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On July 23 2023 21:47 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 21:40 Durnuu wrote:On July 23 2023 21:03 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2023 20:51 Poopi wrote:On July 23 2023 20:39 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote:
And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament  and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years. the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then there was no huge patch that suddenly brought about "patchzergs" I wonder why they were called patchzergs then because ghosts got nerfed?
Sounds like there was a patch then, doesn't it?
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Northern Ireland24410 Posts
On July 23 2023 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 20:40 WombaT wrote:![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/YouveComeALongWayBaby2.jpg) I think Fatboy Slim’s seminal record is suitably titled here, it’s not disparaging the players of that time, plenty who grew into great players to look at just how far off general understanding of most things in the game was back then. Same would be true of BW, send a top amateur back far enough and they’ll wreck face. RTS more than most genres is one of knowledge and skill, and the collective knowledge pool just builds and builds and is assimilated through the years If there’s a skill gap between peak HoTS and now, and I think there’s good arguments in either direction, there’s a chasm between now and early WoL. It’s absolutely visible the second you watch a game, whereas what may exist between HoTs and now is more subtle and requires more deliberately. I mean San (Man) Zenith blocked his bloomin Nexus with his forge but he turned out to be decent, but it’s the kind of blunder you saw with semi-regularity in those times. MKP may indeed have been consistently brainless but he was consistently placing and was SC2’s first real Kong. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say our time traveller decent GM can take earlier GSLs. Come later in WoL, I don’t think they do. Too many players with too much talent started to understand the game. It started to shape into something more recnognisibly modern, eroding that knowledge advantage. I don’t think a decent GM can hang with an Mvp, or a Life, guys like Parting and Taeja were monsters who looked recognisably modern. Maybe at a stretch in terms of basic mechanics, but when you combo that with tactical decision-making on the fly. That’s what separates top pros from the good, good from the mediocre and them from good amateurs. While I agree with the knowledge building in general, it's also worth noting that the game has changed so much that a lot of the knowledge players have earned wouldn't be applicable in earlier versions of the game. In early WoL, sure, you would have a massive knowledge gap in terms of basic unit interactions and micro (i.e. splitting vs Banes) but if a player from today would travel to like mid-2012 or later, I don't think he would be able to contribute much in terms of knowledge. Probably it would be the other way, that the time traveller would be forced to re-learn the game
Yeah, kinda what I meant by ‘Come later in WoL, I don’t think they do. Too many players with too much talent started to understand the game. It started to shape into something more recnognisibly modern, eroding that knowledge advantages.’ but yeah also what you said
Builds aside, maps aside. In terms of general fundamental stuff the game went from blank slate to the general rudiments being fleshed out in that 2010-2012 kinda period, as you’d generally expect from a new RTS the period of biggest development will almost invariably be in that period.
Which I think is the only place you could send our hypothetical time traveller. Once your Lifes, Taejas arise and subsequent Kespa invasion happen, playing a pretty recognisable style of SC2, think there’s basically no chance whatsoever
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Northern Ireland24410 Posts
On July 23 2023 21:51 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 21:47 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2023 21:40 Durnuu wrote:On July 23 2023 21:03 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2023 20:51 Poopi wrote:On July 23 2023 20:39 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote:
And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years. the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then there was no huge patch that suddenly brought about "patchzergs" I wonder why they were called patchzergs then because ghosts got nerfed? Sounds like there was a patch then, doesn't it?
The patch that precipitated ye olde ‘Patchzerg’ era was the Queen buffs.
Zergs had already kinda figured out that Infestors were good, Broods were good and the combo was pretty damn sexy
That patch once it settled and the hive mind got to work let them rely on pretty light defences, sometimes just pure Queen ling early and bank gas to tech to BL/Infestor way earlier than was safe and viable before. If memory serves Stephano’s understanding of this was a bit ahead of the curve and saw him bringing it to Korea for a bit
Also as people were by default building auxiliary Queens as they were too good to skip, creep spread started getting pretty crazy too as players started making use of their non-inject Queens to do this
My memory may be a bit off here though so people are free to correct me.
It does neatly illustrate the knock-on effects even one change can have.
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On July 23 2023 22:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2023 21:51 Durnuu wrote:On July 23 2023 21:47 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2023 21:40 Durnuu wrote:On July 23 2023 21:03 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2023 20:51 Poopi wrote:On July 23 2023 20:39 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote:
And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years. the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then there was no huge patch that suddenly brought about "patchzergs" I wonder why they were called patchzergs then because ghosts got nerfed? Sounds like there was a patch then, doesn't it? The patch that precipitated ye olde ‘Patchzerg’ era was the Queen buffs. Zergs had already kinda figured out that Infestors were good, Broods were good and the combo was pretty damn sexy That patch once it settled and the hive mind got to work let them rely on pretty light defences, sometimes just pure Queen ling early and bank gas to tech to BL/Infestor way earlier than was safe and viable before. If memory serves Stephano’s understanding of this was a bit ahead of the curve and saw him bringing it to Korea for a bit Also as people were by default building auxiliary Queens as they were too good to skip, creep spread started getting pretty crazy too as players started making use of their non-inject Queens to do this My memory may be a bit off here though so people are free to correct me. It does neatly illustrate the knock-on effects even one change can have.
I know all this, but the guy literally said there was no patch that brought patchzergs which is just silly. Unless he meant that there were no direct infestor buffs.
Zergs back then knew for a while infestors were strong, but they couldn't get there reliably until queens got buffed is all (and the maps changed a bit and got more macro/defensive over time as well). Him implying it's a lack of knowledge from the zergs that gave us BL/infestors so "late" in WoL's lifespan and not the queen buff is stupid.
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ex bw progamers who played sc2 in 2010 had far better mechanics than current masters/low gm players.
the game was a lot harder to play back then (but still a lot easier than bw.)
No all-army, No worker indication, No hotkey stealing, and im sure im missing quite a few things.
Gameunderstanding and knowledge wise, a present day GM player would be miles ahead, but mechanics wise, I guess most of the ex pros from 2010 would be far better than your average low gm.
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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On July 24 2023 19:09 freakzstrop wrote:
I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT...
Impossible. Because neither Dark or Solar have won as many championships as Serrals has (in tourney they participated together), and neither of them have the record in head to head against all the top koreans, which is: Beat ALL OF THEM more than they beat you.
Not comparable.
And while you were, dreamingly
writing this folly
Serral went and, casually
took another trophy
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On July 25 2023 00:00 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2023 19:09 freakzstrop wrote:
I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT...
Impossible. Because neither Dark or Solar have won as many championships as Serrals has (in tourney they participated together), and neither of them have the record in head to head against all the top koreans, which is: Beat ALL OF THEM more than they beat you. Not comparable. And while you were, dreamingly writing this folly Serral went and, casually took another trophy
Please, this thread is bad enough already without attempted poetry.
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Serral is without a doubt one of the most, maybe THE MOST, skilled players this game has seen. Some trolls pretending that he'd just lose in the qualifiers or whatever (especially now, lol) is just bait, don't feed this nonsense.
At the same time i was quite disappointed when he first said he has no interest to compete in gsl, like it or not, but korea is the mekka of starcraft, starleagues like the gsl were for most of starcraft's history the most prestigious tournaments due to the competitive level being the highest. This isn't the case any longer, as the korean scene is just a shadow of its former self (maybe it wasn't the case anymore when he first said it, arguable i guess), but it would have been very exciting to see him compete in 2018 or so, add that to his resume in some form.
I never fully understood how the timeframe was too much for him, but hey ever person is different and i guess he's not comfortable outside his typical environment for 2 months, so be it.
As for the goat debate, i personally have a very difficult time to look at the past few years and think that they can be as significant as when sc2 was at its peak from a competitive level, during the kespa days. It just doesn't make sense to me, it would be like if football suddenly didn't get new players challenging for the top, there was no bigger club support anymore with coaches and professional analysis, etc, and the old guard only got older while many superstars retired. Such a scene imo cannot be impactful enough to crown a goat when the environment just is so much lesser than before, it doesn't add up in my mind, no matter how skilled the best players are.
Now ofc this works the most against someone like serral who just appeared too late in sc2's life cycle (though not only him, rogue who also gets thrown in a lot certainly has the same problem), but i think it is almost inarguable that this has to be an element to consider, the respective competitive level, NOT skill level, competitive level. (the skill level is without a doubt way higher, it's hilarious to me how people pretend people in 2010 or 2011 were anywhere near as good as players now; but no a diamond player also wouldn't win a gsl, just as delusional)
This works on a sliding scale though, ofc tournaments in 2017 or 2018 were still a lot more 'worthy' than they are now. Just looking at gsl code s these days is kinda depressing tbh, that's not a starleague anymore, a gsl now is a joke compared to a few years ago, and even more of a joke compared to the starleagues of kespa days. Right now they'd need the likes of serral, reynor, clem, and a few other foreigners more than these players need the 'prestige' of a gsl win.
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Serral is making good money doing what he's doing, why go through all of the hassle to play GSL when you're already a millionaire from this game?
And yes, Serral is top of the Zerg power pyramid zero question. Only Maru can match his skill level imo.
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Northern Ireland24410 Posts
On July 24 2023 19:09 freakzstrop wrote:
I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT...
Alternative universe Korean Serral is, potentially Serral with all his innate ability training day in, day out with some of the best progamers on the planet.
He could conceivably be even better than he is now
He could conceivably be worse too, that system is pretty damn regimented and doesn’t suit everyone. Byun is a really notable player who prospered more just grinding and figuring stuff out himself, both at his peak and now.
We’ve been in this new normal so long that it’s easily forgotten the barriers Serral broke. No non-Korean was ever even in the conversation for being the best player on the planet. Stephano had periods where maybe his ZvP was, Neeb took a Korean tournament with bracket that suited his strength, but they were never really the best on the planet.
Serral got into that conversation, and has bounced around number 1 to 5 world’s best players for years and years now
As I consistently say Dark is pretty underrated and would have a lot more gold to his name if his best years weren’t those of a much more stacked scene
Solar though? He’s very good but such a comparison is mental.
- Basically 70% set win rate in all matchups, ZvZ is 69.80%
- Serral has number 1 prize money. If you take out EU regionals entirely he’s still pretty high up the chain there
- Serral has winning H2H
- Serral has highest win rate ever vs Korean opposition. And this is generally with only playing better Koreans, as he rarely encounters the lower tier GSL players
- He’s 13-4 against Solar
- he’s 9-4 against Maru, Solar is 12-32 against Maru
It’s night and day and players like Solar and Ragnarok are very, very good
I just can’t anoint Serral the GOAT, (or others) because different eras and external factors. If Serral was throwing up the numbers he has done but 2/3 years earlier he just would be the GOAT, and people denying it would be similar to people saying Flash isn’t the BW GOAT
As it is, as I always say, unless you’re a Wayne Gretzky level talent the GOAT debate will always be well, debatable. Serral’s stomping a less deep scene than used to be the case
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Northern Ireland24410 Posts
On July 25 2023 00:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Serral is without a doubt one of the most, maybe THE MOST, skilled players this game has seen. Some trolls pretending that he'd just lose in the qualifiers or whatever (especially now, lol) is just bait, don't feed this nonsense.
At the same time i was quite disappointed when he first said he has no interest to compete in gsl, like it or not, but korea is the mekka of starcraft, starleagues like the gsl were for most of starcraft's history the most prestigious tournaments due to the competitive level being the highest. This isn't the case any longer, as the korean scene is just a shadow of its former self (maybe it wasn't the case anymore when he first said it, arguable i guess), but it would have been very exciting to see him compete in 2018 or so, add that to his resume in some form.
I never fully understood how the timeframe was too much for him, but hey ever person is different and i guess he's not comfortable outside his typical environment for 2 months, so be it.
As for the goat debate, i personally have a very difficult time to look at the past few years and think that they can be as significant as when sc2 was at its peak from a competitive level, during the kespa days. It just doesn't make sense to me, it would be like if football suddenly didn't get new players challenging for the top, there was no bigger club support anymore with coaches and professional analysis, etc, and the old guard only got older while many superstars retired. Such a scene imo cannot be impactful enough to crown a goat when the environment just is so much lesser than before, it doesn't add up in my mind, no matter how skilled the best players are.
Now ofc this works the most against someone like serral who just appeared too late in sc2's life cycle (though not only him, rogue who also gets thrown in a lot certainly has the same problem), but i think it is almost inarguable that this has to be an element to consider, the respective competitive level, NOT skill level, competitive level. (the skill level is without a doubt way higher, it's hilarious to me how people pretend people in 2010 or 2011 were anywhere near as good as players now; but no a diamond player also wouldn't win a gsl, just as delusional)
This works on a sliding scale though, ofc tournaments in 2017 or 2018 were still a lot more 'worthy' than they are now. Just looking at gsl code s these days is kinda depressing tbh, that's not a starleague anymore, a gsl now is a joke compared to a few years ago, and even more of a joke compared to the starleagues of kespa days. Right now they'd need the likes of serral, reynor, clem, and a few other foreigners more than these players need the 'prestige' of a gsl win.
Indeed. Anyone who elevates Rogue to GOAT candidacy, but not Serral, or vice versa is talking nonsense.
If Serral’s considerable, considerable international successes (excluding WCs) count for less because the scene is less competitive, so do Rogue’s GSLs.
I’m not saying they don’t have good cases to be anywhere in the top 10, but making a case for one and not the other makes little sense. One can’t even make a case for balance given they both play Zerg.
If this new Saudi tournament actually wanted to benefit the scene they’d have ploughed money into Code S, or creating a Code S/Code A pipeline for new talent to emerge. I mean the last to do so in any meaningful way was Zoun and he’s still a Kespa veteran who took a time to really flourish
It is how it is now. If a Flash 2.0 arrived and started dominating there’d still be that competivity asterix
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On July 25 2023 01:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2023 00:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Serral is without a doubt one of the most, maybe THE MOST, skilled players this game has seen. Some trolls pretending that he'd just lose in the qualifiers or whatever (especially now, lol) is just bait, don't feed this nonsense.
At the same time i was quite disappointed when he first said he has no interest to compete in gsl, like it or not, but korea is the mekka of starcraft, starleagues like the gsl were for most of starcraft's history the most prestigious tournaments due to the competitive level being the highest. This isn't the case any longer, as the korean scene is just a shadow of its former self (maybe it wasn't the case anymore when he first said it, arguable i guess), but it would have been very exciting to see him compete in 2018 or so, add that to his resume in some form.
I never fully understood how the timeframe was too much for him, but hey ever person is different and i guess he's not comfortable outside his typical environment for 2 months, so be it.
As for the goat debate, i personally have a very difficult time to look at the past few years and think that they can be as significant as when sc2 was at its peak from a competitive level, during the kespa days. It just doesn't make sense to me, it would be like if football suddenly didn't get new players challenging for the top, there was no bigger club support anymore with coaches and professional analysis, etc, and the old guard only got older while many superstars retired. Such a scene imo cannot be impactful enough to crown a goat when the environment just is so much lesser than before, it doesn't add up in my mind, no matter how skilled the best players are.
Now ofc this works the most against someone like serral who just appeared too late in sc2's life cycle (though not only him, rogue who also gets thrown in a lot certainly has the same problem), but i think it is almost inarguable that this has to be an element to consider, the respective competitive level, NOT skill level, competitive level. (the skill level is without a doubt way higher, it's hilarious to me how people pretend people in 2010 or 2011 were anywhere near as good as players now; but no a diamond player also wouldn't win a gsl, just as delusional)
This works on a sliding scale though, ofc tournaments in 2017 or 2018 were still a lot more 'worthy' than they are now. Just looking at gsl code s these days is kinda depressing tbh, that's not a starleague anymore, a gsl now is a joke compared to a few years ago, and even more of a joke compared to the starleagues of kespa days. Right now they'd need the likes of serral, reynor, clem, and a few other foreigners more than these players need the 'prestige' of a gsl win.
Indeed. Anyone who elevates Rogue to GOAT candidacy, but not Serral, or vice versa is talking nonsense. If Serral’s considerable, considerable international successes (excluding WCs) count for less because the scene is less competitive, so do Rogue’s GSLs. I’m not saying they don’t have good cases to be anywhere in the top 10, but making a case for one and not the other makes little sense. One can’t even make a case for balance given they both play Zerg. If this new Saudi tournament actually wanted to benefit the scene they’d have ploughed money into Code S, or creating a Code S/Code A pipeline for new talent to emerge. I mean the last to do so in any meaningful way was Zoun and he’s still a Kespa veteran who took a time to really flourish It is how it is now. If a Flash 2.0 arrived and started dominating there’d still be that competivity asterix
Hot take:
Sc2's biggest problem in regards to its esport was the focus on korea, that the scene took way too long to make it interesting for foreign players, to create an environment for them where they can go allin and bring the level up on the whole.
Korea simply didn't care for sc2 all that much, there was NEVER going to be any bigger new blood from korea, sc2 came out, and from then on more and more people simply retired, with an influx of 'new' players through the kespa switch, all players who were simply changing their game from bw to sc2. Same then, more and more players retiring, with noone new to challenge. It is a little more complicated than that, because games like league of legends played a big role too, young boys in korea simply played lol instead of sc2 as it was and is a lot more popular. Ofc this is true globally, but globally you have simply a LOT more potential players, korea is 50 million people.
In another world where sc2 would have managed to region lock and build every scene as best as possible, we'd maybe have a scene which would be a lot healthier, mainly through the foreign scene.
But then again, this is very complicated, rts not being as popular as many other genres, a big initial skill difference between the west and korea, sc2 not being a hit in korea and kespa still switching, generally just a lot of different interests to handle.
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Finland1838 Posts
Thanks for the interview! I remember in 2018 after the Blizzcon win randomly seeing Serral and his dad in my former city's public library (I think they were hosting some esports q&a for kids?) and going up to say hi. Nice guy 
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Doesn't matter who is the goat, what matters is all the great games they created, anyway just look at the stats , noone can compete with the consistency Maru has had at top tier competitions, and for way longer then both Rogue and Serral. He can do it all , he is talented in every aspect of the game and is God tier at all of them.
Rogue and Serral are both close second
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I thought Golden was the Korean Serral?
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I doubt he is the greatest SC2 player of all time. He is just right now for his era and nothing more
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On July 25 2023 00:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As for the goat debate, i personally have a very difficult time to look at the past few years and think that they can be as significant as when sc2 was at its peak from a competitive level, during the kespa days. It just doesn't make sense to me, it would be like if football suddenly didn't get new players challenging for the top, there was no bigger club support anymore with coaches and professional analysis, etc, and the old guard only got older while many superstars retired. Such a scene imo cannot be impactful enough to crown a goat when the environment just is so much lesser than before, it doesn't add up in my mind, no matter how skilled the best players are.
Now ofc this works the most against someone like serral who just appeared too late in sc2's life cycle (though not only him, rogue who also gets thrown in a lot certainly has the same problem), but i think it is almost inarguable that this has to be an element to consider, the respective competitive level, NOT skill level, competitive level. (the skill level is without a doubt way higher, it's hilarious to me how people pretend people in 2010 or 2011 were anywhere near as good as players now; but no a diamond player also wouldn't win a gsl, just as delusional)
This works on a sliding scale though, ofc tournaments in 2017 or 2018 were still a lot more 'worthy' than they are now. Just looking at gsl code s these days is kinda depressing tbh, that's not a starleague anymore, a gsl now is a joke compared to a few years ago, and even more of a joke compared to the starleagues of kespa days. Right now they'd need the likes of serral, reynor, clem, and a few other foreigners more than these players need the 'prestige' of a gsl win.
When people criticize today's competitive level in SCII they forget that the game has matured. Today's top players have 10 years of practice on their backs. The best have 22-25 years old and plays since 10-12...
We do have new players challenging the top, i.e. MaxPax, Clem, Oliveira. We just dont have as many as ins 2014-15 for 2 reasons:
1) The game has lost its peak os interest (but it has formed a stabilized pool of players)
2) And most important: Its harder now for new players to challenge a 25 yo professional whos been playing the game for 10 years of more.
Its like tennis or F1. How long do the top players remain on top? A decade, or more. How long does it take to new names winning championships regularly? A lot! That plateau has reached SCII.
We are seeing a matured game and the their best performing for years now. Maru and Serral. Simple as that. Its like seeing Federer, Nadal and Djokovic, or Hamilton and Verstappen.
The skill ceiling has never been so high. And that does affect competitiveness.
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On July 25 2023 21:08 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2023 00:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As for the goat debate, i personally have a very difficult time to look at the past few years and think that they can be as significant as when sc2 was at its peak from a competitive level, during the kespa days. It just doesn't make sense to me, it would be like if football suddenly didn't get new players challenging for the top, there was no bigger club support anymore with coaches and professional analysis, etc, and the old guard only got older while many superstars retired. Such a scene imo cannot be impactful enough to crown a goat when the environment just is so much lesser than before, it doesn't add up in my mind, no matter how skilled the best players are.
Now ofc this works the most against someone like serral who just appeared too late in sc2's life cycle (though not only him, rogue who also gets thrown in a lot certainly has the same problem), but i think it is almost inarguable that this has to be an element to consider, the respective competitive level, NOT skill level, competitive level. (the skill level is without a doubt way higher, it's hilarious to me how people pretend people in 2010 or 2011 were anywhere near as good as players now; but no a diamond player also wouldn't win a gsl, just as delusional)
This works on a sliding scale though, ofc tournaments in 2017 or 2018 were still a lot more 'worthy' than they are now. Just looking at gsl code s these days is kinda depressing tbh, that's not a starleague anymore, a gsl now is a joke compared to a few years ago, and even more of a joke compared to the starleagues of kespa days. Right now they'd need the likes of serral, reynor, clem, and a few other foreigners more than these players need the 'prestige' of a gsl win.
When people criticize today's competitive level in SCII they forget that the game has matured. Today's top players have 10 years of practice on their backs. The best have 22-25 years old and plays since 10-12... We do have new players challenging the top, i.e. MaxPax, Clem, Oliveira. We just dont have as many as ins 2014-15 for 2 reasons: 1) The game has lost its peak os interest (but it has formed a stabilized pool of players) 2) And most important: Its harder now for new players to challenge a 25 yo professional whos been playing the game for 10 years of more. Its like tennis or F1. How long do the top players remain on top? A decade, or more. How long does it take to new names winning championships regularly? A lot! That plateau has reached SCII. We are seeing a matured game and the their best performing for years now. Maru and Serral. Simple as that. Its like seeing Federer, Nadal and Djokovic, or Hamilton and Verstappen. The skill ceiling has never been so high. And that does affect competitiveness.
1) directly leads to many, many players retiring way before they 'had to'. Having a stable player pool which looks like our current one is exactly the argument against the current era being all that impactful for this goat discussion in my mind. The scene isn't just past its peak, it is floating around in a quasi unsupported state, where tournaments like gsl have to crowdfund to even have offline play at all with 16 players.
2) Sure that is a valid idea to some extent, but i don't think it is "more important" at all. You compare it to scenes where something similar happened, but these scenes are very much sustainable with big interest and new players picking up the game all the time. We just had alcaraz winning wimbledon against djocovic, promising himself to be the next big deal. The scene is very much "alive". The same cannot be said for sc2, at all. That a few players come to mind is fine (though arguable to what extent they are even new blood to begin with), but it's a rather dire situation overall, a scene has to be able to sustain itself on a similar level throughout if it wants to be considered proper.
Our current scene is arguably closer to something like the aoe2 circuit or the bw one in korea, more 'professional' due to some people still pumping money into it, but competitively a shadow of its former self. I don't see any way to ignore this in a goat conversation, it just doesn't make sense.
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Germany15880 Posts
On July 25 2023 21:08 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2023 00:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As for the goat debate, i personally have a very difficult time to look at the past few years and think that they can be as significant as when sc2 was at its peak from a competitive level, during the kespa days. It just doesn't make sense to me, it would be like if football suddenly didn't get new players challenging for the top, there was no bigger club support anymore with coaches and professional analysis, etc, and the old guard only got older while many superstars retired. Such a scene imo cannot be impactful enough to crown a goat when the environment just is so much lesser than before, it doesn't add up in my mind, no matter how skilled the best players are.
Now ofc this works the most against someone like serral who just appeared too late in sc2's life cycle (though not only him, rogue who also gets thrown in a lot certainly has the same problem), but i think it is almost inarguable that this has to be an element to consider, the respective competitive level, NOT skill level, competitive level. (the skill level is without a doubt way higher, it's hilarious to me how people pretend people in 2010 or 2011 were anywhere near as good as players now; but no a diamond player also wouldn't win a gsl, just as delusional)
This works on a sliding scale though, ofc tournaments in 2017 or 2018 were still a lot more 'worthy' than they are now. Just looking at gsl code s these days is kinda depressing tbh, that's not a starleague anymore, a gsl now is a joke compared to a few years ago, and even more of a joke compared to the starleagues of kespa days. Right now they'd need the likes of serral, reynor, clem, and a few other foreigners more than these players need the 'prestige' of a gsl win.
2) And most important: Its harder now for new players to challenge a 25 yo professional whos been playing the game for 10 years of more.
This is the case in every sport and even some other older esports like LoL or CS, and it doesn't prevent new players at all. The same guys keep winning forever in sc2 because there isn't any new blood challenging them, simple as that.
Maru and Serral are the best from the pool of players that sticked around, but that can't be compared to Nadal and Federer who managed to stay on top against a constant influx of new challengers.
And that's not even factoring in the vastly reduced amount of championship contenders making every run much easier, and the far less professional practice environment
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EPT
