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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On February 08 2024 07:58 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him. Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias
It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture.
Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post.
Pity about the injuries.
Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then.
In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction.
I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around
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On February 08 2024 10:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 07:58 Durnuu wrote:On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him. Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture. Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post. Pity about the injuries. Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then. In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction. I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around
I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs.
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On February 08 2024 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 10:04 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 07:58 Durnuu wrote:On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him. Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture. Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post. Pity about the injuries. Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then. In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction. I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs.
I agree with both of these, including Wax's prior point, and that Taeja is underrated. It feels like somewhere along the way we've discounted most/all of the non-KR starleague/world championship events from 2013-2016, presumably because of some sense that those were the only ones were you truly had the absolute best of the world playing. But its just kind of not fair to the fragmented nature of the scene in 2012-2016, which was both mostly pseudo-region-locked and where it just wasn't practical for all the top players to travel to every international tournament. The fact Taeja was able to get player of the year in 2013, when in retrospect everyone probably considers that Innovation's year, shows how perspectives have changed, probably unfairly.
Where does that make Taeja (and for that matter, others?) No idea, but probably enough to get top 10 to be honest, and maybe even as high as #7.
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I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?!
It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context  )
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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context )
Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League?
Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others.
Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
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On February 08 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context ) Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League? Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others. Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
Lucifron and Vortix
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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On February 08 2024 13:57 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context ) Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League? Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others. Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’ Lucifron and Vortix
Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind!
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On February 08 2024 14:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 13:57 Pandain wrote:On February 08 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context ) Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League? Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others. Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’ Lucifron and Vortix Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind!
Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports.
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On February 08 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context ) Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League? Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others. Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’
Serral and Protosser come to mind, although similar level is quite debatable
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On February 08 2024 14:12 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 14:00 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 13:57 Pandain wrote:On February 08 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context ) Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League? Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others. Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’ Lucifron and Vortix Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind! Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports.
I would throw in hero and styla, the Schellhase-twins of early FIFA. Both of them won two WCGs, making it into the Hall of Fame
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On February 08 2024 15:46 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 14:12 Pandain wrote:On February 08 2024 14:00 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 13:57 Pandain wrote:On February 08 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context ) Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League? Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others. Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’ Lucifron and Vortix Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind! Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports. I would throw in hero and styla, the Schellhase-twins of early FIFA. Both of them won two WCGs, making it into the Hall of Fame
Damn there are even hero's in FIFA? Truly the most overused ID in esports
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There are quite a few sibling legends in Halo scene. Royal1 & Royal2, Roy & Lunchbox, Ogre1 & Ogre 2. But it makes a lot more sense for games like Halo, where you probably play with your brother on a couch growing up and those are obviously in the same game. I find it most interesting when it's separate games like Inno & Guma!
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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On February 08 2024 16:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 15:46 Balnazza wrote:On February 08 2024 14:12 Pandain wrote:On February 08 2024 14:00 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 13:57 Pandain wrote:On February 08 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context ) Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League? Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others. Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’ Lucifron and Vortix Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind! Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports. I would throw in hero and styla, the Schellhase-twins of early FIFA. Both of them won two WCGs, making it into the Hall of Fame Damn there are even hero's in FIFA? Truly the most overused ID in esports
I can only assume in other languages it just sounds cooler or something? To an English native speaker it just sounds a bit lame, or ‘naff’ as us Brits say as a choice of handle.
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On February 08 2024 12:53 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:On February 08 2024 10:04 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 07:58 Durnuu wrote:On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games [b]but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him. Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture. Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post. Pity about the injuries. Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then. In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction. I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs. I agree with both of these, including Wax's prior point, and that Taeja is underrated. It feels like somewhere along the way we've discounted most/all of the non-KR starleague/world championship events from 2013-2016, presumably because of some sense that those were the only ones were you truly had the absolute best of the world playing. But its just kind of not fair to the fragmented nature of the scene in 2012-2016, which was both mostly pseudo-region-locked and where it just wasn't practical for all the top players to travel to every international tournament. The fact Taeja was able to get player of the year in 2013, when in retrospect everyone probably considers that Innovation's year, shows how perspectives have changed, probably unfairly. Where does that make Taeja (and for that matter, others?) No idea, but probably enough to get top 10 to be honest, and maybe even as high as #7.
I've been trying to think of a way to better explain how I feel about it, and you bring up a good point that the scene back then was different, as in because of the weird region locks and stuff, and there being a ton of KR pros, they ended up kind of splitting up over different regions (Polt dominating AM for example, MC dominating EU, etc.). And it's not fair to retroactively just discount wins from that era just because they weren't wins at GSLs or WCs. It's not like Taeja was dodging the best players by farming weak regions, there were strong KR players everywhere. He had close rivalries with Life and MVP, the 2 other GOAT candidates back then.
That brings me to another way I'd like to explain why I feel Taeja is underrated now.
I feel like, when we think about GOAT discussions, sometimes we end up overthinking things and weighing things a lot less or than they should. Regardless of how we might feel like weighing things now, I think it's helpful to try to remember the feeling back then of who was the most dominant and highest skilled players.
Back then, MVP and Life were basically matched in achievements and praise when it came to their skill (genius intellect, etc. etc.). And the GSL where Life beat MVP in the grand finals and stopped him from claiming a 4th GSL Code S was like a symbolic passing of the torch.
However, Taeja was right up there with them, and with Life in the post-MVP generation (his last big win is in 2013, but his peak was in 2011-2012, he was already on the decline when Taeja and Life were rising). It was often argued who was greater, Taeja or Life. They both won a ton of international weekend events in a short time of 1.5-2 years, had high placements at WC, and in Life's case he has a more rounded achievements list by winning at least one Starleague unlike Taeja. However, the feeling at the time when MVP's time was ending was that Life and Taeja were very close and the most dominant players.
We still consider MVP and Life to be top 10 best players of all time, with many people feeling they'd be ranked around #5-8 (right below Serral Maru Rogue Innovation, but above players like sOs). But in retrospect we've placed Taeja soo much lower because of how we feel we should weigh things now. I think when it comes to "greatest" players, there is merit in simply trying to remember the feeling you had of seeing Taeja dominate and win so many tournies and being on MVP/Life's tier, because back then when we were experiencing his dominance in real time, we had an understanding of the scene and what was impressive and great and what was not. I don't think we should doubt too much this feeling, come up with different metrics in retrospect that convince us that he wasn't "as impressive as we thought back then" or whatnot, because metrics are simply a way to help us make objective sense of things, but much of what makes up "greatness" is the awe and inspiring feeling you get, and if we remember we felt that he was a top player and one of the most dominant/GOAT/best players of SC2, then it's probably true.
(Meanwhile I barely remember Rain for example and I know I'm not the only one).
Also, I think the weekend tournaments that Taeja (and Life and MVP) won had high enough prize pools. Like sure, they may be lower than a GSL Code S, but a weekend tournament also takes much less time and practice and prep. The money you get for playing in 4 weekend tournaments instead of 1 Code S for example, more than made up at the time. Because of this, I don't think we can discount those weekend tournaments as like, "ah players didn't care about them as much because $15k prize isn't as much as $60k for GSL". They were all definitely trying hard to win.
Does anyone remember MLG Anaheim, one of the fiercest and most memorable "Tier 2" weekend tournaments? The one that had the Slayers TvZ BFH drop build that zergs just got dropped out of the tournament against cus they couldn't figure it out, all the TvTs and the sudden reveal that Mech was broken and players just spamming BFH against marauders, and MVP coming out on top of all that craziness with all the TvT specialists of the time? No one can go back and say "that's a T2 tournament, it's not as competitive as a GSL". To do so would just be undermining how big that tournament actually was at the time. At the time we all knew that was a huge fierce tournament cus we had a better understanding of the scene then than we have now with hazy memories. Especially not a GSL in the post COVID era. Like yes, winning 1 GSL back then was still bigger than winning 1 weekend tournament, the time invested is simply more for a season, but if Taeja is winning MANY weekend tournaments, often in a row, then that's something very different from winning one once in a while due to sheer number of attempts by staying in the scene for 10 years.
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France12738 Posts
^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger).
I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc.
But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
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Bisutopia19137 Posts
On February 08 2024 14:12 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 14:00 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 13:57 Pandain wrote:On February 08 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 12:55 Blargh wrote:I sometimes wonder if Innovation didn't decide to slack off and play LoL in his free time, whether his younger brother (Gumayusi) would've picked it up and had the success he had without his older bro to inspire him?! It is sort of remarkable that both of them ended up being some of the most successful esports players in different games. I think you could probably argue they are both top 10 players, but it's much harder to evaluate for a team game. Guma doesn't have the longevity yet since he's really only been playing since 2018, but he moved quickly up the ranks into SKT main line up, and won Bottom of the Year for 2023 (that's quite an award name... probably a good idea to say League of Legends before for context ) Haha, I wonder if there’s ever been any kind of unfortunate miscommunication involving the whole top/bottom designation elsewhere and League? Didn’t know Inno’s brother was an elite pro, rather than just a pro, that’s pretty cool. I’m sure a metric fuckton of us, and pros have either got into the game because of big brother, or inspired their younger bros. Hell, we’re at the stage it’s fathers doing it! It’s quite tricky working between night shifts and dragging him away from his mates . Has any other sibling got to even vaguely similar levels to their more famous brother in SC2? I can think of Babymarine who is/was at least semi-pro but I’m drawing a blank on others. Odd aside but our gutter, gutter tabloid press did use to have their own Bottom of the Year award they did, albeit called ‘Rear of the Year’. Which absolutely wasn’t creepy at all, especially when on more than one occasion some chicks who were 16/17 won the ‘honour’ Lucifron and Vortix Good shout, unsure how that slipped my mind! Only ones I can think of though. I'm sure there's many examples in other esports.
Not just brothers, but twins! These two were good BW players with Yellow, aka Yarnc, being much better… until they both were banned during the match fixing fiasco.
 Luxury
YellOw(ArnC)
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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On February 08 2024 16:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 12:53 Pandain wrote:On February 08 2024 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:On February 08 2024 10:04 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 07:58 Durnuu wrote:On February 08 2024 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
Funny enough, TaeJa positivity is prolly one of the things that conflicts me the most when I look back at my old opinions (we gave him player of the year in 2013. OF THE YEAR)
My views on tournaments have changed a lot over time, and with the benefit of big picture hindsight, these "tier 2" DH Opens, Homestories, and IEM Circuit stops seem far less impressive. Reading community posts, I think they've generally faded from the collective memory, outside the fact that TaeJa won a ton of them (amusingly enough, no one seems to want to remember the WCS EU and WCS AM tournaments at all).
The one TaeJa thing l still have to vouch for is the aura/vibes. Yeah, he was mashing foreigners who had no chance against him in like 85% of his games but when he did play the best guys from Korea he was every bit as good. [\b]If he had played in GSL during his prime, he would surely have contended for titles. In that sense, there was a mini-Serral thing going on with him. Guy couldn’t even win the tier 2 GSL in WCS america, stop with the liquid bias It’s been years, and while some may have gone overboard on Liquid’s lads (although HerO was my bae not Taeja) I think there’s been an over correction to the extent Taeja is actually underrated at this juncture. Especially the bolded part, it’s not as if Taeja dropped off a cliff once the Kespa influx matured. He had a sadly truncated rivalry with Life that was pretty even if memory serves, that Blizzcon semi-final was an excellent series and he was one set away from that final. He has some decent scalps of players who are making the top 10 of this series. He did win a regular IEM taking out the likes of Zest, placed top 4 in the one Flash won etc. Just scanning Liquipedia briefly after seeing your post. Pity about the injuries. Like yourself I find it difficult to really parse some of these tournaments given the weight of time passing, and the scene being very different. Trying to place myself back in that era, part of what was notable was Taeja winning a bunch close together, or even consecutively sometimes. Which is commonplace now, but even with weaker fields that was pretty uncommon then. In additional mitigation you probably had 40-50 players at the time who could play in Code S, and not just making up the numbers either. Then another few Koreans who would be ‘Code A’ level, but still better than most of the foreign scene at the time. While looking back at some runs the names may feel a bit ‘meh’ in retrospect, equally the level was probably higher than one’s initial reaction. I mean with guys like Inno and herO in the field it was a Jaedong taking the silver and a Taeja in the Ro4 so the ‘foreign’ Koreans, or at least some of them were pretty likely to have been competitive in their native comps. Actually do think Jaedong is possibly the most underrated player around I'd agree with this. Taeja certainly lacked in GSL specifically, but just because he was a weekend warrior doesn't mean he couldn't beat Koreans. People forget how good he was vs Life, or that he crushed soO 3-1 in 2014 when soO was on absolute fire. In fact he regularly beat the best players in the world outside of GSL specifically, and even then he had a few decent runs. I agree with both of these, including Wax's prior point, and that Taeja is underrated. It feels like somewhere along the way we've discounted most/all of the non-KR starleague/world championship events from 2013-2016, presumably because of some sense that those were the only ones were you truly had the absolute best of the world playing. But its just kind of not fair to the fragmented nature of the scene in 2012-2016, which was both mostly pseudo-region-locked and where it just wasn't practical for all the top players to travel to every international tournament. The fact Taeja was able to get player of the year in 2013, when in retrospect everyone probably considers that Innovation's year, shows how perspectives have changed, probably unfairly. Where does that make Taeja (and for that matter, others?) No idea, but probably enough to get top 10 to be honest, and maybe even as high as #7. I've been trying to think of a way to better explain how I feel about it, and you bring up a good point that the scene back then was different, as in because of the weird region locks and stuff, and there being a ton of KR pros, they ended up kind of splitting up over different regions (Polt dominating AM for example, MC dominating EU, etc.). And it's not fair to retroactively just discount wins from that era just because they weren't wins at GSLs or WCs. It's not like Taeja was dodging the best players by farming weak regions, there were strong KR players everywhere. He had close rivalries with Life and MVP, the 2 other GOAT candidates back then. That brings me to another way I'd like to explain why I feel Taeja is underrated now. I feel like, when we think about GOAT discussions, sometimes we end up overthinking things and weighing things a lot less or than they should. Regardless of how we might feel like weighing things now, I think it's helpful to try to remember the feeling back then of who was the most dominant and highest skilled players. Back then, MVP and Life were basically matched in achievements and praise when it came to their skill (genius intellect, etc. etc.). And the GSL where Life beat MVP in the grand finals and stopped him from claiming a 4th GSL Code S was like a symbolic passing of the torch. However, Taeja was right up there with them, and with Life in the post-MVP generation (his last big win is in 2013, but his peak was in 2011-2012, he was already on the decline when Taeja and Life were rising). It was often argued who was greater, Taeja or Life. They both won a ton of international weekend events in a short time of 1.5-2 years, had high placements at WC, and in Life's case he has a more rounded achievements list by winning at least one Starleague unlike Taeja. However, the feeling at the time when MVP's time was ending was that Life and Taeja were very close and the most dominant players. We still consider MVP and Life to be top 10 best players of all time, with many people feeling they'd be ranked around #5-8 (right below Serral Maru Rogue Innovation, but above players like sOs). But in retrospect we've placed Taeja soo much lower because of how we feel we should weigh things now. I think when it comes to "greatest" players, there is merit in simply trying to remember the feeling you had of seeing Taeja dominate and win so many tournies and being on MVP/Life's tier, because back then when we were experiencing his dominance in real time, we had an understanding of the scene and what was impressive and great and what was not. I don't think we should doubt too much this feeling, come up with different metrics in retrospect that convince us that he wasn't "as impressive as we thought back then" or whatnot, because metrics are simply a way to help us make objective sense of things, but much of what makes up "greatness" is the awe and inspiring feeling you get, and if we remember we felt that he was a top player and one of the most dominant/GOAT/best players of SC2, then it's probably true. [b](Meanwhile I barely remember Rain for example and I know I'm not the only one). Also, I think the weekend tournaments that Taeja (and Life and MVP) won had high enough prize pools. Like sure, they may be lower than a GSL Code S, but a weekend tournament also takes much less time and practice and prep. The money you get for playing in 4 weekend tournaments instead of 1 Code S for example, more than made up at the time. Because of this, I don't think we can discount those weekend tournaments as like, "ah players didn't care about them as much because $15k prize isn't as much as $60k for GSL". They were all definitely trying hard to win. Does anyone remember MLG Anaheim, one of the fiercest and most memorable "Tier 2" weekend tournaments? The one that had the Slayers TvZ BFH drop build that zergs just got dropped out of the tournament against cus they couldn't figure it out, all the TvTs and the sudden reveal that Mech was broken and players just spamming BFH against marauders, and MVP coming out on top of all that craziness with all the TvT specialists of the time? No one can go back and say "that's a T2 tournament, we can't weigh it as much compared to a GSL". To do so would just be undermining how big that tournament actually was at the time. At the time we all knew that was a huge fierce tournament cus we had a better understanding of the scene then than we have now with hazy memories. Especially not a GSL in the post COVID era. Like yes, winning 1 GSL back then was still bigger than winning 1 weekend tournament, the time invested is simply more for a season, but if Taeja is winning MANY weekend tournaments, often in a row, then that's something very different from winning one once in a while due to sheer number of attempts by staying in the scene for 10 years.
Very well said sir, if you ever whack up a full article on TL I look forward to reading it!
Time erodes context, unless one really tries to put it back in.
I present Arguably Taeja’s most impressive moment, and possibly the finest weekend performance going
In 2023 looking back, some of those names will resonate as a B, or a C tier retrospectively, but at that time you’re talking the best teams around and most of the strongest active players. There’s some huge scalps in there too.
Multiple 4-kills, and an all-kill in the final, and still on the rematch due to upper bracket advantage he nailed a couple and it looked at one point like he could pull it back off.
I’d absolutely maintain this is one of the all-time great feats, running a gauntlet where opponents and races are quickly changing and having to adjust to that with little prep time. And in a Bo1 format to boot, where a cheeky cheese or a BO disadvantage just one time can end your run. And in the games that go down the macro route, having to outplay some damn tough opposition every time too.
I think it’s a pity we never really saw the combo of busy weekender and team competition again like that, and perhaps because that format has been so uncommon this accomplishment lies a bit under the radar?
Also is it just me or is it showing that Liquid won that? :S And a few odd quirks in the results. Like apparently Taeja all-killed Prime in the upper bracket but Slayers advanced and Liquid dropped to lower
As for the bolded, understandable, and I shall forgive you on account of you being Terran scum :p
Transporting back to myself at this time, having not grown up with pro-BW, just on account of not discovering places such as this in my couple of years casually playing as a pre-teen, but somewhat retrospectively immersing myself in those years. We hear the switch is happening, you get articles like ‘The Elephant in the Room’ and it’s pretty exciting. What are the guys like Flash and Bisu gonna show in this new game?
Instead, in terms of adaptation you get this guy Rain who BW vets knew was very talented, probably would have accomplished quite a lot in BW if it had continued a bit longer, and who many of us had never heard of show up. Not quite immediately out of the gate but, remarkably quickly he was throwing hands with the best, and not only that he was doing it with a rock solid macro game, which was quite the stylistic departure for Protoss.
He wasn’t the first to do this, indeed (and as a big fanboy of said player), Liquid’s HerO was playing something like that, especially in PvZ, and indeed Rain in an interview said he was the existing Protoss he took most inspiration from, but where HerO was mercurial, Rain was just rock solid.
In addition he basically solved PvP which was, and IMO has almost always been the most volatile of the mirrors, in the sense of ‘does the better player advance?’
It was like he just showed the class how to play PvT and PvZ anew, and demonstrated his PvP but people just couldn’t quite replicate his understanding (kind of like nowadays where MaxPax is the only guy who can do his fast expo style, even though everyone knows about it).
All things considered Rain is a controversial choice for the top 10 because it necessitates one of Dark or Mvp to drop out, which I have issues with, but it’s hard to overstate quite how revolutionary and just outright skilled he was in his time. I’d consider him personally, just skill wise, and that he went back to BW and won an ASL maybe the most talented, or the ‘best’ Protoss, just not the greatest by virtue of his short span. Zest’s already in ahead of him, but I think Stats and Classic/herO have an argument too.
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On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote:
^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger).
I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc.
But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count.
I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
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France12738 Posts
On February 08 2024 18:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote:
^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger).
I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc.
But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count. I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
For sure it's an incredible achievement, and he didn't stop playing early like mvp or others, so we had to see him in a worse light than his prime. It's also a prime example of the difference between greatness and GOAT list, versus for example Best of All Time lists.
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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On February 08 2024 18:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 17:08 Poopi wrote:
^ I don't think it's as simple as that, I personally didn't watch as much HotS as WoL (basically watched from start to finish), or LotV (actually watched from start to now, still going strong :D), yet I remember Rain perfectly for his ability to play strong standard protoss. Kinda like what Stats did, or ShoWTimE, but making it work (albeit in a different game where protoss was stronger).
I also don't think Life is "easily" in a top 10 list, when there are a lot of players that achieved much greater things. Even in terms of style and mechanics, Life was basically a better Stephano (who already raised lings runbyes and such to another level back then), and Reynor is a better Life. Sure, there are a lot of QoL changes now and the infamous windows registry "hack" to have even faster fire rate, and players had the time to adapt / perfect small mechanical things, like the mouse wheel scrolling + moving to the sides of the screen thing of Serral, camera locations and group rebinding, etc.
But it's not obvious that Life would have adapted / kept on improving to the current mechanical tiers.
Also the sOs case is peculiar imho: I get how Miz can rate him #8 by being generous with the windows of domination of each player, and not holding their "weak" eras too much against them, but sOs to me has been so lackluster in LotV (outside of his GSL finals vs INno and iirc ByuN?), that after seeing him be "bad" compared to other LotV protoss for so many years, I have a hard time putting him in top 10, or even top 15, despite the huge WC count. I just think winning three WCs within 3 years during the Kespa era is one of the craziest achievements ever and that alone should guarantee him a top 10 spot. I mean, it's a record that even 9 years later hasn't been surpassed despite the competition being much weaker and the rise of the GOAT-level players like Serral or Maru
The crazier part is he didn’t win a huge amount outside of those titles, whereas Innovation and Maru amongst others haven’t won one.
Shows a remarkable clutch factor in the lad.
And yes I’m aware of WESG, and it’s a great achievement but those tournament fields weren’t quite at the level of what most consider WCs. In terms of difficulty, qualifying as a Korean representative is crazy hard, and obviously everyone would have been practicing hardcore for that process.
But the tournament itself you don’t have to answer the question of ‘can I peak for a weekend, on stage against the best of the best?’
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EPT
