EPTOn February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4
Maybe Dark and MVP are both out.
Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4
Maybe Dark and MVP are both out.
Life has been said to be omitted entirely.
#5: INnoVation - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 2
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Luolis
Finland7113 Posts
Life has been said to be omitted entirely. | ||
Poopi
France12889 Posts
On February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4 Maybe Dark and MVP are both out. Waxangel confirmed 1) Life would not be included, period. 2) even if they allowed themselves to include him, his achievements wouldn't make him worthy of a top 10 spot given the criteria anyways So I am 90% positive #4 is either Dark or mvp (I doubt ByuN's one good year is enough, don't see any other player worthy of top 4), both are credible depending on how you weight dominating during a short period of time + comeback despite injury etc narrative, vs slowly but surely accumulating important wins while remaining a top player Top 3 is also 90%+ guaranteed to be any combination of Serral / Rogue / Maru given their achievements which comfortably exceed those of any other players | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4 Maybe Dark and MVP are both out. Wax said in another thread that Life was not in. It gotta be MVP next, ain't no way Dark get up to number 4 in my opinion. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On February 06 2024 21:52 Nakajin wrote: Wax said in another thread that Life was not in. It gotta be MVP next, ain't no way Dark get up to number 4 in my opinion. From memory Zest’s resume is reasonably similar to Darks’s, least in terms of top 2 finishes in the big boy tournaments, but Zest’s were when SC2 was at its most cutthroat (mostly), and Dark’s more latterly. I rate Dark very highly and think he’s a lot closer to Rogue for the Korean Zerg GOAT than many, but I do struggle to put him above Zest | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19255 Posts
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lokol4890
114 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On February 06 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote: From memory Zest’s resume is reasonably similar to Darks’s, least in terms of top 2 finishes in the big boy tournaments, but Zest’s were when SC2 was at its most cutthroat (mostly), and Dark’s more latterly. I rate Dark very highly and think he’s a lot closer to Rogue for the Korean Zerg GOAT than many, but I do struggle to put him above Zest Dark however holds the title of best Zerg army control and I won't let anyone take that away from him. Although I do think Serral has him beat specifically when it comes to viper control vs skytoss. (This has nothing to do with your post but I wanted to say it) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On February 06 2024 21:41 dysenterymd wrote: I think Inno is pretty clearly #4 of all time (quite a bit ahead of Zest, quite a bit behind Maru/Serral/Rogue.) Too bad that his insane peaks never seemed to coincide with world championships though. I think there’s a case to bump Rogue, I know many won’t agree but hey, that’s part of the fun :p Maru and Inno were quite a bit more competitive for quite a few years when competition was fiercer, as contemporaries of Rogue. As to how much one counts that for, will be quite personal but it should count for something. Serral just started later, in a different region so obviously we can’t compare them in that way, Rogue has 1 more WC iirc, and Starleagues that Serral isn’t competing in. But Serral has been unrelentingly, brutally consistent for basically half a decade, and tbh it’s only that and his sheer level for me that have him high in GOAT lists, it’s not just his trophy cabinet. I mean Reynor has 2 WCs too but I really don’t think he’s on Serral’s level, he can peak as high but he’s not quite the complete package. Rogue’s a wee bit streaky too, as was Inno. But yeah plenty of arguments to the contrary, personal weighting absolutely comes into it too, here’s mine with all my bias In no Particular Order (it’s too hard dagnabbit) Maru - Just there or there abouts forever. Occasionally does jaw dropping feats and his sheer skill at the game is close to unmatched when he’s on it. Also was still making deep runs in tournaments when almost nobody else playing his race was, so bonus points there. Serral - Just inhumanly consistent, has a winning record against basically everyone of note. As Gary Lineker once memorably opined ‘Twenty-two men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans always win.’ You can basically just reappropriate this to ‘StarCraft is a simple game, you both execute your game plans and Serral reads yours and kills you.’ Broke the glass ceiling of a foreigner winning things like WCs and being consistently amongst the best in the world, which we take for granted these days but that was a big deal, so he gets a few bonus points. Mvp - Just ahead of the competition at the time, and basically the complete player. He gets bonus points for laying the foundations of how Terran should be played, as well as still making deep runs while debilitated with injury. In a strategy game more than any other eSport I feel figuring the game out, rather than merely executing very well should count for something. I know Miz is transparent about not factoring that in, but I am. Innovation - Absolute monster who probably should have won more, at his peak he was just mechanically ahead of the field. Possibly, even for a relatively short period just the scariest player out there, it’s been a long time and I’ve rewatched a bit but no trickery, no real deviation or sneakiness, that initial form of Innovation was just stomping the absolute cream of the crop with raw mechanical chops, so he gets a bonus point for maybe the scariest peak. Of course there is the pesky matter of trophies to discuss, but I’ve broadly made my top 4 GOAT list as the top 4 players at some specific thing. Maru has a little peak skill but he’s broadly in for being a contender for forever, regardless of the state of Terran. Serral is Mr Consistent, little peak skill there too. Mvp is innovation and still being relevant despite adverse factors and Innovation is mostly peak skill as compared to his competition. To me greatness is a rather emotional, rather personal thing, whereas ‘the best’ is something more objective. The problem with the latter is SC2 has had so many shifts and changes that even the latter is basically impossible to fully figure out. So sure I’ll factor in winning and performance to whittle the list down, and then I’m really going with my gut on different sub-categories and how I value them. Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention, and without the emotional resonance of an Mvp still being competitive despite injuries necessitating him changing his whole style, or Serral who had greater consistency atop him being that first foreigner to be the best in the world/close | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On February 06 2024 22:59 Durnuu wrote: Dark however holds the title of best Zerg army control and I won't let anyone take that away from him. Although I do think Serral has him beat specifically when it comes to viper control vs skytoss. (This has nothing to do with your post but I wanted to say it) It needs to be said as I think it’s true! Although Dark is also maybe the only player I can think of whose stellar army control is sometimes a negative, he’ll stick with off-meta compositions and stubbornly try to make them work via said control, IMO partly through to wanting to amuse himself. It certainly entertains me to watch when it does work out. *Edit* I just remembered Byun’s whole thing | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On February 06 2024 23:04 WombaT wrote: Rogue for me, no disrespect he’s clearly a great player but his claim is just based on him winning stuff in a weaker era, after being outperformed for years by others in contention Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On February 06 2024 23:21 Charoisaur wrote: Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era. Yeah Serral is basically Rogue with less WC (edited) trophies | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1883 Posts
On February 06 2024 23:24 Poopi wrote: Yeah Serral is basically Rogue with less trophies Serral has won more events than Rogue... what world are we living in lol 25>11 | ||
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NeWHoriZonS
54 Posts
On February 06 2024 23:24 Poopi wrote: Yeah Serral is basically Rogue with less WC (edited) trophies Sanest Maru fan | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On February 06 2024 23:45 Mizenhauer wrote: Serral has won more events than Rogue... what world are we living in lol 25>11 Yeah I edited, spoke about WC events  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On February 06 2024 23:21 Charoisaur wrote: Seems weird that you want to punish Rogue for having all his results in the weaker era but not Serral, no? Sure Serral wasn't full-time back then, but how he would've performed if he was good earlier is just, as you previously said "imagination". At the end of the day he has no results during the Kespa era. I thought ‘But Serral has been unrelentingly, brutally consistent for basically half a decade, and tbh it’s only that and his sheer level for me that have him high in GOAT lists, it’s not just his trophy cabinet. I mean Reynor has 2 WCs too but I really don’t think he’s on Serral’s level’ covered it somewhat. Rogue has contemporaries that outperformed him in HoTS thru earlier LoTV, and in the era he started winning a lot Serral has been more generally consistent in, a player who wasn’t active in the Kespa era (or Korean). So it really depends how you want to weight an extra WC + Starleagues versus Serral basically making Ro8 at least in basically every tournament he enters for half a decade + having a winning H2H against everyone, including Rogue iirc. Personally I think Serral’s overall body of work from 2017 (the first time Rogue won a tournament iirc) is better, it ticks more boxes for me. May be less sexy, or indeed climactic but better. Hope someone picks up on that joke. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1883 Posts
On February 07 2024 00:12 WombaT wrote: May be less sexy, or indeed climactic but better. Hope someone picks up on that joke. Go straight and turn right. ^^ incredible video for those who haven't seen it | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On February 07 2024 00:13 Mizenhauer wrote: Go straight and turn right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5jw93bmdqk ^^ incredible video for those who haven't seen it Excellent | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24209 Posts
On February 06 2024 22:47 lokol4890 wrote: Huh now I'm pumped to see who the #4 is because I really thought inno had that spot locked down I must say I feel the same, now I'm a bit confused. #1-2-3 Rogue/Maru/Serral is probably locked down (I'll be extremely surprised if any of those 3 ends up in 4th place), but the #4 spot will make for interesting conversations  | ||
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yubo56
688 Posts
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
No idea who it would be, but im drfinitely here for the outrage if it happens. | ||
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