now, used to be 4.4-4.5k earlier LOTV)
I'm not sure if i understand the MMR deflation vs skill thing, do you mean that the skill is the same and it's just an arbitrary MMR number varying up and down?
I feel though that MMR deflation hasn't been in a constant steady decline. I remember that in early LotV, in the months I was playing it, the threshold to enter Masters used to be around 4k, but then it slowly rose season to season to 4400 and it did feel harder and harder skill wise. After a while, it seems to have dropped back down to 4200 From what I understand, in HotS there were too many players in masters (it was supposed to be top 2% but it was more like 5%), and in LotV they made it much closer to 2%, so early LotV the threshold was around 4k.
I do agree that masters is where you really start to understand the basics of the game enough to start "playing" the game (like making real strategies and decisions and reads), but I feel like low masters players have a bit more understanding of the game than in HotS and WoL, but it just might be harder for you to notice those small differences since you were a 5k mmr player. For example, I remember I used to be able to play random at a low masters level and would be able to pull off all sorts of stupid things, for example half-assing an all-in with 4 proxy barracks, and faking them out by not fully committing and triple expanding behind it and then being ahead. Or doing flimsy canon rushes and then double expanding behind it with secret bases and then just winning however I feel like. Or for example i would do silly strategies like open with mass raven/viking/banshee and expand all over the map.
Now though, I feel low masters players are significantly tighter when it comes to the important timings and mechanics. For example as a Terran now, when I'm playing seriously and not trying to goof around, if I slip up my macro for 10-15 seconds and I didn't swap my Barracks and Factor in order to make 1 Tank and make marines before the first blink stalkers come, I just die. I don't remember that level of unforgiveness when I was playing at mid/high masters in HotS. Since early LotV, like 6 years ago, I haven't once been able to make it back into masters.
In my exp, Diamond 1 players is where mid-masters used to be in HotS or early LotV. I think another example why I believe this is because, back then when I would offrace (despite never learning or practicing Protoss or Zerg), i could still just wing it and focus on macro and still be ranked low masters. But in LotV if i try to macro and wing it, I only got Diamond 3 with them.
I feel like if it's purely MMR deflation and the skill hasn't increased, then I should still be mid or high masters like in HotS
On February 13 2024 08:29 jinjin5000 wrote: Do you really think master players can win vs MVP? He got 6k+ MMR when he tried out LOTV after taking break since early HOTS. Sure he might have kept up here and there but he took significant time off and guess what? He slotted back in even when he played casually. How about MC that made it to GSL code S when he worked largely as "Whyman" or other off-jobs instead of focusing on SC2?
That's actually super cool, I didn't know that. Definitely makes me appreciate and trust that early SC2 games were still relatively high level. I suppose another piece of evidence is, the Gamers8 legends match where MC beat Stephano pretty handily. Stephano isn't competing seriously anymore, but he still enters and qualifies for group stages of tournaments sometimes, meaning he's at least a semi-pro level. So MC being able to beat Stephano despite being much less practiced really proves that the capability of the person is a huge factor, their relative skill doesn't just "freeze" in time when they stopped playing while other players get comparatively better.
I wonder if this applies backwards as much though. If Serral is dominating the scene so hard now, including usually beating Maru, then does that heavily imply that despite the lack of the Kespa-era infrastructure like proper teams, coaches, more fame and viewership etc., that Serral would likely be at the top back then too?
That also reminds me, in 2019-2021 there had been old players like Bomber Taeja MMA trying to qualify for GSL. Perhaps it's because the scene seemed decently promising, since 2016-2018 were still pretty decent years, with WCs like Blizzcon actually increasing the prize pool, rather than the scene purely declining, and maybe SC2 in 2019 seemed like it might be a decent prospect and attracted those old players to try again.
And heck, players like Ryung DID eventually breakthrough and qualify, and still manage to qualify a decent amount of times (like 1/3 to 1/2 of GSL seasons). And to a lesser extent players like Keen even find success qualifying once each year or almost each year. I wonder if MMA and Taeja stuck with it a bit longer and managed to qualify once, if it'd help motivate and give them the momentum they need to be where Ryung is now, and perhaps even higher.
5 years or so ago you needed 5500-5600 MMR to reach GM. Nowadays you need like 500 MMR less. But the skill required to reach GM remains roughly the same (evidenced by me being 200-300 MMR below that threshold back then and now)
On February 13 2024 19:52 Charoisaur wrote: 5 years or so ago you needed 5500-5600 MMR to reach GM. Nowadays you need like 500 MMR less. But the skill required to reach GM remains roughly the same (evidenced by me being 200-300 MMR below that threshold back then and now)
I see, thanks for clarifying that does make sense regarding the MMR varying and it isn't directly tied to the skill.
I'm curious though in regards to the other thing im wondering about about players getting better, do you still play regularly each year? If you do then i feel you maintaining being close to GM might indicate you're also slightly improving comparatively, but skill is relatively the same since everyone else playing regularly is also improving slightly.
I do play now and then but not really regularly, and i've been falling farther and farther from making low masters. I don't think I've been getting worse at macro, mechanics, or apm, but that the difficulty is that other players are improving slowly comparatively in macro/mechanics/apm and also understanding of the game.
On February 13 2024 19:52 Charoisaur wrote: 5 years or so ago you needed 5500-5600 MMR to reach GM. Nowadays you need like 500 MMR less. But the skill required to reach GM remains roughly the same (evidenced by me being 200-300 MMR below that threshold back then and now)
I see, thanks for clarifying that does make sense regarding the MMR varying and it isn't directly tied to the skill.
I'm curious though in regards to the other thing im wondering about about players getting better, do you still play regularly each year? If you do then i feel you maintaining being close to GM might indicate you're also slightly improving comparatively, but skill is relatively the same since everyone else playing regularly is also improving slightly.
I do play now and then but not really regularly, and i've been falling farther and farther from making low masters. I don't think I've been getting worse at macro, mechanics, or apm, but that the difficulty is that other players are improving slowly comparatively in macro/mechanics/apm and also understanding of the game.
Still play pretty regularly, probably less than I used to back when I was 5.3k but still enough to maintain my skill level
I don't see like quantized top 10, or top 5 of GOATS. For me it seems more fair to establish a league of great, legendary players, which could consists of 13, or 16 players or whatever else, but it is impossible to lock it on Top 10. I am personally Rain fan, but I will make a crime if I just put Rain in top 10 and leave MC in "honoraable mentions" out of 10. And if we put MVP, we also cannot eliminate Nestea just like that. They all have a speciall place in this League of the greatest.
On February 17 2024 20:20 Veluvian wrote: I don't see like quantized top 10, or top 5 of GOATS. For me it seems more fair to establish a league of great, legendary players, which could consists of 13, or 16 players or whatever else, but it is impossible to lock it on Top 10. I am personally Rain fan, but I will make a crime if I just put Rain in top 10 and leave MC in "honoraable mentions" out of 10. And if we put MVP, we also cannot eliminate Nestea just like that. They all have a speciall place in this League of the greatest.
People just like to use 10 or 5 because that's the convention when it comes to these sorts of things. I personally did a deep dive on 15 candidates and have extended my rankings out past the top 20, but I'll be going into the near misses etc once the series is done.
On February 17 2024 20:20 Veluvian wrote: I don't see like quantized top 10, or top 5 of GOATS. For me it seems more fair to establish a league of great, legendary players, which could consists of 13, or 16 players or whatever else, but it is impossible to lock it on Top 10. I am personally Rain fan, but I will make a crime if I just put Rain in top 10 and leave MC in "honoraable mentions" out of 10. And if we put MVP, we also cannot eliminate Nestea just like that. They all have a speciall place in this League of the greatest.
People just like to use 10 or 5 because that's the convention when it comes to these sorts of things. I personally did a deep dive on 15 candidates and have extended my rankings out past the top 20, but I'll be going into the near misses etc once the series is done.
On February 17 2024 20:20 Veluvian wrote: I don't see like quantized top 10, or top 5 of GOATS. For me it seems more fair to establish a league of great, legendary players, which could consists of 13, or 16 players or whatever else, but it is impossible to lock it on Top 10. I am personally Rain fan, but I will make a crime if I just put Rain in top 10 and leave MC in "honoraable mentions" out of 10. And if we put MVP, we also cannot eliminate Nestea just like that. They all have a speciall place in this League of the greatest.
People just like to use 10 or 5 because that's the convention when it comes to these sorts of things. I personally did a deep dive on 15 candidates and have extended my rankings out past the top 20, but I'll be going into the near misses etc once the series is done.
Yea.. leaving Mvp or Dark is hard
MC and Nestea > MvP. ( ya I said it)
Those 2 won almost as much as mvp during WOL when terran was clearly the stronger race and most of the maps were terran favoured
On February 17 2024 20:20 Veluvian wrote: I don't see like quantized top 10, or top 5 of GOATS. For me it seems more fair to establish a league of great, legendary players, which could consists of 13, or 16 players or whatever else, but it is impossible to lock it on Top 10. I am personally Rain fan, but I will make a crime if I just put Rain in top 10 and leave MC in "honoraable mentions" out of 10. And if we put MVP, we also cannot eliminate Nestea just like that. They all have a speciall place in this League of the greatest.
People just like to use 10 or 5 because that's the convention when it comes to these sorts of things. I personally did a deep dive on 15 candidates and have extended my rankings out past the top 20, but I'll be going into the near misses etc once the series is done.
Yea.. leaving Mvp or Dark is hard
MC and Nestea > MvP. ( ya I said it)
Those 2 won almost as much as mvp during WOL when terran was clearly the stronger race and most of the maps were terran favoured
On February 17 2024 20:20 Veluvian wrote: I don't see like quantized top 10, or top 5 of GOATS. For me it seems more fair to establish a league of great, legendary players, which could consists of 13, or 16 players or whatever else, but it is impossible to lock it on Top 10. I am personally Rain fan, but I will make a crime if I just put Rain in top 10 and leave MC in "honoraable mentions" out of 10. And if we put MVP, we also cannot eliminate Nestea just like that. They all have a speciall place in this League of the greatest.
People just like to use 10 or 5 because that's the convention when it comes to these sorts of things. I personally did a deep dive on 15 candidates and have extended my rankings out past the top 20, but I'll be going into the near misses etc once the series is done.
Yea.. leaving Mvp or Dark is hard
MC and Nestea > MvP. ( ya I said it)
Those 2 won almost as much as mvp during WOL when terran was clearly the stronger race and most of the maps were terran favoured
That's not true at all. They almost won as much as Mvp...in GSL. In 2011. They don't have a fraction of Mvp's international results, and never did as well in GSL in 2012. MC made the finals but got swept, whereas Mvp made two finals and won one, and made it to G7 in the one he lost.
On February 19 2024 11:16 Blargh wrote: What if Miz just ghosts us, leaves it at #5, knowing they forked up by leaving Rogue, Dark, Mvp, Maru, and Serral with only 4 left.
THAT would be twist. Not even George R.R. Martin would've done that
On February 19 2024 11:16 Blargh wrote: What if Miz just ghosts us, leaves it at #5, knowing they forked up by leaving Rogue, Dark, Mvp, Maru, and Serral with only 4 left.
What if Miz just adds an extra rank called GOAT? Then there'll be space! Also, think of all the drama. It'd be glorious.
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Life"
for including that Huk picture.
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