On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote: Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game.
Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’
I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
I like how your last sentence is much more fitting towards Maru than Serral... And you still haven't explained how all these elite koreans, the literal top of the top, could lose to Serral. Like...all of them. Or is the GSL Top 8 of '18 also trash that just got lucky qualifying?
On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote: Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game.
Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’
I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
I like how your last sentence is much more fitting towards Maru than Serral... And you still haven't explained how all these elite koreans, the literal top of the top, could lose to Serral. Like...all of them. Or is the GSL Top 8 of '18 also trash that just got lucky qualifying?
They both stayed home. One got to battle foreign scrubs who would have done just as well with their monitors off, the other had to face the GSL gauntlet.
I wonder who had to travel further out of their time zone for these weekend events? Katowice has a massive time difference to serrals normal time zone right? I mean a whole hour difference is crazy. But your right in one aspect he did do well after farming the easiest WCS points available and he did secure the global finals against some great players. I do wonder how many points he would have been farmed for though if he participated in the GSL though. We will never know because he "never felt the need to prove himself in KR" read as I knew I'd lose so I didn't go.
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
Then why were koreans in the teamhouse era miles above foreigners who were playing in 'superior conditions' and foreigners only catched up once they had the same practice conditions?
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
Then why were koreans in the teamhouse era miles above foreigners who were playing in 'superior conditions' and foreigners only catched up once they had the same practice conditions?
To be fair, korean scene was way ahead of the rest of the world. No surprise that it took some time for others to catch up. Team house -system is just part of the picture.
On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote: [quote] Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’
I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
I like how your last sentence is much more fitting towards Maru than Serral... And you still haven't explained how all these elite koreans, the literal top of the top, could lose to Serral. Like...all of them. Or is the GSL Top 8 of '18 also trash that just got lucky qualifying?
They both stayed home. One got to battle foreign scrubs who would have done just as well with their monitors off, the other had to face the GSL gauntlet.
I wonder who had to travel further out of their time zone for these weekend events? Katowice has a massive time difference to serrals normal time zone right? I mean a whole hour difference is crazy. But your right in one aspect he did do well after farming the easiest WCS points available and he did secure the global finals against some great players. I do wonder how many points he would have been farmed for though if he participated in the GSL though. We will never know because he "never felt the need to prove himself in KR" read as I knew I'd lose so I didn't go.
Damn, I missed all those DreamHacks in '18 that got played out in Finland...btw, flight times from South Korea and Finland to California (Blizzcon) are both around 11h...
But quick question: Did Serrals win '18 destroy your enjoyment of SC2 so much that you left Liquipedia for two years?
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote: [quote] Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’
I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
I like how your last sentence is much more fitting towards Maru than Serral... And you still haven't explained how all these elite koreans, the literal top of the top, could lose to Serral. Like...all of them. Or is the GSL Top 8 of '18 also trash that just got lucky qualifying?
They both stayed home. One got to battle foreign scrubs who would have done just as well with their monitors off, the other had to face the GSL gauntlet.
I wonder who had to travel further out of their time zone for these weekend events? Katowice has a massive time difference to serrals normal time zone right? I mean a whole hour difference is crazy. But your right in one aspect he did do well after farming the easiest WCS points available and he did secure the global finals against some great players. I do wonder how many points he would have been farmed for though if he participated in the GSL though. We will never know because he "never felt the need to prove himself in KR" read as I knew I'd lose so I didn't go.
You make a lot of valid points, that's for certain.
On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote: Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game.
Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’
I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
You are delusional. I would want to put it more nicely but I simply cant. There is no putting it nicely. Serral is favored to win a bo7 against anyone in the world. Will he do that 100% of the time? No. Will he win it way above 50% of the time? Yes.
On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote: [quote] Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’
I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
I like how your last sentence is much more fitting towards Maru than Serral... And you still haven't explained how all these elite koreans, the literal top of the top, could lose to Serral. Like...all of them. Or is the GSL Top 8 of '18 also trash that just got lucky qualifying?
They both stayed home. One got to battle foreign scrubs who would have done just as well with their monitors off, the other had to face the GSL gauntlet.
I wonder who had to travel further out of their time zone for these weekend events? Katowice has a massive time difference to serrals normal time zone right? I mean a whole hour difference is crazy. But your right in one aspect he did do well after farming the easiest WCS points available and he did secure the global finals against some great players. I do wonder how many points he would have been farmed for though if he participated in the GSL though. We will never know because he "never felt the need to prove himself in KR" read as I knew I'd lose so I didn't go.
"Never felt the need to prove himself in KR", dosen't sound at all like he though he would lose, you can say anything you want about Serral but the man never think he's going to lose a game of Starcraft.
I think sometime we forget SC2 is a job and not everyone give a shit about "legacy". Serral probably didn't want to go live in Korea because he didn't want to go live in Korea. He would not really have won anymore money in KR than in Europe considering the travel and living expense and would have been away from home for a while.
He's not the first one to chose comfort over a buisness trip. Maru and Dark have shutdown a dozen HSC invite because they can't be bothered to travel, to the point where Take dosen't even reach out to them now.
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
Then why were koreans in the teamhouse era miles above foreigners who were playing in 'superior conditions' and foreigners only catched up once they had the same practice conditions?
They were Miles above coz esport wasnt as established as in asia and they never had the same practice conditions
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
Then why were koreans in the teamhouse era miles above foreigners who were playing in 'superior conditions' and foreigners only catched up once they had the same practice conditions?
They were Miles above coz esport wasnt as established as in asia and they never had the same practice conditions
"teamhouse practice isn't superior"
-"then why did koreans dominate in the teamhouse era"
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
They were amazing for increasing skill level.
But they were awful in everything else.
Non stop playing in Bad conditions isnt good for increasing the skill level
Then why were koreans in the teamhouse era miles above foreigners who were playing in 'superior conditions' and foreigners only catched up once they had the same practice conditions?
They were Miles above coz esport wasnt as established as in asia and they never had the same practice conditions
"teamhouse practice isn't superior"
-"then why did koreans dominate in the teamhouse era"
EPT
