On February 06 2024 21:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget guys, Life could still be #4
Maybe Dark and MVP are both out.
Wax said in another thread that Life was not in.
It gotta be MVP next, ain't no way Dark get up to number 4 in my opinion.
From memory Zest’s resume is reasonably similar to Darks’s, least in terms of top 2 finishes in the big boy tournaments, but Zest’s were when SC2 was at its most cutthroat (mostly), and Dark’s more latterly.
I rate Dark very highly and think he’s a lot closer to Rogue for the Korean Zerg GOAT than many, but I do struggle to put him above Zest
Also Zest has the benefit of being the best Protoss, which boost his case a lot for me. Dark is at best the third best zerg of his era as a top player, and at best the third best Korean.
I know he won Blizzcon 2019 in the world saddest tournament, but even then. There was no feeling he was head an shoulders the best in the world, especially with Rogue winning Kato just after.
More than any other player, I think INnoVation had the greatest aura at their peak. Early 2013 INnoVation was a monster. You genuinely felt like nobody could beat him. Soulkey beat him by all-inning him three times in a row. In the only actual macro game Soulkey beat him in, Soulkey got the biggest, luckiest fluke of all time with mutas catching INno's medivac drop. Despite being reverse swept, I came away from that series feeling like INnoVation was the far superior player. I felt that way then and I still feel it now. Even with those cracks in the armour such as his apparent weakness to all-ins, he was a dominant force. People joking about him being an emotionless, murderous android were no exaggeration, that's exactly what he felt like. An AI created to destroy people in StarCraft.
That's what makes Mvp's miracle against him so good. INnoVation single-handedly completely revitalised DongRaeGu's own aura by getting crushed and outplayed by him 2-0. INno also did a lot for early HotS TvZ. Hellbat drops notwithstanding, INnoVation said "Okay losers, this is how you play the match-up. You make marines, and you make mines. You rally them across the map and you don't stop until the opponent is dead." and the marine/mine parade push, while never being as brutally strong as it was in 2013, remained pretty much the core TvZ strategy for the entire expansion.
It's funny for somebody who was so inconsistent from year to year, I think INnoVation is one of the most consistent players ever. Whether contending for titles or not, he always felt like an extremely good player who you could never really bet against. Somebody capable of beating literally anyone on a good day.
On February 07 2024 01:45 RPR_Tempest wrote: More than any other player, I think INnoVation had the greatest aura at their peak. Early 2013 INnoVation was a monster. You genuinely felt like nobody could beat him. Soulkey beat him by all-inning him three times in a row. In the only actual macro game Soulkey beat him in, Soulkey got the biggest, luckiest fluke of all time with mutas catching INno's medivac drop. Despite being reverse swept, I came away from that series feeling like INnoVation was the far superior player. I felt that way then and I still feel it now. Even with those cracks in the armour such as his apparent weakness to all-ins, he was a dominant force. People joking about him being an emotionless, murderous android were no exaggeration, that's exactly what he felt like. An AI created to destroy people in StarCraft.
That's what makes Mvp's miracle against him so good. INnoVation single-handedly completely revitalised DongRaeGu's own aura by getting crushed and outplayed by him 2-0. INno also did a lot for early HotS TvZ. Hellbat drops notwithstanding, INnoVation said "Okay losers, this is how you play the match-up. You make marines, and you make mines. You rally them across the map and you don't stop until the opponent is dead." and the marine/mine parade push, while never being as brutally strong as it was in 2013, remained pretty much the core TvZ strategy for the entire expansion.
It's funny for somebody who was so inconsistent from year to year, I think INnoVation is one of the most consistent players ever. Whether contending for titles or not, he always felt like an extremely good player who you could never really bet against. Somebody capable of beating literally anyone on a good day.
This, and it may seem arbitrary or very subjective, but that aura was something. It was sitting and watching this bloke just appear and smash everyone, mostly just playing the exact same way he did last series he popped out and going ‘you know how I play, good luck stopping it’. Especially in TvZ.
It was like some guy just popped in, and went into the menu and upped the difficulty level and everyone else had to step up to the plate.
They eventually did, but it’s very difficult to articulate to someone who’s followed for less time quite what 2013 Inno felt like when he rapidly transitioned from BW to being that good so quickly.
Soulkey was/is an underrated, top, top player but I also agree despite winning that GSL finals Inno still kinda felt like the superior player.
Inno probably didn’t win as much as he should have, although he wasn’t a slouch in that respect in his 2013 vintage. Which IMO is as far beyond the rest of the field as any player has ever been
On February 06 2024 21:30 SharkStarcraft wrote: great article once again! i agree with inno being on this list, perhaps wouldn't have ranked him as highly myself but alas his resume does speak for itself. At this point i think its safe to assume MVP isn't making the cut, as omitting Dark would be even weirder and the top 3 is locked up for pretty obvious reasons.
But can someone enlighten me by which objective standards Rain can reasonably be placed above MVP? I dont think its fair to not rate the early years of GSL just because stuff wasn't as figured out yet, as there was a lot of competition still and, well, someone had to be a trailblazer for the kespa teams. MVP has 4 GSL titles to his name, only Maru has more I think??
You do realize you answered your own question. By your logic, there is no way Rain can be above Mvp (whether or not I agree is another story), thus Mvp still has to appear in the last four entries (according to you).
Yes but completely omitting Dark at this point makes little sense as he is (according to me ) far too accomplished over a long period of time to not make the top 10 at all. So I would agree that Dark>MVP but still MVP>Rain so something doesn't sit right with me haha thank you for your hard work as always
Ok edit maybe omitting Dark is ok. I am trying to convince myself that he was just a patch zerg and not even the best one in Korea let alone the world. He did earn over 1 million dollars though and won so much... ahh its tough
Inno was probably the GOAT for a while, but 5th now seems fair. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills seeing so many people underrate Dark. He has 9 years of being a consistent championship-contender, and while he has fewer golds, was on the podium (3/4th place or better) FAR more consistently than Rogue or Innovation. Rogue was notoriously weak between his championships. Also, "major" tournament wins with stacked competition count for something, particularly events like Dark's win in the AfreecaTV Champions cup with a 15k prize pool.
That said, I would have had MVP and maybe Trap on the list ahead of Rain and TY, but Dark is definitely justifiable at 4th.
Premier Gold: DH Masters 2022 Valencia 2021 GSL Code S S2 TSL6 2019 WCS Global Finals 2019 Super Tournament 2 2019 GSL Code S S2 2016 WCS Korea S2 Cross Finals (don’t count this for much) 2016 SSL S1
Silver: ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Winter 2023 GSL Code S S2 2022 Super Tournament 2 2022 Super Tournament 1 2020 Super Tournament 1 2018 Super Tournament 1 WESG 2017 2017 SSL S2 2016 WCS Global Playoffs and Finals 2016 SSL Season 2 2016 WCS Korea S1 Cross Finals (don’t really count this) 2015 Kespa Cup S2 2015 Kespa Cup S1
Bronze: 2023 GSL Code S S3 2022 GSL Code S S2 2022 GSL Code S S1 King of Battles 2 2019 GSL Code S S3 2019 GSL Code S S1 IEM Season XIII Katowice 2018 Super Tournament 2 2018 GSL vs the World 2018 GSL Code S S1 2017 Super Tournament 2 2017 GSL Code S S3 IEM Season XI World Championship IEM Season XI Gyeonggi IEM Season IX World Championship
Major Golds: WardiTV 2023 (ft. Clem, herO, Maxpax, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Solar, etc) WardiTV Spring Championship 2023 (ft. Clem, Solar, Byun, herO, Gumiho Cure, Maxpax, etc) 2022 AfreecaTV Champions Cup (ft. Maru, Serral, Reynor, Clem, herO, etc) 2022 Gladiators’ Cup (ft. Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Cure, Byun, Maxpax, etc)
Major Silvers: WardiTV Korean Royale S2 (loss to Maru) 2023 PiG Sty Festival 4.0 (loss to Serral) WardiTV Winter Championship 2023 2022 Pig Sty Festival 2.0 NeXT 2020 Winter
INno and Serral are probably the only two players that inspire fear from seemingly their most standard macro game.
Guys like Maru, Reynor, or Zest might have their own flair to the game, but INno and Serral at their peaks felt unbeatable when doing the exact same thing as everyone else.
He also has a real claim to be the best teamleague player of all time. Maru edges him out in Proleague on an individual level in my opinion, but INno carrying in GSTL and Nation Wars might put him over the edge.
It's a shame he never had a truly crowning moment in an otherwise insane career. His best chance was probably 2017 Blizzcon, barely losing to TY in the ro8 when he would have certainly won the finals against his rival soO. (The most one-sided rivalry to add, INno beat soO in 4 finals with 4-0, 4-1, 4-2 and 4-3 map scores if I remember right)
edit: Scratch that, WeSG was absolutely a crowning moment. INno spoke in interviews that his goal was to win either a Blizzcon, Katowice, or WeSG. And he had a huge fanbase in China as well
On February 07 2024 02:43 arcane1129 wrote: Inno was probably the GOAT for a while, but 5th now seems fair. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills seeing so many people underrate Dark. He has 9 years of being a consistent championship-contender, and while he has fewer golds, was on the podium (3/4th place or better) FAR more consistently than Rogue or Innovation. Rogue was notoriously weak between his championships. Also, "major" tournament wins with stacked competition count for something, particularly events like Dark's win in the AfreecaTV Champions cup with a 15k prize pool.
That said, I would have had MVP and maybe Trap on the list ahead of Rain and TY, but Dark is definitely justifiable at 4th.
Premier Gold: DH Masters 2022 Valencia 2021 GSL Code S S2 TSL6 2019 WCS Global Finals 2019 Super Tournament 2 2019 GSL Code S S2 2016 WCS Korea S2 Cross Finals (don’t count this for much) 2016 SSL S1
Silver: ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Winter 2023 GSL Code S S2 2022 Super Tournament 2 2022 Super Tournament 1 2020 Super Tournament 1 2018 Super Tournament 1 WESG 2017 2017 SSL S2 2016 WCS Global Playoffs and Finals 2016 SSL Season 2 2016 WCS Korea S1 Cross Finals (don’t really count this) 2015 Kespa Cup S2 2015 Kespa Cup S1
Bronze: 2023 GSL Code S S3 2022 GSL Code S S2 2022 GSL Code S S1 King of Battles 2 2019 GSL Code S S3 2019 GSL Code S S1 IEM Season XIII Katowice 2018 Super Tournament 2 2018 GSL vs the World 2018 GSL Code S S1 2017 Super Tournament 2 2017 GSL Code S S3 IEM Season XI World Championship IEM Season XI Gyeonggi IEM Season IX World Championship
Major Golds: WardiTV 2023 (ft. Clem, herO, Maxpax, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Solar, etc) WardiTV Spring Championship 2023 (ft. Clem, Solar, Byun, herO, Gumiho Cure, Maxpax, etc) 2022 AfreecaTV Champions Cup (ft. Maru, Serral, Reynor, Clem, herO, etc) 2022 Gladiators’ Cup (ft. Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Cure, Byun, Maxpax, etc)
Major Silvers: WardiTV Korean Royale S2 (loss to Maru) 2023 PiG Sty Festival 4.0 (loss to Serral) WardiTV Winter Championship 2023 2022 Pig Sty Festival 2.0 NeXT 2020 Winter
If this is your process that's fine, but I cast a much wider net when evaluating players. These articles are not the best way to get into the nitty gritty due to formatting, but I will be doing supplementary blogs which will cover my evaluation process.
On February 07 2024 04:28 ejozl wrote: I made a list based solely on esportsearnings. Each player's earnings divided by the top 10 earnings for that race. So we get:
Here we see that indeed Neeb>Rain. Facts don't lie.
NA players got way too much money with the WCS system, the worst offender is probably Special who won like 460k$ mostly from dominating Kelazhur and Cham for years and doing decently well in WCS region locked events…
On February 07 2024 04:28 ejozl wrote: I made a list based solely on esportsearnings. Each player's earnings divided by the top 10 earnings for that race. So we get:
Here we see that indeed Neeb>Rain. Facts don't lie.
NA players got way too much money with the WCS system, the worst offender is probably Special who won like 460k$ mostly from dominating Kelazhur and Cham for years and doing decently well in WCS region locked events…
Yeah, while I’m a consistent proponent of regional competition as a pipeline to prepping for standing on the global stage, it can be overly generous
Given that people are still unsure if we'll see MVP or Dark next, while no one was doubting Inno, I'd have thought he was locked for #4.
Crazy dominant player, with a unique macro-heavy style. He was the clear GOAT to me until 2017.
Plus, as a noob Terran player, I feel I could always re-use his builds and get great success at my level (good luck trying that with Maru's lategame or Byun reaper builds...). Thanks for everything Inno!
Wow I'm shocked that Inno isn't #4. I thought he was a lock for that spot. Neither Mvp or Dark have a good argument to be above him imo. Curious if the list will have another big surprise now.
On February 06 2024 20:38 Mizenhauer wrote: Hey, everyone. The GOAT series will continue after IEM Katowice. Thanks for all the support thus far and enjoy the weekend.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Mizenhauer/Rogue_airport.jpg)
