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On August 21 2022 21:37 TheCheapSkate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 21:04 RDO wrote:On August 21 2022 20:35 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 20:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 21 2022 19:05 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho. Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly? Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro. It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win. Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
Talking about the actual rules is a different matter altogether. They shouldn't bend the rules to let reynor switch, nor they should bend'em to disallow him. What happened about the rules it's unclear, maybe it was all a misunderstanding, but asking the other players is bad by every mean, for one there's a clear conflict of interests, and two, if there's a written rule, there shouldn't be a debate with players about it like they get to decide.
Koreans pro aren't 8 years old kids, in fact, they rightfully chose the best option for them, as it's their right to do.
I'm not talking about this GSL, if there's a rule, that's the rule and it's ok.
Theoretically speaking there's nothing unfair (everyone have access to all the races if they want to get better at it), and certainly there's nothing disrespectful in maximizing your skills and training to gain an edge in a competition.
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It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
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On August 22 2022 01:23 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 01:14 RDO wrote:On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash. It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace. It's not that hard for a pro to prepare 1 specific build on a single map with an offrace. It's extremely hard for a player to prepare for that scenario if they won't know which map until minutes before the game. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty of getting a specific matchup and build to the level of their opponents main race. Granted that what I'm describing isn't exactly what Reynor's doing but it would happen if this was a part of all tournaments and there's a reason it's been against the rules in starleagues forever.
I'm sure it's hard to prepare, but at the end of the day it's like preparing for two matchups on the same maps, so, less than you usually do for any group stage. But that's already beside the point, being difficult or even almost impossible shouldn't really matter, Duplantis isn't doing pole vault with bamboo stick just because getting near his records is impossible for everyone else, he's doing his best, as he should.
I get what you're saying about the Starleague but ESL is doing it differently, and it's not like either of them possess the absolute truth.
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On August 22 2022 01:23 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 01:14 RDO wrote:On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash. It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace. It's not that hard for a pro to prepare 1 specific build on a single map with an offrace. It's extremely hard for a player to prepare for that scenario if they won't know which map until minutes before the game. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty of getting a specific matchup and build to the level of their opponents main race. Granted that what I'm describing isn't exactly what Reynor's doing but it would happen if this was a part of all tournaments and there's a reason it's been against the rules in starleagues forever.
It did actually happen what you are describing. Scarlett vs DRG
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On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote:
It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely.
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On August 22 2022 02:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 01:23 JJH777 wrote:On August 22 2022 01:14 RDO wrote:On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash. It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace. It's not that hard for a pro to prepare 1 specific build on a single map with an offrace. It's extremely hard for a player to prepare for that scenario if they won't know which map until minutes before the game. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty of getting a specific matchup and build to the level of their opponents main race. Granted that what I'm describing isn't exactly what Reynor's doing but it would happen if this was a part of all tournaments and there's a reason it's been against the rules in starleagues forever. It did actually happen what you are describing. Scarlett vs DRG
To be fair to that game though, DRG scouted the all-in and literally didn't react and just died when the attack hit a little later.
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On August 22 2022 08:17 yoshi245 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote:
It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it. Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely.
Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself. He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance.
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FGs like Smash have this figured out.
You pick your race/character first. Then, you veto and decide maps.
If both players want to switch race/character to counterpick the opponent's, then they can request a double blind where they both pick their race/character blind, and then they proceed to veto and deciding maps.
It comes down to whether people want to see a game where race picking and counterpicks is part of the gameplay and adds an additional layer of depth, or if people would rather players stick to 1 race and avoid situations where RNG can lead to games where players aren't as prepared.
I would prefer to see tournies allow players to play multiple races, why not. If a player can play multiple races, then let them be rewarded for it. If someone facing Reynor has to consider preparing for Protoss, then let them figure out how much to prepare for which race he might choose. Just like players have to think about how much to prepare for what kind of strategies the opponent might choose with 1 race.
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On August 22 2022 10:09 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 08:17 yoshi245 wrote:On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote:
It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it. Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely. Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself.
You missed the point. It's not harder because Reynor is doing it to challenge himself. It is objectively harder to be that good with two races than to be that good with only one and I don't think that's debatable.
Whether reynor has the talent to do it easily or with a limited amount of time and effort it's irrelevant. It is harder to be competitive with two races, and that's why we hardly ever saw it. Majority of people don't even consider it because they cannot reach near that level even with their main race.
He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance.
Obviously he wouldn't want to do it if he thought he'd be worse, that'd be dumb. Yeah it's his advantage, like microing or macroing better, knowing the timings or whatever aspect of the game you'd like to pick. It's an advantage fairly gained by training more, or training better or by having a bit more talent if you want to go down that route, just like Maru is better with terran than 99.9% of the population, and there's nothing unfair about it.
It's not through cheating. so there's no reason why that advantage wouldn't be fair (given that the rules are clearly stated quite some time before the start of tournament so everyone can adapt ).
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On August 22 2022 18:35 RDO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 10:09 tigera6 wrote:On August 22 2022 08:17 yoshi245 wrote:On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote:
It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it. Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely. Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself. You missed the point. It's not harder because Reynor is doing it to challenge himself. It is objectively harder to be that good with two races than to be that good with only one and I don't think that's debatable. Whether reynor has the talent to do it easily or with a limited amount of time and effort it's irrelevant. It is harder to be competitive with two races, and that's why we hardly ever saw it. Majority of people don't even consider it because they cannot reach near that level even with their main race. Show nested quote +He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance. Obviously he wouldn't want to do it if he thought he'd be worse, that'd be dumb. Yeah it's his advantage, like microing or macroing better, knowing the timings or whatever aspect of the game you'd like to pick. It's an advantage fairly gained by training more, or training better or by having a bit more talent if you want to go down that route, just like Maru is better with terran than 99.9% of the population, and there's nothing unfair about it. It's not through cheating. so there's no reason why that advantage wouldn't be fair (given that the rules are clearly stated quite some time before the start of tournament so everyone can adapt ).
I dont give player "extra credit" for winning with off-race, sorry. Its should not be "objectively harder" if you choose to off-race over your main race on your own will to have a better chance at winning. Because Reynor is admitting that its "obejctively harder" for him to win with Zerg than Protoss.
And majority of players trying to polish their main race and win with one race, doesnt make them less talented or less accomplished than player who off-race. Its completely fine to offrace and improve the winning, but that doesnt mean a damn if in the end you are not winning.
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On August 22 2022 19:07 tigera6 wrote:
I dont give player "extra credit" for winning with off-race, sorry. Its should not be "objectively harder" if you choose to off-race over your main race on your own will to have a better chance at winning. Because Reynor is admitting that its "obejctively harder" for him to win with Zerg than Protoss.
It's not about giving credit, it's about fairness. Everyone can get better with more than one race, so if a player does it, and he has an advantage by doing it, it's a fair advantage and there's no reason not to allow it.
I pointed out the "harder" part and you still missing the point: it's hard to draw like Leonardo Da Vinci, whether you give him credit or not, wheter he put a lot of effort in it, and whether he does it easily or not, it's objectively hard. It's not debatable.
And majority of players trying to polish their main race and win with one race, doesnt make them less talented or less accomplished than player who off-race. Its completely fine to offrace and improve the winning, but that doesnt mean a damn if in the end you are not winning.
I never wanted to belittle other players. They can be as much or more accomplished than reynor, more talented or whatever you want. I agree with you, it's a competition, so it doesn't mean a damn if in the end you are not winning. So why are we crying about how hard it is for pros to adapt to a player switching races? It matters for them how much effort they have to put in preparation but not the effort in training the offrace for reynor? I agree with you, it shouldn't matter, so let them compete with all they have.
The point is just if that's fair or not.
As you said, some choose to "polish their main race and win with one race" while some other to get better with two of them. I don't give cookies to pros who choose to get better with 2 races, and I don't give cookies to pros who polish just one race, whoever wins was the better player that given day.
Then why should we favor the one-race players by not allowing other players to use their full skills with two races? Isn't that just giving them cookies?
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Mid series switching shouldn't be allowed because it grants all the advantages of playing 2 races while having none of the drawbacks.
As others have pointed out already, there's always the scenario where the player has the option to switch back to their main race if whatever they have prepared on their offrace isn't working. Imagine if FlaSh just suddenly decided that he would go back to playing Terran in the middle of losing a series while playing Random.
Meanwhile, the opponent has to constantly guess which race is going to be played on specific maps while having to keep in mind it could suddenly change in the middle of a series, which messes with the entire point of the Starleague format, preparation on specific maps, against a specific race, against a specific player. You can invalidate, as others have said, map-vetoes and prep by race switching around. If you're into this just watch the weekenders instead, where prep matters a lot less.
Before anyone says that its equally difficult to play 2 races and to prepare for 2 races, consider this: The player race-swtiching KNOWS which maps he will play a different race on, he only has to prepare 1 build per map based on the race he has chosen, whereas the other player doesn't know which race he'll be facing on each respective map and will have to prepare 2 builds per map. It was a lot more "fair" in this aspect when FlaSh went random because both FlaSh and his opponent didn't have any knowledge of FlaSh's race on a specific maps.
Mid-tournament switching should be allowed though, but for me it should only be allowed once and must be communicated to the other party as soon as possible. (i.e. no switching back after the initial race switch)
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This isn't really a very hard problem. Player has to choose race before the veto and can't change it during the series. Boom, problem solved.
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pick before the series cant swap during its that easy
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
As long as people choose in advance, depending on format.
I think for a weekender, where prep isn’t a factor you choose your race prior to the match and have to stick to your decision. Then make map picks.
For a prep tournament, I think you should decide and let it be known in advance what you’re playing. Still allow off race, but say for Reynor if he’s going to play PvZ rather than ZvZ. More for a group stage I think maybe for a 1v1 in playoffs it could be interesting to have off races played blind, possibly.
Let’s say hypothetically though we have a group stage, and it’s an all Zerg group. Reynor’s there with his P and let’s say Dark starts showcasing his Terran off race which is very good too (it probably is to be fair).
The other Zergs in that group are going to have to practice all three matchups in their prep, but then it turns game day and Reynor and Dark have been playing nothing but ZvZ in the lead up.
I think that specific hypothetical feels a bit wonky and unfair.
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On August 22 2022 10:09 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 08:17 yoshi245 wrote:On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote:
It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it. Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely. Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself. He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance.
the funny thing is it doesn't seem like Reynor really IS as good or better with Protoss as he is with Zerg, so GSL not allowing him to racepick could be to his advantage
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On August 22 2022 21:37 BorealisSolari wrote:
Mid series switching shouldn't be allowed because it grants all the advantages of playing 2 races while having none of the drawbacks.
I don't get it: why it should even have drawbacks? Being able to play 2 races is not a lottery, or a perk unlocked through money like in a mmo skill tree, it's something that requires skill, training, effort and time and if you are able to do it at a top level there's no reason why you should have drawbacks.
As others have pointed out already, there's always the scenario where the player has the option to switch back to their main race if whatever they have prepared on their offrace isn't working. Imagine if FlaSh just suddenly decided that he would go back to playing Terran in the middle of losing a series while playing Random.
Meanwhile, the opponent has to constantly guess which race is going to be played on specific maps while having to keep in mind it could suddenly change in the middle of a series, which messes with the entire point of the Starleague format, preparation on specific maps, against a specific race, against a specific player. You can invalidate, as others have said, map-vetoes and prep by race switching around. If you're into this just watch the weekenders instead, where prep matters a lot less.
This doesn't make any sense. First of all, not all tournaments are the Starleague (thanks god). Second, if you know your opponent can play 2 races you prepare two matchups. Pros do that constantly in GSL and other tournaments because of group stages.
Is it an advantage for the 2 races player? Yes, sure. Is it unfair? Absolutely not.
As I already said, it's a fairly gained advantage, there's not cheating involved, just being good enough to do it, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be there except that "but it's hard for the other player".
Well, duh, even Maru's turtling is hard for the other players, so are we going to take it away from him?
Before anyone says that its equally difficult to play 2 races and to prepare for 2 races, consider this: The player race-swtiching KNOWS which maps he will play a different race on, he only has to prepare 1 build per map based on the race he has chosen, whereas the other player doesn't know which race he'll be facing on each respective map and will have to prepare 2 builds per map. It was a lot more "fair" in this aspect when FlaSh went random because both FlaSh and his opponent didn't have any knowledge of FlaSh's race on a specific maps.
No, it's not equally hard to play and to prepare.
It's way more difficult and time counsuming to learn to play 2 races well enough to compete, than to prepare for a 2 race player.
Are we saying that preparing for 1 race is hard as to learn to play with 1 race? And we are talking about pros here.
Years of playing and learning mechanics and strategies compared to one week of preparation. Really?
It's like you guys think that just selecting your offrace is going to give you an advantage, like the 6k Reynor's terran is going to be competitive against Dark's zerg just because it's a surprise. It's not, and that's why nobody's doing that with a 6k or even 6.5k offrace.
Being able to be anywhere near your main with your offrace and be able to use it as a possible advantage requires a lot of skill and effort, and it's not something that comes just because the rules allow it and you select the other race. I'm surprised you guys seem to think that being this good it's just some gift that only reynor was lucky enough to get, and it'd be unfair to use it against the other unlucky players.
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On August 23 2022 00:00 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 10:09 tigera6 wrote:On August 22 2022 08:17 yoshi245 wrote:On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote:
It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it. Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely. Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself. He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance. the funny thing is it doesn't seem like Reynor really IS as good or better with Protoss as he is with Zerg, so GSL not allowing him to racepick could be to his advantage
We haven't seen anything to indicate yet that Reynor is better off race picking. The closest thing to a piece of evidence we've gotten is him going 3-3 against Dark with Protoss, but even there almost every series between Reynor and Dark since 2019 Blizzcon has gone down to the wire so that's not really Reynor doing "better". He did beat Solar 2-0 a few times with Toss, but Reynor doing that in ZvZ wouldn't be notable either. At the same time, Reynor's dropped series to the likes of Elazer (offline no less) and Rattata because of messing around with Toss. Reynor losing to Elazer in a bo5 ZvZ isn't inconceivable, but once again it certainly doesn't look like toss helped him.
If pro-players believing something is good is proof that that thing is good, we would all have to embrace hellbat builds because top Terran keep going for them 
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On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote:
It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Imagine if Flash mid ASL semifinals said fuck it! and switched back to terran...
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On August 23 2022 02:54 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote:
It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it. Imagine if Flash mid ASL semifinals said fuck it! and switched back to terran...
He'd win, we'd say Flash gud and move on.
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EPT
