|
On February 07 2024 09:22 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 09:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote:
if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one. Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc). I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore. However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era. I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2. There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era.
Not addressing any other aspect of this, but is the consensus in the BW community that the skill level has gone up even after the collapse of Kespa? That would suprise me
|
Northern Ireland24761 Posts
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article Show nested quote + From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
Like all great writers Miz knows how to use a red herring
|
On February 07 2024 09:29 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 09:22 jinjin5000 wrote:On February 07 2024 09:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote:
if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one. Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc). I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore. However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era. I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2. There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era. Not addressing any other aspect of this, but is the consensus in the BW community that the skill level has gone up even after the collapse of Kespa? That would suprise me
There's separation between "skill" category and only kespa era achievements are discussed really (competitive peak)
Consensus is skill level peaked by far mechanically wise in kespa era but optimization, knowledge, meta, army movement and usage of units advanced in current era
However, if the current vs past players played each other, the current player with more knowledge and meta/optimization would probably win most games out of 10, but once the past mechanically ahead player had time to adapt and analyze the current playerd, current players would have no chance.
Pros generally accept competitive/mechanical ability peaked in kespa era and while current era has more knowledge of game, it should not compared due to difference in player pool/competitiveness in kespa era since current players are more of closed off loop. Meta changes much faster in current era tho thanks to sharing of knowledge and free practice environment
People generally only count kespa era achievements when discussing due to that and are treated separately/below past
There's heavy emphasis on separation of knowledge/meta advancements to mechanical ability/driving advancements/competitiveness
|
On February 07 2024 09:22 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 09:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote:
if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one. Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc). I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore. However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era. I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2. There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era.
Oh i see, yeah that makes sense. I agree that Innovation at least should be closer to Serral, Innovation really was the GOAT in 2017, when he won that final GSL vs sOs. At the time, the winner of that GSL would basically become the GOAT. sOs would complete his achievements list with a GSL win and put up an argument as GOAT over Inno, or Innovation would continue his dominance with a 3rd GSL win (plus the WCS 2013 S1 win over sOs, soulkey, MVP) and thus put him clearly ahead of the only other person with an argument above him - MVP (since Inno won tons of other stuff and also dominated longer than MVP). So I'm surprised Innovation is only #5 and not #4. Innovation even has an argument to be on par with or above Rogue, since Rogue dominated in a weaker era and when Zerg was a bit OP.
But uh, after reading Pandain's post...
On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article Show nested quote + From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well.
Well shit, i guess you figured it out. MVP has to be #4 then unless the wording here is misleading us in some way.
It would be really weird to me though for any kind of metric system to put soO above Dark... Dark is just a way better soO. And Innovation is a better MVP.
Also, I know people hype up that "miracle" comeback MVP pulled off vs Inno when it was like, 20 SCVs vs 50 SCVs or something after Inno's hellbat drops, but as a Terran player I knew it wasn't over yet and the casters were too quick to dismiss the game as over. While impressive, you guys have to remember how TvT was back then. Tanks were still really strong without Libs and Interference Matrix, so regardless of the economy difference, as long as you were able to set up a few tanks in front of your 3 bases, you could pretty much have a max economy and it would be very hard to do a straight up attack (no rush to take a 4th since bases don't mine out fast like in LotV). The game of TvT back then was basically, as long as you kept track of the opponent's movement and sieged in time in the right place, then you could survive, and that's what we saw MVP do. The only things you had to watch out for was to have AA in place or be ready to unsiege vs bio/hellbat dropping on your tanks, and for a death drop into your main which you only need a floating barracks and a couple turrets to cover, or sensor tower. I know it might sound like I'm simplifying the MU, but i really think the MU was that straightforward back then. The map was also Akilon wastes, which had its 3rd tucked pretty nicely into a safe spot with a tight choke easily covered by tanks from the main.
On February 07 2024 09:32 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 09:14 Pandain wrote:Okay, the Dark-Mvp debate is awesome in a vacuum, but through textual analysis of the article its clear who Mizu will put as #4 (or at least higher than the other): Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. Like all great writers Miz knows how to use a red herring
Shit yeah, maybe this is it.
|
There was something missing for me in the articles. I looked up your synonyms for the word "greatness" and at a quick glance, out of 30 synonyms that showed up, I think the articles focus on about 3. Significance, standing, and noteworthiness.
What about brilliance, genius, prowess, talent? Worth, fame, mastery, artistry? Virtuosity, flair, skill, finesse? Power, adaptness, proficiency, calibre? Grandeur, magnificence, impressiveness? Splendour, gloriouness, and majesty?
I feel like only in some few parts of the main body these themes are visible, and usually faintly. There are two short paragraphs on inno being good at macro. For me, what makes inno the greatest of all time, is the inspiration he gave me, and I believe others to try your best. When others were sloppy (think Dark's macro), taking the easy way out (think the players picking and choosing the regions, tournaments they play in based on likelihood to win), succumbing to jealousy, rage, anger (think Serral cursing something under his breath after lost or narrowly won games), losing footing, being complacent and too sure of oneself (think Maru smiling lostly after losing in stupid ways in all those ro4 and ro8 matches, for example forgetting the second depot vs sOs at blizzcon), inno was calmly, respectfully, doing his own thing.
It's a spectator sport. I believe the leaving of such great players like inno, soo, zest, has dramatically decreased the viewing numbers. People just don't want to watch as much. So what that today's players pad the stats much better than a few years ago, if the viewership is low? So what that they are able to execute 3 attacks at once, produce units, and defend at the same time, with rapid fire, custom hotkeys, and increased windows key repeat rate, if that inspires no one to play? If the strategy, preparation, inspiration, genius, brilliance, magnificence, and greatness are not there?
For me, inno is #1. I can relate him to all the synonyms of the word greatness. I can watch him and be inspired. Today's goats, do it for me when it comes to numbers alone, money won, excel tables of win rates. They do not however inspire me to play. They less often than a few years ago inspire me to watch.
As someone said on Zest's thread, how good can you really be when 10-15 "pros", "play". Both in terms of skill, and in terms of greatness as a player.
Arsene Wenger on Zidane: "What I think is Zidane, is like he has been touched by the angels, in his bed when he was a kid, you know. And everything he does is successful. But what I believe as well, what I admire with him, he has kept humility, during his career and after now as well. As a coach he never teaches lessons to people. His feet on the ground. And you have to respect more, even more, the man he is, than all the rest. In football you win and you lose, but the man is always there."
For me inno is the greatest! And mvp is second.
|
On February 07 2024 03:33 Fango wrote:
INno and Serral are probably the only two players that inspire fear from seemingly their most standard macro game.
Guys like Maru, Reynor, or Zest might have their own flair to the game, but INno and Serral at their peaks felt unbeatable when doing the exact same thing as everyone else.
Thats one of the biggest things that matter to me in these discussions. When Inno was in his prime, it felt that everybody feared him like no other. They didnt fear him just because all-ins or something gimmicky, but just his ability to overwhelm his opponents with his god-like macro and mechanics. Its hard to say objectively that he should be in top 3 in the GOAT list, but for me he is up there. He is also been one of the only players in the planet that can put Serral in serious test in macro/mechanics- apartment.
Then became Serral. After 2018 nobody wanted to face him again, maybe except Reynor. He won bo3+ matches against everybody for a year in a row or something ? And he has been practically top-1 contender in every tournament he goes into. Not just top-8, top-5 or top-3. Everyone thinks he should be at least in the finals if not winning. He has winning record against every opponent that he has faced. Thats just insane. He is the GOAT for me. Yeah, of course the era is not as competetive than it was before, but I still think the consistency and skill-level are unparallel (well if Life hadnt...yada yada).
Then there are of course the other two, Rogue and Maru. They are of course worthy in these discussions and prolly either of those will top Miz:s list too. Rogue is an excellent player and the most clutch in biggest tournaments. But still I have hard time getting the GOAT-feelings from him. He is very, very good, but is just so uninspiring and imo lacks the star-quality and the consistency for me. Never gotten the "Wow he is the best"-feeling from him.
Maru on the other hand can play like a god (Korea) or be just good (Outside Korea). He has insane mechanical skills and has the unmatched killer instinct to kill enemies when they are in their weakest. He is very consistent and doesnt seem to have big weaknesses in his game. He has much more star-quality than Rogue, but also performs much worse than him in the International tournaments. I have never seen Maru play as well outside Korea than when doing GSL. Can you really be the GOAT, if you cant win outside your country ?
These are just my biased opinions of course. Big thanks to Miz for making the list. Its very well done and interesting to read all these "journals" from you. It must have been a monumental task and we are very happy to read them 
PS. Whats this MVP nonsense at place 4 ? Its clearly Dark, otherwise the list doesnt make any sense. MVP is just bit overrated, although legendary player of course.
|
Northern Ireland24761 Posts
On February 07 2024 09:48 Gomas wrote:
There was something missing for me in the articles. I looked up your synonyms for the word "greatness" and at a quick glance, out of 30 synonyms that showed up, I think the articles focus on about 3. Significance, standing, and noteworthiness.
What about brilliance, genius, prowess, talent? Worth, fame, mastery, artistry? Virtuosity, flair, skill, finesse? Power, adaptness, proficiency, calibre? Grandeur, magnificence, impressiveness? Splendour, gloriouness, and majesty?
I feel like only in some few parts of the main body these themes are visible, and usually faintly. There are two short paragraphs on inno being good at macro. For me, what makes inno the greatest of all time, is the inspiration he gave me, and I believe others to try your best. When others were sloppy (think Dark's macro), taking the easy way out (think the players picking and choosing the regions, tournaments they play in based on likelihood to win), succumbing to jealousy, rage, anger (think Serral cursing something under his breath after lost or narrowly won games), losing footing, being complacent and too sure of oneself (think Maru smiling lostly after losing in stupid ways in all those ro4 and ro8 matches, for example forgetting the second depot vs sOs at blizzcon), inno was calmly, respectfully, doing his own thing.
It's a spectator sport. I believe the leaving of such great players like inno, soo, zest, has dramatically decreased the viewing numbers. People just don't want to watch as much. So what that today's players pad the stats much better than a few years ago, if the viewership is low? So what that they are able to execute 3 attacks at once, produce units, and defend at the same time, with rapid fire, custom hotkeys, and increased windows key repeat rate, if that inspires no one to play? If the strategy, preparation, inspiration, genius, brilliance, magnificence, and greatness are not there?
For me, inno is #1. I can relate him to all the synonyms of the word greatness. I can watch him and be inspired. Today's goats, do it for me when it comes to numbers alone, money won, excel tables of win rates. They do not however inspire me to play. They less often than a few years ago inspire me to watch.
As someone said on Zest's thread, how good can you really be when 10-15 "pros", "play". Both in terms of skill, and in terms of greatness as a player.
Arsene Wenger on Zidane: "What I think is Zidane, is like he has been touched by the angels, in his bed when he was a kid, you know. And everything he does is successful. But what I believe as well, what I admire with him, he has kept humility, during his career and after now as well. As a coach he never teaches lessons to people. His feet on the ground. And you have to respect more, even more, the man he is, than all the rest. In football you win and you lose, but the man is always there."
For me inno is the greatest! And mvp is second.
Well said, and a lot resonates with me.
One thing I would say is awe and novelty are something of a finite resource in a hobby we’ve been following in some instances for over a decade. It’s why nostalgia is such a potent emotion, we’re not really pining for the thing, we’re pining for those novel feelings it elicited most of the time.
Without a bit of recalibrating we can end up biased to whoever first came along, or trapped in ‘football was better back in the day’ kind of thinking
|
On February 07 2024 09:33 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 09:29 Pandain wrote:On February 07 2024 09:22 jinjin5000 wrote:On February 07 2024 09:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote:
if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game.
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one. Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc). I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore. However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era. I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2. There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era. Not addressing any other aspect of this, but is the consensus in the BW community that the skill level has gone up even after the collapse of Kespa? That would suprise me There's separation between "skill" category and only kespa era achievements are discussed really (competitive peak) Consensus is skill level peaked by far mechanically wise in kespa era but optimization, knowledge, meta, army movement and usage of units advanced in current era However, if the current vs past players played each other, the current player with more knowledge and meta/optimization would probably win most games out of 10, but once the past mechanically ahead player had time to adapt and analyze the current playerd, current players would have no chance. Pros generally accept competitive/mechanical ability peaked in kespa era and while current era has more knowledge of game, it should not compared due to difference in player pool/competitiveness in kespa era since current players are more of closed off loop. Meta changes much faster in current era tho thanks to sharing of knowledge and free practice environment People generally only count kespa era achievements when discussing due to that and are treated separately/below past There's heavy emphasis on separation of knowledge/meta advancements to mechanical ability/driving advancements/competitiveness
Very interesting, thanks for that!
|
On February 07 2024 09:48 Gomas wrote:
There was something missing for me in the articles. I looked up your synonyms for the word "greatness" and at a quick glance, out of 30 synonyms that showed up, I think the articles focus on about 3. Significance, standing, and noteworthiness.
What about brilliance, genius, prowess, talent? Worth, fame, mastery, artistry? Virtuosity, flair, skill, finesse? Power, adaptness, proficiency, calibre? Grandeur, magnificence, impressiveness? Splendour, gloriouness, and majesty?
I feel like only in some few parts of the main body these themes are visible, and usually faintly. There are two short paragraphs on inno being good at macro. For me, what makes inno the greatest of all time, is the inspiration he gave me, and I believe others to try your best. When others were sloppy (think Dark's macro), taking the easy way out (think the players picking and choosing the regions, tournaments they play in based on likelihood to win), succumbing to jealousy, rage, anger (think Serral cursing something under his breath after lost or narrowly won games), losing footing, being complacent and too sure of oneself (think Maru smiling lostly after losing in stupid ways in all those ro4 and ro8 matches, for example forgetting the second depot vs sOs at blizzcon), inno was calmly, respectfully, doing his own thing.
It's a spectator sport. I believe the leaving of such great players like inno, soo, zest, has dramatically decreased the viewing numbers. People just don't want to watch as much. So what that today's players pad the stats much better than a few years ago, if the viewership is low? So what that they are able to execute 3 attacks at once, produce units, and defend at the same time, with rapid fire, custom hotkeys, and increased windows key repeat rate, if that inspires no one to play? If the strategy, preparation, inspiration, genius, brilliance, magnificence, and greatness are not there?
For me, inno is #1. I can relate him to all the synonyms of the word greatness. I can watch him and be inspired. Today's goats, do it for me when it comes to numbers alone, money won, excel tables of win rates. They do not however inspire me to play. They less often than a few years ago inspire me to watch.
As someone said on Zest's thread, how good can you really be when 10-15 "pros", "play". Both in terms of skill, and in terms of greatness as a player.
Arsene Wenger on Zidane: "What I think is Zidane, is like he has been touched by the angels, in his bed when he was a kid, you know. And everything he does is successful. But what I believe as well, what I admire with him, he has kept humility, during his career and after now as well. As a coach he never teaches lessons to people. His feet on the ground. And you have to respect more, even more, the man he is, than all the rest. In football you win and you lose, but the man is always there."
For me inno is the greatest! And mvp is second.
While I would agree that trophies and results alone aren't everything about "greatness" and that hard to quantify things as "calibre" or "grandeur" should definetly play a big role, I think you are also cutting some things short.
First of all: It is easier to be creative when the overall skill-level is lower and the game is newer. Because obviously there are more things to be found when...well, they are not found yet. My first thought about that was about Handball and the Kempa-trick. Don't want to go too deep into it, but for those interested just look it up on Youtube. It is a really impressive and cool maneuver you can do, looks amazing. But it was found 30-40 years ago or something like that. Todays player don't come up with cool tricks like that - because there are in the end only so many ways you can throw a ball at a goal. Does that mean todays players are less creative?
Same works for RTS. When the game is new, inventing a tower rush looks amazingly creative. But almost 15 years into the game, the last big Addon being 6-7 years ago...you can't find groundbreaking things like that. Todays innovation are far more subtle and about slight optimizations and they usually don't look as cool as the earlier stuff - but you could argue it is harder to be creative today than in any other moment in SC2 history.
I also have the feeling that in most RTS the GOAT(-contenders) are usually not the ones that come up with the groundbreaking ideas, but they are the ones that are best at executing it.
As for your personal comparisons between Inno and the rest: This feels like an extreme bias. Are you suggesting Innovation never did something stupid or made a weird mistake? And Serral showing some emotions (which you really picked a weird example for...) isn't reflecting on anything, neither good nor bad. Especially when you then pick Zidane as an example for being a GOAT, a guy who also got very famous for headbutting an opponent...did that take away anything from his status?
The viewership thing also has nothing to do with the playerbase. Sorry, but if the "Kespa era" was so awe-inspiring, why exactly did Proleague shutdown then? You say "todays players" don't inspire to play the game (which is really subjective), but if you want to blame low-viewer numbers on players, I would say you have to blame Innovation and co. for that - it was their "generation" that sunk the ship.
In reality, SC2 just wasn't as exciting for people to watch than e.g. LoL or DotA2. Why that is is a topic for another discussion (I personally think people just enjoy team games more than solo games), but it clearly is NOT the fault of todays top pros because they are "not awe-inspiring" enough.
Lastly, if we talk about "grandeur", I think Serral would be a perfect example for that. Because prime Serral looks just invincible, like the closest a legit player has ever come to look like he cheats. But that is not quantifiable and also might just be me being a Zerg enjoyer - which should show you how subjective it is. On the other hand, I never got impressed with marine-splitting or doom-dropping. In fact, seeing Terrans just pick up their stuff and drop shit into the opponents base while the Protoss army awkwardly tries to catch up only ever gave me a feeling of "man, I really don't want to play this game"...but a terran enjoyer might see that completly different.
And just to clarify: Don't hating on Innovation here. He is literally the only terran player I ever could stand to watch
|
If Life didn't get persecuted for what he did, no doubt he would be 1
|
On February 07 2024 10:07 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 09:48 Gomas wrote:
There was something missing for me in the articles. I looked up your synonyms for the word "greatness" and at a quick glance, out of 30 synonyms that showed up, I think the articles focus on about 3. Significance, standing, and noteworthiness.
What about brilliance, genius, prowess, talent? Worth, fame, mastery, artistry? Virtuosity, flair, skill, finesse? Power, adaptness, proficiency, calibre? Grandeur, magnificence, impressiveness? Splendour, gloriouness, and majesty?
I feel like only in some few parts of the main body these themes are visible, and usually faintly. There are two short paragraphs on inno being good at macro. For me, what makes inno the greatest of all time, is the inspiration he gave me, and I believe others to try your best. When others were sloppy (think Dark's macro), taking the easy way out (think the players picking and choosing the regions, tournaments they play in based on likelihood to win), succumbing to jealousy, rage, anger (think Serral cursing something under his breath after lost or narrowly won games), losing footing, being complacent and too sure of oneself (think Maru smiling lostly after losing in stupid ways in all those ro4 and ro8 matches, for example forgetting the second depot vs sOs at blizzcon), inno was calmly, respectfully, doing his own thing.
It's a spectator sport. I believe the leaving of such great players like inno, soo, zest, has dramatically decreased the viewing numbers. People just don't want to watch as much. So what that today's players pad the stats much better than a few years ago, if the viewership is low? So what that they are able to execute 3 attacks at once, produce units, and defend at the same time, with rapid fire, custom hotkeys, and increased windows key repeat rate, if that inspires no one to play? If the strategy, preparation, inspiration, genius, brilliance, magnificence, and greatness are not there?
For me, inno is #1. I can relate him to all the synonyms of the word greatness. I can watch him and be inspired. Today's goats, do it for me when it comes to numbers alone, money won, excel tables of win rates. They do not however inspire me to play. They less often than a few years ago inspire me to watch.
As someone said on Zest's thread, how good can you really be when 10-15 "pros", "play". Both in terms of skill, and in terms of greatness as a player.
Arsene Wenger on Zidane: "What I think is Zidane, is like he has been touched by the angels, in his bed when he was a kid, you know. And everything he does is successful. But what I believe as well, what I admire with him, he has kept humility, during his career and after now as well. As a coach he never teaches lessons to people. His feet on the ground. And you have to respect more, even more, the man he is, than all the rest. In football you win and you lose, but the man is always there."
For me inno is the greatest! And mvp is second.
Well said, and a lot resonates with me. One thing I would say is awe and novelty are something of a finite resource in a hobby we’ve been following in some instances for over a decade. It’s why nostalgia is such a potent emotion, we’re not really pining for the thing, we’re pining for those novel feelings it elicited most of the time. Without a bit of recalibrating we can end up biased to whoever first came along, or trapped in ‘football was better back in the day’ kind of thinking
That's why Scarlett is the greatest foreigner of all time :D
|
On February 07 2024 11:31 yezzir88 wrote:
If Life didn't get persecuted for what he did, no doubt he would be 1
Persecution sounds like he was a victim of something. He was not.
|
On February 06 2024 21:12 Durnuu wrote:
Dark didn't make the cut, you can quote me on this
I will quote you on it, but you are dead wrong.
When Dark is the next name listed, I’ll bring up this terrible take for ya. Don’t worry.
Anyone think Reynor should be top 10? World Champion, long period of being a top 3 player in the world. I would have put him at 9/10.
|
I simply disagree with the notion that "skill level peaked at Kespa era".
Just sharing some personal experience. I started watching SC2 pro tournaments since 2011 and gradually stopped around 2016-2017 due to personal interests shifted to other games. My interest in SC2 was revitalized in 2023 by Oliveira's miracle run and since then I've spent months watching most of the important games/series from 2017-2022 that I missed, trying to catch up with current scene.
I think just in terms of raw mechanical skills, Serral/Maru/Reynor/Clem/Dark at their peak forms in last 4-5 years are simply the best in the history of the game. I remember my jaws was on the floor when I watched almost any TvZ series between these players and thinking to myself "What the hell?I can't believe Starcraft II has evolved to this kind of skill level. Any games longer than 20mins here would be top of TL's best game of the year list back then." The high level of macro, micro and multitasking these players displayed especially in those late game matches are unlike anything I've ever seen.
When I go back and watch the old classic series in my memory from Kespa years (for example, Taeja vs soO, Innovation vs Life, Dark vs Byun, etc), I started to notice all kinds of small mistakes, sloppy plays, careless maneuvers, imperfection in micro/macro, cluelessness in late game, etc, so much more than the recent players. I was however often pleasantly surprised by how interesting and diverse the meta strategies could be back then.
I agree that the overall talent pool of SC2 has been drying up since 2018, but I believe the absolute top3-5 players are only getting better over the years. Drop current Serral back into any era and he will still dominate after some time of practice and adaptation.
Maru and Serral at their peak forms are two players that I consider to be reaching the verge of theoretically perfect SC2 player. Macroµ, strategic mind&raw skills, early game/late game, offense&defense, they have it all and shows no noticeable weakness. Only player that showed flashes of this kind of perfection from earlier era was Life. Shamed at how his career turned out.
|
Northern Ireland24761 Posts
On February 07 2024 12:57 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 21:12 Durnuu wrote:
Dark didn't make the cut, you can quote me on this I will quote you on it, but you are dead wrong. When Dark is the next name listed, I’ll bring up this terrible take for ya. Don’t worry. Anyone think Reynor should be top 10? World Champion, long period of being a top 3 player in the world. I would have put him at 9/10.
Nah, he hit his stride just a bit too late for me. Probably somewhere in the top 15/20.
Not his fault but when Serral/Rogue were first consistently winning big guys like TY, Stats, Classic were all not just active, but in good shape too. Serral lost a WESG in what proved Innovation’s last big hurrah.
Rogue and Inno are gone, Classic, TY and Stats were absent for periods with military and so far only Classic has really shown much. And the only player to really step up to that championship calibre is Clem, it doesn’t quite compensate.
The scene didn’t just drop off a complete cliff in the post-Kespa era, but there is a gradual decline. By 2017/18 the field is a little thinner, but there’s still enough championship calibre players, by 2020 a little thinner, and by 2023 and Reynor’s Gamer’s 8 it’s looking pretty thin indeed. Hey I’m still hyped for Katowice coming up, but the GOAT angle isn’t really going to be a factor in my thinking watching. I don’t think Serral winning will bump him above Maru, or Maru winning will make him the undisputed GOAT, or Reynor breaks into the top 10 with another.
Hey I’m the (second, don’t @ me) biggest Trap fan around and think he’s hugely underrated having carried Toss on his back for about 2 years, but I still would struggle to stick him in the top 10 too.
So long as people stop saying Parting was better I’ll be a happy man :p
|
On February 07 2024 13:55 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 12:57 onPHYRE wrote:On February 06 2024 21:12 Durnuu wrote:
Dark didn't make the cut, you can quote me on this I will quote you on it, but you are dead wrong. When Dark is the next name listed, I’ll bring up this terrible take for ya. Don’t worry. Anyone think Reynor should be top 10? World Champion, long period of being a top 3 player in the world. I would have put him at 9/10. Nah, he hit his stride just a bit too late for me. Probably somewhere in the top 15/20. Not his fault but when Serral/Rogue were first consistently winning big guys like TY, Stats, Classic were all not just active, but in good shape too. Serral lost a WESG in what proved Innovation’s last big hurrah. Rogue and Inno are gone, Classic, TY and Stats were absent for periods with military and so far only Classic has really shown much. And the only player to really step up to that championship calibre is Clem, it doesn’t quite compensate. The scene didn’t just drop off a complete cliff in the post-Kespa era, but there is a gradual decline. By 2017/18 the field is a little thinner, but there’s still enough championship calibre players, by 2020 a little thinner, and by 2023 and Reynor’s Gamer’s 8 it’s looking pretty thin indeed. Hey I’m still hyped for Katowice coming up, but the GOAT angle isn’t really going to be a factor in my thinking watching. I don’t think Serral winning will bump him above Maru, or Maru winning will make him the undisputed GOAT, or Reynor breaks into the top 10 with another. Hey I’m the (second, don’t @ me) biggest Trap fan around and think he’s hugely underrated having carried Toss on his back for about 2 years, but I still would struggle to stick him in the top 10 too. So long as people stop saying Parting was better I’ll be a happy man :p
Yeah it's pretty unfortunate, but i didn't even realize that Reynor technically has 2 WC. Which would be pretty huge, but didn't feel huge at all even though I knew that he did... whereas sOs winning 3 WC is absolutely ridiculous for example, because they happened during the most competitive years of SC2, and also past the early chaoticness of WoL. I would probably put Reynor in the top 15-20 as well, but no higher than ~15. I would put players like Taeja, Stats, MVP/Dark, MC above him (I'm listing players who haven't made this Top 10). Reynor is around or slightly below players like MMA/Polt/Nestea for me.
Not to discredit Reynor's wins, but in terms of "greatness", I think balance should also be kept into account, Zerg has been OP for ~2 years around 2018-2020 (not trying to whine, but referencing what top players have said and what the balance patches have tried to address), and before/after that zerg is probably still the strongest race at the top top level. Maybe only now in the last year with the last 1-2 balance patches has Zerg maybe finally become balanced.
I definitely do think Trap is underrated and often forgotten, considering how consistent he was with Protoss, the most unforgiving and inconsistent race, even winning a few premiere tournaments (including GSL Super, and ESL/DH events where foreigner players like Serral competed), especially when considering how Protoss has been the weakest race and especially especially when considering how imba PvZ was mid-LotV. Like heck, can you imagine ANY protoss beating Serral in a Bo7? It sounds pretty impossible, but Trap did it. With Protoss.
Also, considering who Trap lost to when he failed to win GSL Code S's: often Maru/Rogue/Dark. These are very good losses for him, and if they weren't around he could have won at least 1 Code S to round out his career.
|
For me, I do think the coming IEM and Esport World Cup will have an impact in the GOAT debate depending on who win them. Reynor already fulfilled his share of performance in WC-level tournament with 2 wins and 2 2nd place, the issue for is the lack of accomplishment in the other premiere tournaments. Other than Gamers8 victory, his best result in 2023 is Ro4 in ESL Summer, and his latest premiere victory was HSC22, and before that was the DH Summer 2021. Couple that with how Reynor often say that hes not committing his all into the game all the time, taking break or doing something else, is not GOAT-material imo but we cant deny the accomplishment.
There is certain parallel between Reynor - Serral and Maru - Rogue where both Reynor and Rogue shows that they are much better than usual self at WC-title event but not as consistently great in other tournaments. While Maru and Serral are more consistent overall, but having trouble at getting the job done at such events. And in both cases, they happened to be teammates so they would practice against each other a lot, knowing each other style and strategy and are pretty even head-to-head (although Reynor record against Serral hasnt been great for the last 2 years with 1-7 in matches and 4-20 in games).
So yes, Reynor can make his case for GOAT, at the moment I would give him somewhere between 11-13 rank.
|
On February 07 2024 13:15 Nasigil wrote:
I simply disagree with the notion that "skill level peaked at Kespa era".
Just sharing some personal experience. I started watching SC2 pro tournaments since 2011 and gradually stopped around 2016-2017 due to personal interests shifted to other games. My interest in SC2 was revitalized in 2023 by Oliveira's miracle run and since then I've spent months watching most of the important games/series from 2017-2022 that I missed, trying to catch up with current scene.
I think just in terms of raw mechanical skills, Serral/Maru/Reynor/Clem/Dark at their peak forms in last 4-5 years are simply the best in the history of the game. I remember my jaws was on the floor when I watched almost any TvZ series between these players and thinking to myself "What the hell?I can't believe Starcraft II has evolved to this kind of skill level. Any games longer than 20mins here would be top of TL's best game of the year list back then." The high level of macro, micro and multitasking these players displayed especially in those late game matches are unlike anything I've ever seen.
When I go back and watch the old classic series in my memory from Kespa years (for example, Taeja vs soO, Innovation vs Life, Dark vs Byun, etc), I started to notice all kinds of small mistakes, sloppy plays, careless maneuvers, imperfection in micro/macro, cluelessness in late game, etc, so much more than the recent players. I was however often pleasantly surprised by how interesting and diverse the meta strategies could be back then.
I agree that the overall talent pool of SC2 has been drying up since 2018, but I believe the absolute top3-5 players are only getting better over the years. Drop current Serral back into any era and he will still dominate after some time of practice and adaptation.
Maru and Serral at their peak forms are two players that I consider to be reaching the verge of theoretically perfect SC2 player. Macroµ, strategic mind&raw skills, early game/late game, offense&defense, they have it all and shows no noticeable weakness. Only player that showed flashes of this kind of perfection from earlier era was Life. Shamed at how his career turned out.
I don't think players ever got worse, but that's just because the scene and performance always builds off of itself. I'm sure if you teleported any of the top 10 players right now back in time, they'd probably wreck 2013 players. It only makes sense to evaluate someone relative to their peers at the time. I do not buy that the players are "more talented" than before, even if they are able to do more than what players back then were. How does one really measure "talent" other than results? It's not like SC2 is a purely quantitative and objective game.
|
On February 07 2024 14:22 tigera6 wrote:
For me, I do think the coming IEM and Esport World Cup will have an impact in the GOAT debate depending on who win them. Reynor already fulfilled his share of performance in WC-level tournament with 2 wins and 2 2nd place, the issue for is the lack of accomplishment in the other premiere tournaments. Other than Gamers8 victory, his best result in 2023 is Ro4 in ESL Summer, and his latest premiere victory was HSC22, and before that was the DH Summer 2021. Couple that with how Reynor often say that hes not committing his all into the game all the time, taking break or doing something else, is not GOAT-material imo but we cant deny the accomplishment.
There is certain parallel between Reynor - Serral and Maru - Rogue where both Reynor and Rogue shows that they are much better than usual self at WC-title event but not as consistently great in other tournaments. While Maru and Serral are more consistent overall, but having trouble at getting the job done at such events. And in both cases, they happened to be teammates so they would practice against each other a lot, knowing each other style and strategy and are pretty even head-to-head (although Reynor record against Serral hasnt been great for the last 2 years with 1-7 in matches and 4-20 in games).
So yes, Reynor can make his case for GOAT, at the moment I would give him somewhere between 11-13 rank.
Oh dang, i didn't realize he also had 2 2nd places at WC, that's pretty crazy.
If he does win a 3rd WC, I don't think he has a case for #1 still, but it would move him from 15-17 to 11-12 to me, a few spots below sOs who i think is 8-10.
|
United States33293 Posts
Not gonna pick out specific ppl to reply to, but just a general thought on KeSPA era + skill levels.
1) I think most people agree the skill level at the top end of SC2 is higher than it has ever been before. I think these same people would agree that it would be EVEN higher now, if theoretically KeSPA teams and 30-40 more pros had stayed in the game during 2017-2023.
2) I think the biggest credit to the KeSPA era is it was when the competition was the deepest and least stratified. Championship-quality players going out in the first round frequently. RO32 groups feeling competitive and unpredictable. Massive shake-ups in the top eight every season of Code S. Winning two Code S in a year feeling almost unthinkable. I think this is quite significant, and why someone could fairly value this period more highly than any other.
3) Barely related tangent: Clem, Reynor, and Serral are players who originated in the early 2010's 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
