New SC2 Balance Test Mod (along with new map pool) - Page 5

On August 25 2023 18:44 tigera6 wrote:
There is no simply fixing to Mech in TvP, period. Unless you deal some surprisingly high eco damage early, its never a fair fight when Protoss start making the Robo units. Immortal/Colossus/Disruptor are made to kill Mech army left and right, and with Archon/Chargelot support, how are you going to touch them? It will follow the same path of turtling with Tanks/Mines and trying to get into Sky Terran while Protoss taking the entire map like Zerg.

Now for TvZ, the new Cyclone together with Helion/Hellbat is a great counter to LingBaneHydra and Roach/Ravager (with tank support). So that should help with the meta a bit, I do not know how this new Cyclone will work against Muta. If Terran can just make Cyclone/Helion to counter most of Zerg opening, and then transition into Tank/Thor and later Ghost, then I think this is very promising in TvZ. But then again, if the banes nerf going through, I think Terran would still prefer Bio over this.

On August 25 2023 19:12 Vision_ wrote:


Yes i agree but the nerf of centrifugal hooks looks necessary (as old blizzard team tried an ultimate nerf on banelings damage and set aside the possibility of tweak his supply cost). Then terran deathball is either overpowered (which means you have to tweak medivacs) or you have to buff hydralisks (which has been an issue with colossus in particulary). So core changes would be really hard to do without creating a map based on relationship between units in each period of the game (which is a lot of work and need a collaboration with pro / big project)


This balance patch seems not to adress a big tweak which everybody agree, but let s imagine you re pro and just played bio terran which is stressfull and apm-demanding, i could think the switch to mech could be interesting in order to rest a little bit.

Then i would be interesting to read comments reaction from pro players regarding this new incomming patch. (and regarding the China community patch also). Something to resume pro toughts by tl writers

Actually looking at the China Community Patch, i can say i like their tweaks concerning Medivacs, Ravens, Infestators, High Templars and Oracle.

I dislike the chtinious buff (prefer a regeneration ability like Mutalisks) and i m pretty curious about BC / Carriers tweaks.

On August 25 2023 19:49 Fubika24 wrote:


Do we really need even more people to come up with their own balance changes? The current esl proposal already took ages to come due to disagreement between pros.
Do Chinese players not have any representation in the balance council?

On August 25 2023 21:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:


Wow it's been a while, I remember you! Agreed on the new Cyclone not being as potent in the early game in many ways. However, being able to reactor them out for cheap might allow you to gain map control vs Protoss in the early game, if you stay active and keep trading in small numbers (like 4-8 Cyclones) before your army gets too bulky.

One thing you mentioned that would greatly help mech is for their units to become more supply efficient. That's supposed to be a benefit of going mech, you have a weaker smaller army earlier in the game, but as long as you survive you can hopefully eventually get more bases with more army/tanks spread out on the map to hold positions.

If the Cyclone is slightly more supply efficient (I think it might be, since it has 100 HP instead of 80 HP, and if you have good multitasking you can overcome the clunkiness by having multiple squads spread around the map to poke/harass), then that could be an indirect way of allowing Mech to build more tanks.

Baneling HP nerf will also thankfully help PFs defend vs them slightly better, and stop Zerg crashing mass baneling into your 4th/5th.

I would like the balance council to continue to think of creative ways that can make Cyclone stronger specifically for someone playing Mech. One way is to make it so that Cyclones zone a larger space and can force/encourage your opponent to committ into you and your Tanks (or else try to retreat and lose a few units for free). The current Cyclone is kind of good for that since it has a much larger Lock-On range. I would suggest increasing Lock-On to 7, Lock-On range to 12, but maybe give it a 4 second cooldown. That would more allow it to zone and kill expensive units but not infinitely due to the small cooldown, while still being weaker vs smaller cheap units like Zerglings and Marines. Which you have Hellions for.

Being able to snipe expensive units or at least make them more scared to go out on the map freely is important, because your other Mech units like Tanks, Hellions, etc. are already strong at killing big armies of cheaper units. It's the expensive tech units like Immortals, Disruptors, Ravagers, etc. that need an answer, especially with EMP getting weaker and Immortal Barrier being better vs Tanks now.

On August 25 2023 16:47 Vision_ wrote:
Actually Cyclones statistics are very close to Hydralisks,

Of course they can hit while moving but is it enought ? Do we wait years for having a clone of hydralisks ?



If we are talking about the same thing (Plus there s also TvZ hellbat spot against zergling and broodlings so that s why i suggest to decrease their damage a little bit more) maybe we need to increase their difference between armored and light a little bit more from 11 + 2 to 9 + 5

Then probably their upgraded speed is too high, maybe a small reduction to increase difference with hydralisks

On August 25 2023 20:01 Lyyna wrote:
edit : ddamn that got big. Thought i would just do a couple paragraphs and move on
Maybe i still haven't lost all of my passion...

Haven't commented here in a long time, but it looks like a mech centric patch and the WoL OGs still around may remember me as one of the big mech guys back in the days...

For general street cred, been Master 1 since it existed with occasional forays in GM, playing only mech (as i both hate the bio gameplay and theme, and am slow as hell, and used to be awful at any micro situation) in every matchup, and writer of some of the biggest mech guides, particularly in TvP, on this site.
I am not a pro, but i'm a reasonably good player, and i am VERY experienced with mech play

The goal of making mech better in more situations, particularly TvP, is commendable, as i've always been a believer of the SCBW TvP matchup being one of the most iconic thing in RTS, and i personally find bio awfully boring to watch after a couple of games, especially whenever specialist units such as tanks or ravens are pushed out of it (wooow another drop-centric marine/marauder/mine/medivac game that ends up in EMP carpetting versus the exact same mix of protoss units every game ? daaaamn)
However, it doesn't address any fundamental issue the strategy has, and the notes give a definite taste of suggestions given by people who haven't really played much Mech, and have mostly just watched the couple of progames where it popped, mostly in battlemech style, and usually got destroyed, to draw conclusions

Note that my answer will be generally focused on the higher level of play, assuming good mechanics, knowledge of matchups, and game reading ; it has been amply demonstrated (included by yours truly in WoL & HotS, which were so ridiculously anti-mech it's a miracle i didn't die from heightened blood pressure somewhere in 2013-2014) that below that level, you can get by with any strategy with good macro and a decent understanding of what you're doing.

I am also not going to dwaddle on "solutions" ; this isn't the scope of this topic, quite a few things would touch the core design of the game, and there are a thousand different ways to go about it, and the exercise would be more appropriate for an hour long Youtube video with a clickbaity title ("He wants to do WHAT do fix mech ?!?! INSANE PATCHNOTES PROPOSAL 11111!!")

First of all, what are the issues of mech play right now ?
The main one is a massive vulnerability to specific timing attacks due to the openings you're forced in. The rest actually is almost irrelevant, as this all stems from this : it means most mech games end right at the 10 minute marks from a large timing, or requires so many shenanigans to stay alive that you're so far behind nothing else is important anyway.

The first source of this issue is that Mech play takes a humongous time to come online ; early on, you are very vulnerable to aggression, as you cannot rely on the strength and mobility of stim bio to both control the map, and put pressure on the opponent.

As a result, your openings either fall in the categories of
- being overly defensive (uncommon at the pro level), which is playable but requires massive experience to play as they put you largely in the dark and let a competent opponent pick you apart from getting early map control, or
- being overly focused on harassment (typical example would be BC openings in TvZ, or mine/hellion drop shenanigans in TvP). These can work... if the opponent allows for it. It is the general issue of harass-centric openings : you are gambling a lot of resources hoping to do actual damage, often with specialist units that aren't particularly useful afterwards. By comparison, bio has the option of getting units early on the map that don't require a lot of economic sacrifice, and can be kept alive as they're very mobile and can be withdrawn easily to fight later, while having the capability to swing in and do good damage if the opportunity arises.
And what usually happens, at high level, is that the harassment is mostly deflected with relatively little damage ; it is a natural thing now that the game is very mature and most builds are well figured out
However, it means that the mech infrastructure is often delayed, in order to get these specialist harassment units out, and these units add little to your combat power. You are extremely strapped for resources, in particular gas (though hellions are an insane drain on your mineral as well), and adding 3rd CC/extra facts & arms comes incredibly late, which is bad considering bio openings are now showing they can get away with ever earlier 3rd CCs & uppgrades thanks to well mapped out 2 barracks openings)
Aaaaand that's why we usually get the mech player gets flattened a few minutes later ; usually a massive roach max, which he has a whopping 4-6 gas units out (i'm so betting on 4 cyclones & 2 tanks to beat a roach max. I'm sure these 8 hellions and 2 BCs will also be a major factor here), or any kind of agressive protoss bust on the ground, or a 2-3 raven push where the bio player has the same tank count as you do, but he also has a strong marine/marauder force to face your 10 hellions (though thanksfully that's the rarest ; for some reason even in 2023, GM terrans consider smashing headfirst into tanks with pure bio without any tank or air support a good strategy. No wonder my TvT often got to 70+% winrate over entire seasons...)

The second issue is that mech units are hilariously bad in small numbers ; both due to their own characteristics, and due to the presence of very strong counters
In TvP, the obvious example is the interaction with zealots & immortals ; both of these utterly destroy all mech units until you get to a critical, well uppgraded mass.
Tanks are very costly, particularly in supply, and their damage individually is fairly lackluster versus units they cannot oneshot and can easily reach them.
The hellions is surprisingly good and underrated in large battles, but in small numbers is a joke and suffer from being terrible to micro
The cyclone (current version) is expensive, clunky to maneuver as soon as you get a few out, and unless you can target valuable units, it feels more often that not that you're just killing enemy trash units not even as fast as they're producing them.
The Thor with repair is an early game monster... but it's not exactly realistic to get out, and it's stuck to wherever our SCVs are ; otherwise it gets dismantled in a very litteral sense very easily.
That ties directly into the previous problem ; not only you're forced into an aggro open that strongly delays your infrastructure, and/or have to concede map control to your opponent, but your initial combat units are extremely weak until you get a good number of them, which leads to several minutes of your opponent potentially being at full development while you're still barely starting to get steaming.
There is the added issue (compounded by the lack of map control) of mech units being very specialized. Any mech player who assumed a roach opening and saw these damn 10 mutas flying over your tanks knows the feeling.
On the other hand, early game, is there a thing that bio cannot either fight or run from to find damage elsewhere ?

The third issue is due to a fundamental SC2 design : everything is SO DAMN FAST.
Losing an army very often means death in the midgame, which is why we usually so players focusing on harassing and map control over outright attacks unless they get a definite advantage
In the lategame, when both opponents stretch out over 5-6 bases, you can often recover... assuming you get a decent bank, that you have decent units producing fast, and can easily shuffle around units in order to either defend the enemy from further advancing, recovering lost ground, or putting pressure elsewhere to force him to retreat.
Aaaand if you have experience with mech you know where this is going : this gets pretty bad when you have the most expensive, slowest producing, least mobile army in the game. This gets exacerbated by the lack of experience of a lot of pro players with mech, showing glaring issues (unless you're Cure or Maru) essentially playing mech as either "bio but with hellions or cyclones" or turtling with one specific comp and never adapting to the specificity of the strategy
There are workarounds, and mech can shine in the lategame, but it has massive drawbacks, requires good experience to pick solutions to some of the issues you face, and you usually don't get many advantages over the usual "bio with late game/air transition" which gets all the perks of mech while still retaining a core of fast produced, relatively cheap, extremely mobile & strong units.
And this links up to the previous two issues ; not only you are sacrificing your map control and infrastructure, not only your units are very vulnerable early... but losing a fight early often means death. You can't get units fast, and your opponent can very quickly compound a winning fight into deadly damage.

Soooo now onto the patch...
I ask : does the patch address ANY of these issue?
Nope
It turns the cyclone into a general purpose, marauder-ish unit, a bulky, somewhat inexpensive frontline unit made to tank... something the hellion did better, especially being mineral only, and light, which is strong versus most mech counter-units.
It also loses most of its damage, and the early cyclone power was one of the few things allowing for reasonable mech opening that aren't based on harass/early damage ; not particularly good for tournaments, although we're seeing some fun marine/cyclone drops these days, but definitely viable to general purpose ladder play. That also means losing what is making battlemech somewhat relevant : the ability to kill some powerful units very, very fast
This is the kind of modification that comes from someone saying "hey let's make mech more battlemechy" without thinking beyond that.

Amusingly, the raven change makes it even worse for mech : you're already strapped for gas, and it was already a big requirement anyway to get early air superiority while the bio player had to get medivacs out, to deny the enemy's ravens.
So now the mech player has to lose some extra gas early in order to use his ravens to prevent the enemy's bio from matching his tanks and ravens count in the early game while having better mineral-only units and more mobility ? Yeaaaaah !

Aaand that's it for the terran changes relevant to mech..

On the other hand, the broodlord, one of mech's traditional weakness (though it is very easy to fight in the hand of most zergs, as unsupported Thors vs Broodlords is a massacre, on the other hand Broodlords supported by vipers, infestors, and other units massacre any ground-based force so the same doesn't hold true at the pro level), now gets faster. Yeah.
Tempest getting more microable, because it wasn't the death of terran air enough already, yeah.
Air uppgrades getting cheaper across the board, because terran air was too strong i guess, and air transitions weren't enough of a glaring weakness for mech ? Yeaaah


So none of the issues of mech are adressed. The only strong, non-harass based opening that gave some map control is killed. And some of its counters were soft-buffed.
Instead we may just end up with a bastardized version of battlemech, reminiscent of the lovely mass reactored cyclone era, which everyone of course enjoyed so much.

On August 25 2023 22:35 Athenau wrote:

Moving shot is a huge difference. The Cyclone is not a hydralisk clone.

On August 25 2023 22:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
....
This reminds me, I would once again like to suggest buffing Hellion damage from 8 (+6 vs Light) to 9 (+5 vs Light). It's such a small change but it really would help Mech players slightly. In TvT, Mech is pretty weak early on because Bio is much stronger than Hellions. And in TvZ, Banelings, Queens, Roach, Ravager, etc. take little damage from Hellions. In TvP, Hellion vs Stalker is already an interesting battle in bigger numbers, but if Stalkers split a little then they win easily.

Giving Hellions just 1 more damage vs these units wouldn't make them suddenly beat them or make players mass Hellions, but it would soften one of Mech's weaknesses and make them more stable, and more supply efficient. That would also allow Cyclones to be more specialized and more powerful. And imagine the fun Hellion vs Blink Stalker micro battles!

On August 25 2023 21:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I would like the balance council to continue to think of creative ways that can make Cyclone stronger specifically for someone playing Mech. One way is to make it so that Cyclones zone a larger space and can force/encourage your opponent to committ into you and your Tanks (or else try to retreat and lose a few units for free). The current Cyclone is kind of good for that since it has a much larger Lock-On range. I would suggest increasing Lock-On to 7, Lock-On range to 12, but maybe give it a 4 second cooldown. That would more allow it to zone and kill expensive units but not infinitely due to the small cooldown, while still being weaker vs smaller cheap units like Zerglings and Marines. Which you have Hellions for.

On August 26 2023 02:45 geokilla wrote:
Watching the tournament, I can say with 100% certainty this patch is terrible. Whoever thought letting pros decide balance was a good idea needs to get checked.

On August 26 2023 03:23 WombaT wrote:

What highlights/lowlights were there for any of us who didn’t watch?

On August 26 2023 03:26 geokilla wrote:

I caught Lambo vs Spirit series. Terran mech is really strong, especially Cyclones. Long story short, everything just melts. Wardi said something along the lines of that there's no downside to locking on because there's no cooldown to lockon. I agree with his statement. I'd be frustrated as a Zerg and Protoss player.

On August 26 2023 02:45 geokilla wrote:
Watching the tournament, I can say with 100% certainty this patch is terrible. Whoever thought letting pros decide balance was a good idea needs to get checked.