EPTNew SC2 Balance Test Mod (along with new map pool) - Page 11
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Athenau
571 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On September 01 2023 12:08 Athenau wrote: I think the mothership redesign is flying under the radar. Having a bigger recall available every 89s is kinda huge, I wouldn't be surprised if we see players building a mothership just so they can park it somewhere and use it as an oh-shit button. You're right, 89 sec is much faster than the ~125 secs it took to regen 100 energy. You could be a lot more active and make a lot more plays, like attacking on one side then recalling to the other side. It will be a lot more challenging to split your army to be able to prepare for that. | ||
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Vision_
875 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7139 Posts
On September 01 2023 18:09 Vision_ wrote: Do you know when the next tournament is ? (with balance patch) Typically HomestoryCup Winter Edition (December'ish) is the first tournament using a new patch meta. Before that, Wardi usually does some new beta patch/ maps tournament (November'ish). | ||
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Drahkn
196 Posts
On September 01 2023 12:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: You're right, 89 sec is much faster than the ~125 secs it took to regen 100 energy. You could be a lot more active and make a lot more plays, like attacking on one side then recalling to the other side. It will be a lot more challenging to split your army to be able to prepare for that. I wouldn't worry to much , it is protoss we ar talking about , if something is a little strong it will get nerfed within a week or two | ||
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AssyrianKing
Australia2116 Posts
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
On September 01 2023 07:10 WombaT wrote: Why does mech have to be more viable? Why can’t SkyToss be potent in both matchups? Why can’t Zergs build whatever the fuck they want and prosper? Throughout SC2 only Terran get these continual tweaks to enable a ‘style’ that isn’t even consistently defined Terrans always have the most design focus. Also cause there are more terrans fans compare to the other 2 races More terrans advancing in tournaments results in more “views”. It’s also a business decision (whether we like it or not) Throughout history anything that appears OP or disadvantage to Terrans, gets nerfed instantly. Anything OP from terrans results in the other 2 races to just “deal with it” or “adapt” (took a whole expansion to nerf widow mines invisibility issue) User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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xPrimuSx
95 Posts
As to some of the potential changes, since Cyclones seem to be the cause du jour might as well post my own idea. I was thinking of echoing the Roach-Ravager relationship with a little bit of Corsair thrown in. Base Cyclone is short ranged with low damage and fast attack for high overall DPS. It also has full splash in a short radius around the target and move while shooting. With lock-on, attack and move speed are significantly reduced but range and damage per shot greatly increased, lock-on would be a researchable upgrade and have a cooldown The goal would be to have a unit that can tear through units, particularly most early game units, when numbers are small but has a natural drop off due to range in larger numbers as many would just not be firing. This is compensated for and provides greater support for positional mech play later when the army itself is slower by being able to target and kill high priority enemy units at range so that the opponent needs to back off or throw everything into the fight. You can also have a semi-recreation of blink micro with the front Cyclones using normal firing and rear ones using lock-on. Once lock-on is expended have the groups switch places so the former front line can lock-on and the former back line can attack as regular while waiting for lock-on to come back. I acknowledge this is similar to the tornado blaster but there are some differences that hopefully would be meaningful enough to work | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26498 Posts
On September 01 2023 12:08 Athenau wrote: I think the mothership redesign is flying under the radar. Having a bigger recall available every 89s is kinda huge, I wouldn't be surprised if we see players building a mothership just so they can park it somewhere and use it as an oh-shit button. I’m unsure if it compensates enough for the lack of perma-cloak, it’s still quite expensive and it’s very high up the tech tree. Perhaps not but it feels the types of game you’d get it will be those kind of split map wars of attrition, and likely Skytoss. And if so does slightly more frequent recall potential and a slightly cheaper mommaship beat having your units and structures constantly cloaked, and Z/T burning detection just to even investigate if they can engage? Not sure myself, as more games are played I guess we’ll find out. Why not just buff Protoss’ macro mechanics lategame via an upgrade. You could make chrono slightly stronger, and enable it to be used to reduce cool-downs on recall too. To a minimum reduction of course, you wouldn’t want recalls every 10 seconds that would be silly. Protoss macro mechanics already don’t scale that well into lategame anyway, if you’re effectively buffing a mommaship just for recalls, why not just buff Nexus abilities instead? To me teching up to build an expensive unit just for one ability, that isn’t even a unique ability is a bit wonky | ||
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Athenau
571 Posts
On September 02 2023 03:13 WombaT wrote: I’m unsure if it compensates enough for the lack of perma-cloak, it’s still quite expensive and it’s very high up the tech tree. Perhaps not but it feels the types of game you’d get it will be those kind of split map wars of attrition, and likely Skytoss. And if so does slightly more frequent recall potential and a slightly cheaper mommaship beat having your units and structures constantly cloaked, and Z/T burning detection just to even investigate if they can engage? Not sure myself, as more games are played I guess we’ll find out. Why not just buff Protoss’ macro mechanics lategame via an upgrade. You could make chrono slightly stronger, and enable it to be used to reduce cool-downs on recall too. To a minimum reduction of course, you wouldn’t want recalls every 10 seconds that would be silly. Protoss macro mechanics already don’t scale that well into lategame anyway, if you’re effectively buffing a mommaship just for recalls, why not just buff Nexus abilities instead? To me teching up to build an expensive unit just for one ability, that isn’t even a unique ability is a bit wonky TBH, I think the mothership is a dumb unit, and they should just bring back the arbiter. In every case where there's a BW unit and SC2 unit that overlaps (reaver/disruptor, mothership/arbiter, vulture/hellion, guardian/broodlord, defiler/viper) I think the BW design is unequivocally superior. But IMO the redesign is still a buff, and I wouldn't object to restoring perma-cloak, though I'm not convinced it ever made much of a difference since detection is so abundant in the lategame. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On September 02 2023 03:13 WombaT wrote: I’m unsure if it compensates enough for the lack of perma-cloak, it’s still quite expensive and it’s very high up the tech tree. Perhaps not but it feels the types of game you’d get it will be those kind of split map wars of attrition, and likely Skytoss. And if so does slightly more frequent recall potential and a slightly cheaper mommaship beat having your units and structures constantly cloaked, and Z/T burning detection just to even investigate if they can engage? Not sure myself, as more games are played I guess we’ll find out. Why not just buff Protoss’ macro mechanics lategame via an upgrade. You could make chrono slightly stronger, and enable it to be used to reduce cool-downs on recall too. To a minimum reduction of course, you wouldn’t want recalls every 10 seconds that would be silly. Protoss macro mechanics already don’t scale that well into lategame anyway, if you’re effectively buffing a mommaship just for recalls, why not just buff Nexus abilities instead? To me teching up to build an expensive unit just for one ability, that isn’t even a unique ability is a bit wonky Totally down to push chronoboosting being usable on units, canons, and batteries! 1 Chrono gives 50% boost, so if used on a Battery it would heal 75 shield per second at 4.5 shield per 1 energy, which is the rate of Overcharge, up from 50 shield per sec at 3 shield per 1 energy). If stacking chrono is too strong, then we can just keep it at 1 chrono per unit/building. Overcharge could be removed if it's too strong or too redundant. If stackable, the maximum buff could be at double. So canons could fire 2x as fast, batteries heal 2x as fast, unit cooldowns 50% as long. Would allow for more aggression and timings, and the opponent would need to respect harass options more due to less predictable timings. Or let chronoboost stack a total of 2 times. (If used twice, it would give a flat 50% + 50% boost, it wouldn't stack like 50% * 50% = 125% boost). It's pretty crazy what you can do with 10 OCs, and pretty crazy what you can do with 200 larva. Recall doesn't really scale lategame since the AOE is pretty limited and meant more for early/mid game. Overcharge doesn't scale. Chronoboost falls off and becomes almost useless once you've researched most things already. Chronoboosting your 20 Gates isn't that effective, and isn't really even worth the APM. Would be cool if you can chronoboost your Colossus or Disruptors, or your 20 Carriers/Tempests so they can fight mass BC on more even ground. I guess the biggest issue is that chronoboosting units to attack faster isn't really a macro mechanic anymore. Maybe it can just be used to chronoboost units to regen energy and shields 100% faster. This could help HTs get energy to defend early timings. It could be used to help Batteries regen energy 100% faster too. So in 1 chronoboost it'd allow a HT or battery to regen like 32 energy instead of 16. It'd not be super impactful but it'd have its niche uses I'm sure, and help provide more of a defender's advantage and some comeback potential (more anti-snowball is good for SC2). | ||
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xPrimuSx
95 Posts
On September 02 2023 03:13 WombaT wrote: Why not just buff Protoss’ macro mechanics lategame via an upgrade. You could make chrono slightly stronger, and enable it to be used to reduce cool-downs on recall too. To a minimum reduction of course, you wouldn’t want recalls every 10 seconds that would be silly. Protoss macro mechanics already don’t scale that well into lategame anyway, if you’re effectively buffing a mommaship just for recalls, why not just buff Nexus abilities instead? Pretty much this. However unlike what some people have said I don't think making chrono apply to units is a good idea. Still buffing Chrono would be good. In the Protoss design focus thread I posted a idea on that, reposted here Current CB is a flat 50% boost for 20 seconds at 50 energy. My idea would be something like Stage1: 20% boost -> Stage 2: 40% boost -> Stage 3: 80% boost, with chrono now lasting 15 seconds and costing 25 energy. To move from one stage to another you need to boost the target structure within 5-8 seconds of the last CB expiring. Time averaged current CB gets you 50% boost for 60s with minimal effort for 150 energy, while my change would get you 55% over the same time at 100 energy and a lot more effort. However, every boost after that would be dramatically better, provided you have the energy to keep chrono going and don't miss a chrono and get reset to Stage 1. Another way to buff Nexus would be to add a variable to Strategic Recall's cooldown based on how many Nexus you have. The more Nexus the shorter the cooldown (within reason). Probably balance it out so that at 3 base it's basically the same and afterwards it's better. Say baseline cooldown is 160 seconds and it is reduced by 15 seconds for each additional Nexus you have after the first one. At a standard 3 base that gets you back to current cooldown of 130 seconds, but at 7 bases (normal max on a map) it's a staggering 55 second cooldown and would help defend multiple bases and incentive picking off a Nexus or potentially building "macro" Nexuses. Now 55 seconds is kinda ridiculous so you'd probably want to add a ceiling to the effect, like it counts the 2nd Nexus up to the 5th Nexus (cooldown max of 100 seconds) | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary407 Posts
( for my taste the simple flat up to 3 times stack seems to be the best, +50,+100,+150% speedups, independent 20s timers for each cast ) and probably warp units without shields if they are not close to a nexus. i also like Yoshi's chronoed battery with the removed overcharge (so there's no cooldown on battery chrono, you can do it again and again if you have the energy) Nexus could receive some fun spells like * f.ck you / next time you pull out: stasis everything for ~20s (probes, marine drop) around nexus (r~10) * f.ck me / oh no the 2 base push again: effective around nexus (r~10) for every friendly unit: add 25 shield and start shield regen immediately | ||
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Vision_
875 Posts
Protoss : 1 L, 4 A, 1 N Terran : 3 L, 4 A, 1 N Zerg : 2 L, 3 A, 2 N There are a balance problem if you wanna something clear and read-able. Only one light armor protoss is a serious problem. If we add cyclones and balance a little bit with hellions (which will be useless in end game with this new patch, my bet) suddenly you can check now Terran have as many armored units as Protoss but only one light armor unit (while Terrans have three). There s an obvious uniformity problem, so Stalkers have to be tweaked like armored units then the ratio between Light and armored will be 66% or 75% (in the case of terrans) PS : someone can open a discuss thread on the ratio between light and armored by race if he wants | ||
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Vision_
875 Posts
+ Armored tag removed, Stalkers is now Light units + hit points and shield from 80 / 80 to 65 / 65 + base damage from 13 (+1) to 11 (+2) + dps increased from 1.34 to 1.00 (Previous patch 4.00) Then marines with shield with 1 armor upgrade need the same amount of shots (5) for being killed by stalker (with 1 attack upgrade). With two attack upgrade then, Stalkers 4 shots marines even if they have 2 armor upgrades. Something like that.... In term of philosophy, Protoss represents Order and Evolution, their gateway units are now all light and robotics units are now all armored | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26498 Posts
On September 02 2023 09:56 xPrimuSx wrote: Pretty much this. However unlike what some people have said I don't think making chrono apply to units is a good idea. Still buffing Chrono would be good. In the Protoss design focus thread I posted a idea on that, reposted here Current CB is a flat 50% boost for 20 seconds at 50 energy. My idea would be something like Stage1: 20% boost -> Stage 2: 40% boost -> Stage 3: 80% boost, with chrono now lasting 15 seconds and costing 25 energy. To move from one stage to another you need to boost the target structure within 5-8 seconds of the last CB expiring. Time averaged current CB gets you 50% boost for 60s with minimal effort for 150 energy, while my change would get you 55% over the same time at 100 energy and a lot more effort. However, every boost after that would be dramatically better, provided you have the energy to keep chrono going and don't miss a chrono and get reset to Stage 1. Another way to buff Nexus would be to add a variable to Strategic Recall's cooldown based on how many Nexus you have. The more Nexus the shorter the cooldown (within reason). Probably balance it out so that at 3 base it's basically the same and afterwards it's better. Say baseline cooldown is 160 seconds and it is reduced by 15 seconds for each additional Nexus you have after the first one. At a standard 3 base that gets you back to current cooldown of 130 seconds, but at 7 bases (normal max on a map) it's a staggering 55 second cooldown and would help defend multiple bases and incentive picking off a Nexus or potentially building "macro" Nexuses. Now 55 seconds is kinda ridiculous so you'd probably want to add a ceiling to the effect, like it counts the 2nd Nexus up to the 5th Nexus (cooldown max of 100 seconds) Macro Nexuses has been the dream for forever for me haha You’re just swapping a gas expensive floating paperweight for a mineral only structure, if we’re just talking for recalls. A Chronoboost boost that’s tied into a lategame scenario I like. That way it’ll only help Protoss in lategame scenarios where they have some issues, but not augment big timing attacks via letting them get extra robo units or upgrades out any earlier. I also like a Chronoboost boost that is on some kind of timer and can’t be just used indiscriminately, like Zergs have to hit their inject timings right. Those scenarios where you trade pretty evenly only for Zergs and Terran to remax out faster than you could be mitigated with good targeted chrono on Robos and Stargates. But if you don’t do it optimally you’ll be in essentially the same position as you’d be in now. Yeah I like these ideas for sure. | ||
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AssyrianKing
Australia2116 Posts
:D On a more serious note, new Goliath looks really strong, but I always thought the whole point about mech play is positional play rather than Bio's multitasking play? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Instead of giving +5 vs Light to Hellions and +12 vs Light to Hellbats, it could be +2 damage (+3 vs Light) to Hellions and +4 damage (+8 vs Light) to Hellbats. The difference is that with the proposed Hellbat nerf, it'll do +3 less damage vs Light. With my proposed Blue Flame buff, the net result would be Hellions do +2 damage vs non-Light, and Hellbats do +4 damage vs non-Light but -3 damage vs Light. Hellions/Hellbats will be stronger in the midgame vs Roach/Ravager, Marauder, Tanks, buildings, etc. This wouldn't be imbalanced because Hellions have lots of counters and are still flimsy and supply inefficient, and Hellbats are immobile - Hellbat drops for probe harass might be slightly better, Hellbat drop micro ontop of armies would be a little more rewarding, otherwise the damage bonus would mainly be relevant when you attack into a Mech army, cus Hellbats can't chase. I'm proposing adjusting the Blue Flame damage because i feel it's likely the Cyclone will be reverted back to what it currently is, maybe (hopefully) with a slight buff. The hellion could be a decent skirmisher instead. Not the type that outright kills things, but can poke and threaten harass, and give your Tanks more space to move around and setup. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26498 Posts
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xPrimuSx
95 Posts
On September 02 2023 22:00 WombaT wrote: Macro Nexuses has been the dream for forever for me haha You’re just swapping a gas expensive floating paperweight for a mineral only structure, if we’re just talking for recalls. A Chronoboost boost that’s tied into a lategame scenario I like. That way it’ll only help Protoss in lategame scenarios where they have some issues, but not augment big timing attacks via letting them get extra robo units or upgrades out any earlier. I also like a Chronoboost boost that is on some kind of timer and can’t be just used indiscriminately, like Zergs have to hit their inject timings right. Those scenarios where you trade pretty evenly only for Zergs and Terran to remax out faster than you could be mitigated with good targeted chrono on Robos and Stargates. But if you don’t do it optimally you’ll be in essentially the same position as you’d be in now. Yeah I like these ideas for sure. Haha, yeah I've felt Protoss really lost out on macro that way seeing how the game developed and have wanted something done to the Nexus to make it more valuable as the number goes up. I wrote this long post about the strategic ways Protoss has the short end of the stick in the design focus thread from a few weeks back. Overall, tactically I feel Protoss is fine. They have good tools, could they be stronger? Sure, but to a very large extent what needs to be there is there. The bigger issue is on the strategic front, the things, big and small, that help you to use those tactics where they are lacking. On September 02 2023 10:26 bela.mervado wrote: i like the stacking chrono ideas. ( for my taste the simple flat up to 3 times stack seems to be the best, +50,+100,+150% speedups, independent 20s timers for each cast ) Honestly you really need to be careful buffing Protoss macro because of the risk of cheese and unstoppable timing attacks. At lower levels buffing chrono too much means every toss player just rushes out some units and has may more than their opponent can be expected to stop. Stacking that straight forward would likely end up being massively overpowered without rebalancing unit and upgrade build/research times across the board. Chrono used to give a much larger boost that was progressively turned down over time. As much as possible we should look at the changes that have happened in the past so we're not doing +/- 10 seconds on bunker build time | ||
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