|
On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5
*Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not*
"lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5"
I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind.
|
On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind.
I don't think Dark or Reynor are top 5 contenders. Especially not Reynor, he just doesn't have enough wins at offline tournaments with Koreans. Inno, Serral, Rogue, and Maru (in some order) are easy top 4, fifth is very debatable - one of MVP, Zest, sOs, or Life would be my pick (MVP could be excluded depending on how much you want to value early SC2 achievements), though I can see an argument for other people too.
|
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On July 20 2023 01:57 Kreuger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 00:58 WombaT wrote:
What is this Gamers 8 thing I so frequently see mentioned?
Rogue for me, definitely up there. If his Starleague breakthroughs had come a year or two earlier, with the same resume he’d have a much stronger case for GOAThood for me.
Not disparaging Rogue but he had a pretty similar resume to $o$, some big WCs and a consistently good player, good Proleague record, but he only started to hoover up Code S titles when the scene was clearly not as cutthroat.
Just too many variables IMO to have any kind of definitive GOAT https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/_Gamers8/2023
Oh great so Saudi Arabia aren’t just throwing money at footballl… Thanks for the info
Hey I’m sure it’ll be a swell tournament but can’t say I’ll care that much either. They could have thrown money at the GSL and taken a title sponsor role and that’d be much better for the health of the overall scene.
On July 20 2023 02:18 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind. I don't think Dark or Reynor are top 5 contenders. Especially not Reynor, he just doesn't have enough wins at offline tournaments with Koreans. Inno, Serral, Rogue, and Maru (in some order) are easy top 4, fifth is very debatable - one of MVP, Zest, sOs, or Life would be my pick (MVP could be excluded depending on how much you want to value early SC2 achievements), though I can see an argument for other people too.
Dark’s easily top 10 for me, if anything I think he’s underrated. He’s been one of the top players in the world for years after all
Across that span he’s rarely been the best. It’s more like long, long period where he’s been amongst the very best and the top 1/2 Korean Zerg
Whereas I think Serral, Maru, Inno, Mvp have had periods where they’re the world’s top player in a way it’s hard to argue against.
For such a ranking I go off mostly how good at Starcraft you are, absolute peak and I weight that quite heavily. Longevity can work as a tiebreaker if needs be, other things being equal.
Rain for example didn’t stick around that long, but in his name he pretty much was the Protoss in an incredibly competitive era.
People saying Reynor is a realistic top 5 all time contender are nuts. He’s very good but Serral has him beat in every category, by a huge distance. Reynor can beat anyone on his day and has some big wins, Serral has pretty much a winning record versus almost everyone in the scene, a ton more international tournaments under his belt, highest vKorean winrate, highest Aligulac ratings, an additional World Championship and more regionals. Reynor’s last crack at Code S didn’t go well either, although at least he tried.
Reynor can beat anyone, Serral usually does, that’s the difference.
Reynor’s accomplishments are closer to Clem’s than they are to Serral’s if we’re realistically talking GOAT rankings. Clem’s still phenomenal but he’s yet to take that next leap to being a consistent international tournament winner
|
Dark has been more consistent than Rogue but he hasnt won as many title, and since his world title in 2019, hasnt gotten a good run in IEM, although I think he has won more weekend tournaments. I would definitely put him somewhere in top 5.
As for Reynor, hes already won a world title and 2 runner up, thats super good considering his early age. He actually out-perform in big tournament unlike Clem who seems to fall off outside of EU tournaments. The problem for Reynor is his unwillingness to play like Serral, especially in ZvT, which I think hes more than capable of. If Reynor get another world title then hes booked in top 5 for me, the ony thing that can stop Reynor from doing that is Maru-turtle style, his lack of interest for ZvZ and possibly LoL/Stormgate.
|
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
Not that I hate Reynor or anything he’s incredibly good and 100% the second best foreigner the scene has seen, in case anyone thinks I’m denigrating him!
He really shouldn’t have won his WC though, both Serral and Maru hardcore threw games on that run
But he did hold his nerve and capitalise so can’t hold that against him!
I just wouldn’t weight the WC too highly unless it’s a tiebreaker between two otherwise evenly matched players
I think the community has a pretty good gauge on this in general. As great as sOs was few really consider those wins above his general career
I mean realistically who is greater Clem or Oliveira? I’d imagine most will go for the former, one miracle tournament run doesn’t trump Clem winning a bunch of regionals, sometimes taking both Reynor and Serral out in one bracket.
|
On July 20 2023 02:18 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind. I don't think Dark or Reynor are top 5 contenders. Especially not Reynor, he just doesn't have enough wins at offline tournaments with Koreans. Inno, Serral, Rogue, and Maru (in some order) are easy top 4, fifth is very debatable - one of MVP, Zest, sOs, or Life would be my pick (MVP could be excluded depending on how much you want to value early SC2 achievements), though I can see an argument for other people too.
I'd say Zest has the 5th spot locked down. He's the best Protoss, won an IEM Katowice (+2 runner ups) and 2 GSLs (+2 runner ups), was dominant in the Kespa era and got high placings all the way up to 2022 (including a farewell super tournament win).
After that it's probably a tossup between Stats, sOs, Life, Dark and Mvp, maybe even herO and possibly soO depending on how much you value 2nd place
|
On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind.
Nah, if you exclude one it'd be Serral.
Rogue has 3 Katowice/Blizzcon and 4 GSLs but no results during the Kespa era, Maru has no World Championship but very strong results during the Kespa era and a record number of GSLs.
Serral has 2 IEM Katowice/Blizzcon but neither results during the Kespa era nor a GSL win
|
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On July 20 2023 04:10 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 02:18 dysenterymd wrote:On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind. I don't think Dark or Reynor are top 5 contenders. Especially not Reynor, he just doesn't have enough wins at offline tournaments with Koreans. Inno, Serral, Rogue, and Maru (in some order) are easy top 4, fifth is very debatable - one of MVP, Zest, sOs, or Life would be my pick (MVP could be excluded depending on how much you want to value early SC2 achievements), though I can see an argument for other people too. I'd say Zest has the 5th spot locked down. He's the best Protoss, won an IEM Katowice (+2 runner ups) and 2 GSLs (+2 runner ups), was dominant in the Kespa era and got high placings all the way up to 2022 (including a farewell super tournament win). After that it's probably a tossup between Stats, sOs, Life, Dark and Mvp, maybe even herO and possibly soO depending on how much you value 2nd place
Zest had long, long periods of basically doing nothing and then having occasional peaking, especially latterly. And his deep runs were usually predicated on some new build that once figured got smashed. He had decent Katowice results despite pretty damn mediocre GSL ones
Rain, shorter period but he was better while he was active.
Latter day Zest came up with a cool build, rode it deep and got absolutely smashed when people examined it and figured counter play.
There’s maybe not been a better build order optimiser in SC2 history than Zest. Equally ‘Zest macro’ isn’t a meme for no reason
Life, definitely better, controversies beside. At a time he was the scariest player in the whole scene. Mvp basically wrote the blueprint on how Terran should be played, and was still competitive when injuries hit. Honestly Taeja despite not really doing it in GSL was a crazy consistent tournament winner elsewhere in his pomp
In terms of Protoss? Stats was obdurate and outside of Rain probably the best going in terms of a wide skillset. herO won a whole bunch more tournaments. Zest maybe peaked for the big party tournies.
|
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On July 20 2023 04:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind. Nah, if you exclude one it'd be Serral. Rogue has 3 Katowice/Blizzcon and 4 GSLs but no results during the Kespa era, Maru has no World Championship but very strong results during the Kespa era and a record number of GSLs. Serral has 2 IEM Katowice/Blizzcon but neither results during the Kespa era nor a GSL win
Serral does have said results though, going way back.
GSL vS the World, Homestory, Assembly, the international ESL competitions. That he basically never places worse than Ro8, ever
Plenty of Korean competitors in interview say he’s the man to beat now, I’ll take their word for it
|
On July 20 2023 04:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind. Nah, if you exclude one it'd be Serral. Rogue has 3 Katowice/Blizzcon and 4 GSLs but no results during the Kespa era, Maru has no World Championship but very strong results during the Kespa era and a record number of GSLs. Serral has 2 IEM Katowice/Blizzcon but neither results during the Kespa era nor a GSL win
Best performing World Championship player (though not by a lot I will admit), most Premier event wins, won Premier events in basically every region...no, you really can't exclude Serral from the Top 5.
|
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess.
|
On July 20 2023 06:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 04:18 Charoisaur wrote:On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind. Nah, if you exclude one it'd be Serral. Rogue has 3 Katowice/Blizzcon and 4 GSLs but no results during the Kespa era, Maru has no World Championship but very strong results during the Kespa era and a record number of GSLs. Serral has 2 IEM Katowice/Blizzcon but neither results during the Kespa era nor a GSL win Serral does have said results though, going way back. GSL vS the World, Homestory, Assembly, the international ESL competitions. That he basically never places worse than Ro8, ever Plenty of Korean competitors in interview say he’s the man to beat now, I’ll take their word for it
Nothing of this contradicts anything I said
|
On July 20 2023 06:05 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 04:18 Charoisaur wrote:On July 20 2023 02:03 Balnazza wrote:On July 19 2023 22:11 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2023 21:58 Drahkn wrote:
Can someone with a lot of money please set up a prize pool for 3 bo7 events where Serral and Maru will battle it out for the greatest player of all time and we can settle this? Don’t you mean Rogue and Maru? Since Rogue is in the military it wouldn’t make much sense. Serral is not in the goat conversation atm even though he might have a case for top 5 *Thread after thread discussing if Serral is the GOAT or not* "lol, Serral isn't in the discussion, but he maaaaybeeee is Top 5" I personally would never go there, but if you wanted to exclude one out of Rogue, Serral and Maru from the Top 5, it would be Maru for sure. Which, again, would still be stupid because these three obviously make the Top 3 of all time, with Dark and Reynor trailing a bit behind. Nah, if you exclude one it'd be Serral. Rogue has 3 Katowice/Blizzcon and 4 GSLs but no results during the Kespa era, Maru has no World Championship but very strong results during the Kespa era and a record number of GSLs. Serral has 2 IEM Katowice/Blizzcon but neither results during the Kespa era nor a GSL win Best performing World Championship player (though not by a lot I will admit), most Premier event wins, won Premier events in basically every region...no, you really can't exclude Serral from the Top 5.
No, you really can't. But personally I think he has the worst case for being the Goat out of him Maru and Rogue
|
Not surprised he didn't feel the need to test himself in Korea considering how much easier it was beating up on foreigners and getting preferential seeding because of the easy points he obtained facing lesser players. Impressive too how his seeding at those mixed tournaments always let him face more foreigners than anyone else who was to reach the finals.
|
Quite the contrast between the interview and the comment section.
|
On July 20 2023 10:34 11cc wrote:
Quite the contrast between the interview and the comment section.
What did you expect :D
|
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game.
|
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game.
Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’
I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
|
On July 20 2023 22:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2023 21:34 TaKeTV wrote:
Imagine thinking Serral would do poorly ANYWHERE. You don't have to be a fan but jesus christ. He is absolutely one of the best players to ever touch the game. Elite Korean progamers any time it comes up in interview ‘Serral is a monster’ I don’t trust everything Korean pros say it interviews, especially Maru still trying to pull the ‘I didn’t expect to get through I’m in bad shape’ after another masterclass but I’ll take their word on that one
Still haven't seen a comment that disagreed with that.
There's a pretty large difference between he's a monster and he's the Goat. Maru and Rogue are monsters too as well as several other players
|
On July 20 2023 06:37 JJH777 wrote:
Thinking Dark/Reynor are 4th and 5th on the goat list is some truly next level recency and Zerg bias almost even worse than calling Serral the clear goat. They don't even touch the resumes of players like Inno/Life/Zest/Mvp. Not surprised that it's the people who think Serral's the clear goat saying that. At least you're consistent I guess.
Mvp only was great when the skill-level was not that high, Zest has huge chunks in his career in which he was barely Top 20, Innovation is great but lacks the World Championships (even more than Maru) and Life...no comment on that.
I will admit, I jumped the gun a lot with Dark and Reynor being "clear Top 5 after the big three". But if you really think they "don't even touch the resumes" of other players then I really can't help you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
