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On February 12 2024 05:56 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice. Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016
First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons
Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them.
The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable.
The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
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On February 12 2024 06:05 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 05:56 FFXthebest wrote:On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice. Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016 First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them. The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable. The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around.
Actually my statement is pretty close to reality
Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong)
Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc)
Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
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On February 12 2024 05:58 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice. In which universe was Oliveira "the best" 2023? He was World Champion of course, but that was his only truely noteworthy achievement that year...
He's trolling.
Since Serral stopped studying and focused on sc2 he has been pretty much The sovereign king of starcraft, all these people claiming that the GSL wins alone make Maru the best are stuck in the old days of GSL. The fact is that the korean scene hasn't been the strongest for many years (it still is the widest on the shoulders of the old breed) and Serral has showed that he is the no.1 player of the game. If Maru is easily the best of the koreans and their head to head (During the bulk of Marus GSL wins!) looks like this i can't fathom a reason Serral wouldn't be the clear Bonjwa.
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Some good points in the topic.
But Serral is just so much more dominant than any other player statistically, that the only reason it isn't absolutely clear he's leagues above everyone else is because he doesn't compete in Korea (well he did.. a couple of times and won...), if he did, you'd see Maru/Rogue/Dark getting dunked constantly and not just every 3-4 months, if you have 75% WR over the undisputed #2 player in the world you're on a league of your own.
Serral really should be getting compared to Magnus Carlsen/Flash in terms of dominance, not "Is hE ThE GoAT" while being the favourite to win every tournament he enters for the past 6 years.
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On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice.
Serral has the best winrate against Korean-only opponents of all time. He had a 5% better winrate against Korean opponents than Dark in 2019. 5% is a TON at this level of play. He was the betting favorite for every single game from 2018-now.
This past IEM results made this literally non-debatable. Serral leads in literally every category now, including matching Rogue on World Championships. Stans will hopelessly cling to the "Kespa era best era" as their last remaining illegitimate argument.
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On February 12 2024 06:15 Elche wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 05:58 Balnazza wrote:On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice. In which universe was Oliveira "the best" 2023? He was World Champion of course, but that was his only truely noteworthy achievement that year... He's trolling. Since Serral stopped studying and focused on sc2 he has been pretty much The sovereign king of starcraft, all these people claiming that the GSL wins alone make Maru the best are stuck in the old days of GSL. The fact is that the korean scene hasn't been the strongest for many years (it still is the widest on the shoulders of the old breed) and Serral has showed that he is the no.1 player of the game. If Maru is easily the best of the koreans and their head to head (During the bulk of Marus GSL wins!) looks like this i can't fathom a reason Serral wouldn't be the clear Bonjwa.
I dont know why the image is "loading" but you can go to Aligulac and check Marus rivarlies and see for yourself.
Most of the matches Maru wins are in the group stages or "meaningless" while Serral brings his A game when it matters.
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On February 12 2024 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote:
Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024! This is actually something really important I wanted to mention. This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
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On February 12 2024 06:14 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:05 Fango wrote:On February 12 2024 05:56 FFXthebest wrote:On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice. Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016 First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them. The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable. The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around. Actually my statement is pretty close to reality Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong) Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc) Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
I do not think that is true. Games do involve ofc, but a lot comes down to major game overhauls / balance changes. I agree for the very early stages of the realease when everyone was figuring out the game. After a year of WoL the skill ceiling started to increase drastically. In general WoL was a lot slower due to the nature of the game.
Innovation was never better than in 2013 and had arguably one of the highest skill peaks in SC2 overall according to many ppl in this thread.
From my personal experience: I was GM in WoL 3x, HoTS 1x and made it recently to GM again with sub 300 games after a 5 year break (I have barely more than 3k games overall). I feel the lower master tiers have never been less competitive and high master was also significantely harder during HoTS.
Maybe it is different for the pro's but certainly not for the "on the brink of beeing competitive" players.
On February 12 2024 00:15 Poopi wrote:
WoL wasn't the most competitive era / height of relevance, HotS was, and INno was more successful there. Even early LotV was more significant than WoL. Plus, mvp wasn't that dominant in GSL, there were a lot of tournaments per year and he didn't win that many.
I mean I like the guy even though he bullied my favorite player back then MKP over and over, but he isn't close to INnoVation in the grand scheme of things, in terms of greatness.
I disagree, mid to late WoL was the height of relevance, at least in terms of viewership and I say that as a Terran with the completely op BL / Infestor late game that was daily business.
If you are talking long term sucess, Innovation certainly has a spot on this list, but even his total win/major trophies do not add up to MVPs sucess and I am not talking about the insane legacy and impact that MVP left behind.
Being "feared" or "high skilled" is not a relevant factor when measuring a goat list.
1) What did you win
2) When did you win
3) How hard was it to win compared to today
4) Was the game more relevant at the time of the individuals sucess
5) How did you win
6) Is there a special circumstance when you won
Those are factor I would consider important, but to each their own opinion.
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United States1818 Posts
On February 12 2024 06:20 Hydro033 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote:
Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024! This is actually something really important I wanted to mention. This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result. Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
You don't understand what I'm saying in the slightest.
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On February 12 2024 06:20 Hydro033 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote:
Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024! This is actually something really important I wanted to mention. This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result. Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
Miz might not want it to be influenced by this tournament since he's already ranked a bunch of players *anyway*. You've got to make a cutoff for the list somewhere, after all.
But I still don't think it's actually that unreasonable to have the list be the same either way. I can see justification for both, with or without #1 this tournament. If you valued the old competitive scene and the difficulty of being good during it, then you might favor Maru. If you consider peak and dominance of the scene, regardless of the competitive field, it's extremely obvious Serral should be #1. Or maybe you think Serrals complete dominance is so much more impressive than Maru's historical dominance that Maru could win WC and still not be above Serral!
On February 12 2024 06:14 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:05 Fango wrote:On February 12 2024 05:56 FFXthebest wrote:On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice. Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016 First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them. The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable. The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around. Actually my statement is pretty close to reality Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong) Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc) Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
I still don't know why people make arguments about "skill", just because players today would crush players in the past. In Chess, Hikaru or Wesley So, two top rated but never #1 players would absolutely destroy anyone before 2010. I doubt he'd even win a single game, if 90s Kasparov faced 2024 Hikaru. Is Hikaru more skilled than Kasparov? Well Hikaru had way more resources, as well as being able to build on the knowledge of all previous chess players. Should we rank Hikaru above Kasparov despite him never winning any WCs? This is also true for SC2, and LoL, and other games too. Is Harstem better than MC because he's presently more technically skilled than MC used to be, despite not being as accomplished.
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United States1818 Posts
On February 12 2024 07:23 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:20 Hydro033 wrote:On February 12 2024 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote:
Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024! This is actually something really important I wanted to mention. This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result. Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric). Miz might not want it to be influenced by this tournament since he's already ranked a bunch of players *anyway*. You've got to make a cutoff for the list somewhere, after all. But I still don't think it's actually that unreasonable to have the list be the same either way. I can see justification for both, with or without #1 this tournament. If you valued the old competitive scene and the difficulty of being good during it, then you might favor Maru. If you consider peak and dominance of the scene, regardless of the competitive field, it's extremely obvious Serral should be #1. Or maybe you think Serrals complete dominance is so much more impressive than Maru's historical dominance that Maru could win WC and still not be above Serral! Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:14 FFXthebest wrote:On February 12 2024 06:05 Fango wrote:On February 12 2024 05:56 FFXthebest wrote:On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice. Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016 First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them. The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable. The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around. Actually my statement is pretty close to reality Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong) Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc) Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard I still don't know why people make arguments about "skill", just because players today would crush players in the past. In Chess, Hikaru or Wesley So, two top rated but never #1 players would absolutely destroy anyone before 2010. I doubt he'd even win a single game, if 90s Kasparov faced 2024 Hikaru. Is Hikaru more skilled than Kasparov? Well Hikaru had way more resources, as well as being able to build on the knowledge of all previous chess players. Should we rank Hikaru above Kasparov despite him never winning any WCs? This is also true for SC2, and LoL, and other games too. Is Harstem better than MC because he's presently more technically skilled than MC used to be, despite not being as accomplished.
Please trust me to handle this thing responsibly given all the effort I've put in and the fact that I was aware this might occur.
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On February 12 2024 06:14 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:05 Fango wrote:On February 12 2024 05:56 FFXthebest wrote:On February 12 2024 05:51 Gomas wrote:On February 12 2024 05:35 argonautdice wrote:
Literally has anyone had a better record 2018 to now than Serral? If a player is the best player in the world for half of the game's age, then that player is GOAT. In 2018 Serral and Maru I would say were equal for the top spot. In 2019 Dark was the best. In 2020 Rogue was the best. In 2021 Reynor was the best. In 2022 Serral was the best, that's true. In 2023 Reynor or Oliveira were the top I would say. So Serral was #1 for one year of the 14 years of sc2 history. While playing in the Zerg OP era. While playing in the weakest era, where 15 pros practice. Actually the past couple years has been the highest skilled era When you watched the games played during “pro league keeps 2015-2016 ” the supposed highest skilled era, the games are actually quite low skilled by todays standard. Current mid-high Master ladder player could win everything from 2010-2016 First off, a master player now wouldn't even be competing with pros 10 years ago. Not even close in fact. It's completely and utterly insane to think that. They'd maybe get in the first GSL open seasons Secondly, the 'highest skilled era' is just misleading. There are several times fewer active pros than in the past. Every tournament is a showdown between the top 3-5 players. In the past it was between 30. That makes it substantially easier for those guys to win a greater percentage of them. The idea of someone winning every GSL tournament in 2014 where over 60 pros, all sponsored with teams and coaches, would qualify each season, is unthinkable. The best players (Maru and Serral) are better now than anyone previously, but they would win less if another 50 full time pros were around. Actually my statement is pretty close to reality Remember everyone praising MKP marine splits? That’s literally basic mechanic that I see on ladder when I play against terrans in masters. (Dare to say some have even better splits and multiple pong) Additional lower tier full time pro will not make much of a difference against the top dogs (aka Serral Maru dark reynor etc) Looking back at thr list of pros playing back then and their games. Their skills are quite…. Unimpressive by todays standard
This is the most delusional post in this entire series so far. If nothing else, people were raving about MKP in 2011, not 2016, the game improved in skill most rapidly in it's first couple of years. And that's not to take away from winners in the early days, that's like saying Muhammad Ali isn't one of the great boxers because he'd lose to modern athletes.
But more importantly, RTS isn't about marine splits. People on ladder can do marine splits, but they can't do them while having good macro, or having any semblance of game awareness, or the understanding of build orders, basic RTS mechanics, that any pro player does. If you think a masters player would beat a pro in 2016 you have never seen a pro play.
For the love of Serral go back and watch some POVs from 2016 or earlier. They are legions better than any masters player will ever be. Hell, remember WoL players like MC and TOP? Both of those guys have come out of retirement and still made it into Code S in LotV.
And yeah, 'lower tier full time pros' absolutely make the difference to the top dogs. Back in HotS most of the koreans had been pro gamers for 5-10 years, and there were around 100 full time players in korea. Championship level players would often not even qualify for Code S, people would sometimes royal road tournaments. And probably the biggest thing, lower tier pros eventually become the top dogs, if guys like SpeeD, Forte, Trust etc were still playing now, they might have been contenders to win everything.
And to add to that even further, it's not even 'lower tier pros' that are missing. TY, INnoVation, soO, sOs, Zest, Stats, Dream, ByuL, Rogue, PartinG, Neeb, Dear all gone. Those guys were all championship players that would have been in competition with Maru and Serral
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On February 12 2024 06:20 Hydro033 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote:
Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024! This is actually something really important I wanted to mention. This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result. Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric).
It's a weird one, because out of the top 10 players, presumably only 2 of them were at Katowice (Maru and Serral, who happen to be the obvious 1 and 2, which makes it weird). But at the same time everyone knew Serral would win, his dominance on the international stage was already the best in SC2 history, so it doesn't really effect his case that much really. It's like if Maru wins the next couple GSLs, it's not gonna move him in anyone's list.
It would make a bigger difference had Dark won tbh, with 2 World Cups and 3 Starleagues having him out of the top 10 would be unthinkable.
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On February 12 2024 07:13 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:20 Hydro033 wrote:On February 12 2024 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote:
Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024! This is actually something really important I wanted to mention. This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result. Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric). You don't understand what I'm saying in the slightest.
Well obviously not because the articles aren't published! I look forward to reading them when they are.
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On February 12 2024 08:22 Fango wrote:
And to add to that even further, it's not even 'lower tier pros' that are missing. TY, INnoVation, soO, sOs, Zest, Stats, Dream, ByuL, Rogue, PartinG, Neeb, Dear all gone. Those guys were all championship players that would have been in competition with Maru and Serral
FWIW I just looked up Serral's record against those players on Aligulac and he's got a nearly 65% win-rate against those players (besides Dear; no games) across 345 games. There's context of course—best of 1s, team leagues, online games, etc.—but that kind of context is true for both players and it's still nearly 65%, and includes pre-2018 games.
I've seen people making this point often—the field of real contenders is smaller than it once was, making it more difficult for individuals vs the field—and while it's true it also feels less important at the very, very peak. If in order to win a premier series you need to make it out of group stages and then win 3 or 4 series against high level competition, and your past record is winning 65% of the time against the field of top level hypothetical opponents you might have faced instead of the people who you actually faced, isn't the most likely outcome that you would have won in either scenario? Because if, say, TY, Inno, Zest, etc. were still playing at the level of serious contenders today, it's not like Serral would have to beat them in addition to whoever else he plays in a tournament; if he played them they would be replacing a different opponent. And I guess I just don't see that prospect as a notably more difficult challenge than playing the people he actually plays at the playoffs.
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Northern Ireland24739 Posts
On February 12 2024 08:40 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:20 Hydro033 wrote:On February 12 2024 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote:
Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024! This is actually something really important I wanted to mention. This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result. Man, that's kind of weak sauce. Seems to me like today's results were quite important to this debate. I can't imagine Maru or Serral claiming the #1 spot without a win today. If Maru won, I think he can finally claim it given his drought of success outside Korean, and same with Serral now equaling Rogue in WC titles (and smashing him in every other conceivable metric). It's a weird one, because out of the top 10 players, presumably only 2 of them were at Katowice (Maru and Serral, who happen to be the obvious 1 and 2, which makes it weird). But at the same time everyone knew Serral would win, his dominance on the international stage was already the best in SC2 history, so it doesn't really effect his case that much really. It's like if Maru wins the next couple GSLs, it's not gonna move him in anyone's list. It would make a bigger difference had Dark won tbh, with 2 World Cups and 3 Starleagues having him out of the top 10 would be unthinkable.
Plus if Dark took out a red-hot Serral and Maru back to back, add a little sparkle on top of the title!
For me it doesn’t really move the needle on Serral/Maru, I don’t think it’s possible to fully compare eras, and honestly even if Serral went to play GSL at this stage it’s almost too late to answer that question, it’s not the competition it was even a couple of years ago. So people who hold that against Serral I think always will.
For me there’s probably relatively few folks who haven’t made their minds up on this question, and it’s irrespective of this one result.
One thing I would (boldly?) claim is I think Serral is pretty damn enshrined as the greatest of the post-Kespa era. Even if he quit today I don’t think we’ll have the game remain at even its current stage for anyone else to replicate what he’s done. And he’s not quitting for a wee while yet.
He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
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On February 12 2024 09:53 WombaT wrote:
He’s been the most prolific winner of regular international tournaments, he’s right up the top for big World titles. His win rates are insane, he’s basically got a winning head-to-head versus the entire field over half a decade.
As an entire package I don’t see how you beat that.
I think you'd have to argue a counterfactual that had he been participating in GSL and the like over the years that he'd have been so much worse than he is outside of South Korea that averaging everything out would push him below some of the other potential candidates. And at least to me, it does seem like there are some people who accept that idea as a basic premise in evaluating his place. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but I know which way I lean.
Though maybe more interesting would be what the scene in Europe would look like if a Serral-shaped vacuum were there circa idk 2019-present.
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Northern Ireland24739 Posts
On February 12 2024 09:47 Mumei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 08:22 Fango wrote:
And to add to that even further, it's not even 'lower tier pros' that are missing. TY, INnoVation, soO, sOs, Zest, Stats, Dream, ByuL, Rogue, PartinG, Neeb, Dear all gone. Those guys were all championship players that would have been in competition with Maru and Serral FWIW I just looked up Serral's record against those players on Aligulac and he's got a nearly 65% win-rate against those players (besides Dear; no games) across 345 games. There's context of course—best of 1s, team leagues, online games, etc.—but that kind of context is true for both players and it's still nearly 65%, and includes pre-2018 games. I've seen people making this point often—the field of real contenders is smaller than it once was, making it more difficult for individuals vs the field—and while it's true it also feels less important at the very, very peak. If in order to win a premier series you need to make it out of group stages and then win 3 or 4 series against high level competition, and your past record is winning 65% of the time against the field of top level hypothetical opponents you might have faced instead of the people who you actually faced, isn't the most likely outcome that you would have won in either scenario? Because if, say, TY, Inno, Zest, etc. were still playing at the level of serious contenders today, it's not like Serral would have to beat them in addition to whoever else he plays in a tournament; if he played them they would be replacing a different opponent. And I guess I just don't see that prospect as a notably more difficult challenge than playing the people he actually plays at the playoffs.
Plus except for Rogue, and pre-military TY most of those guys dropped off from championship contention long before they actually left the scene. And Serral relatively smacked TY around, the latter’s style, so great for TvT but lacking the crazy speed and micro of a Maru/Clem just didn’t match up well against Serral’s strengths.
Now maybe if Korea had got more love, some cash to run another Starleague or something else structural, maybe more players keep up that motivation to stay at the top. I’ve long felt it a crying shame.
Stats was probably the only other one who was in genuine championship contender state for any period during the span where Serral really started hitting his stride. They had some memorable clashes for sure.
Inno’s last big showing was in taking Serral out to win WESG, but he was checked (well, chequed) out once he got that prize really.
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On February 12 2024 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 02:59 Blargh wrote:
Miz is just going to lazily choose the #1 GOAT from the winner of IEM 2024! This is actually something really important I wanted to mention. This event (IEM Katowice 2024) won't be taken account for the remainder of the list.However, as I can honestly say (with the finals about 10 minutes away) that where I rank Maru and Serral among the best of all time has not changed—and would not change regardless of the result.
Damn, maybe a hint that it means that Dark is #4. Because if Dark won Katowice, it might give him a case to match or be above Rogue or whoever #3 is.
On February 12 2024 07:06 Kitaen wrote:
From my personal experience: I was GM in WoL 3x, HoTS 1x and made it recently to GM again with sub 300 games after a 5 year break (I have barely more than 3k games overall). I feel the lower master tiers have never been less competitive and high master was also significantely harder during HoTS.
I find this interesting, because my experience is the opposite. As a former masters player in HotS, I feel opponents have became more skilled comparatively and I struggle to get from Diamond 1 to Masters 3.
At my peak at the end of HotS, I was high masters and facing off vs low GMs about half of my ladder games (and would win vs some of them). Early LotV, I was mid masters at 4500 MR, and now I vary from 3900 to 4200 MMR despite still playing now and then and trying to improve.
Ofc, this is probably because of the difference in focus between HotS and LotV, and the difference in our skillsets.
On February 12 2024 07:06 Kitaen wrote:
I disagree, mid to late WoL was the height of relevance, at least in terms of viewership and I say that as a Terran with the completely op BL / Infestor late game that was daily business.
Don't forget that mass Raven/PDD only started to be used by pros in late HotS and was arguably the most OP thing in SC2 history other than maybe archon toilet, even despite the nerfs to PDD lasting only 20 secs. In WoL they lasted THREE to FOUR minutes meaning you didn't even need to get the 20+ Ravens like in HotS, just 10 would be enough.
If pro Terrans knew about mass Raven in WoL, then they wouldn't have struggled vs BL Infestor at all with some basic splitting vs fungal and tanks/emp to zone out Neural Parasite. Without Viper abduct and parabomb, there was really nothing stopping Raven+Viking from having complete air control and destroy infinite numbers of corruptors.
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France12770 Posts
Yeah given the various comments of Miz + the intro, the order is probably: #4 Dark, #3 Maru, #2 Serral and #1 Rogue. Or maybe #2 Rogue and #1 Serral.
Since balance isn’t taken into account, Rogue and Serral will be above Maru for sure.
INno below either mvp (I doubt it’s gonna be mvp) or Dark is kinda weird though, but that’s subjective, INno is also lacking a WC in his resume
WESG is not considered WC + Serral was sick yet INno barely beat him 4-3
Edit: lol about the comment above, you can ask current pros from today to play on BL/infestor patch and see if your raven / Viking strat (or any for that matter) can work.
Heck I would even bet 300$ that current top zergs vs current top terrans on WoL BL/infestor patch would lean in the favor of Zerg’s given enough preparation time to be back in « WoL » mode (lot less QoL in WoL, gotta take some time to adjust)
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EPT![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/a/OduMkE3)
