On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
I watched those GSLs, from FruitDealer to basically every GSL in WoL. Randoms GM of today are bad (not the pros, but like top 50 to top 200 GM EU). WoL is not the same game and they don’t know nor remember WoL very well so they would have no knowledge and would probably lose to creative / smart players of back then. Mechanics wise it’s not the same game, you don’t have 12 workers start with A LOT of QoL changes that make macro easier, so those random GM would not even have better mechanics than random KR. They might get a top 8, but it’s highly unlikely they would do better.
Again, I am not talking about current pros. But the gap between pros and lower tier players is gigantic. For example, try to watch the lower level tournaments with terrans such as Kas, BabyMarine, etc. And notice the huge difference with the top EU terrans. Then now realize that top 50 to top 200 EU GM players are even worse than the likes of Kas and BabyMarine.
watch those GSLs again. if you truly believe that 2010 GSL skill > 2023 low / mid GM skill, then your memory is awful
who's to say that they don't remember WoL very well? I remember WoL perfectly well because I played it a lot. I still have to remind myself that the first supply depot is built on 14/15 and not 10/11. in my head, a barracks will always be built on 12 supply (or 11/11 if you are Mvp :-)). I remember vividly a minor detail in HotS: after the first depot is built, there was some delay before you had 150 minerals to build a barracks. however, if you delay the 12th SCV, you can afford the barracks immediately. this allowed you to get 3 reapers and the timings lined up such that the factory / reactor was built in perfect sync. on the other hand, if you built the barracks at a normal time and did not delay the SCV, you could only make 2 reapers before reactor. people remember stuff like this. I'm sure that nobody who remembers WoL would be surprised by a thor drop on Lost Temple
take a high master / low GM who has played since WoL, who still remembers the 6-worker start, and who remembers the 2010 metagame. send them back in time and that player will win GSL 2010 easily. they would probably win 2 GSLs in a row before the koreans have caught up enough in skill. GSL RO64 2010 is diamond league today. yes, diamond league. and if you don't believe me, please... go back and watch the VODs lol. they're all on youtube. even Maru looked diamond league in 2010. if you have a current GM player who practices all aspects of play (and not just cannon rushing every game), they will wipe the floor with koreans in 2010. if you went back in 2010 and focus-fired speed banelings, people would think you are using hacks, or that you are a literal god. go back and watch the crowd reaction when MKP first split his marines against banes, then be reminded that even a modern-day platinum player can execute the same tricks.
On July 23 2023 01:39 Curufinwe Feanor wrote: I wonder how people use the argument of balance in favor of Maru against Serral on the GOAT discussion, since 2018 and Serral's ascension, no Korean zerg has had the same consistency of Serral internationally or Maru, nationaly...
Please someone enlighten me.
Don’t overthink it
It’s the Maru fanboy / Serral haters agenda
Serral surpassed Maru in 2019 in terms of GOAT talks
Right now Serral is just over lapping the field
Do you ever post anything remotely sensible?
My pet theory is that it's some sort of performance art. Nothing else can explain someone making posts that are so consistently bad for so long.
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
But see these is just the type of things I mean when I say people miss remember early sc2 or ignore the context.
Yes, people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand. All maps now let you fast expand and close up the ramp with buildings if needed, go take a look at Xel Naga caverns or metalopolis or steppes of war and tell me you could fast expand there. Also, bases literally had more minerals and gas than they do currently so there was less of a rush to expand.
For example with protoss, you couldn't dream to expand fast or you'd die to a 6 pool (not 12 pool, 6 pool). Or they could get into your base because some bases had 2 entrances, or one blocked by destructible rocks. Then some better maps were released and you could fast expand using your nexus as part of the wall, but why bother when you could 4 gate and win? and then some other maps were released with areas where you could block the naturals entrance, and thats when people started using FFE. And then later with the adepts and change to 12 workers economy it's when finally you could gate expand. It's not that players before weren't good enough to open in the lowground, it's because it was suicide.
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
That is true, but again, it's not that players back then weren't skilled enough to use them, it's because the game hadn't been figured out as much as it's now, and there were patches monthy or every couple of months that changed the game and oppened new strategies. It was not a matter of players not being good enough.
So I'll grant that we have more knowledge about the game now, but that doesn't mean more skill. And like poppi points out, a lot of that knowledge wouldn't work back then.
Sure, go back to wol and host and do a tank pressure with liberators and marines. O wait, liberators don't exist, tanks deal half the damage, and immortals have hardened shields. Ok then do this other all in cause you know protoss is vulnerable, oh shit Nexus overcharge with 15 range atacking you and defending the all in. Ok go and do that roach all in, o wait you just got zoned out with 10 forcefields and immortals with hardened shields are wrecking your stuff. Or hell, someone went up your ramp and put a forcefield on the ramp and you can't get there.
There also weren't QOL things like select all army hotkey, or select all idle workers.
On July 23 2023 08:39 WombaT wrote:
It took Toss for example a long time to even use warp prisms much (thanks Liquid HerO) in ANY capacity never mind using them to shield Templars from EMPs and other such funkiness
Here is another example. I understand where youre coming from, "if they were that good, why didn't they do that?" But the answer is not because they weren't good. It's because they didn't have to.
Why would people waste valuable robo time making warp prism, when you could build Colossus that dealt more damage than they do now instead of just vs light like they do now, to make a warp prism, when you can simply put a proxy pylon and fast warp in?
The warp prism is only a requirement now because they nerfed fast warp ins anywhere on the map and they buffed it's pick up range.
Or why didn't they use them to protect HT from Ghost EMP? Becase they didn't need to. Khaydarin amulet exist, a ghost EMPd your templars? Morph them into an archon and instantly warp in more HT in 5 seconds that will be able to cast storm. And then after Khaydarym amulet was removed, you could always spread the HT. Also Feedback range was buffed so you could feedback ghost as well, and at the time feedback insta killed units if they had enough energy. And again, the warp prism wasn't as much of a requirement as it's today.
I feel people underestimate how much the game changed. We have more workers, less minerals per base, more qol changes, probably at least 100 patches of blizzard buffing the infestor, nerfing it buffing the hellions, nerfing them, buffing the queens, buffing charge so it always hit, buffing it so it dealt damage on hit, removing the damage on hit but increasing zealots base speed, adding muta regen, introducing the ravager to destroy forcefields, shield batteries, mothership core, the rework of the carrier (remember when it was a meme unit that used to take 120 seconds to build one? now it takes 64, no wonder they are more used now).
There is so much things it was possible to do back then, and so much things that weren't possible, just with balance and map changes alone, that you can't possiby say they played worse. They played the way they did cause it was a different game back then. I do think skill increased from start of wol to the end of it, and from start of hots to the fall of kespa. But after that? I'm not sure.
And that's also why I cannot say there is a sc2 GOAT. LotV might as well be starcraft 3 compared to WoL.
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
But see these is just the type of things I mean when I say people miss remember early sc2 or ignore the context.
Yes, people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand. All maps now let you fast expand and close up the ramp with buildings if needed, go take a look at Xel Naga caverns or metalopolis or steppes of war and tell me you could fast expand there. Also, bases literally had more minerals and gas than they do currently so there was less of a rush to expand.
For example with protoss, you couldn't dream to expand fast or you'd die to a 6 pool (not 12 pool, 6 pool). Or they could get into your base because some bases had 2 entrances, or one blocked by destructible rocks. Then some better maps were released and you could fast expand using your nexus as part of the wall, but why bother when you could 4 gate and win? and then some other maps were released with areas where you could block the naturals entrance, and thats when people started using FFE. And then later with the adepts and change to 12 workers economy it's when finally you could gate expand. It's not that players before weren't good enough to open in the lowground, it's because it was suicide.
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
That is true, but again, it's not that players back then weren't skilled enough to use them, it's because the game hadn't been figured out as much as it's now, and there were patches monthy or every couple of months that changed the game and oppened new strategies. It was not a matter of players not being good enough.
So I'll grant that we have more knowledge about the game now, but that doesn't mean more skill. And like poppi points out, a lot of that knowledge wouldn't work back then.
Sure, go back to wol and host and do a tank pressure with liberators and marines. O wait, liberators don't exist, tanks deal half the damage, and immortals have hardened shields. Ok then do this other all in cause you know protoss is vulnerable, oh shit Nexus overcharge with 15 range atacking you and defending the all in. Ok go and do that roach all in, o wait you just got zoned out with 10 forcefields and immortals with hardened shields are wrecking your stuff. Or hell, someone went up your ramp and put a forcefield on the ramp and you can't get there.
There also weren't QOL things like select all army hotkey, or select all idle workers.
It took Toss for example a long time to even use warp prisms much (thanks Liquid HerO) in ANY capacity never mind using them to shield Templars from EMPs and other such funkiness
Here is another example. I understand where youre coming from, "if they were that good, why didn't they do that?" But the answer is not because they weren't good. It's because they didn't have to.
Why would people waste valuable robo time making warp prism, when you could build Colossus that dealt more damage than they do now instead of just vs light like they do now, to make a warp prism, when you can simply put a proxy pylon and fast warp in?
The warp prism is only a requirement now because they nerfed fast warp ins anywhere on the map and they buffed it's pick up range.
Or why didn't they use them to protect HT from Ghost EMP? Becase they didn't need to. Khaydarin amulet exist, a ghost EMPd your templars? Morph them into an archon and instantly warp in more HT in 5 seconds that will be able to cast storm. And then after Khaydarym amulet was removed, you could always spread the HT. Also Feedback range was buffed so you could feedback ghost as well, and at the time feedback insta killed units if they had enough energy. And again, the warp prism wasn't as much of a requirement as it's today.
I feel people underestimate how much the game changed. We have more workers, less minerals per base, more qol changes, probably at least 100 patches of blizzard buffing the infestor, nerfing it buffing the hellions, nerfing them, buffing the queens, buffing charge so it always hit, buffing it so it dealt damage on hit, removing the damage on hit but increasing zealots base speed, adding muta regen, introducing the ravager to destroy forcefields, shield batteries, mothership core, the rework of the carrier (remember when it was a meme unit that used to take 120 seconds to build one? now it takes 64, no wonder they are more used now).
There is so much things it was possible to do back then, and so much things that weren't possible, just with balance and map changes alone, that you can't possiby say they played worse. They played the way they did cause it was a different game back then. I do think skill increased from start of wol to the end of it, and from start of hots to the fall of kespa. But after that? I'm not sure.
And that's also why I cannot say there is a sc2 GOAT. LotV might as well be starcraft 3 compared to WoL.
Well yeah which was was I was couching examples in things that were latter day WoL staples, i.e. Creator’s dual forge PvT or Liquid HerO’s liberal use of prisms
Although they feel quite far along in WoL terms you’re still talking the first couple of years of SC2
Stuff you could conceivably just introduce but earlier than it was done, plus with other modern knowledge
Or just mechanical stuff. MKP’s splits vs Kyrix initially were mind blowing stuff at the time but but your average decent Terran GM is likely way outdoing that these days
Agreed 100% that trying to crown an overall SC2 GOAT starts to get pointless across such a massively changing game
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
But see these is just the type of things I mean when I say people miss remember early sc2 or ignore the context.
Yes, people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand. All maps now let you fast expand and close up the ramp with buildings if needed, go take a look at Xel Naga caverns or metalopolis or steppes of war and tell me you could fast expand there. Also, bases literally had more minerals and gas than they do currently so there was less of a rush to expand.
For example with protoss, you couldn't dream to expand fast or you'd die to a 6 pool (not 12 pool, 6 pool). Or they could get into your base because some bases had 2 entrances, or one blocked by destructible rocks. Then some better maps were released and you could fast expand using your nexus as part of the wall, but why bother when you could 4 gate and win? and then some other maps were released with areas where you could block the naturals entrance, and thats when people started using FFE. And then later with the adepts and change to 12 workers economy it's when finally you could gate expand. It's not that players before weren't good enough to open in the lowground, it's because it was suicide.
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
That is true, but again, it's not that players back then weren't skilled enough to use them, it's because the game hadn't been figured out as much as it's now, and there were patches monthy or every couple of months that changed the game and oppened new strategies. It was not a matter of players not being good enough.
So I'll grant that we have more knowledge about the game now, but that doesn't mean more skill. And like poppi points out, a lot of that knowledge wouldn't work back then.
Sure, go back to wol and host and do a tank pressure with liberators and marines. O wait, liberators don't exist, tanks deal half the damage, and immortals have hardened shields. Ok then do this other all in cause you know protoss is vulnerable, oh shit Nexus overcharge with 15 range atacking you and defending the all in. Ok go and do that roach all in, o wait you just got zoned out with 10 forcefields and immortals with hardened shields are wrecking your stuff. Or hell, someone went up your ramp and put a forcefield on the ramp and you can't get there.
There also weren't QOL things like select all army hotkey, or select all idle workers.
"people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand"
nope. they played silly because they were cavemen banging together sticks and rocks for the first time.
everyone in 2010 GSL was just straight-up BAD
let me just pick a random VOD and pick it apart for you. here we are:
2010 Sony Ericsson StarCraft II Open Season 2, Grand Finals. Nestea vs. MKP, set 6 on Xel'Naga Caverns (the one that is supposedly suicide to expand on)
top tier bunker placement right there lmao. check out that sim-city at the top of the ramp! send me back in time. I will tell MKP that supply depots can be raised and lowered!
this is a fucking GSL grand finals man, and he can't even build his depots in the right place?
so yea, this is how MKP opened:
12 barracks at home no gas aggressive bunker at Nestea's ramp
I contend that even a modern-day platinum player would understand why this tactic is not going to work.
is the bunker a fake-out? if it is, it's obviously not worth it. whichever way you wanna go, this fake-out delays something important for the terran: either your factory or stim.
is MKP under the assumption that this bunker harass pays for itself? pulling 3 drones off the line in exchange for 25 minerals? to a 2010 caveman terran brain, yes, that might seem worth it, but it's not. MKP is horribly mistaken. soon Nestea will be researching zergling speed and MKP's got nothing in the pipe to deal with it. no hellions, no stim, nothing.
opening like this also leaves you vulnerable to zerg rushes.
MKP built his first depot near the mineral line. again, 2010 caveman thinking: "it costs extra mining time to send my SCV all the way to the ramp!" yea, like 10 minerals. totally worth it. having no wall-off against a 6-pool or 10-pool can literally end the game. it was never worth it. fast forward to 2012: the only terran still building his first depot at the mineral line vZ is GuMiho going gas first, and only very occasionally on certain maps that he seemed to think would benefit from an exceptionally early hellion.
MKP does indeed send his first marine across the map. what is he hoping to accomplish? to somehow slide it into a bunker that has no chance of finishing? or was he hoping to pick off a single drone? either way, this is absolutely brainless play. he could have used that marine to go hunting for Nestea's overlord instead. if he really wanted to get a marine in the bunker, or pick off some drones, he'd know to proxy his barracks and bring several SCVs.
send a 2023 GM back to play this game in MKP's place. they will proxy 2 barracks and bring 3 SCVs. they'll probably build the bunker elsewhere and build a gas behind it: just putting on some pressure, which for all Nestea knows could be a fully-committed all-in. pulling all the boys with a bunker rush was definitely a thing in WoL. our time-traveller would perhaps be aware of this and subvert expectations by building a factory at home. nobody, and I mean NOBODY was doing non-commital 2-raxx pressure against zerg back then -- and if they did, they certainly didn't build a gas behind it. they'd go straight into 4 barracks or 3CC before even starting a gas.
that's exactly what MKP does here: throws the CC down, sends his marine back home, and throws up an extra 3 barracks. 4 barracks total. techlab on the 1st barracks. no reactors... just awful. he goes for a combat shield timing, like you might expect Clem to do occasionally. a combat shield timing without a wall? well MKP, what happens if you lose all your marines? what then? you got no wall back at home buddy. there is no transitioning out of this if it goes poorly. that's how he loses this game.
for some inexplicable reason, known only to 2010 caveman terrans, he builds marauders to go with his combat shield push
he also brings 4 random SCVs to help with his combat shield push (was he planning to build MORE bunkers??)
a few possible explanations:
MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea is capable of at this point in the game MKP has no idea how strong his marines are against the zerglings Nestea is capable of having MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea actually decided to build
anyway, our boy Foxer gets completely overwhelmed and is still rallying marauders and marines on move-command into swarms of zerglings by the time Nestea has reached MKP's natural. he doesn't even throw down an emergency wall at his main ramp to stop the incoming counter-push. he still has SCVs mining in his natural, and pulls them with like 2 marines hoping that will be enough to hold on. he even pulls the MULEs to help defend
and you're seriously suggesting that it wasn't a matter of players being good enough? OK buddy
anyway, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. I played WoL. I remember the maps, the builds, the strats and the whole evolving meta (at least for terran)
I remember it took several GSL seasons before Mvp showed these halfwits how to safely expand with hellions and banshees. you don't need a natural choke to effectively defend with hellions. if you're worried about speedlings, you can just block your main ramp with the hellions, poke out, thin them out a bit, then back safe to your main ramp. totally doable on Xel'Naga Caverns. maybe you have to go 12 raxx 13 gas and do a factory expand, but it'd still be 100x better than the shit terrans were doing in 2010. thor expand = good? really? c'mon
you say I ignore the context. I say you are ignoring what 13 years can do to a mf. these players didn't know how to scout or defend rushes. they didn't know how to take small advantages with skirmishing or harass. they were absolutely not skilled enough to use hellion / banshee effectively. please go watch TheBestfOu control his banshees in Super Tournament 2011:
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
But see these is just the type of things I mean when I say people miss remember early sc2 or ignore the context.
Yes, people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand. All maps now let you fast expand and close up the ramp with buildings if needed, go take a look at Xel Naga caverns or metalopolis or steppes of war and tell me you could fast expand there. Also, bases literally had more minerals and gas than they do currently so there was less of a rush to expand.
For example with protoss, you couldn't dream to expand fast or you'd die to a 6 pool (not 12 pool, 6 pool). Or they could get into your base because some bases had 2 entrances, or one blocked by destructible rocks. Then some better maps were released and you could fast expand using your nexus as part of the wall, but why bother when you could 4 gate and win? and then some other maps were released with areas where you could block the naturals entrance, and thats when people started using FFE. And then later with the adepts and change to 12 workers economy it's when finally you could gate expand. It's not that players before weren't good enough to open in the lowground, it's because it was suicide.
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
That is true, but again, it's not that players back then weren't skilled enough to use them, it's because the game hadn't been figured out as much as it's now, and there were patches monthy or every couple of months that changed the game and oppened new strategies. It was not a matter of players not being good enough.
So I'll grant that we have more knowledge about the game now, but that doesn't mean more skill. And like poppi points out, a lot of that knowledge wouldn't work back then.
Sure, go back to wol and host and do a tank pressure with liberators and marines. O wait, liberators don't exist, tanks deal half the damage, and immortals have hardened shields. Ok then do this other all in cause you know protoss is vulnerable, oh shit Nexus overcharge with 15 range atacking you and defending the all in. Ok go and do that roach all in, o wait you just got zoned out with 10 forcefields and immortals with hardened shields are wrecking your stuff. Or hell, someone went up your ramp and put a forcefield on the ramp and you can't get there.
There also weren't QOL things like select all army hotkey, or select all idle workers.
"people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand"
nope. they played silly because they were cavemen banging together sticks and rocks for the first time.
everyone in 2010 GSL was just straight-up BAD
let me just pick a random VOD and pick it apart for you. here we are:
2010 Sony Ericsson StarCraft II Open Season 2, Grand Finals. Nestea vs. MKP, set 6 on Xel'Naga Caverns (the one that is supposedly suicide to expand on)
top tier bunker placement right there lmao. check out that sim-city at the top of the ramp! send me back in time. I will tell MKP that supply depots can be raised and lowered!
this is a fucking GSL grand finals man, and he can't even build his depots in the right place?
so yea, this is how MKP opened:
12 barracks at home no gas aggressive bunker at Nestea's ramp
I contend that even a modern-day platinum player would understand why this tactic is not going to work.
is the bunker a fake-out? if it is, it's obviously not worth it. whichever way you wanna go, this fake-out delays something important for the terran: either your factory or stim.
is MKP under the assumption that this bunker harass pays for itself? pulling 3 drones off the line in exchange for 25 minerals? to a 2010 caveman terran brain, yes, that might seem worth it, but it's not. MKP is horribly mistaken. soon Nestea will be researching zergling speed and MKP's got nothing in the pipe to deal with it. no hellions, no stim, nothing.
opening like this also leaves you vulnerable to zerg rushes.
MKP built his first depot near the mineral line. again, 2010 caveman thinking: "it costs extra mining time to send my SCV all the way to the ramp!" yea, like 10 minerals. totally worth it. having no wall-off against a 6-pool or 10-pool can literally end the game. it was never worth it. fast forward to 2012: the only terran still building his first depot at the mineral line vZ is GuMiho going gas first, and only very occasionally on certain maps that he seemed to think would benefit from an exceptionally early hellion.
MKP does indeed send his first marine across the map. what is he hoping to accomplish? to somehow slide it into a bunker that has no chance of finishing? or was he hoping to pick off a single drone? either way, this is absolutely brainless play. he could have used that marine to go hunting for Nestea's overlord instead. if he really wanted to get a marine in the bunker, or pick off some drones, he'd know to proxy his barracks and bring several SCVs.
send a 2023 GM back to play this game in MKP's place. they will proxy 2 barracks and bring 3 SCVs. they'll probably build the bunker elsewhere and build a gas behind it: just putting on some pressure, which for all Nestea knows could be a fully-committed all-in. pulling all the boys with a bunker rush was definitely a thing in WoL. our time-traveller would perhaps be aware of this and subvert expectations by building a factory at home. nobody, and I mean NOBODY was doing non-commital 2-raxx pressure against zerg back then -- and if they did, they certainly didn't build a gas behind it. they'd go straight into 4 barracks or 3CC before even starting a gas.
that's exactly what MKP does here: throws the CC down, sends his marine back home, and throws up an extra 3 barracks. 4 barracks total. techlab on the 1st barracks. no reactors... just awful. he goes for a combat shield timing, like you might expect Clem to do occasionally. a combat shield timing without a wall? well MKP, what happens if you lose all your marines? what then? you got no wall back at home buddy. there is no transitioning out of this if it goes poorly. that's how he loses this game.
for some inexplicable reason, known only to 2010 caveman terrans, he builds marauders to go with his combat shield push
he also brings 4 random SCVs to help with his combat shield push (was he planning to build MORE bunkers??)
a few possible explanations:
MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea is capable of at this point in the game MKP has no idea how strong his marines are against the zerglings Nestea is capable of having MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea actually decided to build
anyway, our boy Foxer gets completely overwhelmed and is still rallying marauders and marines on move-command into swarms of zerglings by the time Nestea has reached MKP's natural. he doesn't even throw down an emergency wall at his main ramp to stop the incoming counter-push. he still has SCVs mining in his natural, and pulls them with like 2 marines hoping that will be enough to hold on. he even pulls the MULEs to help defend
and you're seriously suggesting that it wasn't a matter of players being good enough? OK buddy
anyway, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. I played WoL. I remember the maps, the builds, the strats and the whole evolving meta (at least for terran)
I remember it took several GSL seasons before Mvp showed these halfwits how to safely expand with hellions and banshees. you don't need a natural choke to effectively defend with hellions. if you're worried about speedlings, you can just block your main ramp with the hellions, poke out, thin them out a bit, then back safe to your main ramp. totally doable on Xel'Naga Caverns. maybe you have to go 12 raxx 13 gas and do a factory expand, but it'd still be 100x better than the shit terrans were doing in 2010. thor expand = good? really? c'mon
you say I ignore the context. I say you are ignoring what 13 years can do to a mf. these players didn't know how to scout or defend rushes. they didn't know how to take small advantages with skirmishing or harass. they were absolutely not skilled enough to use hellion / banshee effectively. please go watch TheBestfOu control his banshees in Super Tournament 2011:
Thank you for your hilarious interpretation of that game. In case you didn't know, 2 rax was an all-in build until lotv. you're not casually 2 raxing then taking a gas and expanding like everything is fine.
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
But see these is just the type of things I mean when I say people miss remember early sc2 or ignore the context.
Yes, people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand. All maps now let you fast expand and close up the ramp with buildings if needed, go take a look at Xel Naga caverns or metalopolis or steppes of war and tell me you could fast expand there. Also, bases literally had more minerals and gas than they do currently so there was less of a rush to expand.
For example with protoss, you couldn't dream to expand fast or you'd die to a 6 pool (not 12 pool, 6 pool). Or they could get into your base because some bases had 2 entrances, or one blocked by destructible rocks. Then some better maps were released and you could fast expand using your nexus as part of the wall, but why bother when you could 4 gate and win? and then some other maps were released with areas where you could block the naturals entrance, and thats when people started using FFE. And then later with the adepts and change to 12 workers economy it's when finally you could gate expand. It's not that players before weren't good enough to open in the lowground, it's because it was suicide.
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
That is true, but again, it's not that players back then weren't skilled enough to use them, it's because the game hadn't been figured out as much as it's now, and there were patches monthy or every couple of months that changed the game and oppened new strategies. It was not a matter of players not being good enough.
So I'll grant that we have more knowledge about the game now, but that doesn't mean more skill. And like poppi points out, a lot of that knowledge wouldn't work back then.
Sure, go back to wol and host and do a tank pressure with liberators and marines. O wait, liberators don't exist, tanks deal half the damage, and immortals have hardened shields. Ok then do this other all in cause you know protoss is vulnerable, oh shit Nexus overcharge with 15 range atacking you and defending the all in. Ok go and do that roach all in, o wait you just got zoned out with 10 forcefields and immortals with hardened shields are wrecking your stuff. Or hell, someone went up your ramp and put a forcefield on the ramp and you can't get there.
There also weren't QOL things like select all army hotkey, or select all idle workers.
"people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand"
nope. they played silly because they were cavemen banging together sticks and rocks for the first time.
everyone in 2010 GSL was just straight-up BAD
let me just pick a random VOD and pick it apart for you. here we are:
2010 Sony Ericsson StarCraft II Open Season 2, Grand Finals. Nestea vs. MKP, set 6 on Xel'Naga Caverns (the one that is supposedly suicide to expand on)
top tier bunker placement right there lmao. check out that sim-city at the top of the ramp! send me back in time. I will tell MKP that supply depots can be raised and lowered!
this is a fucking GSL grand finals man, and he can't even build his depots in the right place?
so yea, this is how MKP opened:
12 barracks at home no gas aggressive bunker at Nestea's ramp
I contend that even a modern-day platinum player would understand why this tactic is not going to work.
is the bunker a fake-out? if it is, it's obviously not worth it. whichever way you wanna go, this fake-out delays something important for the terran: either your factory or stim.
is MKP under the assumption that this bunker harass pays for itself? pulling 3 drones off the line in exchange for 25 minerals? to a 2010 caveman terran brain, yes, that might seem worth it, but it's not. MKP is horribly mistaken. soon Nestea will be researching zergling speed and MKP's got nothing in the pipe to deal with it. no hellions, no stim, nothing.
opening like this also leaves you vulnerable to zerg rushes.
MKP built his first depot near the mineral line. again, 2010 caveman thinking: "it costs extra mining time to send my SCV all the way to the ramp!" yea, like 10 minerals. totally worth it. having no wall-off against a 6-pool or 10-pool can literally end the game. it was never worth it. fast forward to 2012: the only terran still building his first depot at the mineral line vZ is GuMiho going gas first, and only very occasionally on certain maps that he seemed to think would benefit from an exceptionally early hellion.
MKP does indeed send his first marine across the map. what is he hoping to accomplish? to somehow slide it into a bunker that has no chance of finishing? or was he hoping to pick off a single drone? either way, this is absolutely brainless play. he could have used that marine to go hunting for Nestea's overlord instead. if he really wanted to get a marine in the bunker, or pick off some drones, he'd know to proxy his barracks and bring several SCVs.
send a 2023 GM back to play this game in MKP's place. they will proxy 2 barracks and bring 3 SCVs. they'll probably build the bunker elsewhere and build a gas behind it: just putting on some pressure, which for all Nestea knows could be a fully-committed all-in. pulling all the boys with a bunker rush was definitely a thing in WoL. our time-traveller would perhaps be aware of this and subvert expectations by building a factory at home. nobody, and I mean NOBODY was doing non-commital 2-raxx pressure against zerg back then -- and if they did, they certainly didn't build a gas behind it. they'd go straight into 4 barracks or 3CC before even starting a gas.
that's exactly what MKP does here: throws the CC down, sends his marine back home, and throws up an extra 3 barracks. 4 barracks total. techlab on the 1st barracks. no reactors... just awful. he goes for a combat shield timing, like you might expect Clem to do occasionally. a combat shield timing without a wall? well MKP, what happens if you lose all your marines? what then? you got no wall back at home buddy. there is no transitioning out of this if it goes poorly. that's how he loses this game.
for some inexplicable reason, known only to 2010 caveman terrans, he builds marauders to go with his combat shield push
he also brings 4 random SCVs to help with his combat shield push (was he planning to build MORE bunkers??)
a few possible explanations:
MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea is capable of at this point in the game MKP has no idea how strong his marines are against the zerglings Nestea is capable of having MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea actually decided to build
anyway, our boy Foxer gets completely overwhelmed and is still rallying marauders and marines on move-command into swarms of zerglings by the time Nestea has reached MKP's natural. he doesn't even throw down an emergency wall at his main ramp to stop the incoming counter-push. he still has SCVs mining in his natural, and pulls them with like 2 marines hoping that will be enough to hold on. he even pulls the MULEs to help defend
and you're seriously suggesting that it wasn't a matter of players being good enough? OK buddy
anyway, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. I played WoL. I remember the maps, the builds, the strats and the whole evolving meta (at least for terran)
I remember it took several GSL seasons before Mvp showed these halfwits how to safely expand with hellions and banshees. you don't need a natural choke to effectively defend with hellions. if you're worried about speedlings, you can just block your main ramp with the hellions, poke out, thin them out a bit, then back safe to your main ramp. totally doable on Xel'Naga Caverns. maybe you have to go 12 raxx 13 gas and do a factory expand, but it'd still be 100x better than the shit terrans were doing in 2010. thor expand = good? really? c'mon
you say I ignore the context. I say you are ignoring what 13 years can do to a mf. these players didn't know how to scout or defend rushes. they didn't know how to take small advantages with skirmishing or harass. they were absolutely not skilled enough to use hellion / banshee effectively. please go watch TheBestfOu control his banshees in Super Tournament 2011:
Thank you for your hilarious interpretation of that game. In case you didn't know, 2 rax was an all-in build until lotv. you're not casually 2 raxing then taking a gas and expanding like everything is fine.
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
But see these is just the type of things I mean when I say people miss remember early sc2 or ignore the context.
Yes, people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand. All maps now let you fast expand and close up the ramp with buildings if needed, go take a look at Xel Naga caverns or metalopolis or steppes of war and tell me you could fast expand there. Also, bases literally had more minerals and gas than they do currently so there was less of a rush to expand.
For example with protoss, you couldn't dream to expand fast or you'd die to a 6 pool (not 12 pool, 6 pool). Or they could get into your base because some bases had 2 entrances, or one blocked by destructible rocks. Then some better maps were released and you could fast expand using your nexus as part of the wall, but why bother when you could 4 gate and win? and then some other maps were released with areas where you could block the naturals entrance, and thats when people started using FFE. And then later with the adepts and change to 12 workers economy it's when finally you could gate expand. It's not that players before weren't good enough to open in the lowground, it's because it was suicide.
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
That is true, but again, it's not that players back then weren't skilled enough to use them, it's because the game hadn't been figured out as much as it's now, and there were patches monthy or every couple of months that changed the game and oppened new strategies. It was not a matter of players not being good enough.
So I'll grant that we have more knowledge about the game now, but that doesn't mean more skill. And like poppi points out, a lot of that knowledge wouldn't work back then.
Sure, go back to wol and host and do a tank pressure with liberators and marines. O wait, liberators don't exist, tanks deal half the damage, and immortals have hardened shields. Ok then do this other all in cause you know protoss is vulnerable, oh shit Nexus overcharge with 15 range atacking you and defending the all in. Ok go and do that roach all in, o wait you just got zoned out with 10 forcefields and immortals with hardened shields are wrecking your stuff. Or hell, someone went up your ramp and put a forcefield on the ramp and you can't get there.
There also weren't QOL things like select all army hotkey, or select all idle workers.
"people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand"
nope. they played silly because they were cavemen banging together sticks and rocks for the first time.
everyone in 2010 GSL was just straight-up BAD
let me just pick a random VOD and pick it apart for you. here we are:
2010 Sony Ericsson StarCraft II Open Season 2, Grand Finals. Nestea vs. MKP, set 6 on Xel'Naga Caverns (the one that is supposedly suicide to expand on)
top tier bunker placement right there lmao. check out that sim-city at the top of the ramp! send me back in time. I will tell MKP that supply depots can be raised and lowered!
this is a fucking GSL grand finals man, and he can't even build his depots in the right place?
so yea, this is how MKP opened:
12 barracks at home no gas aggressive bunker at Nestea's ramp
I contend that even a modern-day platinum player would understand why this tactic is not going to work.
is the bunker a fake-out? if it is, it's obviously not worth it. whichever way you wanna go, this fake-out delays something important for the terran: either your factory or stim.
is MKP under the assumption that this bunker harass pays for itself? pulling 3 drones off the line in exchange for 25 minerals? to a 2010 caveman terran brain, yes, that might seem worth it, but it's not. MKP is horribly mistaken. soon Nestea will be researching zergling speed and MKP's got nothing in the pipe to deal with it. no hellions, no stim, nothing.
opening like this also leaves you vulnerable to zerg rushes.
MKP built his first depot near the mineral line. again, 2010 caveman thinking: "it costs extra mining time to send my SCV all the way to the ramp!" yea, like 10 minerals. totally worth it. having no wall-off against a 6-pool or 10-pool can literally end the game. it was never worth it. fast forward to 2012: the only terran still building his first depot at the mineral line vZ is GuMiho going gas first, and only very occasionally on certain maps that he seemed to think would benefit from an exceptionally early hellion.
MKP does indeed send his first marine across the map. what is he hoping to accomplish? to somehow slide it into a bunker that has no chance of finishing? or was he hoping to pick off a single drone? either way, this is absolutely brainless play. he could have used that marine to go hunting for Nestea's overlord instead. if he really wanted to get a marine in the bunker, or pick off some drones, he'd know to proxy his barracks and bring several SCVs.
send a 2023 GM back to play this game in MKP's place. they will proxy 2 barracks and bring 3 SCVs. they'll probably build the bunker elsewhere and build a gas behind it: just putting on some pressure, which for all Nestea knows could be a fully-committed all-in. pulling all the boys with a bunker rush was definitely a thing in WoL. our time-traveller would perhaps be aware of this and subvert expectations by building a factory at home. nobody, and I mean NOBODY was doing non-commital 2-raxx pressure against zerg back then -- and if they did, they certainly didn't build a gas behind it. they'd go straight into 4 barracks or 3CC before even starting a gas.
that's exactly what MKP does here: throws the CC down, sends his marine back home, and throws up an extra 3 barracks. 4 barracks total. techlab on the 1st barracks. no reactors... just awful. he goes for a combat shield timing, like you might expect Clem to do occasionally. a combat shield timing without a wall? well MKP, what happens if you lose all your marines? what then? you got no wall back at home buddy. there is no transitioning out of this if it goes poorly. that's how he loses this game.
for some inexplicable reason, known only to 2010 caveman terrans, he builds marauders to go with his combat shield push
he also brings 4 random SCVs to help with his combat shield push (was he planning to build MORE bunkers??)
a few possible explanations:
MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea is capable of at this point in the game MKP has no idea how strong his marines are against the zerglings Nestea is capable of having MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea actually decided to build
anyway, our boy Foxer gets completely overwhelmed and is still rallying marauders and marines on move-command into swarms of zerglings by the time Nestea has reached MKP's natural. he doesn't even throw down an emergency wall at his main ramp to stop the incoming counter-push. he still has SCVs mining in his natural, and pulls them with like 2 marines hoping that will be enough to hold on. he even pulls the MULEs to help defend
and you're seriously suggesting that it wasn't a matter of players being good enough? OK buddy
anyway, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. I played WoL. I remember the maps, the builds, the strats and the whole evolving meta (at least for terran)
I remember it took several GSL seasons before Mvp showed these halfwits how to safely expand with hellions and banshees. you don't need a natural choke to effectively defend with hellions. if you're worried about speedlings, you can just block your main ramp with the hellions, poke out, thin them out a bit, then back safe to your main ramp. totally doable on Xel'Naga Caverns. maybe you have to go 12 raxx 13 gas and do a factory expand, but it'd still be 100x better than the shit terrans were doing in 2010. thor expand = good? really? c'mon
you say I ignore the context. I say you are ignoring what 13 years can do to a mf. these players didn't know how to scout or defend rushes. they didn't know how to take small advantages with skirmishing or harass. they were absolutely not skilled enough to use hellion / banshee effectively. please go watch TheBestfOu control his banshees in Super Tournament 2011:
You're not wrong about MKP being braindead, but you're also taking literally the most braindead player to have ever played sc2 as an example, which is quite literally nitpicking. I could use ByuN's throw yesterday to show how stupid players are today as well.
And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
But see these is just the type of things I mean when I say people miss remember early sc2 or ignore the context.
Yes, people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand. All maps now let you fast expand and close up the ramp with buildings if needed, go take a look at Xel Naga caverns or metalopolis or steppes of war and tell me you could fast expand there. Also, bases literally had more minerals and gas than they do currently so there was less of a rush to expand.
For example with protoss, you couldn't dream to expand fast or you'd die to a 6 pool (not 12 pool, 6 pool). Or they could get into your base because some bases had 2 entrances, or one blocked by destructible rocks. Then some better maps were released and you could fast expand using your nexus as part of the wall, but why bother when you could 4 gate and win? and then some other maps were released with areas where you could block the naturals entrance, and thats when people started using FFE. And then later with the adepts and change to 12 workers economy it's when finally you could gate expand. It's not that players before weren't good enough to open in the lowground, it's because it was suicide.
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
That is true, but again, it's not that players back then weren't skilled enough to use them, it's because the game hadn't been figured out as much as it's now, and there were patches monthy or every couple of months that changed the game and oppened new strategies. It was not a matter of players not being good enough.
So I'll grant that we have more knowledge about the game now, but that doesn't mean more skill. And like poppi points out, a lot of that knowledge wouldn't work back then.
Sure, go back to wol and host and do a tank pressure with liberators and marines. O wait, liberators don't exist, tanks deal half the damage, and immortals have hardened shields. Ok then do this other all in cause you know protoss is vulnerable, oh shit Nexus overcharge with 15 range atacking you and defending the all in. Ok go and do that roach all in, o wait you just got zoned out with 10 forcefields and immortals with hardened shields are wrecking your stuff. Or hell, someone went up your ramp and put a forcefield on the ramp and you can't get there.
There also weren't QOL things like select all army hotkey, or select all idle workers.
"people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand"
nope. they played silly because they were cavemen banging together sticks and rocks for the first time.
everyone in 2010 GSL was just straight-up BAD
let me just pick a random VOD and pick it apart for you. here we are:
2010 Sony Ericsson StarCraft II Open Season 2, Grand Finals. Nestea vs. MKP, set 6 on Xel'Naga Caverns (the one that is supposedly suicide to expand on)
top tier bunker placement right there lmao. check out that sim-city at the top of the ramp! send me back in time. I will tell MKP that supply depots can be raised and lowered!
this is a fucking GSL grand finals man, and he can't even build his depots in the right place?
so yea, this is how MKP opened:
12 barracks at home no gas aggressive bunker at Nestea's ramp
I contend that even a modern-day platinum player would understand why this tactic is not going to work.
is the bunker a fake-out? if it is, it's obviously not worth it. whichever way you wanna go, this fake-out delays something important for the terran: either your factory or stim.
is MKP under the assumption that this bunker harass pays for itself? pulling 3 drones off the line in exchange for 25 minerals? to a 2010 caveman terran brain, yes, that might seem worth it, but it's not. MKP is horribly mistaken. soon Nestea will be researching zergling speed and MKP's got nothing in the pipe to deal with it. no hellions, no stim, nothing.
opening like this also leaves you vulnerable to zerg rushes.
MKP built his first depot near the mineral line. again, 2010 caveman thinking: "it costs extra mining time to send my SCV all the way to the ramp!" yea, like 10 minerals. totally worth it. having no wall-off against a 6-pool or 10-pool can literally end the game. it was never worth it. fast forward to 2012: the only terran still building his first depot at the mineral line vZ is GuMiho going gas first, and only very occasionally on certain maps that he seemed to think would benefit from an exceptionally early hellion.
MKP does indeed send his first marine across the map. what is he hoping to accomplish? to somehow slide it into a bunker that has no chance of finishing? or was he hoping to pick off a single drone? either way, this is absolutely brainless play. he could have used that marine to go hunting for Nestea's overlord instead. if he really wanted to get a marine in the bunker, or pick off some drones, he'd know to proxy his barracks and bring several SCVs.
send a 2023 GM back to play this game in MKP's place. they will proxy 2 barracks and bring 3 SCVs. they'll probably build the bunker elsewhere and build a gas behind it: just putting on some pressure, which for all Nestea knows could be a fully-committed all-in. pulling all the boys with a bunker rush was definitely a thing in WoL. our time-traveller would perhaps be aware of this and subvert expectations by building a factory at home. nobody, and I mean NOBODY was doing non-commital 2-raxx pressure against zerg back then -- and if they did, they certainly didn't build a gas behind it. they'd go straight into 4 barracks or 3CC before even starting a gas.
that's exactly what MKP does here: throws the CC down, sends his marine back home, and throws up an extra 3 barracks. 4 barracks total. techlab on the 1st barracks. no reactors... just awful. he goes for a combat shield timing, like you might expect Clem to do occasionally. a combat shield timing without a wall? well MKP, what happens if you lose all your marines? what then? you got no wall back at home buddy. there is no transitioning out of this if it goes poorly. that's how he loses this game.
for some inexplicable reason, known only to 2010 caveman terrans, he builds marauders to go with his combat shield push
he also brings 4 random SCVs to help with his combat shield push (was he planning to build MORE bunkers??)
a few possible explanations:
MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea is capable of at this point in the game MKP has no idea how strong his marines are against the zerglings Nestea is capable of having MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea actually decided to build
anyway, our boy Foxer gets completely overwhelmed and is still rallying marauders and marines on move-command into swarms of zerglings by the time Nestea has reached MKP's natural. he doesn't even throw down an emergency wall at his main ramp to stop the incoming counter-push. he still has SCVs mining in his natural, and pulls them with like 2 marines hoping that will be enough to hold on. he even pulls the MULEs to help defend
and you're seriously suggesting that it wasn't a matter of players being good enough? OK buddy
anyway, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. I played WoL. I remember the maps, the builds, the strats and the whole evolving meta (at least for terran)
I remember it took several GSL seasons before Mvp showed these halfwits how to safely expand with hellions and banshees. you don't need a natural choke to effectively defend with hellions. if you're worried about speedlings, you can just block your main ramp with the hellions, poke out, thin them out a bit, then back safe to your main ramp. totally doable on Xel'Naga Caverns. maybe you have to go 12 raxx 13 gas and do a factory expand, but it'd still be 100x better than the shit terrans were doing in 2010. thor expand = good? really? c'mon
you say I ignore the context. I say you are ignoring what 13 years can do to a mf. these players didn't know how to scout or defend rushes. they didn't know how to take small advantages with skirmishing or harass. they were absolutely not skilled enough to use hellion / banshee effectively. please go watch TheBestfOu control his banshees in Super Tournament 2011:
You're not wrong about MKP being braindead, but you're also taking literally the most braindead player to have ever played sc2 as an example, which is quite literally nitpicking. I could use ByuN's throw yesterday to show how stupid players are today as well.
most braindead player... GSL finals... most braindead player... GSL finals... finals... finals... is it starting to sink in yet? no? let me spell it out then: this was the best 2 players SC2 had to offer. I could win GSL if I had a time machine. hell, even you could win a GSL if you had a time machine
btw: honest to god, on my mother's grave, I genuinely picked that VOD at random. I hadn't even seen this series before because I don't care much for MKP. I just typed in "xel'naga caverns GSL" and that popped up. send me any other VOD from 2010 and I'll explain why it's bad. or better yet, why don't you pick a VOD from 2010 and explain why it's even remotely on par with GM-level 2023 skill? I feel like I'm being unfairly burdened disproving your nonsensical premises.
show me a VOD of a 2010 terran sniping speed banes, or controlling 3 different unit groups on different parts of the map, or hitting MULE timings perfectly until the 10 minute mark, or using ghosts to deal with lategame zerg like GM terrans do nowadays. you won't find one, because 2010 players were bad
On July 22 2023 08:57 Starcloud wrote: Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote: I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
Agreed. A diamond player from today would have stomped Life in this game
I am pretty sure random GMs of today on EU would never win even the earliest GSLs of WoL if they could go back in time and compete in that era.
bro... just stop. you clearly haven't even watched those 2010 GSLs
this is what terrans did in TvZ:
fast tank to defend against roaches! fast armory, then a thor to defend against mutas! all on just one base lol
these terrans only dared to float their natural CC out when they were ready with a thor
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
then once you're on 2 bases and have your 2 obligatory early game thors, the terran infrastructure looks like this:
2 factories pumping out tanks 2 barracks pumping 1 marauder, 2 marines 1 starport, no reactor, just building a single medivac at a time
if you sent a GM player back, he would just absolutely destroy everyone with build order mastery alone. that's before we even talk about race mechanics and multi-tasking, which was laughably bad in the first seasons of WoL. pro koreans didn't even have enough APM to harass mineral lines until 2011. 2010 was basically just sit in your base, build up an army, go for some random ass timing attack and hope to win
But see these is just the type of things I mean when I say people miss remember early sc2 or ignore the context.
Yes, people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand. All maps now let you fast expand and close up the ramp with buildings if needed, go take a look at Xel Naga caverns or metalopolis or steppes of war and tell me you could fast expand there. Also, bases literally had more minerals and gas than they do currently so there was less of a rush to expand.
For example with protoss, you couldn't dream to expand fast or you'd die to a 6 pool (not 12 pool, 6 pool). Or they could get into your base because some bases had 2 entrances, or one blocked by destructible rocks. Then some better maps were released and you could fast expand using your nexus as part of the wall, but why bother when you could 4 gate and win? and then some other maps were released with areas where you could block the naturals entrance, and thats when people started using FFE. And then later with the adepts and change to 12 workers economy it's when finally you could gate expand. It's not that players before weren't good enough to open in the lowground, it's because it was suicide.
absolutely no hellions or banshees. it took a whole year for terrans to figure out that hellion / banshee was good
That is true, but again, it's not that players back then weren't skilled enough to use them, it's because the game hadn't been figured out as much as it's now, and there were patches monthy or every couple of months that changed the game and oppened new strategies. It was not a matter of players not being good enough.
So I'll grant that we have more knowledge about the game now, but that doesn't mean more skill. And like poppi points out, a lot of that knowledge wouldn't work back then.
Sure, go back to wol and host and do a tank pressure with liberators and marines. O wait, liberators don't exist, tanks deal half the damage, and immortals have hardened shields. Ok then do this other all in cause you know protoss is vulnerable, oh shit Nexus overcharge with 15 range atacking you and defending the all in. Ok go and do that roach all in, o wait you just got zoned out with 10 forcefields and immortals with hardened shields are wrecking your stuff. Or hell, someone went up your ramp and put a forcefield on the ramp and you can't get there.
There also weren't QOL things like select all army hotkey, or select all idle workers.
"people played 1 base, because most maps were tiny and it would be suicide to fast expand"
nope. they played silly because they were cavemen banging together sticks and rocks for the first time.
everyone in 2010 GSL was just straight-up BAD
let me just pick a random VOD and pick it apart for you. here we are:
2010 Sony Ericsson StarCraft II Open Season 2, Grand Finals. Nestea vs. MKP, set 6 on Xel'Naga Caverns (the one that is supposedly suicide to expand on)
top tier bunker placement right there lmao. check out that sim-city at the top of the ramp! send me back in time. I will tell MKP that supply depots can be raised and lowered!
this is a fucking GSL grand finals man, and he can't even build his depots in the right place?
so yea, this is how MKP opened:
12 barracks at home no gas aggressive bunker at Nestea's ramp
I contend that even a modern-day platinum player would understand why this tactic is not going to work.
is the bunker a fake-out? if it is, it's obviously not worth it. whichever way you wanna go, this fake-out delays something important for the terran: either your factory or stim.
is MKP under the assumption that this bunker harass pays for itself? pulling 3 drones off the line in exchange for 25 minerals? to a 2010 caveman terran brain, yes, that might seem worth it, but it's not. MKP is horribly mistaken. soon Nestea will be researching zergling speed and MKP's got nothing in the pipe to deal with it. no hellions, no stim, nothing.
opening like this also leaves you vulnerable to zerg rushes.
MKP built his first depot near the mineral line. again, 2010 caveman thinking: "it costs extra mining time to send my SCV all the way to the ramp!" yea, like 10 minerals. totally worth it. having no wall-off against a 6-pool or 10-pool can literally end the game. it was never worth it. fast forward to 2012: the only terran still building his first depot at the mineral line vZ is GuMiho going gas first, and only very occasionally on certain maps that he seemed to think would benefit from an exceptionally early hellion.
MKP does indeed send his first marine across the map. what is he hoping to accomplish? to somehow slide it into a bunker that has no chance of finishing? or was he hoping to pick off a single drone? either way, this is absolutely brainless play. he could have used that marine to go hunting for Nestea's overlord instead. if he really wanted to get a marine in the bunker, or pick off some drones, he'd know to proxy his barracks and bring several SCVs.
send a 2023 GM back to play this game in MKP's place. they will proxy 2 barracks and bring 3 SCVs. they'll probably build the bunker elsewhere and build a gas behind it: just putting on some pressure, which for all Nestea knows could be a fully-committed all-in. pulling all the boys with a bunker rush was definitely a thing in WoL. our time-traveller would perhaps be aware of this and subvert expectations by building a factory at home. nobody, and I mean NOBODY was doing non-commital 2-raxx pressure against zerg back then -- and if they did, they certainly didn't build a gas behind it. they'd go straight into 4 barracks or 3CC before even starting a gas.
that's exactly what MKP does here: throws the CC down, sends his marine back home, and throws up an extra 3 barracks. 4 barracks total. techlab on the 1st barracks. no reactors... just awful. he goes for a combat shield timing, like you might expect Clem to do occasionally. a combat shield timing without a wall? well MKP, what happens if you lose all your marines? what then? you got no wall back at home buddy. there is no transitioning out of this if it goes poorly. that's how he loses this game.
for some inexplicable reason, known only to 2010 caveman terrans, he builds marauders to go with his combat shield push
he also brings 4 random SCVs to help with his combat shield push (was he planning to build MORE bunkers??)
a few possible explanations:
MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea is capable of at this point in the game MKP has no idea how strong his marines are against the zerglings Nestea is capable of having MKP has no idea how many zerglings Nestea actually decided to build
anyway, our boy Foxer gets completely overwhelmed and is still rallying marauders and marines on move-command into swarms of zerglings by the time Nestea has reached MKP's natural. he doesn't even throw down an emergency wall at his main ramp to stop the incoming counter-push. he still has SCVs mining in his natural, and pulls them with like 2 marines hoping that will be enough to hold on. he even pulls the MULEs to help defend
and you're seriously suggesting that it wasn't a matter of players being good enough? OK buddy
anyway, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. I played WoL. I remember the maps, the builds, the strats and the whole evolving meta (at least for terran)
I remember it took several GSL seasons before Mvp showed these halfwits how to safely expand with hellions and banshees. you don't need a natural choke to effectively defend with hellions. if you're worried about speedlings, you can just block your main ramp with the hellions, poke out, thin them out a bit, then back safe to your main ramp. totally doable on Xel'Naga Caverns. maybe you have to go 12 raxx 13 gas and do a factory expand, but it'd still be 100x better than the shit terrans were doing in 2010. thor expand = good? really? c'mon
you say I ignore the context. I say you are ignoring what 13 years can do to a mf. these players didn't know how to scout or defend rushes. they didn't know how to take small advantages with skirmishing or harass. they were absolutely not skilled enough to use hellion / banshee effectively. please go watch TheBestfOu control his banshees in Super Tournament 2011:
You're not wrong about MKP being braindead, but you're also taking literally the most braindead player to have ever played sc2 as an example, which is quite literally nitpicking. I could use ByuN's throw yesterday to show how stupid players are today as well.
most braindead player... GSL finals... most braindead player... GSL finals... finals... finals... is it starting to sink in yet? no? let me spell it out then: this was the best 2 players SC2 had to offer. I could win GSL if I had a time machine. hell, even you could win a GSL if you had a time machine
Well ByuN and Reynor are still out there getting far/winning tournaments as well.
On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote: And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL
he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament
and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu
look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years.
the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays
I think Fatboy Slim’s seminal record is suitably titled here, it’s not disparaging the players of that time, plenty who grew into great players to look at just how far off general understanding of most things in the game was back then.
Same would be true of BW, send a top amateur back far enough and they’ll wreck face.
RTS more than most genres is one of knowledge and skill, and the collective knowledge pool just builds and builds and is assimilated through the years
If there’s a skill gap between peak HoTS and now, and I think there’s good arguments in either direction, there’s a chasm between now and early WoL. It’s absolutely visible the second you watch a game, whereas what may exist between HoTs and now is more subtle and requires more deliberately.
I mean San (Man) Zenith blocked his bloomin Nexus with his forge but he turned out to be decent, but it’s the kind of blunder you saw with semi-regularity in those times.
MKP may indeed have been consistently brainless but he was consistently placing and was SC2’s first real Kong.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say our time traveller decent GM can take earlier GSLs.
Come later in WoL, I don’t think they do. Too many players with too much talent started to understand the game. It started to shape into something more recnognisibly modern, eroding that knowledge advantage.
I don’t think a decent GM can hang with an Mvp, or a Life, guys like Parting and Taeja were monsters who looked recognisably modern. Maybe at a stretch in terms of basic mechanics, but when you combo that with tactical decision-making on the fly.
That’s what separates top pros from the good, good from the mediocre and them from good amateurs.
I think Fatboy Slim’s seminal record is suitably titled here, it’s not disparaging the players of that time, plenty who grew into great players to look at just how far off general understanding of most things in the game was back then.
Same would be true of BW, send a top amateur back far enough and they’ll wreck face.
RTS more than most genres is one of knowledge and skill, and the collective knowledge pool just builds and builds and is assimilated through the years
If there’s a skill gap between peak HoTS and now, and I think there’s good arguments in either direction, there’s a chasm between now and early WoL. It’s absolutely visible the second you watch a game, whereas what may exist between HoTs and now is more subtle and requires more deliberately.
I mean San (Man) Zenith blocked his bloomin Nexus with his forge but he turned out to be decent, but it’s the kind of blunder you saw with semi-regularity in those times.
MKP may indeed have been consistently brainless but he was consistently placing and was SC2’s first real Kong.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say our time traveller decent GM can take earlier GSLs.
Come later in WoL, I don’t think they do. Too many players with too much talent started to understand the game. It started to shape into something more recnognisibly modern, eroding that knowledge advantage.
I don’t think a decent GM can hang with an Mvp, or a Life, guys like Parting and Taeja were monsters who looked recognisably modern. Maybe at a stretch in terms of basic mechanics, but when you combo that with tactical decision-making on the fly.
That’s what separates top pros from the good, good from the mediocre and them from good amateurs.
While I agree with the knowledge building in general, it's also worth noting that the game has changed so much that a lot of the knowledge players have earned wouldn't be applicable in earlier versions of the game. In early WoL, sure, you would have a massive knowledge gap in terms of basic unit interactions and micro (i.e. splitting vs Banes) but if a player from today would travel to like mid-2012 or later, I don't think he would be able to contribute much in terms of knowledge. Probably it would be the other way, that the time traveller would be forced to re-learn the game
On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote: And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL
he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament
and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu
look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years.
the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays
It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then
On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote: And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL
he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament
and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu
look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years.
the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays
It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then
hindsight is always 20/20. a random EU GM would blow peoples minds with skill that we nowadays take for granted. the game wasn't really a mess since it got figured out on more or less the same patch, with the same units. the only thing that significantly changed in WoL were the maps. it was a mess because it was new and nobody had anything figured out yet, the game knowledge and player experience is chiefly what brought about stability
to use your example, infestors were always strong, even at the end of WoL beta. zergs just didn't utilize them until the later days. there was no huge patch that suddenly brought about "patchzergs" like Vortix and Sniper. zergs just figured it out over time
On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote: And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL
he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament
and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu
look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years.
the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays
It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then
there was no huge patch that suddenly brought about "patchzergs"
On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote: And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL
he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament
and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu
look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years.
the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays
It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then
hindsight is always 20/20. a random EU GM would blow peoples minds with skill that we nowadays take for granted. the game wasn't really a mess since it got figured out on more or less the same patch, with the same units. the only thing that significantly changed in WoL were the maps. it was a mess because it was new and nobody had anything figured out yet, the game knowledge and player experience is chiefly what brought about stability
to use your example, infestors were always strong, even at the end of WoL beta. zergs just didn't utilize them until the later days. there was no huge patch that suddenly brought about "patchzergs" like Vortix and Sniper. zergs just figured it out over time
Ghosts were nerfed, queens were buffed, there were a bazillon bunker changes… not even talking about the thors that ThorZain got nerfed. Anyways, we can argue about GMs I guess, but current diamonds still are miles below early WoL in skill so the initial claim is bogus
On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote: And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL
he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament
and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu
look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years.
the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays
It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then
there was no huge patch that suddenly brought about "patchzergs"
I wonder why they were called patchzergs then
because ghosts got nerfed?
nah. patchzerg was a name for players who leaned heavily on the obnoxious turtle infestor playstyle. nobody said Life was a patchzerg because he had range. he always showed his skill with speedlings and micro at every opportunity. the likes of Sniper and Vortix would just a-move a 200/200 army of ultra / infestor / brood back home just to defend 1 drop with 8 marines in it.
if I may rephrase: there was no huge direct buff to infestors that suddenly made them OP. they were always strong. it was other sets of circumstances that made them OP: sensible maps being pushed into the map-pool, plus 2 years of player growth
On July 23 2023 19:02 Poopi wrote: And theBestfOu banshees were already considered as super bad back then. The fact that he finished 5th doesn’t mean much, herO played horrendously vs NightMare this very GSL
he was good enough to finish 5th place in a GSL tournament
and this isn't even super early days. this is late 2011. think about it. GSL players in 2011 actually lost games to theBestfOu. I would literally hang myself in shame if I lost a single unit to theBestfOu
look, if you can't see the very obvious errors that would literally end a game instantly in 2023, then I can't help you. either you don't play enough SC2 to understand how impactful these errors are, or you are looking at 2010 players through rose- tinted glasses. they were bad. all of them. even Mvp at his most glorious was just a modern-day Kas in terms of skill. doesn't detract from his glory -- it was the best SC2 had to offer at the time, and it was amazing to watch. you just have to acknowledge that the skill ceiling has been shattered over and over in the last 13 years.
the easiest way to see the difference in skill: compare a ffpov from the early days of WoL with a fppov from nowadays
It’s not the same game or a problem of skill though? If you send back in time a current random EU GM, they would not win GSL. They would lose to a random build since the game was a mess back then. Only if we are talking about stable WoL (like imba BL/infestors days) the random GM might have a shot. A current diamond player from now wouldn’t even qualify for the GSLs of back then
hindsight is always 20/20. a random EU GM would blow peoples minds with skill that we nowadays take for granted. the game wasn't really a mess since it got figured out on more or less the same patch, with the same units. the only thing that significantly changed in WoL were the maps. it was a mess because it was new and nobody had anything figured out yet, the game knowledge and player experience is chiefly what brought about stability
to use your example, infestors were always strong, even at the end of WoL beta. zergs just didn't utilize them until the later days. there was no huge patch that suddenly brought about "patchzergs" like Vortix and Sniper. zergs just figured it out over time
Ghosts were nerfed, queens were buffed, there were a bazillon bunker changes… not even talking about the thors that ThorZain got nerfed. Anyways, we can argue about GMs I guess, but current diamonds still are miles below early WoL in skill so the initial claim is bogus
EPT
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