EPT1. MVP < Rain, or
2. Dark not in the top 10.
Pick one poison.
#5: INnoVation - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 4
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Nasigil
137 Posts
1. MVP < Rain, or 2. Dark not in the top 10. Pick one poison. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Poll: Who is #4? Dark (23) Mvp (20) Someone else (1) 44 total votes Your vote: Who is #4? | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17734 Posts
On February 07 2024 06:12 Pandain wrote: Poll: Who is #4? Dark (23) Mvp (20) Someone else (1) 44 total votes Your vote: Who is #4? no, I can't choose, it's impossible | ||
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arcane1129
United States271 Posts
On February 07 2024 05:54 Nasigil wrote: Well... depends on how no.4 is gonna turn out, you will end up with either: 1. MVP < Rain, or 2. Dark not in the top 10. Pick one poison. Depending on what criteria are more heavily emphasized, I could see the argument against MVP for only being at the top when the scene was young, pre-kespa, and pretty much only in WOL/lacks the longevity of other players. That's why I'd have MVP toward the bottom of my top 10, personally, despite his dominance at the time. For Dark, however, there is virtually no rational ranking criteria that could be used that would result in him being excluded while still including players like Rain, TY, and soO. Heck, SoO is #7 on the list and Dark's resume is basically just better SoO. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
What a shocker it would be | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On February 07 2024 06:19 arcane1129 wrote: Depending on what criteria are more heavily emphasized, I could see the argument against MVP for only being at the top when the scene was young, pre-kespa, and pretty much only in WOL/lacks the longevity of other players. That's why I'd have MVP toward the bottom of my top 10, personally, despite his dominance at the time. For Dark, however, there is virtually no rational ranking criteria that could be used that would result in him being excluded while still including players like Rain, TY, and soO. Heck, SoO is #7 on the list and Dark's resume is basically just better SoO. I think TY and Dark are sameish - WESG + Katowice and 2 GSL is comparable to 1 SSL, 2 GSL, 1 post COVID DHM, and 1 Blizzcon (druing infestor BL 2.0). Dark has more success in less prestigious premiers than TY, but TY is probably a better team league player. I'd give Dark the nod but think both belong in a Life-less top 10. I also don't think Rain belongs on the list though. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
I don't think I really have a strong opinion in the abstract on either debate. Based on the criteria of this list so far, MVP seems like a more surprising choice to leave out, and I would presume he's #4. Leaving out Dark altogether also seems strange, but also, I don't know, Dark doesn't seem like he's on a totally different level from someone like, say, Reynor, who's also left off for straightforward reasons. Of course, this could all make sense if the top 4 includes both of them and Serral/Maru double/tie for #1. Resolve both debates at once! | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1506 Posts
On February 06 2024 23:21 Charoisaur wrote: Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era. recency/foreigner bias | ||
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arcane1129
United States271 Posts
On February 07 2024 06:35 dysenterymd wrote: I think TY and Dark are sameish - WESG + Katowice and 2 GSL is comparable to 1 SSL, 2 GSL, 1 post COVID DHM, and 1 Blizzcon (druing infestor BL 2.0). Dark has more success in less prestigious premiers than TY, but TY is probably a better team league player. I'd give Dark the nod but think both belong in a Life-less top 10. I also don't think Rain belongs on the list though. Respectfully, I don't think TY is that close to Dark. Excluding the WCS crossfinals, majors, and team leagues, Dark has 7 premier golds, 12 silvers, and 15 bronze to TY's 4 golds, 4 silvers, and 10 bronze. Similar quality events as well. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On February 07 2024 06:35 dysenterymd wrote: I think TY and Dark are sameish - WESG + Katowice and 2 GSL is comparable to 1 SSL, 2 GSL, 1 post COVID DHM, and 1 Blizzcon (druing infestor BL 2.0). Dark has more success in less prestigious premiers than TY, but TY is probably a better team league player. I'd give Dark the nod but think both belong in a Life-less top 10. I also don't think Rain belongs on the list though. Only looking at trophies TY and Dark are similar but Dark has way more finals and ro4 appearances, which should also count for something, seeing that soO is in the list | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On February 07 2024 06:48 arcane1129 wrote: Respectfully, I don't think TY is that close to Dark. Excluding the WCS crossfinals, majors, and team leagues, Dark has 7 premier golds, 12 silvers, and 15 bronze to TY's 4 golds, 4 silvers, and 10 bronze. Similar quality events as well. Yeah, giving that they had success in the same era as well, there's basically no argument to put TY above Dark. So Dark still has to be in the list because he can't be below TY and Mvp still has to be on the list because he can't be below Rain... | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2260 Posts
On February 07 2024 06:34 Locutos wrote: And then, for the amazement of all, Mizenhauer comes with a #4 Mvp/ Dark placement. What a shocker it would be that would be so lame! | ||
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Glorfindelio
223 Posts
Gogo Kato! | ||
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t5Fab
183 Posts
On February 06 2024 20:34 TL.net ESPORTS wrote: The inevitable slump cycle came for INnoVation in the 2015 WCS Global Finals, where he once again dropped out in the RO8, losing to eventual champion <a href="  Life" class="zicon" title="[More info on Liquipedia]">Life</a>.Life was the finalist of 2015. sOs was the winner!  | ||
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ZertoN
Germany214 Posts
kinda puts the entire list in question. probably serral will be given rank 1 too. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1284 Posts
1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins) Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell: 1. Serral (23 wins-9 RunnerUps) 2. Maru (13-10) 3. TaeJa (11-2) 4. Rogue (11-1) 5. Reynor (10-10) 6. INnoVation (10-4) 7. MMA (9-4) 8. Mvp (9-2) 9. Polt (8-5) 9. herO (8-5) 13. Zest (7-6) 24. Rain (5-2) 25. sOs (4-6) 26. TY (4-3) 28. soO (3-9) | ||
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1923 Posts
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood: 1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins) Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell: 1. Serral (23 wins-9 RunnerUps) 2. Maru (13-10) 3. TaeJa (11-2) 4. Rogue (11-1) 5. Reynor (10-10) 6. INnoVation (10-4) 7. MMA (9-4) 8. Mvp (9-2) 9. Polt (8-5) 9. herO (8-5) 13. Zest (7-6) 24. Rain (5-2) 25. sOs (4-6) 26. TY (4-3) 28. soO (3-9) I'm going to get an ulcer waiting for this series to finish so I can finally go into certain things in more detail. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1284 Posts
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
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