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WombaT
Northern Ireland25159 Posts
Ah yes that recency bias that has me argue the case that I’d maybe put Inno ahead of Rogue. I just think Serral’s consistency across every year, his winning record versus the entire field > Rogue’s extra WC and his Starleagues, all things considered and their best years occupying a similar timespan. Others folks will weigh that differently | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1852 Posts
On February 07 2024 07:43 Blargh wrote: You did all this to yourself Miz. I have no one else to blame. | ||
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Glorfindelio
203 Posts
On the bright side, think of the legendary status this article will garner regardless. The post with the most engagement outside of a LR ever? Goat'ed. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
On February 07 2024 07:38 Mizenhauer wrote: I'm going to get an ulcer waiting for this series to finish so I can finally go into certain things in more detail. You have my sentiments S2 | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1852 Posts
On February 07 2024 07:55 Glorfindelio wrote: On the bright side, think of the legendary status this article will garner regardless. The post with the most engagement outside of a LR ever? Goat'ed. Those are kind words. I'll take the compliment  | ||
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arcane1129
United States270 Posts
On February 07 2024 07:38 Mizenhauer wrote: I'm going to get an ulcer waiting for this series to finish so I can finally go into certain things in more detail. Byun's the GOAT because Blizzard had to nerf his play specifically. I'd say that's about all the detail we need. + Show Spoiler + Did that help with the ulcer? | ||
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Glorfindelio
203 Posts
On February 07 2024 07:47 WombaT wrote: Ah yes that recency bias that has me argue the case that I’d maybe put Inno ahead of Rogue. I just think Serral’s consistency across every year, his winning record versus the entire field > Rogue’s extra WC and his Starleagues, all things considered and their best years occupying a similar timespan. Others folks will weigh that differently For me, it really boils down to what I prefer to see in SC2. When I conjure up Rogue, I think of him exploiting a weakness or strategy with relentless, brutal efficiency better than anyone else in history. He almost always came in with a plan and executed it flawlessly. With Serral, it's usually been the mastery of scouting and deflecting aggression with ease before overwhelming his opponents with sprawling, elegant macro games and battling with huge, teched-up armies. Top 1-2 endgame player ever, with impeccable caster control. I don't think the difference in their styles is illustrated any better than in that TSL where Rogue dominated Serral in like 10 minutes with all-ins/trickery, versus the Blizzcon where Serral mauled Rogue in macro games, including one of the most iconic ZvZs. Personally, the latter is why I enjoy SC2, so there you have it. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On February 07 2024 08:07 Nakajin wrote: Just for shits and giggles, part of me hope we get Dark/Mvp at 3/4 and that Serral dosen't even get a top 10 spot. I think the funniest would be if someone like taeja is #4 | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1852 Posts
On February 07 2024 08:06 arcane1129 wrote: Byun's the GOAT because Blizzard had to nerf his play specifically. I'd say that's about all the detail we need. + Show Spoiler + Did that help with the ulcer? Poopi has been saying this since 2017. That served as an immunization of sorts.  | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1852 Posts
On February 07 2024 08:09 Pandain wrote: I think the funniest would be if someone like taeja is #4 Liquibias is not real. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15932 Posts
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood: 1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins) Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell: 1. Serral (23 wins-9 RunnerUps) 2. Maru (13-10) 3. TaeJa (11-2) 4. Rogue (11-1) 5. Reynor (10-10) 6. INnoVation (10-4) 7. MMA (9-4) 8. Mvp (9-2) 9. Polt (8-5) 9. herO (8-5) 13. Zest (7-6) 24. Rain (5-2) 25. sOs (4-6) 26. TY (4-3) 28. soO (3-9) Thanks for illustrating how little sense it makes to rank players purely by quantity of tournaments won | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17980 Posts
On February 07 2024 08:06 arcane1129 wrote: Byun's the GOAT because Blizzard had to nerf his play specifically. I'd say that's about all the detail we need. + Show Spoiler + Did that help with the ulcer? Stephano got there first, though, so #1 Stephano #2 Byun? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17980 Posts
On February 07 2024 08:07 Nakajin wrote: Just for shits and giggles, part of me hope we get Dark/Mvp at 3/4 and that Serral dosen't even get a top 10 spot. Given the reverence for star league and bias in favour of proleague, that could happen. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10332 Posts
On February 07 2024 07:33 Balnazza wrote: Assuming Rogue/Serral/Maru are the locked-in Top 3 in whatever order, here are my guesses for No. 4 in the order of likelyhood: 1. Reynor (only technically, seeing the heavy-weighting of korean Starleagues I assume he will not be in the Top 10) 2. herO (has the better Top 2 finishes vs. Dark, but no World Championship) 3. Dark 4. MVP (just because of the heavy-starleague weighting, I personally would not have him in the Top 10) And to include some possible underdogs: 5. TaeJa (actually still tied with Rogue on 3rd Place "Most Premier Events wins") 6. MMA (has won a Premier event in every addon) 7. Polt (same feat as MMA, just overall slightly less Premier event wins) Btw, just for funsies, here is the current Top 10 in terms of Premier event wins. I added the players of Mizenhauers list that are not on there aswell: 1. Serral (23 wins-9 RunnerUps) 2. Maru (13-10) 3. TaeJa (11-2) 4. Rogue (11-1) 5. Reynor (10-10) 6. INnoVation (10-4) 7. MMA (9-4) 8. Mvp (9-2) 9. Polt (8-5) 9. herO (8-5) 13. Zest (7-6) 24. Rain (5-2) 25. sOs (4-6) 26. TY (4-3) 28. soO (3-9) Holy shit, if we get Taeja at #4, I'm going to bow down to Miz. I wouldn't put him over Dark but I think there's a decent case for him being over MVP, especially if you weigh the first 2 years of less. Starleague or not, it's insane to basically win almost every tournament you enter for 1.5-2 years. If he had at least 1 GSL win, i think his achievements are very comparable to Life (winning a lot of foreign tournies in that era, but less results in KR). I'm hyping myself up too much. #4 is going to be Dark. MVP will be off the list mainly because he only dominated for 2 years at the very most really, at the very start of the game where - let's not forget - Terran was OP and maps were heavily Terran favored. Terran had to be continually nerfed, maps had to continually get bigger to allow Zerg to take a 3rd, etc. Anyone remember when marines and hellions outranged and could kite Queens? With active micro you could force Zerg to sac so many lings/queens vs your very few Marines/hellion... (speed upgrade wouldn't be up yet, and once it was you already had 2-4+ hellions + marines) Yeah... MVP ate well during those days, Nestea had it hard. Remember the Blizzcon invitational? He stomped Nestea because the maps were like, fucking Shattered Temple which was already outdated at that point and widely considered to not be balanced or well designed, and favored Terran because it was hard for Zerg to take a 3rd on that, as well as the huge mains which make dropping as Terran easy, and how you could siege up the front of their natural by placing tanks into the gold third with rocks. Also don't forget the power of mass Raven/PDD was not even discovered yet until late HotS, where it was still OP despite nerfing PDD from lasting like 2 minutes to 20 secs. Terran wouldn't have had trouble vs BL/Infestor at the end of WoL if Terrans simply knew to mass PDD + viking and spread the vikings a bit vs fungal. If you had a wish and could have either Dark or MVP's career, whose would you choose? I'd choose Dark. Though if you want those higher audience numbers and fame, then MVP for the emotional factor of "greatness"... | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1422 Posts
It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2718 Posts
#4 Clem #3 HerO #2 Taeja #1 TLO | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10332 Posts
On February 07 2024 08:56 jinjin5000 wrote: if Inno is #5 and he performed this high for longest time, and Serral places higher, it's foreigner/recency bias imo. I think much more value has to be given when players competed at highest level in most competitive eras between 2012-2015ish. The competitive level is much lower now compared to past no matter what people may say about skill level, even if it's higher now due to more experience with game. It's unfortunate for people who peaked later but that's what it takes to be in GOAT discussion- ideal situation and performance all rolled into one. Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc). I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore. However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Quote from article From 2010 up to 2017, what we can call the first half of StarCraft II history, INnoVation and Mvp were the only two realistic candidates to be called the GOAT. Since Rain retired in 2016, its impossible for Rain to be put over Mvp. Many people made this point already, but this affirms that Mizu believes it as well. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1422 Posts
On February 07 2024 09:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Serral did dominate or was a top player from 2018 to now the start of 2024, so that's about 6 years vs Innovation's ~6 years as well (Inno was like 1 gen after MVP's, and started falling off after 2017 iirc). I do agree with the competitiveness factor though, it's like how in BW they aren't going to name anyone else a "bonjwa" anymore because the level of competition/pedigree isn't there anymore. However, I think Serral makes a good exception. Just by the sheer amount of tournaments he's won, and his winrate being like 90%+, and has winning head-to-heads vs every other top player. I think that definitely compensates for the lower level of competition - it'd be easy for me to imagine him still being a top player if he was his age and played fulltime in an earlier era. I didn't articulate well but I felt it as more of innovation seemed to be lower than where he should be considering he did it at the most competitive era of sc2. There's exceptions to be made for Serral due to his stats but the fact he did it in "2nd half of sc2" where competitive level heavily dipped despite rising skill level, should count for less much akin to bw's asl era. | ||
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