On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
Then why were koreans in the teamhouse era miles above foreigners who were playing in 'superior conditions' and foreigners only catched up once they had the same practice conditions?
They were Miles above coz esport wasnt as established as in asia and they never had the same practice conditions
"teamhouse practice isn't superior"
-"then why did koreans dominate in the teamhouse era"
-"because they had superior practice conditions"
LMAO
Never said practice conditions were superior?
and they never had the same practice conditions
Unless you mean foreigners had superior practice conditions but that doesn't fit with the rest of the sentence
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
Not a chance, really. Recency bias is a thing.
It’s basically incomparable, a ton of extra knowledge and optimisation versus those figuring the game out
Parachute a good semi-pro from now back, or a low tier pro and they probably win a GSL no worries
Thing is, all their edge is knowledge, not raw skill. Next GSL that comes around all this time traveller knowledge is out there, to be absorbed by a bunch of full time progamers
So all it would do is accelerate the understanding of the game for next time round. And I’d certainly fancy an Mvp with knowledge from the future way more than I’d fancy a random GM from the future who’s only edge is having access to future knowledge
On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote: [quote] Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’
I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
It's kinda funny that we live in a world where most pros (including Koreans) say Serral is the BEST(I'm using best because this has nothing to do with a goat argument. We're just talking about pure talent and skill) player in the world, but some random forum user thinks he'd get knocked out in the Round of 32 of Code S.
To be fair, the argument being used against Maru has been he never does well outside of KR or in online tournament and people still saying that despite him making multiple Ro4/Final at those events. I know he still need to win a world title in the end and all, but he has been pretty great in the last 2-3 years of SC2, and its not like Serral ALWAYS does well neither. People just like to point out when Serral win a couple events and call him GOAT/ the best player in the world, but stay silent when he doesnt do well (bounced in DH EU by HM after his world title, lost in the group stage of Afreeca Cup last year, lost to Clem/Rogue in multiple events a couple years back...) and act like those things never happen.
Pull the data on the international tourneys that Serral and Maru have both participated since 2018. You'll see that Serral is WAY more consistent.
I wonder how people use the argument of balance in favor of Maru against Serral on the GOAT discussion, since 2018 and Serral's ascension, no Korean zerg has had the same consistency of Serral internationally or Maru, nationaly...
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
Well we have plenty of evidence that teamhouses in SC2, Lol or CSGO produce the best result while pretty much none that they don't, so it's hard to say it's the latter.
I also think we have tend to overdramatize the mythos of Korean teamhouses. I think it was easy to pass the detachment a lot of people in the foreign scene were feeling toward the Koreans and Korean centric-media as a manifestation of the players themself being faceless, jaded, overworked, machine-like etc... Rather than admitting we just didn't know them all that much (me included). So teamhouses turned into a sweat-shop hell, crushing everyone's personality and creativeness.
Was the pay bad for a lot of Kespa/ESF pro? Yeah, but the pay was/is bad for 90% of Starcraft players, and they at least had one.
Was the environment toxic with abusive power relations? There are certainly plenty of examples of it, so clearly there were some big problems, but we also have a lot of pro saying it was the best time of their life, some people made great friendships through it and there are many video/story of teahouse where they did various activity outside of SC.
Did they practice too much? Well, they practiced a lot in some teamhouse (although plenty of foreigners also played a shitload of Starcraft), but they also were there to become the best Starcraft player they could, which does entail plenty of sacrifice and risk if you don't try it. We can argue if, for example, trying to become an Olympian gymnast is really an healthy and worthwhile life, but there's certainly some merit in trying to live that dream and dedicating your youth to it.
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
It's kinda funny that we live in a world where most pros (including Koreans) say Serral is the BEST(I'm using best because this has nothing to do with a goat argument. We're just talking about pure talent and skill) player in the world, but some random forum user thinks he'd get knocked out in the Round of 32 of Code S.
To be fair, the argument being used against Maru has been he never does well outside of KR or in online tournament and people still saying that despite him making multiple Ro4/Final at those events. I know he still need to win a world title in the end and all, but he has been pretty great in the last 2-3 years of SC2, and its not like Serral ALWAYS does well neither. People just like to point out when Serral win a couple events and call him GOAT/ the best player in the world, but stay silent when he doesnt do well (bounced in DH EU by HM after his world title, lost in the group stage of Afreeca Cup last year, lost to Clem/Rogue in multiple events a couple years back...) and act like those things never happen.
Pull the data on the international tourneys that Serral and Maru have both participated since 2018. You'll see that Serral is WAY more consistent.
WESG 2018 - Maru wins, Serral 3rd Katowice 18 - tied top 4 GSL vs the World 18 - Maru top 8, Serral wins Blizzcon - Maru top 8, Serral wins Katowice 19 - Maru top 16, Serral top 8 WESG 19 - Maru 3rd, Serral 2nd GSL vs the World 19 - Maru top 16, Serral wins Blizzcon 19 - Maru top 8, Serral top 4 Katowice 2020 - Maru top 4, Serral top 4 DH summer 20 - Maru top 8, Serral win KoB 20 - Maru wins, Serral top 8 DH winter 20 - Serral wins, Maru top 16 TSL 6 - Maru 4th, Serral 2nd Katowice 2021 - Maru top 4, Serral top 12 Asus ROG 21 - Maru win, Serral top 8 DH winter 21 - Maru win, Serral top 8 KoB 21 - Maru win, Serral 2nd TSL8 - Maru top 12, Serral 2nd DH last chance 22 - Maru win, Serral top 12 Katowice 22 - Maru top 8, Serral win KoB 22 - Maru top 4, Serral 2nd TSL9 - Maru 2nd, Serral wins DH Atlanta 22 - tied top 4 Katowice 23 - Maru 2nd, Serral top 8 Pigsty 23 - Maru 2nd, Serral top 8 DH summer 23 - Maru top 12, Serral wins
I believe that's literally everything that has had both of them in it. Maru's average placement is 6th (5.8). Serral's average placement is 4th (4.2). Serral is noticeably more consistent in those events but I don't think that's anywhere near a big enough difference to makeup for Maru's 2013-2017 results and his dominance in his much harder home region.
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
To deny HOTS was the highest skill level the pro scene has ever displayed is pure unadulterated cope.
I don’t think Chai was being serious at all with that point
HoTS was undoubtedly a much more competitive era, more skilled though?
Don’t think so, although in a parallel reality where the scene remained in its prior structure I think we’d likely see that be even more skilled
Flash said something pretty similar on post Kespa BW, that in ways the skill is higher thru greater knowledge and people playing for additional years, but that the rate of improvement is likely slower than what it would have been.
Maru has basically the entire Terran package, obscene micro and macro and can play hyper aggressive or incredibly defensively in a way no Terran could of that time. Serral is similarly basically the complete Zerg player
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
To deny HOTS was the highest skill level the pro scene has ever displayed is pure unadulterated cope.
I don’t think Chai was being serious at all with that point
HoTS was undoubtedly a much more competitive era, more skilled though?
Don’t think so, although in a parallel reality where the scene remained in its prior structure I think we’d likely see that be even more skilled
Flash said something pretty similar on post Kespa BW, that in ways the skill is higher thru greater knowledge and people playing for additional years, but that the rate of improvement is likely slower than what it would have been.
Maru has basically the entire Terran package, obscene micro and macro and can play hyper aggressive or incredibly defensively in a way no Terran could of that time. Serral is similarly basically the complete Zerg player
Maru's and Serral's play right now is definitely among the best we've ever seen but the gap between them and the rest of the playing field has also grown quite large, and I'm not sure we can say the general playing field has gotten better. Someone like Dark for example was imo playing better and more solid 3-4 years ago.
Similar to other players like Inno, soO or Zest, who had noticably declined in their last years before military
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
To deny HOTS was the highest skill level the pro scene has ever displayed is pure unadulterated cope.
I don’t think Chai was being serious at all with that point
HoTS was undoubtedly a much more competitive era, more skilled though?
Don’t think so, although in a parallel reality where the scene remained in its prior structure I think we’d likely see that be even more skilled
Flash said something pretty similar on post Kespa BW, that in ways the skill is higher thru greater knowledge and people playing for additional years, but that the rate of improvement is likely slower than what it would have been.
Maru has basically the entire Terran package, obscene micro and macro and can play hyper aggressive or incredibly defensively in a way no Terran could of that time. Serral is similarly basically the complete Zerg player
I do think both Maru and Serral on their A-game are close to perfection at least if you consider human capability. At a certain point it becomes impossible for human action to improve mechanically. You can always have a slightly more perfect game but if I remember some of the ASUS ROG games of Maru he dominated fights that were impossible to win without the opponent making crucial mistakes.
Knowledge can always improve and decisions are key with incomplete information but in terms of raw mechanical skill I dont see an improvement on Maru/Serral. Improvement only in the aspect of consistency where Serral IMO outshines Maru. He does have better and worse performance as well but when he loses he rarely loses disappointingly while any Maru fan can attest to how frustrating it can be to be Maru fan.
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
To deny HOTS was the highest skill level the pro scene has ever displayed is pure unadulterated cope.
I don’t think Chai was being serious at all with that point
HoTS was undoubtedly a much more competitive era, more skilled though?
Don’t think so, although in a parallel reality where the scene remained in its prior structure I think we’d likely see that be even more skilled
Flash said something pretty similar on post Kespa BW, that in ways the skill is higher thru greater knowledge and people playing for additional years, but that the rate of improvement is likely slower than what it would have been.
Maru has basically the entire Terran package, obscene micro and macro and can play hyper aggressive or incredibly defensively in a way no Terran could of that time. Serral is similarly basically the complete Zerg player
Maru's and Serral's play right now is definitely among the best we've ever seen but the gap between them and the rest of the playing field has also grown quite large, and I'm not sure we can say the general playing field has gotten better. Someone like Dark for example was imo playing better and more solid 3-4 years ago.
Similar to other players like Inno, soO or Zest, who had noticably declined in their last years before military
Therein comes the depth, which is definitely more shallow at the tip top end for sure.
The Korean scene lost a capacity to blood new talent so you’re relying on veterans to keep motivation for years, and at current stage not just that but come back from military service and still have that drive. Dark’s still bloody good, and IMO consistently underrated in GOAT rankings but you can even see it with him, and he’s still motivated enough to be excellent. Inno, Zest you could visibly see them play worse and worse
Conversely I think the foreign scene did find a model that actually worked and is clearly better than it used to be.
It’s just also clearly not better enough to fill the talent void that is now versus peak Kespa teams + the top esF guys like Taeja that we used to have
Claims like "A diamond player today would stomp pro players of the past" are exactly the kind of thing that is just so wrong in so many levels I can't understand how people come to that conclussion.
I'm a diamond player. I suck. I play like 5-6 hours a week. I sometimes forget to research warpgate, stim and ling speed. I fall behind in my build all the time, I miss drops, I a click. I'm a noob.
In HotS I was a gold lvl player. Now I'm Diamond, sometimes Diamond 3, sometimes 2, sometimes 1. But I suck. I would never beat Mvp, or Life or even Fruitdealer.
People say that people in team houses just played 12 hours a day. That's not the case. They had coaches, sometimes multiples. They checked replays, the practiced spefici strats, they practiced specific strats vs specific players. They practiced how to prepare for a "best of" series of multiple games and how to approach them. It wasn't just mindless grinding of games.
And again, the only reason I can think of why people say pros in the past were bad is because they don't understand that the game hadn't been figured out yet, or some thing simply weren't possible. But that doesn't mean they were bad.
Again, things like creep spread. Queens used to suck, there was no reason to make multiple of them, then they buffed them so people started making more, that lead to better creep spread, which also was later buffed. Marine micro was possible, just not discovered, until MKP started doing it. Siege tanks literally doubled in damage from HotS to LotV, that changed their viability a lot. Maps became bigger and better designed, favoring macro instead of shitty cheeses, which were also nerfed (like 4 gate). Remember that the blink all ins in HotS were a great display of micro. Before that it's not that pros lacked the micro, it's that they hadn't discovered that.
There are definitely things that became harder, particularly with lotv making the game faster, or the introduction of things like widow mines that could wipe armies and mineral lines if you didn't pay attention. At the same time other things became easier, like defending (creep spread, overlord speed and scouts, shield batteries and mothership core).
I agree with the theory that if a scene continues to develop uninterrupted, then yeah the level of play becomes higher and higher. But that didn't happened with sc2. Teams left, sponsors left, tournaments dissappeared. In the HotS and WoL era we had basically tournaments every weekend. There were so many high level competitions it even became a problem and tournament organizers had to make a deal between themselves to not have tournaments at the same time. The level of competition went down, the practice structures went down, you can definitely become worse over time at something. Even pros will tell you that you can play 1000 hours but if you aren't practicing with a purpose the correct stuff you will not improve. this is the same, but in a macro scale. The scene imploded. Pros still have a lot of knowledge they aquired over the years on how to practice, but do they still have the discipline? The support structure around them? No.
On July 23 2023 06:08 [Phantom] wrote: Claims like "A diamond player today would stomp pro players of the past" are exactly the kind of thing that is just so wrong in so many levels I can't understand how people come to that conclussion.
I'm a diamond player. I suck. I play like 5-6 hours a week. I sometimes forget to research warpgate, stim and ling speed. I fall behind in my build all the time, I miss drops, I a click. I'm a noob.
In HotS I was a gold lvl player. Now I'm Diamond, sometimes Diamond 3, sometimes 2, sometimes 1. But I suck. I would never beat Mvp, or Life or even Fruitdealer.
People say that people in team houses just played 12 hours a day. That's not the case. They had coaches, sometimes multiples. They checked replays, the practiced spefici strats, they practiced specific strats vs specific players. They practiced how to prepare for a "best of" series of multiple games and how to approach them. It wasn't just mindless grinding of games.
And again, the only reason I can think of why people say pros in the past were bad is because they don't understand that the game hadn't been figured out yet, or some thing simply weren't possible. But that doesn't mean they were bad.
Again, things like creep spread. Queens used to suck, there was no reason to make multiple of them, then they buffed them so people started making more, that lead to better creep spread, which also was later buffed. Marine micro was possible, just not discovered, until MKP started doing it. Siege tanks literally doubled in damage from HotS to LotV, that changed their viability a lot. Maps became bigger and better designed, favoring macro instead of shitty cheeses, which were also nerfed (like 4 gate). Remember that the blink all ins in HotS were a great display of micro. Before that it's not that pros lacked the micro, it's that they hadn't discovered that.
There are definitely things that became harder, particularly with lotv making the game faster, or the introduction of things like widow mines that could wipe armies and mineral lines if you didn't pay attention. At the same time other things became easier, like defending (creep spread, overlord speed and scouts, shield batteries and mothership core).
I agree with the theory that if a scene continues to develop uninterrupted, then yeah the level of play becomes higher and higher. But that didn't happened with sc2. Teams left, sponsors left, tournaments dissappeared. In the HotS and WoL era we had basically tournaments every weekend. There were so many high level competitions it even became a problem and tournament organizers had to make a deal between themselves to not have tournaments at the same time. The level of competition went down, the practice structures went down, you can definitely become worse over time at something. Even pros will tell you that you can play 1000 hours but if you aren't practicing with a purpose the correct stuff you will not improve. this is the same, but in a macro scale. The scene imploded. Pros still have a lot of knowledge they aquired over the years on how to practice, but do they still have the discipline? The support structure around them? No.
It’s interesting you mention creep spread because that’s probably one area foreigners sharing knowledge and optimising things had them ahead of the curve. Maybe Scarlett as an overall player didn’t hit those heights but she always had obscene creep spread and you see that with a Serral or a Reynor
We have to remember that a lot of knowledge stayed in-house at the real peak of the Kespa era, compared to a much more open foreign scene
Without knowing what went on within certain walls that system seemed to produce great talent but have diminishing returns as well. Most B teamers tend to remain B-teamers for example. If the system was that great you’d see more upward promotion
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
Yeah sorry but you're wrong. Mechanically the talent pool was deeper and more solid during KESPA era. The meta wasn't the same, but the players played their meta to perfection better.
I don't think KESPA nor most of the teams were good entities, but the players were better in that era.
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
I watched those GSLs, from FruitDealer to basically every GSL in WoL. Randoms GM of today are bad (not the pros, but like top 50 to top 200 GM EU). WoL is not the same game and they don’t know nor remember WoL very well so they would have no knowledge and would probably lose to creative / smart players of back then. Mechanics wise it’s not the same game, you don’t have 12 workers start with A LOT of QoL changes that make macro easier, so those random GM would not even have better mechanics than random KR. They might get a top 8, but it’s highly unlikely they would do better.
Again, I am not talking about current pros. But the gap between pros and lower tier players is gigantic. For example, try to watch the lower level tournaments with terrans such as Kas, BabyMarine, etc. And notice the huge difference with the top EU terrans. Then now realize that top 50 to top 200 EU GM players are even worse than the likes of Kas and BabyMarine.
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
I like how your last sentence is much more fitting towards Maru than Serral... And you still haven't explained how all these elite koreans, the literal top of the top, could lose to Serral. Like...all of them. Or is the GSL Top 8 of '18 also trash that just got lucky qualifying?
They both stayed home. One got to battle foreign scrubs who would have done just as well with their monitors off, the other had to face the GSL gauntlet.
I wonder who had to travel further out of their time zone for these weekend events? Katowice has a massive time difference to serrals normal time zone right? I mean a whole hour difference is crazy. But your right in one aspect he did do well after farming the easiest WCS points available and he did secure the global finals against some great players. I do wonder how many points he would have been farmed for though if he participated in the GSL though. We will never know because he "never felt the need to prove himself in KR" read as I knew I'd lose so I didn't go.
Damn, I missed all those DreamHacks in '18 that got played out in Finland...btw, flight times from South Korea and Finland to California (Blizzcon) are both around 11h...
But quick question: Did Serrals win '18 destroy your enjoyment of SC2 so much that you left Liquipedia for two years?
Ohhh we're selecting the one foreign event that took him out of his time zone for a weekend tournament and pretending it was the norm? Not the short flight he has from most tournaments? He literally could have flown home and slept in his bed on a daily basis.
Yes though you are right the blizzcon events were a struggle for both players as I noted perviously. I'm glad you decided to make that point again for me. Remind me who farmed the easier WCS points though to seed into that tournament?
But an even quicker question: Does my pointing out that serral had home "international" events to attend and an easy AF WCS point farming system in place tilt you so much that you looked at my post history?
BTW I'm not even so invested in SC2, just like it is funny yall want to make someone who farmed free WCS points and played in his backyard is the GOAT. Perhaps we will have the Harlem Globetrotters play in middle school basketball leagues across the world and one of them can become the goat of basketball?
On July 23 2023 01:39 Curufinwe Feanor wrote: I wonder how people use the argument of balance in favor of Maru against Serral on the GOAT discussion, since 2018 and Serral's ascension, no Korean zerg has had the same consistency of Serral internationally or Maru, nationaly...
Please someone enlighten me.
Don’t overthink it
It’s the Maru fanboy / Serral haters agenda
Serral surpassed Maru in 2019 in terms of GOAT talks
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
I watched those GSLs, from FruitDealer to basically every GSL in WoL. Randoms GM of today are bad (not the pros, but like top 50 to top 200 GM EU). WoL is not the same game and they don’t know nor remember WoL very well so they would have no knowledge and would probably lose to creative / smart players of back then. Mechanics wise it’s not the same game, you don’t have 12 workers start with A LOT of QoL changes that make macro easier, so those random GM would not even have better mechanics than random KR. They might get a top 8, but it’s highly unlikely they would do better.
Again, I am not talking about current pros. But the gap between pros and lower tier players is gigantic. For example, try to watch the lower level tournaments with terrans such as Kas, BabyMarine, etc. And notice the huge difference with the top EU terrans. Then now realize that top 50 to top 200 EU GM players are even worse than the likes of Kas and BabyMarine.
It’s been 13 years or w/e, which is a long time
Again to stress whichever person we send back in time, naked, Arnie style will get one tournament of their excess knowledge to crack, before their only advantage in knowledge is revealed
Considering we skip the first few GSL/GSL equivalents so the map pool gets slightly less trash, something vaguely sensible
Having a full stable, mapped out build from a slightly more mature era will give you a huge edge. Like a gigantic one until your trick is figured out
It took Toss for example a long time to even use warp prisms much (thanks Liquid HerO) in ANY capacity never mind using them to shield Templars from EMPs and other such funkiness
Plus modern(ish) minor optimisations like rapid fire for warpins and stuff
Remember Creator’s whole initial ascent was on the back of a sick double forge build PvT style. I should remember as it’s the only build I’ve ever stolen and nailed from 80/90 supply on
Now take that WoL era build and fast forward it a year or two in the meta with our time traveller, mix in some Liquid HerO prisms and zealots running everywhere and that’s way beyond the development of early WoL. Also crazy fucking tanky harass zealots as you could hit 2/2 as a T’s 1/0 was live
This isn’t to denigrate people from that era, it’s just 13 years of accumulated knowledge goes a long, long way.
Indeed in my GOAT considerations I frequently rate innovators and people who first figured stuff out for this very reason
On July 23 2023 01:39 Curufinwe Feanor wrote: I wonder how people use the argument of balance in favor of Maru against Serral on the GOAT discussion, since 2018 and Serral's ascension, no Korean zerg has had the same consistency of Serral internationally or Maru, nationaly...
Please someone enlighten me.
Don’t overthink it
It’s the Maru fanboy / Serral haters agenda
Serral surpassed Maru in 2019 in terms of GOAT talks
EPT
