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1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
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On July 21 2023 09:28 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 09:14 dysenterymd wrote:On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full. In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.) Arguing must be fun when you just make things up. 2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited? I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ.
Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5.
Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial.
Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup.
I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
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On July 21 2023 05:44 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 04:57 BelethielQT wrote:On July 21 2023 04:45 Poopi wrote:On July 21 2023 03:53 Balnazza wrote:On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess. Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that. I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you. The skill level hasn’t improved much across the extensions. It’s wildly different games that reward different skill sets (see how sOs who was great at HotS couldn’t do much in LotV). INnoVation lacks the world championships but barely any terrans won world championships so it’s hard to take that against him, it’s just how balance happened to be The clear top 2 is Rogue and Maru, then it’s INno, then it’s up for debate between Zest / mvp / Life / Serral depending on your criterion How can someone be this wrong About what exactly? Maru and Rogue being top 2 is kinda obvious, with INno being too 3 behind them also obvious
Obvious wrong
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On July 19 2023 04:34 BreakfastBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2023 03:49 Philippe wrote:On July 19 2023 03:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 02:16 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea I doubt he would, zerg was super op for a long time so he could have won some GSLs like Rogue, and now that zerg is just slightly stronger the pool isn’t as deep as before. He is also far better than both of them, and even in 2019 when Reynor and Dark were better he still had a shot at the ZvZ If Serral's peak lined up with one of the historic peaksof Patchzergs I could believe it, however, we will never know because he "doesn't care" enough to try to compete at the actual top level. All these salty people lining up to defend Serral... when even Serral wont defend Serral, cuz that would mean competing in GSL. Looks like sycophantic comedy to me. One doesn't become world champion by not beating Koreans. Doesn't need to go on Korean territory to prove it. EDIT : I don't especially care about who wins or not, I just won't hate on somebody for the sake of it.  2018 GSL vs. the World2019 GSL vs. the WorldOh, surprise. He didn't compete in GSL, at least he faced them on Korean soil. Hating on somebody for the sake of it? The video brought up a GOAT discussion, which I don't believe is Serral. But I guess because I don't agree with you, I'm a hater, right? Lol. At least you tried to argue with facts, until your ad hominem anyway. As for the tourneys you posted, which, for starters, are from 4 and 5 years ago... There was a qualifier and voting component, like for ex. Inno in one of those tourneys was voted in rather than qualifying iirc. And the whole thing is just a few rounds, there's about as much sc2 here as the neutered GSL from a season ago. So I don't discard it, but this doesn't mark Serral as the GOAT to me. I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT... Serral plays online (vs offline tourney) much more often than top KR players and beats up on ppl like Elazer all the time for free points, it's inflationary. Like seriously imagine Serral plays every GSL for a year and Maru moves to EU and plays every online cup and no GSL, whose Aligulac will rise and whose will fall? Lastly, Blizz patched this game tons of times, either their balancing was not competent, or they were giving in to illegitimate pressure from balance whiners. That isn't Serrals's fault at all, but it doesn't do good things for having a GOAT discussion one way or the other, unfortunately
Aligulac's Top 20 nemesis list:
Serral: Happy / Vortix / Jaedong / Forgg / Hyun
Maru: Serral / Soulkey / Parting / Jaedong / San
Cure: Dark / Inno / Byun / Rogue / Maru (vs Serral -12 games)
Dark: herO / Rogue / Byun / Maxpax / Arthur (vs Serral +1; vs Maru - 4 games). But in matches, Dark is -1 vs Serral.
Clem: Reynor / Serral / Maru / Cure / herO
Reynor: Serral / Maru / Penguin / sLivko / Narcotic
Byun: Maru / Inno / Serral / Parting / Trap
herO: Maru / sOs / Neeb / MKP/ Stats (vs Serral -3)
MaxPax: Clem / Heromarine / Cure / Serral / Reynor (vs Maru: -9)
Solar: Maru / Inno / Dark / herO / Serral
Showtime: Clem / Serral / Cure / Maxpax / Maru
Oliveira: Solar / Dark / Zest / Trap / Cure (vs Serral -21; vs Maru -21)
Ragnarok: Maru / Byun / Dark / Inno / herO (vs Serral -2)
Gumiho: Dark / herO / Solar / Byun / Zest (vs Serral -5; vs Maru -24)
Classic: Dark / Byun / Cure / Solar / Maru (vs Serral - 11)
Heromarine: Reynor & Serral / Clem / Solar / Showtime (vs Maru -11)
Bunny: Zest / Inno / Solar / Dark / Stats (vs Serral - 8;vs Maru -12)
Stats: Dark / SoO / Serral / Gumiho / Elazer (vs Maru -5)
Elazer: Clem / Serral / Nerchio / Uthermal / Solar (vs Maru loses for sure)
Lambo: Clem / Showtime / Heromarine / Serral / Reynor (vs Maru loses for sure)
Maru wins head to head historically against everyone... but for Serral =)
Serral wins ALL.
GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all.
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On July 21 2023 21:50 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2023 04:34 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 03:49 Philippe wrote:On July 19 2023 03:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 02:16 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea I doubt he would, zerg was super op for a long time so he could have won some GSLs like Rogue, and now that zerg is just slightly stronger the pool isn’t as deep as before. He is also far better than both of them, and even in 2019 when Reynor and Dark were better he still had a shot at the ZvZ If Serral's peak lined up with one of the historic peaksof Patchzergs I could believe it, however, we will never know because he "doesn't care" enough to try to compete at the actual top level. All these salty people lining up to defend Serral... when even Serral wont defend Serral, cuz that would mean competing in GSL. Looks like sycophantic comedy to me. One doesn't become world champion by not beating Koreans. Doesn't need to go on Korean territory to prove it. EDIT : I don't especially care about who wins or not, I just won't hate on somebody for the sake of it. 2018 GSL vs. the World2019 GSL vs. the WorldOh, surprise. He didn't compete in GSL, at least he faced them on Korean soil. Hating on somebody for the sake of it? The video brought up a GOAT discussion, which I don't believe is Serral. But I guess because I don't agree with you, I'm a hater, right? Lol. At least you tried to argue with facts, until your ad hominem anyway. As for the tourneys you posted, which, for starters, are from 4 and 5 years ago... There was a qualifier and voting component, like for ex. Inno in one of those tourneys was voted in rather than qualifying iirc. And the whole thing is just a few rounds, there's about as much sc2 here as the neutered GSL from a season ago. So I don't discard it, but this doesn't mark Serral as the GOAT to me. I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT... Serral plays online (vs offline tourney) much more often than top KR players and beats up on ppl like Elazer all the time for free points, it's inflationary. Like seriously imagine Serral plays every GSL for a year and Maru moves to EU and plays every online cup and no GSL, whose Aligulac will rise and whose will fall? Lastly, Blizz patched this game tons of times, either their balancing was not competent, or they were giving in to illegitimate pressure from balance whiners. That isn't Serrals's fault at all, but it doesn't do good things for having a GOAT discussion one way or the other, unfortunately GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all.
Does the same apply to Maru, and not having won a world championship?
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On July 21 2023 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 21:50 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 19 2023 04:34 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 03:49 Philippe wrote:On July 19 2023 03:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 02:16 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea I doubt he would, zerg was super op for a long time so he could have won some GSLs like Rogue, and now that zerg is just slightly stronger the pool isn’t as deep as before. He is also far better than both of them, and even in 2019 when Reynor and Dark were better he still had a shot at the ZvZ If Serral's peak lined up with one of the historic peaksof Patchzergs I could believe it, however, we will never know because he "doesn't care" enough to try to compete at the actual top level. All these salty people lining up to defend Serral... when even Serral wont defend Serral, cuz that would mean competing in GSL. Looks like sycophantic comedy to me. One doesn't become world champion by not beating Koreans. Doesn't need to go on Korean territory to prove it. EDIT : I don't especially care about who wins or not, I just won't hate on somebody for the sake of it. 2018 GSL vs. the World2019 GSL vs. the WorldOh, surprise. He didn't compete in GSL, at least he faced them on Korean soil. Hating on somebody for the sake of it? The video brought up a GOAT discussion, which I don't believe is Serral. But I guess because I don't agree with you, I'm a hater, right? Lol. At least you tried to argue with facts, until your ad hominem anyway. As for the tourneys you posted, which, for starters, are from 4 and 5 years ago... There was a qualifier and voting component, like for ex. Inno in one of those tourneys was voted in rather than qualifying iirc. And the whole thing is just a few rounds, there's about as much sc2 here as the neutered GSL from a season ago. So I don't discard it, but this doesn't mark Serral as the GOAT to me. I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT... Serral plays online (vs offline tourney) much more often than top KR players and beats up on ppl like Elazer all the time for free points, it's inflationary. Like seriously imagine Serral plays every GSL for a year and Maru moves to EU and plays every online cup and no GSL, whose Aligulac will rise and whose will fall? Lastly, Blizz patched this game tons of times, either their balancing was not competent, or they were giving in to illegitimate pressure from balance whiners. That isn't Serrals's fault at all, but it doesn't do good things for having a GOAT discussion one way or the other, unfortunately GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all. Does the same apply to Maru, and not having won a world championship?
I just pulled the statistics to show that Serral is proved against the Koreans, same as Maru. Just slightly better, cus of their head to head encounters. But as to championships, i still think Serral is ahead. The big ones Serral has won, Maru was in them (world championships, GSL vs The World); The reverse is not true. We cant say if Maru would have the same amount of GSL if Serral had participated in all of them.
But one thing is true, in head to head statistics, there isn't a single player today who can say hes better than Serral. And that aint true for Maru.
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On July 21 2023 23:00 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On July 21 2023 21:50 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 19 2023 04:34 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 03:49 Philippe wrote:On July 19 2023 03:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 02:16 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea I doubt he would, zerg was super op for a long time so he could have won some GSLs like Rogue, and now that zerg is just slightly stronger the pool isn’t as deep as before. He is also far better than both of them, and even in 2019 when Reynor and Dark were better he still had a shot at the ZvZ If Serral's peak lined up with one of the historic peaksof Patchzergs I could believe it, however, we will never know because he "doesn't care" enough to try to compete at the actual top level. All these salty people lining up to defend Serral... when even Serral wont defend Serral, cuz that would mean competing in GSL. Looks like sycophantic comedy to me. One doesn't become world champion by not beating Koreans. Doesn't need to go on Korean territory to prove it. EDIT : I don't especially care about who wins or not, I just won't hate on somebody for the sake of it. 2018 GSL vs. the World2019 GSL vs. the WorldOh, surprise. He didn't compete in GSL, at least he faced them on Korean soil. Hating on somebody for the sake of it? The video brought up a GOAT discussion, which I don't believe is Serral. But I guess because I don't agree with you, I'm a hater, right? Lol. At least you tried to argue with facts, until your ad hominem anyway. As for the tourneys you posted, which, for starters, are from 4 and 5 years ago... There was a qualifier and voting component, like for ex. Inno in one of those tourneys was voted in rather than qualifying iirc. And the whole thing is just a few rounds, there's about as much sc2 here as the neutered GSL from a season ago. So I don't discard it, but this doesn't mark Serral as the GOAT to me. I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT... Serral plays online (vs offline tourney) much more often than top KR players and beats up on ppl like Elazer all the time for free points, it's inflationary. Like seriously imagine Serral plays every GSL for a year and Maru moves to EU and plays every online cup and no GSL, whose Aligulac will rise and whose will fall? Lastly, Blizz patched this game tons of times, either their balancing was not competent, or they were giving in to illegitimate pressure from balance whiners. That isn't Serrals's fault at all, but it doesn't do good things for having a GOAT discussion one way or the other, unfortunately GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all. Does the same apply to Maru, and not having won a world championship? I just pulled the statistics to show that Serral is proved against the Koreans, same as Maru. Just slightly better, cus of their head to head encounters. But as to championships, i still think Serral is ahead. The big ones Serral has won, Maru was in them (world championships, GSL vs The World); The reverse is not true. We cant say if Maru would have the same amount of GSL if Serral had participated in all of them. But one thing is true, in head to head statistics, there isn't a single player today who can say hes better than Serral. And that aint true for Maru.
Well, he won WESG, DH Last Chance, King of battles x2, ESL season finals and Asus Rog with Serral participating and he also had 5 years of results before Serral was even relevant winning 2 Starleagues during the Kespa era which had more stacked brackets than anything Serral has ever seen.
If you look just at sc2 from 2018 onwards I can see an argument for Serral but sc2 didn't start in 2018.
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On July 21 2023 23:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 23:00 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 21 2023 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On July 21 2023 21:50 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 19 2023 04:34 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 03:49 Philippe wrote:On July 19 2023 03:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 02:16 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea I doubt he would, zerg was super op for a long time so he could have won some GSLs like Rogue, and now that zerg is just slightly stronger the pool isn’t as deep as before. He is also far better than both of them, and even in 2019 when Reynor and Dark were better he still had a shot at the ZvZ If Serral's peak lined up with one of the historic peaksof Patchzergs I could believe it, however, we will never know because he "doesn't care" enough to try to compete at the actual top level. All these salty people lining up to defend Serral... when even Serral wont defend Serral, cuz that would mean competing in GSL. Looks like sycophantic comedy to me. One doesn't become world champion by not beating Koreans. Doesn't need to go on Korean territory to prove it. EDIT : I don't especially care about who wins or not, I just won't hate on somebody for the sake of it. 2018 GSL vs. the World2019 GSL vs. the WorldOh, surprise. He didn't compete in GSL, at least he faced them on Korean soil. Hating on somebody for the sake of it? The video brought up a GOAT discussion, which I don't believe is Serral. But I guess because I don't agree with you, I'm a hater, right? Lol. At least you tried to argue with facts, until your ad hominem anyway. As for the tourneys you posted, which, for starters, are from 4 and 5 years ago... There was a qualifier and voting component, like for ex. Inno in one of those tourneys was voted in rather than qualifying iirc. And the whole thing is just a few rounds, there's about as much sc2 here as the neutered GSL from a season ago. So I don't discard it, but this doesn't mark Serral as the GOAT to me. I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT... Serral plays online (vs offline tourney) much more often than top KR players and beats up on ppl like Elazer all the time for free points, it's inflationary. Like seriously imagine Serral plays every GSL for a year and Maru moves to EU and plays every online cup and no GSL, whose Aligulac will rise and whose will fall? Lastly, Blizz patched this game tons of times, either their balancing was not competent, or they were giving in to illegitimate pressure from balance whiners. That isn't Serrals's fault at all, but it doesn't do good things for having a GOAT discussion one way or the other, unfortunately GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all. Does the same apply to Maru, and not having won a world championship? I just pulled the statistics to show that Serral is proved against the Koreans, same as Maru. Just slightly better, cus of their head to head encounters. But as to championships, i still think Serral is ahead. The big ones Serral has won, Maru was in them (world championships, GSL vs The World); The reverse is not true. We cant say if Maru would have the same amount of GSL if Serral had participated in all of them. But one thing is true, in head to head statistics, there isn't a single player today who can say hes better than Serral. And that aint true for Maru. Well, he won WESG, DH Last Chance, King of battles x2, ESL season finals and Asus Rog with Serral participating and he also had 5 years of results before Serral was even relevant winning 2 Starleagues during the Kespa era which had more stacked brackets than anything Serral has ever seen. If you look just at sc2 from 2018 onwards I can see an argument for Serral but sc2 didn't start in 2018.
Kespa era was ~90% canon fodder and at the top were always the same names. Just like today and serral beat most of them
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On July 21 2023 23:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 23:00 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 21 2023 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On July 21 2023 21:50 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 19 2023 04:34 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 03:49 Philippe wrote:On July 19 2023 03:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 02:16 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea I doubt he would, zerg was super op for a long time so he could have won some GSLs like Rogue, and now that zerg is just slightly stronger the pool isn’t as deep as before. He is also far better than both of them, and even in 2019 when Reynor and Dark were better he still had a shot at the ZvZ If Serral's peak lined up with one of the historic peaksof Patchzergs I could believe it, however, we will never know because he "doesn't care" enough to try to compete at the actual top level. All these salty people lining up to defend Serral... when even Serral wont defend Serral, cuz that would mean competing in GSL. Looks like sycophantic comedy to me. One doesn't become world champion by not beating Koreans. Doesn't need to go on Korean territory to prove it. EDIT : I don't especially care about who wins or not, I just won't hate on somebody for the sake of it. 2018 GSL vs. the World2019 GSL vs. the WorldOh, surprise. He didn't compete in GSL, at least he faced them on Korean soil. Hating on somebody for the sake of it? The video brought up a GOAT discussion, which I don't believe is Serral. But I guess because I don't agree with you, I'm a hater, right? Lol. At least you tried to argue with facts, until your ad hominem anyway. As for the tourneys you posted, which, for starters, are from 4 and 5 years ago... There was a qualifier and voting component, like for ex. Inno in one of those tourneys was voted in rather than qualifying iirc. And the whole thing is just a few rounds, there's about as much sc2 here as the neutered GSL from a season ago. So I don't discard it, but this doesn't mark Serral as the GOAT to me. I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT... Serral plays online (vs offline tourney) much more often than top KR players and beats up on ppl like Elazer all the time for free points, it's inflationary. Like seriously imagine Serral plays every GSL for a year and Maru moves to EU and plays every online cup and no GSL, whose Aligulac will rise and whose will fall? Lastly, Blizz patched this game tons of times, either their balancing was not competent, or they were giving in to illegitimate pressure from balance whiners. That isn't Serrals's fault at all, but it doesn't do good things for having a GOAT discussion one way or the other, unfortunately GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all. Does the same apply to Maru, and not having won a world championship? I just pulled the statistics to show that Serral is proved against the Koreans, same as Maru. Just slightly better, cus of their head to head encounters. But as to championships, i still think Serral is ahead. The big ones Serral has won, Maru was in them (world championships, GSL vs The World); The reverse is not true. We cant say if Maru would have the same amount of GSL if Serral had participated in all of them. But one thing is true, in head to head statistics, there isn't a single player today who can say hes better than Serral. And that aint true for Maru. Well, he won WESG, DH Last Chance, King of battles x2, ESL season finals and Asus Rog with Serral participating and he also had 5 years of results before Serral was even relevant winning 2 Starleagues during the Kespa era which had more stacked brackets than anything Serral has ever seen. If you look just at sc2 from 2018 onwards I can see an argument for Serral but sc2 didn't start in 2018.
I can only see those two fighting for GOAT title. Rogue was way too volatile, and doesnt have the same absurd number of titles like Serral and Maru. MvP was king for a couple of years, and in a period where the skill ceiling was still being tested, i guess.
The great ones today are the likes of Maru, Serral, Reynor, Clem... They play the game since 10-12 years old. The scene might not look competitive as it once looked, but in part i think its because to catch the top players, you need, at the very least, some 5-10 years of hard practice (and also be somewhat more naturally skilled than others). Back in 2011-2012, it just wasnt true. Broodwar aint the same game.
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On July 21 2023 23:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 23:00 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 21 2023 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On July 21 2023 21:50 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 19 2023 04:34 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 03:49 Philippe wrote:On July 19 2023 03:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 02:16 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea I doubt he would, zerg was super op for a long time so he could have won some GSLs like Rogue, and now that zerg is just slightly stronger the pool isn’t as deep as before. He is also far better than both of them, and even in 2019 when Reynor and Dark were better he still had a shot at the ZvZ If Serral's peak lined up with one of the historic peaksof Patchzergs I could believe it, however, we will never know because he "doesn't care" enough to try to compete at the actual top level. All these salty people lining up to defend Serral... when even Serral wont defend Serral, cuz that would mean competing in GSL. Looks like sycophantic comedy to me. One doesn't become world champion by not beating Koreans. Doesn't need to go on Korean territory to prove it. EDIT : I don't especially care about who wins or not, I just won't hate on somebody for the sake of it. 2018 GSL vs. the World2019 GSL vs. the WorldOh, surprise. He didn't compete in GSL, at least he faced them on Korean soil. Hating on somebody for the sake of it? The video brought up a GOAT discussion, which I don't believe is Serral. But I guess because I don't agree with you, I'm a hater, right? Lol. At least you tried to argue with facts, until your ad hominem anyway. As for the tourneys you posted, which, for starters, are from 4 and 5 years ago... There was a qualifier and voting component, like for ex. Inno in one of those tourneys was voted in rather than qualifying iirc. And the whole thing is just a few rounds, there's about as much sc2 here as the neutered GSL from a season ago. So I don't discard it, but this doesn't mark Serral as the GOAT to me. I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT... Serral plays online (vs offline tourney) much more often than top KR players and beats up on ppl like Elazer all the time for free points, it's inflationary. Like seriously imagine Serral plays every GSL for a year and Maru moves to EU and plays every online cup and no GSL, whose Aligulac will rise and whose will fall? Lastly, Blizz patched this game tons of times, either their balancing was not competent, or they were giving in to illegitimate pressure from balance whiners. That isn't Serrals's fault at all, but it doesn't do good things for having a GOAT discussion one way or the other, unfortunately GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all. Does the same apply to Maru, and not having won a world championship? I just pulled the statistics to show that Serral is proved against the Koreans, same as Maru. Just slightly better, cus of their head to head encounters. But as to championships, i still think Serral is ahead. The big ones Serral has won, Maru was in them (world championships, GSL vs The World); The reverse is not true. We cant say if Maru would have the same amount of GSL if Serral had participated in all of them. But one thing is true, in head to head statistics, there isn't a single player today who can say hes better than Serral. And that aint true for Maru. Well, he won WESG, DH Last Chance, King of battles x2, ESL season finals and Asus Rog with Serral participating and he also had 5 years of results before Serral was even relevant winning 2 Starleagues during the Kespa era which had more stacked brackets than anything Serral has ever seen. If you look just at sc2 from 2018 onwards I can see an argument for Serral but sc2 didn't start in 2018.
That's like saying Flash can't be the GOAT in broodwar since it came out in 1998, not 2008.
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On July 22 2023 02:06 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 23:08 Charoisaur wrote:On July 21 2023 23:00 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 21 2023 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On July 21 2023 21:50 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:On July 19 2023 04:34 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 03:49 Philippe wrote:On July 19 2023 03:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On July 19 2023 02:16 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea I doubt he would, zerg was super op for a long time so he could have won some GSLs like Rogue, and now that zerg is just slightly stronger the pool isn’t as deep as before. He is also far better than both of them, and even in 2019 when Reynor and Dark were better he still had a shot at the ZvZ If Serral's peak lined up with one of the historic peaksof Patchzergs I could believe it, however, we will never know because he "doesn't care" enough to try to compete at the actual top level. All these salty people lining up to defend Serral... when even Serral wont defend Serral, cuz that would mean competing in GSL. Looks like sycophantic comedy to me. One doesn't become world champion by not beating Koreans. Doesn't need to go on Korean territory to prove it. EDIT : I don't especially care about who wins or not, I just won't hate on somebody for the sake of it. 2018 GSL vs. the World2019 GSL vs. the WorldOh, surprise. He didn't compete in GSL, at least he faced them on Korean soil. Hating on somebody for the sake of it? The video brought up a GOAT discussion, which I don't believe is Serral. But I guess because I don't agree with you, I'm a hater, right? Lol. At least you tried to argue with facts, until your ad hominem anyway. As for the tourneys you posted, which, for starters, are from 4 and 5 years ago... There was a qualifier and voting component, like for ex. Inno in one of those tourneys was voted in rather than qualifying iirc. And the whole thing is just a few rounds, there's about as much sc2 here as the neutered GSL from a season ago. So I don't discard it, but this doesn't mark Serral as the GOAT to me. I never said Serral was some chobo either, but "alternative universe Serral who grew up in KR w/ the same skills" would be regarded at about Dark or Solar level or something like that, not sc2 GOAT... Serral plays online (vs offline tourney) much more often than top KR players and beats up on ppl like Elazer all the time for free points, it's inflationary. Like seriously imagine Serral plays every GSL for a year and Maru moves to EU and plays every online cup and no GSL, whose Aligulac will rise and whose will fall? Lastly, Blizz patched this game tons of times, either their balancing was not competent, or they were giving in to illegitimate pressure from balance whiners. That isn't Serrals's fault at all, but it doesn't do good things for having a GOAT discussion one way or the other, unfortunately GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all. Does the same apply to Maru, and not having won a world championship? I just pulled the statistics to show that Serral is proved against the Koreans, same as Maru. Just slightly better, cus of their head to head encounters. But as to championships, i still think Serral is ahead. The big ones Serral has won, Maru was in them (world championships, GSL vs The World); The reverse is not true. We cant say if Maru would have the same amount of GSL if Serral had participated in all of them. But one thing is true, in head to head statistics, there isn't a single player today who can say hes better than Serral. And that aint true for Maru. Well, he won WESG, DH Last Chance, King of battles x2, ESL season finals and Asus Rog with Serral participating and he also had 5 years of results before Serral was even relevant winning 2 Starleagues during the Kespa era which had more stacked brackets than anything Serral has ever seen. If you look just at sc2 from 2018 onwards I can see an argument for Serral but sc2 didn't start in 2018. That's like saying Flash can't be the GOAT in broodwar since it came out in 1998, not 2008.
The difference is that Flash dominated broodwar during its competitive peak; Serral kinda dominated (not nearly as hard as Flash) sc2 when the scene had already declined and the number of active championship level players he had to compete against was way lower.
And I didn't say Serral can't be the Goat - I said I see Maru's achievements solidly above his, especially considering the 5 years of results he had when Serral wasn't relevant yet, which were during the competitive peak
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Mexico2170 Posts
I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
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On July 19 2023 03:00 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2023 02:12 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Cuz he'd meet the same fate as Special and Astrea nice bait. the greatest player of all time would obviously do well.
Of course he would. He's already won 6 GSLs.
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On July 21 2023 19:17 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 09:28 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 09:14 dysenterymd wrote:On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full. In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.) Arguing must be fun when you just make things up. 2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited? I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ. Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup. I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder?
How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points.
How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world.
ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol.
But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs.
And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
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United States1850 Posts
On July 22 2023 08:07 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2023 19:17 Balnazza wrote:On July 21 2023 09:28 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 09:14 dysenterymd wrote:On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full. In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.) Arguing must be fun when you just make things up. 2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited? I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ. Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup. I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder? How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs. And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you.
It's kinda funny that we live in a world where most pros (including Koreans) say Serral is the BEST(I'm using best because this has nothing to do with a goat argument. We're just talking about pure talent and skill) player in the world, but some random forum user thinks he'd get knocked out in the Round of 32 of Code S.
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On July 22 2023 08:24 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2023 08:07 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 19:17 Balnazza wrote:On July 21 2023 09:28 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 09:14 dysenterymd wrote:On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full. In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.) Arguing must be fun when you just make things up. 2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited? I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ. Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup. I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder? How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs. And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you. It's kinda funny that we live in a world where most pros (including Koreans) say Serral is the BEST(I'm using best because this has nothing to do with a goat argument. We're just talking about pure talent and skill) player in the world, but some random forum user thinks he'd get knocked out in the Round of 32 of Code S.
Can you not read? I think he might have even got knocked out of the qualifiers 
Not only that, but Koreans are so used to making controversial statements about their opponents right? They'd never be nice just to be nice?
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Great discussion in this thread.
The arguments for Serral/Maru being GOAT are both quite tenable. Personally, I favor Maru.
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Man, what a shitshow has this thread again been. And so much false assumptions and information over all. Few corrections;
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote:
I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
What in earth does that have to do with skill ? Have you actually looked games around 2010 - 2015 ? Even todays diamond player would do well in those games. You can always talk about relative skill, but if you look at the gameplay, micro etc, its clear that the skill-level has grown dramatically since then. Its not even close really.
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote:
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
This cant be compared to real sports. And comparing single athletes skill versus the scene as whole is not a good comparison at all. Lets look at 100m sprint, ice-hockey, football, table-tennis, etc.....If you look at those sports for example in 1990-era, or even as close as the start of 2000 century, you are looking completely different games when compared to the situation today. Thats because sports and athletes evolve. If you trained same way as you would have trained in 1998, you would never get to the top. Starcraft is a bit different since it isnt a ""real"" sport, but the scene and gameplay have evolved a lot. Thats just a fact.
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote:
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
Thats not true. Look the answer above. The scene is not evolving as fast as it did before, and the competition isnt as fierce and wide as it was back then, but it still has nothing to do with skill versus todays players.
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote:
There's also the aspect of balance.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
Training is of course very different now. But is it purely for the worse ? Is the sweat-shop training with 10 people in a little room doing 12h a day better than 4-5h a day with breaks, physical training, mental training etc. ? I dont know. But again, it doesnt affect to the pure skill-level of players of today versus then. Gameplay is ten times better and more skill demanding today.
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote:
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
What "external factors" do you mean ? That he has like 70% winrate overall vs. the best koreans ? Or that he is supposed to win every single tournament he goes in or it is deemed as a "failure" to him ? Or that almost every pro player name him one of the greatest players and the milestone to compare to ? Maru is propably number 3 in the Goat discussion.
On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote:
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
This is the only good argument you actually make. But even that is only partially true. Like you said, game is a lot faster and demanding now than it was before. The micro and even macro were partly terrible at the early years of Starcraft 2. Its not because the rewarding factor alone, it was also because of the general skill level was lower.
On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:
We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL.
He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event.
Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full.
Altough good trolling can cheer up the day, bad ones are just boring and gather up pointless debates because of straight up false "facts" or even just pure lies. Mods, hello ?
On July 21 2023 21:50 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:
Maru wins head to head historically against everyone... but for Serral =)
Serral wins ALL.
GSL argument is bullshit. Serral has faced them all, time after time, and won them all.
This is basically the whole thing in a nutshell. Good job !
1. Serral
2. Rogue
3. Maru
4. Innovation
5. Zest
You´re welcome.
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On July 22 2023 08:24 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2023 08:07 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 19:17 Balnazza wrote:On July 21 2023 09:28 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 09:14 dysenterymd wrote:On July 21 2023 08:48 NoobSkills wrote:On July 21 2023 06:48 WombaT wrote:On July 21 2023 06:38 NoobSkills wrote:On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one Oh Korean progamers saying a nice generic compliment about a foreign player? Not even to say that he wasn't good, but his achievements were weekend tournaments and beating up weak players in foreign tournaments. His seeding almost always had him facing more foreigners until he suddenly popped into the finals. Just lucky seeding though I guess, because Acti-Blizz would never rig an event to secure larger viewership. He still won at the end of the day, but would he have if he was in the GSL? I don't think so not in the slightest. For sure he would have been studied and dissected and sniped out of every GSL, probably not early on because he was more talented than the bottom tier of GSL players, but 3 rounds of facing opponents with the skill to match and who have prepared very well to counter his typical strategies? Perhaps he still eventually snipes out a GSL, but then he isn't cruising through all those foreign WCS events and probably still picks up the same amount of weekend tournaments. So then where is he at? Well he is on the list of top 20. What’s to dissect? Players have had plenty of time He’s got a winning record against basically every notable player on the planet, including Maru who for my money is probably the GOAT. Note I don’t think this makes him better necessarily He doesn’t have some gimmick, he’s just rock fucking solid and generally wins. Everyone knows how Serral likes to play ideally, he’s been stomping for years now. We'll never know becuase he didn't actually play in the GSL. He played the the foreign version and beat up weak players to obtain points and preferential seeding into the tournament. Then somehow his bracket usually had him facing those same weaker players, in a weekend marathon event. Not that I can blame him, if the money is just as good to face easier opponents then you should probably just do that, but that doesn't get you into the goat debate, just keeps you bank account full. In 2018 Serral won blizzcon by beating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats. In 2022 Serral had to beat Dark, Rogue, Reynor, and Maru to win Katowice (every other serious title contender.) Arguing must be fun when you just make things up. 2018 - Look at the particpants overall. Won some ZvZ's and got to face stats in the finals. 2022 again look who was there. Picks 2 tournaments over 4 years to make their point. Can we look at the talent pool he had to face in the WCS to get the invite to those tournaments? It's full of actual contenders, right? Oh and you say the qualifiers were region based, so a weak region can get a bunch of fluff to be invited? I'm sure you'd dominate your local middle school's basketball team too, and I'm simply shocked nobody compares you to MJ. Serral won the most important tournament in 2018 by beating only koreans (mind you: Only the Top 8 koreans of that year were present). He won against against the #3, #4, #6, #7 and #8 seed, so only missing #1, #2, and #5. Number 1 (Maru) was bombed out by the korean 8th seed sOs 3-0 (Serral won 2-0 against sOs), and Number 2 (Classic) didn't even make it out of groups, losing to SpeCial. Serral did all that while only losing 3 maps, even though he had to play two of the three best Zergs in Korea of all time and ZvZ is widely considered his "worst" matchup. I know you are trolling, but can't you try atleast a little bit harder? How did he get invites into these tournaments? Oh he had to go through the deep foreign player pool and stack points. How did the koreans have to get there? Oh by knocking out other top talent in the world. ZvZ was not considered his worst matchup at the time lol. But crazily enough he did manage to completely dodge the qualifiers for the GSL and the GSL itself, no free wins in that setup, but hey at least he farmed WCS points off some noobs. And I get it financially it makes zero sense to go get booted out in the qualifiers or RO32 when you can farm an easy first place facing lesser players and then get preferential seeding into other events based off those easy wins. Especially when the prize pools are basically the same, and you get to stay local, and play in front of an audience that knows you. It's kinda funny that we live in a world where most pros (including Koreans) say Serral is the BEST(I'm using best because this has nothing to do with a goat argument. We're just talking about pure talent and skill) player in the world, but some random forum user thinks he'd get knocked out in the Round of 32 of Code S.
To be fair, the argument being used against Maru has been he never does well outside of KR or in online tournament and people still saying that despite him making multiple Ro4/Final at those events. I know he still need to win a world title in the end and all, but he has been pretty great in the last 2-3 years of SC2, and its not like Serral ALWAYS does well neither. People just like to point out when Serral win a couple events and call him GOAT/ the best player in the world, but stay silent when he doesnt do well (bounced in DH EU by HM after his world title, lost in the group stage of Afreeca Cup last year, lost to Clem/Rogue in multiple events a couple years back...) and act like those things never happen.
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On July 22 2023 04:55 [Phantom] wrote:
I've heard some people saying that the level of skill before wasn't as high as it's now. Even Artosis says that. But I think they are unfortunately wrong.
They would be right if the scene was growing consistently, but the Starcraft 2 scene has had it's ups and downs.
KesPa arriving, KeSPA leaving, blizzard pulling suppport, pro gamers retiring, pro gamers getting old etc, the game losing popularity to LoL etc.
And then just see other athletes in real sports, they don't just get better and better. They have slumps, sometimes they start playing worse only to play better a year later, then they start getting old and declining.
And more improtantly the scene has also declined. Less people playing means less competition means less skill.
There's also the aspect of balance.
Then there's the aspect of team houses and practice culture. That was a big part of Koreans edge, and then Kespa left and everything went to shit. Koreans also started joining foreigner teams that would give them more money and more relaxed schedules, and they slowly deteriorated.
You can't say, don't even try to say it, that koreans are better now with their shitty training schedule than they were in Kespa teeam houses with 1 head coach, 3 extra dedicated jr coaches and rigid and well constructed practice schedules.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Serral would have won as much as he did if Koreans still had Kespa style team houses. And funnily enough Serral rise came alongside the rise of Zerg as the strongest race.
That being said, Maru being the best is kind of revisionist as well. The only reason people say he is the best is because he has been the most consistent player we've had, and he was indeed the best for a short period. But for most of his time playing (you can verify this by looking at the of TL power rankings) he was highly regarded but never the best.
Maru played when Nestea, MC, MMA and MVP were considered the best. Maru played when Life was the best. Maru played when sOs was the best. Maru played when Innovation was the best. But Maru was never the best in those times. It's only when we look back and noticed just how dam consistent the guy has been through his career, certainly the most consistent top player of all time, and when of course he won his OSL and the GSLs and he has the best in that perioid, when we retroactively say he is the best.
Overall, I think Maru has the more impressive career, so if there is a GOAT it should be him, as Serral had too many external factors go his way (while being an excelent player himself of course).
But honestly I think sc2 doesn't have a GOAT.
BW can have a GOAT because it was the same game for 10 years. Starcraft 2 has had 2 expantions and tons of balance changes, it's a really different game from 10 years ago. BW has evolved of course, but there hasn't been any massive balance or design changes.
In terms of design and gameplay, current legacy of the void might as well be sc3 compared to early WoL.
I guess that's why some people say that players were worse in WoL or HotS. They go back and see "oh look at that terrible creep spread" but they don't realize creep has been buffed A LOT over the years, and queens themselves were buffed as well, improving transfuse, increasing their range etc. If they didn't spread creep as much as current pros is not because they couldn't mechanically do it, it's because it was as rewarding as it's now. Same thing with using ghost or micro like warp prism micro was much harder back then because warp prism pickup didn't have that big range it has now.
Lil bro really thinks teamhouses back then were good for the players. Classic delusional phantom
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EPT
