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On July 21 2023 03:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess. Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that. I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you.
Skill level wasn't at the highest when Mvp was the best but competition level was. There were hundreds of people trying to be professional SC2 players playing 40+ hours/week. The skill level might be higher now but the competition level is so low (so few fulltime pros) that it's debatable when winning is more impressive. Considering how much more Mvp has won than Reynor that's barely even relevant though. No amount of skill level difference overcomes that trophy discrepancy. Trophies are the most important thing and Reynor trophy list isn't anywhere near Mvp, Inno, or even Zest.
Zest has won a Katowice, 2 GSL a Kespa cup, super tournament, and other small stuff. Reynor's only big win is an online Katowice. Then he's won some mid tier stuff comparable to a super tournament or Kespa cup. Comparing those 2 players in overall achievement is insulting and pure bias. You can say Reynor was better skill wise in 2020-2023 but saying he's achieved more over his entire SC2 career is just being blind.
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France13018 Posts
On July 21 2023 03:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess. Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that. I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you.
The skill level hasn’t improved much across the extensions. It’s wildly different games that reward different skill sets (see how sOs who was great at HotS couldn’t do much in LotV).
INnoVation lacks the world championships but barely any terrans won world championships so it’s hard to take that against him, it’s just how balance happened to be
The clear top 2 is Rogue and Maru, then it’s INno, then it’s up for debate between Zest / mvp / Life / Serral depending on your criterion
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Northern Ireland27380 Posts
On July 21 2023 03:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess. Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that. I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you.
This is the thing with a strategy game, come up with a great strategy, if someone with better execution copies it they’ll be better than you.
Innovators IMO are a little underrated, i weight them pretty highly.
Mvp basically invented proper macro Terran strategically. And at his time was also the best Terran mechanically as well
Then he wasn’t.
But to me greatness isn’t as simple as ‘best’, it’s something much more intangible. It’s breaking barriers, it’s indomitable will, it’s a heroic underdog story. Serral has it in spades, he didn’t just break the ‘can compete with the best Koreans’ barrier that Neeb and to an extent Stephano pushed through, he demolished it
Injury crippled Mvp still ran a crazy GSL gauntlet and still ended up close to taking out Life playing mech as his body couldn’t handle playing bio against such a quality component.
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On July 21 2023 04:45 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 03:53 Balnazza wrote:On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess. Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that. I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you. The skill level hasn’t improved much across the extensions. It’s wildly different games that reward different skill sets (see how sOs who was great at HotS couldn’t do much in LotV). INnoVation lacks the world championships but barely any terrans won world championships so it’s hard to take that against him, it’s just how balance happened to be The clear top 2 is Rogue and Maru, then it’s INno, then it’s up for debate between Zest / mvp / Life / Serral depending on your criterion
How can someone be this wrong
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Northern Ireland27380 Posts
On July 21 2023 04:45 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 03:53 Balnazza wrote:On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess. Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that. I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you. The skill level hasn’t improved much across the extensions. It’s wildly different games that reward different skill sets (see how sOs who was great at HotS couldn’t do much in LotV). INnoVation lacks the world championships but barely any terrans won world championships so it’s hard to take that against him, it’s just how balance happened to be The clear top 2 is Rogue and Maru, then it’s INno, then it’s up for debate between Zest / mvp / Life / Serral depending on your criterion
Nah, Inno when he first burst onto the scene was an unbelievable monster of macro and mechanics
When the wider scene caught up on those metrics he fell off a cliff. I’d still consider breakout Inno, relative to the scene one of the scariest players we’ve ever seen
Rogue had a similar resume to sOs and won a bunch of Code S titles when both the scene depth had dropped and Zerg was super strong
Serral has better win rates across the board, has 2 world titles, has a ton of international titles the same players have competed in, Has earned the most money. Has the best vKorean win rate ever, has various Aligulac peak records.
It’s like when Taeja played but even more extreme because foreigner. Taeja would generally take multiple international tournies a year vs the exact same opposition, often who weren’t winning anything but it didn’t count for some reason because it wasn’t Code
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On July 21 2023 04:45 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 03:53 Balnazza wrote:On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess. Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that. I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you. The skill level hasn’t improved much across the extensions. It’s wildly different games that reward different skill sets (see how sOs who was great at HotS couldn’t do much in LotV). INnoVation lacks the world championships but barely any terrans won world championships so it’s hard to take that against him, it’s just how balance happened to be The clear top 2 is Rogue and Maru, then it’s INno, then it’s up for debate between Zest / mvp / Life / Serral depending on your criterion
I think there's some truth to what you're saying. If you forced a modern player known for their good micro/multitasking like Clem to play WoL, they would not be able to play near as fast because many core units are slower, the game progresses slower, etc. So yes, some portion of the "skill" we see today is enabled by LoTV being more fast paced.
But at the same time there's some micro that has stayed similar over time, and if you compare things like baiting widow mines, burrowing and reburrowing, creep respreading, etc, there is a marked difference between late HOTS and today. Players have had more time to practice since then so I wouldn't hold it against older pros, but the skill level is pretty obviously higher.
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France13018 Posts
On July 21 2023 04:57 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 04:45 Poopi wrote:On July 21 2023 03:53 Balnazza wrote:On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess. Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that. I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you. The skill level hasn’t improved much across the extensions. It’s wildly different games that reward different skill sets (see how sOs who was great at HotS couldn’t do much in LotV). INnoVation lacks the world championships but barely any terrans won world championships so it’s hard to take that against him, it’s just how balance happened to be The clear top 2 is Rogue and Maru, then it’s INno, then it’s up for debate between Zest / mvp / Life / Serral depending on your criterion How can someone be this wrong
About what exactly?
Maru and Rogue being top 2 is kinda obvious, with INno being too 3 behind them also obvious
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On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player?
Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership.
He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
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France13018 Posts
On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
Skill wise he is probably the best zerg ever, and he won sufficiently to be in the top 10
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Northern Ireland27380 Posts
On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20.
What’s to dissect?
Players have had plenty of time
He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily
He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins.
Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
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On July 21 2023 06:43 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. Skill wise he is probably the best zerg ever, and he won sufficiently to be in the top 10
It's pretty hard to not put him in top five. You would have to really stretch the "2012-2016 was peak sc2 competition" argument to it's absolute extreme
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On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind.
He is one of the Serral hater / Maru fanboy
Serral has already been the undisputed general consensus goat for years now. Most people have Dark and Rogue comfortably ahead of Maru as well. We can start taking Maru seriously once he wins a world championship in the meantime he can keep winning GSL in the B league
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On July 21 2023 08:09 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind. He is one of the Serral hater / Maru fanboy Serral has already been the undisputed general consensus goat for years now. Most people have Dark and Rogue comfortably ahead of Maru as well. We can start taking Maru seriously once he wins a world championship in the meantime he can keep winning GSL in the B league
It's hard not to put reynor ahead of him as well
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now.
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
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On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.)
Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
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On July 21 2023 09:14 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full. In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.) Arguing must be fun when you just make things up.
2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals.
2022 again look who was there.
Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited?
I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
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On July 21 2023 09:28 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 09:14 dysenterymd wrote:On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full. In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.) Arguing must be fun when you just make things up. 2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited? I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
2018 - in what world is Dark and Rogue an easy bracket lmao, sure he didn't face Maru but I don't think sOs and not seeding is to blame for that
2022 - look at who was there? Which other player in the world at the time would have put up near the challenge of those 4 players
No serious person would dispute that EU is easier to qualify from. The idea that Serral would fail to qualify at all from Korea is ludicrous though (especially in the EPT era where almost every active Korean gets to play in world championships.) The claim I was responding to was that Serral's seeding gives him super easy brackets. Yes, I did only mention two tournaments, but they are the most important tournaments he won and there are many more tough brackets that Serral went though in international competitions. If you'd really like we can go through all Serral's tournament wins though, yes in some he got easy brackets (often because more threatening players fell flat at earlier rounds) but he's also beaten all the best players in the world many times.
Is Serral the goat? Probably not, I still think that's Rogue, but putting him any lower than top 5 or top 3 is silly.
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United States1961 Posts
This site is gonna be popping off like it's 2015 come this time next month :O
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On July 21 2023 09:28 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 09:14 dysenterymd wrote:On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full. In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.) Arguing must be fun when you just make things up. 2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited? I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Honestly, it's so hard to take you seriously that I'm half-convinced you're trolling. Don't really care who you think is GOAT and the banter is interesting (when people make real arguments), but pretending like the guy with the best win rates, most money, and best scouting/defensive/macro/late-game play did it through some fluke is laughable.
Whether you like it or not, a plurality of people seem to think Serral is the GOAT or top 1/2. I'm not even sure I'd agree, but taking apart Serral's case beyond him not competing in GSL (which, while I would have loved to see for the spectacle, probably makes 0 sense for him) is just shouting into the wind.
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Northern Ireland27380 Posts
On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
At this stage the GSL needs Serral as much as he needs it prestige wise
He still won a ton of fully open qualification international tournaments
Still won the two GSL vS the Worlds
Still has absurd win rates in all matchups so ‘he hasn’t done it in GSL’ feels a huge stretch
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EPT
