Reynor plays Zerg against Protoss and Terran, but chooses Protoss (the majority of the time recently), against Zerg. There was recently an interesting discussion which took place as a result of Reynor asking GSL to suspend their one race rule, and GSL, after asking the players, denied Reynor’s request.
Reynor has been an incredibly talented player, and seeing him explore, and be successful with, a new Macro, 12+ gateway heavy style has been very enjoyable. Personally, I prefer watching PvZ versus ZvZ, but I understand there are plenty of people who would disagree with me.
This has opened an interesting dialogue in the community, with some agreeing and disagreeing with the decision.
Some highlights of the discussion from this afternoon’s GFUEL Gladiator’s Cup
“Race swapping mid-series opens up scenarios where player A prefers X race against Player B's Y Race but Player B would then rather pick Z against Player A's X which would Player A would rather pick Y etc...
“Reynor's off racing is forcing tournaments to set clear rules for switching races. It's only unfair if the rules are not clear to both competitors (for example preparing for the wrong race, or vetoing the wrong map). As long as the rules are clear then neither player has an advantage”.
“it would be one of the cases that has to be regulated while still allowing people to play races they want, so probably declaring races beforehand or to the admin before they pick them on the map. It would create an interesting mind game in itself (is my opponent going to play A or B, and what I should pick then?) aka a bit of game theory like in poker”
“In that case, both blind picking a race is the solution. That's the future when more players start to play multiple races in RTS, I believe.”
Ciaus_Dronu concisely explains the issue with race swapping after map picks and vetoes.
Swapping series to series with race commit before vetoes - fine. Swapping mid series - not fine.
I like angry_maia's idea of having a "main" race - and if you want to swap you have to be the one to declare and allow your opponent to counter. Even if only because it allows you the chance of reasonable counter-prep.
I think fixed race per series is important, in part because of map balance (choosing a race for each map when the maps are not all 50/50 for each matchup seems silly to me), and in part to encourage solid prep.
Personally, I am of the opinion that player’s should be able to pick races for specific match ups, but race swapping mid-series seems a bit too far, but I recognize that may be overly traditionalist view. So, do people agree with the GSL? How exactly should the community standardize race picking? Is a standard even needed across tournaments?
Poll: How should Players pick races for a tournament/series
Contemporary: Permit race swapping for specific series (101)
64%
Traditionalist: One race for One tournament (GSL included) (47)
30%
Other (10)
6%
158 total votes
Your vote: How should Players pick races for a tournament/series
(Vote): Traditionalist: One race for One tournament (GSL included) (Vote): Contemporary: Permit race swapping for specific series (Vote): Other
I would at least permit race swapping for specific series, but I'm not too worried about allowing players to switch races in a series. If a player does a bit research on their opponent, they should be able to know if they are able to play multiple races and do their preparation and their map veto in consequence (especially since the race-switcher list is currently a single name).
It's the same as style for me, you do your veto taking into consideration that a player tend to play certain compositions or builds, if he bust something else, your veto and preparation can backfire.
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
If you wanna swap races, do it, before, after, during... There s nothing more idiot that add a rule which discourage pro player of playing differently and with each races.
Blindly selecting the race would basically be deciding via a coinflip who gets an advantage which is not what I want to see from an RTS. In the current pro scene this scenario is unlikely to occur but I still don't think a potentially problematic rule should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. If more players would do it like Reynor it would become problematic.
As things go right now, it seems nonsensical to prevent players like Reynor from offracing in any form, for several reasons. First of all, how is this different from playing certain builds against certain opponents? Should we also prevent Byun from hitting zergs with a 211 because he is particularly good at it? It seems to me that if a player is willing to put the work in to be world class in two different races, they should be rewarded with that advantage, much like if a player finds something sneaky about a map or hides a build.
Reynor playing protoss has also been one of the most interesting storylines SC2 has had in a long time. Its driving viewership harder than we have seen in a while, and that is worth a lot - especially as we are seeing Reynor lose with it as much as he wins. At this point, Reynor runs in EPT Cups and other events against top zergs are must-watch TV - will he play Zerg? Toss? Some combination? In a game as old as this, storylines that drive viewership are hard to come by. Banning that out because of some nebulous sense of fairness (and I'm not of the camp that believes it is unfair that Reynor has trained for months to improve his protoss on top of his zerg to get to this point) deprives us of something pretty special
Switching mid series should not be allowed since it messes up with the vetoes, but swapping race during a tournament could be allowed and I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as the opponents know which race they meet early enough.
On August 21 2022 03:53 Charoisaur wrote: Blindly selecting the race would basically be deciding via a coinflip who gets an advantage which is not what I want to see from an RTS. In the current pro scene this scenario is unlikely to occur but I still don't think a potentially problematic rule should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. If more players would do it like Reynor it would become problematic.
We have plenty of build order scenarios that are as close as it get to auto-win, the possibility to race swap get you at most a slight map or match up advantage with full information before hand that can perfectly be nullified if your opponent plays better than you (as the last 20 something years of Starcraft as demonstrated) plus it ask that you learn another race. In a game where we can get nexus first versus proxy-marauder it seems excessive to forbid players from taking risk that actually need a huge amount of practice behind it.
If we really want to avoid the blind pick we could do it the FGC way (loser get to swap, winner don't) but it seems excessive to me.
On August 21 2022 04:22 darklycid wrote: Still how are you going to deal with 2 players wanting to swap race depending on the opponents race? Forcing them to main race in that case?
This is not a unique problem to Starcraft, in fighting game communities the solution is often something like, winner picks and declares first and must stay their pick, loser can counter pick. The only issue is the first map which is usually done as a blind pick. I wouldn't mind seeing something similar in SC2 so after any given game in a match you have loser pick map (if not already decided), winner pick race then loser pick race.
With the loss of audience and users diversity, at lot of narratives on this website are a bunch conspiracy theories like blizz/esl are racists or match up are rigged in favor of foreigners. Even if the said organization is dumping a shitload of money into gsl since the very beginning.
So yeah a lot of users are obviously displeased when they're seeing a foreigner offracing with decent success against the best korean zerg no matter how high the level of the serie can be. Rather than praises for mastering two races it was all about reynor trolling, abusing loophole, unfairness (he only used zerg once and lost) as if it was so easy, after 12 years, no one did it to this extent in international tournament which is quite logic as the vast majority of pro loses at least 500mmr when offracing but for sure switching race is actually broken. We learn everyday I guess.
Anyway, the fairness question is just bs, if maru or herO had been doing it they would receive nothing but compliments and they should.
All in all, if people weren't made stupid by fanboytism around race irl, this trend would be better accepted as it puts accent on the player skill rather than the race.
On August 21 2022 04:22 darklycid wrote: Still how are you going to deal with 2 players wanting to swap race depending on the opponents race? Forcing them to main race in that case?
Maybe a bit complicated, but here's one way to do it. Each player must have a default race (i.e. Reynor Zerg).
Any time player A plays player B, either player has the option of initiating a race switch. They announce the race they wanna switch to, at which point the other player has the option of either accepting (and the game starts) or countering with a race switch of their own. This continues, but you are never allowed to switch to a given race more than once, meaning that at most 3 rounds of this will occur.
A few examples:
Reynor vs Solar:
Reynor initiates with P (making it PvZ) Solar counters with T (making this a PvT) Reynor counters with T (making a TvT) Solar counters with P (makint it TvP). At this point no more switching allowed at all since they've gone through all possibilities.
Reynor vs Maru
Reynor initiates with P (making PvT) Maru accepts, so PvT it is.
This system means that trying to race switch immediately removes your option of playing your main race. Finally, if two race switchers come across each other, they can just flip a coin to see who gets to initiate the race switching first.
On August 21 2022 05:22 stilt wrote: With the loss of audience and users diversity, at lot of narratives on this website are a bunch conspiracy theories like blizz/esl are racists or match up are rigged in favor of foreigners. Even if the said organization is dumping a shitload of money into gsl since the very beginning.
So yeah a lot of users are obviously displeased when they're seeing a foreigner offracing with decent success against the best korean zerg no matter how high the level of the serie can be. Rather than praises for mastering two races it was all about reynor trolling, abusing loophole, unfairness (he only used zerg once and lost) as if it was so easy, after 12 years, no one did it to this extent in international tournament which is quite logic as the vast majority of pro loses at least 500mmr when offracing but for sure switching race is actually broken. We learn everyday I guess.
Anyway, the fairness question is just bs, if maru or herO had been doing it they would receive nothing but compliments and they should.
All in all, if people weren't made stupid by fanboytism around race irl, this trend would be better accepted as it puts accent on the player skill rather than the race.
Idk, I wouldn’t like Maru to play protoss or zerg even though he has excellent off race, I find his terran way more fun.
I have 0 issues with race swapping so long as it's done before map vetoes happen. If it's a long term tournament like GSL, then they will have to make their decision before the match happens (like a week beforehand) so their opponents are aware of what to prepare for.
It's not that complicated. What would be controversial about this system?
In tournaments like GSL where you can prepare very specific strats for your opponent it makes sense not to allow race swaps. In weekend tournaments I don't think it impacts anything that deeply.
It's a competition. Why shouldn't you be allowed to use any and all resources in your arsenal? Any race at any time should be legal. It's like saying you can't 12 pool mid-series, either do it all series or not at all.
SC2 has evolved more into the game of skill in recent years, meaning it depend on the mechanical skill as well as the tactical awareness of the player during game. Thats why when a player win, he is almost always consider as "better", at least at that moment, rather than "luckier". SC2 doesnt have much of "randomness" in their game play mechanic like AoE, even the map pool has been streamlined into that direction.
In that light, having offracing throw some "randomness" into the game that not all players are welcomed to, especially if the choice of the off-race is only revealed 1 minutes before the game start. IMO, the map veto should also be where players declare their race if off-racing is allowed.
As for Reynor case, yes its very cool to see him playing PvZ in a couple of tournaments, and I have no problem with him keep doing it for better viewership, but we also need to understand that Reynor wants to do it because he believe that would improve his chance of winning. That means hes not playing PvZ as a "handicap" for himself but that was an advantage, so we dont really need to give him more advantage by not allowing the opponent to know the race beforehand.
I haven’t followed SC in a decade, but my belief is that any player should be allowed to play any race at any time. Since the vast majority of my esports experience is with Dota 2, I would absolutely hate any kind of rule that would prohibit, for instance, a hard carry from swapping roles with a support for a match to throw off an opponent. It should be expected of elite professional players to be prepared for any scenario that their opponent(s) throw at them.
Preparation is what makes tournaments interesting to watch, for me at least. Seeing what players have come up with based on studying their opponents, trying to predict how they will play, and what is best against them, specifically, even if it's off-meta. When a player can arbitrarily change race, it invalidates all of that preparation. I might as well watch a random ladder game. Prep goes out the window and, with it, a lot of the more creative builds the player might otherwise have brought.
GSL has always had more of a focus on prep due to the over all longer timescale of the tournament, so even more than other tournaments, allowing switching around over the course of the tournament would result in the tournament missing its main appeal.
I think players should be allowed to switch races even between maps, but have to Pick those blindly before map pick/ ban It s not coinflipy but becomes Part of the mindestens games/ Strategie instead. In AoE2 / AoE4 people have to play a different race on every map and knowing what race the oponent prefers on wich map is a big Part of the competition It even enforces preperation and studying of your opponent even further. There maps are usually decided by losers Pick instead before the match and players Pick the map first and then the race. I Don t think that would work for SC2 though, because the maps are more similar and the races are more different here, so you would still Pick the Aspect, that is more diverse first
Given how it has had minimal impact on competitive play thus far, I don't really see it being a problem. I do think that you should at least commit per map for the sake of vetoes though.
There's nothing stopping others from learning other races for their matchups either. The fact that random exists sort of encourages this idea.
On August 21 2022 04:13 Poopi wrote: Switching mid series should not be allowed since it messes up with the vetoes, but swapping race during a tournament could be allowed and I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as the opponents know which race they meet early enough.
Swapping series to series with race commit before vetoes - fine. Swapping mid series - not fine.
I like angry_maia's idea of having a "main" race - and if you want to swap you have to be the one to declare and allow your opponent to counter. Even if only because it allows you the chance of reasonable counter-prep.
I think fixed race per series is important, in part because of map balance (choosing a race for each map when the maps are not all 50/50 for each matchup seems silly to me), and in part to encourage solid prep.
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro.
It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win.
I don't know why people are acting like it's lame, or cowardly, or disrespectful to be good at multiple races. It's fine if you think people should have to commit to a race, but there's no objective reason why that's better or worse. You just don't like the idea of players needing to play multiple races. Fortunately, all evidence shows that you don't need to play multiple races to win, and there have been very few cases where it made much of an impact. Reynor is one of the few examples, with Scarlett and a couple others having done it before.
When people play competitive Smash Bros, or Street Fighter, it's really quite common for players to have multiple characters and sometimes characters solely for a matchup. In those cases, it's obviously near impossible to have pair-wise balance between ever character, but the reasoning behind it is still the same. Players have the ability to play any race, and consequently, can take advantage of that if they do not like, or do not feel even with the matchup.
If you think a player should not be able to change due to "balance" or whatever, you should also argue that Random shouldn't exist. Because, you know, in theory, they are at an advantage from having the possibility of all 3 races!! Of course it's harder to learn 3 races, and even harder to prepare for 3 for any given map. But that's not relevant to the argument, clearly.
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro.
It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win.
Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro.
It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win.
Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
No, the more logical reason why they didn't agree to it is because they clearly didn't want to face someone who plays two different races and that it would only benefit their potential opponent (Reynor). And it's not unfair and disrespectful if every player is given the same opportunity, which they would be.
I believe we should advocate for more freedom and creativity until a real problem emerges. So, unless the tournament is based on extensive preparation, such as the GSL, I think that every player should be able to change races at any time during the series. Otherwise, the race selection for each series should simply be agreed upon in advance. People who complain about the small advantage it gives you over map vetoes are the same players who complain about a random opponent. They seem unaware of the amount of training and skill required to be at the top with multiple races. Until Reynor started doing it, everything indicated that mastering multiple races competitively was too difficult and not worth the effort.
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro.
It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win.
Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
No, the more logical reason why they didn't agree to it is because they clearly didn't want to face someone who plays two different races and that it would only benefit their potential opponent (Reynor). And it's not unfair and disrespectful if every player is given the same opportunity, which they would be.
Given that koreans never had an incentive to practice their offraces as race-picking has always been forbidden in the GSL it's only in theory true that every player is given the same opportunity. I understand that they don't think the rules should be bended to the will of one player.
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro.
It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win.
Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
Really throwing me for a loop with the "disrespectful" comment. They aren't shittalking the opponent. They are using a strategy in their arsenal. Is Maru disrespectful when he proxy rax?
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
This is not a good argument. Is it dishonourable and un-manly to cheese game one and macro the rest of the series or vice versa? People frequently switch strategies when they find one is not working. Imo that would be a sign of strength rather than weakness. Also, I don't think Reynor is just "clowning around." I'm pretty sure he genuinely thinks his PvZ is better than his ZvZ.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash.
On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote: Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash.
It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace.
I am fine with race switching between series in weekend tournaments where there is no prep time. I am not fine with it in the GSL or any other prep tournament, like the WTL. Different tournaments have different formats and gimmicks that makes them unique and it should be keep like that.
On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote: Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash.
It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace.
It's not that hard for a pro to prepare 1 specific build on a single map with an offrace. It's extremely hard for a player to prepare for that scenario if they won't know which map until minutes before the game. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty of getting a specific matchup and build to the level of their opponents main race.
Granted that what I'm describing isn't exactly what Reynor's doing but it would happen if this was a part of all tournaments and there's a reason it's been against the rules in starleagues forever.
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro.
It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win.
Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
Talking about the actual rules is a different matter altogether. They shouldn't bend the rules to let reynor switch, nor they should bend'em to disallow him. What happened about the rules it's unclear, maybe it was all a misunderstanding, but asking the other players is bad by every mean, for one there's a clear conflict of interests, and two, if there's a written rule, there shouldn't be a debate with players about it like they get to decide. Koreans pro aren't 8 years old kids, in fact, they rightfully chose the best option for them, as it's their right to do. I'm not talking about this GSL, if there's a rule, that's the rule and it's ok. Theoretically speaking there's nothing unfair (everyone have access to all the races if they want to get better at it), and certainly there's nothing disrespectful in maximizing your skills and training to gain an edge in a competition.
On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote: Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash.
It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace.
It's not that hard for a pro to prepare 1 specific build on a single map with an offrace. It's extremely hard for a player to prepare for that scenario if they won't know which map until minutes before the game. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty of getting a specific matchup and build to the level of their opponents main race.
Granted that what I'm describing isn't exactly what Reynor's doing but it would happen if this was a part of all tournaments and there's a reason it's been against the rules in starleagues forever.
I'm sure it's hard to prepare, but at the end of the day it's like preparing for two matchups on the same maps, so, less than you usually do for any group stage. But that's already beside the point, being difficult or even almost impossible shouldn't really matter, Duplantis isn't doing pole vault with bamboo stick just because getting near his records is impossible for everyone else, he's doing his best, as he should. I get what you're saying about the Starleague but ESL is doing it differently, and it's not like either of them possess the absolute truth.
On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote: Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash.
It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace.
It's not that hard for a pro to prepare 1 specific build on a single map with an offrace. It's extremely hard for a player to prepare for that scenario if they won't know which map until minutes before the game. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty of getting a specific matchup and build to the level of their opponents main race.
Granted that what I'm describing isn't exactly what Reynor's doing but it would happen if this was a part of all tournaments and there's a reason it's been against the rules in starleagues forever.
It did actually happen what you are describing. Scarlett vs DRG
On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote: It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely.
On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote: Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash.
It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace.
It's not that hard for a pro to prepare 1 specific build on a single map with an offrace. It's extremely hard for a player to prepare for that scenario if they won't know which map until minutes before the game. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty of getting a specific matchup and build to the level of their opponents main race.
Granted that what I'm describing isn't exactly what Reynor's doing but it would happen if this was a part of all tournaments and there's a reason it's been against the rules in starleagues forever.
It did actually happen what you are describing. Scarlett vs DRG
To be fair to that game though, DRG scouted the all-in and literally didn't react and just died when the attack hit a little later.
On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote: It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely.
Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself. He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance.
You pick your race/character first. Then, you veto and decide maps. If both players want to switch race/character to counterpick the opponent's, then they can request a double blind where they both pick their race/character blind, and then they proceed to veto and deciding maps.
It comes down to whether people want to see a game where race picking and counterpicks is part of the gameplay and adds an additional layer of depth, or if people would rather players stick to 1 race and avoid situations where RNG can lead to games where players aren't as prepared.
I would prefer to see tournies allow players to play multiple races, why not. If a player can play multiple races, then let them be rewarded for it. If someone facing Reynor has to consider preparing for Protoss, then let them figure out how much to prepare for which race he might choose. Just like players have to think about how much to prepare for what kind of strategies the opponent might choose with 1 race.
On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote: It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely.
Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself.
You missed the point. It's not harder because Reynor is doing it to challenge himself. It is objectively harder to be that good with two races than to be that good with only one and I don't think that's debatable. Whether reynor has the talent to do it easily or with a limited amount of time and effort it's irrelevant. It is harder to be competitive with two races, and that's why we hardly ever saw it. Majority of people don't even consider it because they cannot reach near that level even with their main race.
He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance.
Obviously he wouldn't want to do it if he thought he'd be worse, that'd be dumb. Yeah it's his advantage, like microing or macroing better, knowing the timings or whatever aspect of the game you'd like to pick. It's an advantage fairly gained by training more, or training better or by having a bit more talent if you want to go down that route, just like Maru is better with terran than 99.9% of the population, and there's nothing unfair about it. It's not through cheating. so there's no reason why that advantage wouldn't be fair (given that the rules are clearly stated quite some time before the start of tournament so everyone can adapt ).
On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote: It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely.
Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself.
You missed the point. It's not harder because Reynor is doing it to challenge himself. It is objectively harder to be that good with two races than to be that good with only one and I don't think that's debatable. Whether reynor has the talent to do it easily or with a limited amount of time and effort it's irrelevant. It is harder to be competitive with two races, and that's why we hardly ever saw it. Majority of people don't even consider it because they cannot reach near that level even with their main race.
He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance.
Obviously he wouldn't want to do it if he thought he'd be worse, that'd be dumb. Yeah it's his advantage, like microing or macroing better, knowing the timings or whatever aspect of the game you'd like to pick. It's an advantage fairly gained by training more, or training better or by having a bit more talent if you want to go down that route, just like Maru is better with terran than 99.9% of the population, and there's nothing unfair about it. It's not through cheating. so there's no reason why that advantage wouldn't be fair (given that the rules are clearly stated quite some time before the start of tournament so everyone can adapt ).
I dont give player "extra credit" for winning with off-race, sorry. Its should not be "objectively harder" if you choose to off-race over your main race on your own will to have a better chance at winning. Because Reynor is admitting that its "obejctively harder" for him to win with Zerg than Protoss.
And majority of players trying to polish their main race and win with one race, doesnt make them less talented or less accomplished than player who off-race. Its completely fine to offrace and improve the winning, but that doesnt mean a damn if in the end you are not winning.
I dont give player "extra credit" for winning with off-race, sorry. Its should not be "objectively harder" if you choose to off-race over your main race on your own will to have a better chance at winning. Because Reynor is admitting that its "obejctively harder" for him to win with Zerg than Protoss.
It's not about giving credit, it's about fairness. Everyone can get better with more than one race, so if a player does it, and he has an advantage by doing it, it's a fair advantage and there's no reason not to allow it. I pointed out the "harder" part and you still missing the point: it's hard to draw like Leonardo Da Vinci, whether you give him credit or not, wheter he put a lot of effort in it, and whether he does it easily or not, it's objectively hard. It's not debatable.
And majority of players trying to polish their main race and win with one race, doesnt make them less talented or less accomplished than player who off-race. Its completely fine to offrace and improve the winning, but that doesnt mean a damn if in the end you are not winning.
I never wanted to belittle other players. They can be as much or more accomplished than reynor, more talented or whatever you want. I agree with you, it's a competition, so it doesn't mean a damn if in the end you are not winning. So why are we crying about how hard it is for pros to adapt to a player switching races? It matters for them how much effort they have to put in preparation but not the effort in training the offrace for reynor? I agree with you, it shouldn't matter, so let them compete with all they have. The point is just if that's fair or not. As you said, some choose to "polish their main race and win with one race" while some other to get better with two of them. I don't give cookies to pros who choose to get better with 2 races, and I don't give cookies to pros who polish just one race, whoever wins was the better player that given day. Then why should we favor the one-race players by not allowing other players to use their full skills with two races? Isn't that just giving them cookies?
Mid series switching shouldn't be allowed because it grants all the advantages of playing 2 races while having none of the drawbacks.
As others have pointed out already, there's always the scenario where the player has the option to switch back to their main race if whatever they have prepared on their offrace isn't working. Imagine if FlaSh just suddenly decided that he would go back to playing Terran in the middle of losing a series while playing Random.
Meanwhile, the opponent has to constantly guess which race is going to be played on specific maps while having to keep in mind it could suddenly change in the middle of a series, which messes with the entire point of the Starleague format, preparation on specific maps, against a specific race, against a specific player. You can invalidate, as others have said, map-vetoes and prep by race switching around. If you're into this just watch the weekenders instead, where prep matters a lot less.
Before anyone says that its equally difficult to play 2 races and to prepare for 2 races, consider this: The player race-swtiching KNOWS which maps he will play a different race on, he only has to prepare 1 build per map based on the race he has chosen, whereas the other player doesn't know which race he'll be facing on each respective map and will have to prepare 2 builds per map. It was a lot more "fair" in this aspect when FlaSh went random because both FlaSh and his opponent didn't have any knowledge of FlaSh's race on a specific maps.
Mid-tournament switching should be allowed though, but for me it should only be allowed once and must be communicated to the other party as soon as possible. (i.e. no switching back after the initial race switch)
As long as people choose in advance, depending on format.
I think for a weekender, where prep isn’t a factor you choose your race prior to the match and have to stick to your decision. Then make map picks.
For a prep tournament, I think you should decide and let it be known in advance what you’re playing. Still allow off race, but say for Reynor if he’s going to play PvZ rather than ZvZ. More for a group stage I think maybe for a 1v1 in playoffs it could be interesting to have off races played blind, possibly.
Let’s say hypothetically though we have a group stage, and it’s an all Zerg group. Reynor’s there with his P and let’s say Dark starts showcasing his Terran off race which is very good too (it probably is to be fair).
The other Zergs in that group are going to have to practice all three matchups in their prep, but then it turns game day and Reynor and Dark have been playing nothing but ZvZ in the lead up.
I think that specific hypothetical feels a bit wonky and unfair.
On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote: It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely.
Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself. He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance.
the funny thing is it doesn't seem like Reynor really IS as good or better with Protoss as he is with Zerg, so GSL not allowing him to racepick could be to his advantage
On August 22 2022 21:37 BorealisSolari wrote: Mid series switching shouldn't be allowed because it grants all the advantages of playing 2 races while having none of the drawbacks.
I don't get it: why it should even have drawbacks? Being able to play 2 races is not a lottery, or a perk unlocked through money like in a mmo skill tree, it's something that requires skill, training, effort and time and if you are able to do it at a top level there's no reason why you should have drawbacks.
As others have pointed out already, there's always the scenario where the player has the option to switch back to their main race if whatever they have prepared on their offrace isn't working. Imagine if FlaSh just suddenly decided that he would go back to playing Terran in the middle of losing a series while playing Random.
Meanwhile, the opponent has to constantly guess which race is going to be played on specific maps while having to keep in mind it could suddenly change in the middle of a series, which messes with the entire point of the Starleague format, preparation on specific maps, against a specific race, against a specific player. You can invalidate, as others have said, map-vetoes and prep by race switching around. If you're into this just watch the weekenders instead, where prep matters a lot less.
This doesn't make any sense. First of all, not all tournaments are the Starleague (thanks god). Second, if you know your opponent can play 2 races you prepare two matchups. Pros do that constantly in GSL and other tournaments because of group stages. Is it an advantage for the 2 races player? Yes, sure. Is it unfair? Absolutely not. As I already said, it's a fairly gained advantage, there's not cheating involved, just being good enough to do it, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be there except that "but it's hard for the other player". Well, duh, even Maru's turtling is hard for the other players, so are we going to take it away from him?
Before anyone says that its equally difficult to play 2 races and to prepare for 2 races, consider this: The player race-swtiching KNOWS which maps he will play a different race on, he only has to prepare 1 build per map based on the race he has chosen, whereas the other player doesn't know which race he'll be facing on each respective map and will have to prepare 2 builds per map. It was a lot more "fair" in this aspect when FlaSh went random because both FlaSh and his opponent didn't have any knowledge of FlaSh's race on a specific maps.
No, it's not equally hard to play and to prepare. It's way more difficult and time counsuming to learn to play 2 races well enough to compete, than to prepare for a 2 race player. Are we saying that preparing for 1 race is hard as to learn to play with 1 race? And we are talking about pros here.
Years of playing and learning mechanics and strategies compared to one week of preparation. Really? It's like you guys think that just selecting your offrace is going to give you an advantage, like the 6k Reynor's terran is going to be competitive against Dark's zerg just because it's a surprise. It's not, and that's why nobody's doing that with a 6k or even 6.5k offrace. Being able to be anywhere near your main with your offrace and be able to use it as a possible advantage requires a lot of skill and effort, and it's not something that comes just because the rules allow it and you select the other race. I'm surprised you guys seem to think that being this good it's just some gift that only reynor was lucky enough to get, and it'd be unfair to use it against the other unlucky players.
On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote: It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Exactly my way of thinking. It's sad so many people are so afraid of preparing for another race to deal with in a matchup. It's a harder task for the multi/offracer since they gotta play a certain level with more than just one race entirely.
Thats where the misconception is coming from, Reynor is offracing not because its harder for him and he wants to challenge himself. He is offracing because he BELIEVES that hes doing better with it for the particular matchup. So if its to his advantage to offrace, then dont bring up how "hard" it is and trying to handicap the opponent by not allowing them to know the race pick in advance.
the funny thing is it doesn't seem like Reynor really IS as good or better with Protoss as he is with Zerg, so GSL not allowing him to racepick could be to his advantage
We haven't seen anything to indicate yet that Reynor is better off race picking. The closest thing to a piece of evidence we've gotten is him going 3-3 against Dark with Protoss, but even there almost every series between Reynor and Dark since 2019 Blizzcon has gone down to the wire so that's not really Reynor doing "better". He did beat Solar 2-0 a few times with Toss, but Reynor doing that in ZvZ wouldn't be notable either. At the same time, Reynor's dropped series to the likes of Elazer (offline no less) and Rattata because of messing around with Toss. Reynor losing to Elazer in a bo5 ZvZ isn't inconceivable, but once again it certainly doesn't look like toss helped him.
If pro-players believing something is good is proof that that thing is good, we would all have to embrace hellbat builds because top Terran keep going for them
On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote: It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Imagine if Flash mid ASL semifinals said fuck it! and switched back to terran...
On August 22 2022 01:28 outscar wrote: It's 2022 jeez, let everyone do whatever they want. FlaSh went to ro4 on ASL10 with random. If Reynor thinks he's better offrace let him do it.
Imagine if Flash mid ASL semifinals said fuck it! and switched back to terran...
I dont particularly care, but I think for GSL if you're planning to switch races, you have to notify the tournament ahead of time. Since GSL is a "prepped" tournament, where players know the map, picks and race ahed of time, it would be unfair if you announce the race switch after vetos and maps have been decided. If you tell them, I am going to play x race for map 1 and y race for map 2 and x race again for map 3 ahead of time, then go for it.
1. The first match is played on one of the five neutral stages listed above. Which neutral stage is picked is determined by either stage striking, mutual agreement between players, random selection, or both. 2. For the first match, characters are chosen double-blind - at the same time, so that neither player knows their opponent's character beforehand. In practice, this rule is often ignored, but players always reserve the option to force a double-blind pick. 3. The loser of the first match (and of successive matches) chooses the next stage, and then the winner chooses their character, and then the loser chooses their character. This series of choices is called slob picks. a. The loser can pick either a neutral stage or a counterpick stage. b. The loser cannot choose any stage that they have already won on in the current set. This rule is known as "Dave's Stupid Rule", named after Scamp. c. The winner may ban one stage from the opponent's selection, except in best-of-5 sets.
I think in melee the stage has larger margins depending on the character (Which is equivalent of switching races)
One issue with the stage counterpick (and also character counter pick) is that some matches like fox/puff come down to whoever wins the first match thus winning on their own counter picks. This likely won't be an issue with SC2 since the map/race probably will not be as lopsided as melee counter picks.
The counterpicks would probably be more stylistic and player dependent rather than one race hard countering another (compared to fox puff on pokemon stadium).
Reynor playing protoss has also been one of the most interesting storylines SC2 has had in a long time. Its driving viewership harder than we have seen in a while, and that is worth a lot -
That is true but it's rarity is part of the appeal. I still remember at Red Bull 2015 when Scarlett switched to protoss against Zerg during one game, amazing.
But I agree that CLEAR rules on how an when race switching is allowed should be instaured if only for fairness. As it is the current GSL no-no rules as the advantage of utter clarity.
P.S. More Protoss is always good for SC2 and for the world in general, let not discourage Reynor for embrassing the one true race!
I personally don't like it because i always think that there is an actual POC character that could be used instead. You could make a black Clark Kent ambiented in the 50's, sure, but why don't use Icon instead? I always think that. I also don't like the "Skin color isn't central to the character" because we all know that the same doesn't go the other way, and i'm not talking about white Black Panther or something like that, i'm talking about white Cyborg or white Kyle Rayner. https://www.routerlogin.net/ pikashow
On September 03 2022 14:54 aayushkm52 wrote: I personally don't like it because i always think that there is an actual POC character that could be used instead. You could make a black Clark Kent ambiented in the 50's, sure, but why don't use Icon instead? I always think that. I also don't like the "Skin color isn't central to the character" because we all know that the same doesn't go the other way, and i'm not talking about white Black Panther or something like that, i'm talking about white Cyborg or white Kyle Rayner.
This is quite an interpretation of the matter at hand.
On September 03 2022 14:54 aayushkm52 wrote: I personally don't like it because i always think that there is an actual POC character that could be used instead. You could make a black Clark Kent ambiented in the 50's, sure, but why don't use Icon instead? I always think that. I also don't like the "Skin color isn't central to the character" because we all know that the same doesn't go the other way, and i'm not talking about white Black Panther or something like that, i'm talking about white Cyborg or white Kyle Rayner.
I don't even think Reynor should be switching races, because playing too much Protoss will have effect on his Zerg gameplay.
But I'm of the opinion that tournaments should allow it and almost encourage it, it brings the hype and something extra that have been missing from SC2, simply because it's too hard to do. People still reference Scarlett vs DRG. Personally I don't think it was that great, but it garnered a lot of hype.
As I see it, you could play it out under our current rules like this: 1) Lock in Race at the start of the tournament. 2) Lock in Race at the start of the series. 3) Don't lock in Race at all.
There've been some non-arguments posed: You want to be able to prepare for the opponent. (Then prepare, do your job and scout what possible race the opponent could feasibly bring) You want to be able to veto for the opponent. (Then veto according to what you think the opponent can feasibly bring.) Not all maps are balanced, so one player is at an disadvantage. (Being able to switch makes it possible that players can circumvent possible imbalances. Remember, both players can do this.)
On September 03 2022 15:42 ejozl wrote: I don't even think Reynor should be switching races, because playing too much Protoss will have effect on his Zerg gameplay.
But I'm of the opinion that tournaments should allow it and almost encourage it, it brings the hype and something extra that have been missing from SC2, simply because it's too hard to do. People still reference Scarlett vs DRG. Personally I don't think it was that great, but it garnered a lot of hype.
As I see it, you could play it out under our current rules like this: 1) Lock in Race at the start of the tournament. 2) Lock in Race at the start of the series. 3) Don't lock in Race at all.
There are some non-arguments posed: You want to be able to prepare for the opponent. (Then prepare, do your job and scout what possible race the opponent could feasibly bring) You want to be able to veto for the opponent. (Then veto according to what you think the opponent can feasibly bring.) Not all maps are balanced, so one player is at an disadvantage. (Being able to switch makes it possible that players can circumvent possible imbalances. Remember, both players can do this.)
It's true that Reynor is probably hurting himself more with his Protoss antics than it's helping him so it's probably not the biggest deal in his case but I think people overestimate the amount of effort it takes to master 1 sniper build for a race. Just imagine Maru has to face a Protoss in a GSL finals and doesn't want to play on Stargazers, then Rogue teaches him a ZvP sniper build that Maru practices a few days. I mean, it's Maru so he will probably be able to execute it as well as possible and his opponent will have no way to prepare for it because Maru isn't known for offracing Zerg. In this scenario for example it would feel extremely unfair to just allow mid-series race-switching.
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Why make an unnecessary rule? Just let players do whatever they want that is within the game, unless it causes an actual problem rather than a make-believe one?
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
agreed 100%
"being a man" would be to let an opponent who has mastered multiple races use the skills they have developed. what, are we going to call out "nr 10" now?
On August 21 2022 11:41 Cricketer12 wrote: It's a competition. Why shouldn't you be allowed to use any and all resources in your arsenal? Any race at any time should be legal. It's like saying you can't 12 pool mid-series, either do it all series or not at all.
exactly!
Also, didn't scarlett swap to protoss in some big tournament and then everyone was like "oh this was the greatest coolest thing ever" ???
I wonder if we could take this fairness concept even further and say that not only should players be required to play the same race for the whole tournament, but maybe they should be required to also use the same build for the whole tournament. In a preparation based tournament like GSL, we wouldn't want anyone getting surprised by a build they weren't expecting which would lay all their preparation to waste.
But to be serious for a moment, it seems like this preparation argument cuts both ways, no? Why should one player's preparation of a build for a different race go to waste due to a rule preventing race-swapping? And to be clear, this isn't an argument about fairness, fairness really doesn't come into this. But it seems to me that allowing race-swapping, especially mid series, would increase the significance of preparation.
When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series.
On September 04 2022 16:32 Miyauchi Rin wrote: I wonder if we could take this fairness concept even further and say that not only should players be required to play the same race for the whole tournament, but maybe they should be required to also use the same build for the whole tournament. In a preparation based tournament like GSL, we wouldn't want anyone getting surprised by a build they weren't expecting which would lay all their preparation to waste.
But to be serious for a moment, it seems like this preparation argument cuts both ways, no? Why should one player's preparation of a build for a different race go to waste due to a rule preventing race-swapping? And to be clear, this isn't an argument about fairness, fairness really doesn't come into this. But it seems to me that allowing race-swapping, especially mid series, would increase the significance of preparation.
When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series.
You're going to dislocate something reaching that hard.
On September 04 2022 16:32 Miyauchi Rin wrote: When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series.
This is a misconception about preparation time. Time to prep is far more about players optimizing their own play/builds than it is about finding weaknesses in an opponent or coin flip builds. Prep time gives everyone the opportunity to play as close to their peak as possible. Weekend tournaments do not represent anyone's peak form because of the lack of prep time and all the non StarCraft related factors that are part of the matches. For evidence of how prep time is used just look at the hundreds of times players have been asked if they've prepared anything special/ for their opponents. The answer is basically always no.
On September 04 2022 16:32 Miyauchi Rin wrote: I wonder if we could take this fairness concept even further and say that not only should players be required to play the same race for the whole tournament, but maybe they should be required to also use the same build for the whole tournament. In a preparation based tournament like GSL, we wouldn't want anyone getting surprised by a build they weren't expecting which would lay all their preparation to waste.
But to be serious for a moment, it seems like this preparation argument cuts both ways, no? Why should one player's preparation of a build for a different race go to waste due to a rule preventing race-swapping? And to be clear, this isn't an argument about fairness, fairness really doesn't come into this. But it seems to me that allowing race-swapping, especially mid series, would increase the significance of preparation.
When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series.
You're going to dislocate something reaching that hard.
It's not a stretch at all. Tournaments shouldn't prevent players from selecting races, just as tournaments shouldn't arbitrarily restrict builds and strategies.
On September 04 2022 06:34 QOGQOG wrote: Not sure why we're still arguing about whether or not Reynor should get special treatment in a tournament he's already been eliminated from.
The change to GSL rules that we're talking about is to allow race switching between series and within series. The rule change applies to all players equally. There is no special treatment for Reynor.
On September 04 2022 06:34 QOGQOG wrote: Not sure why we're still arguing about whether or not Reynor should get special treatment in a tournament he's already been eliminated from.
The change to GSL rules that we're talking about is to allow race switching between series and within series. The rule change applies to all players equally. There is no special treatment for Reynor.
Wanting to change a rule to benefit one specific player is special treatment.
On September 04 2022 16:32 Miyauchi Rin wrote: I wonder if we could take this fairness concept even further and say that not only should players be required to play the same race for the whole tournament, but maybe they should be required to also use the same build for the whole tournament. In a preparation based tournament like GSL, we wouldn't want anyone getting surprised by a build they weren't expecting which would lay all their preparation to waste.
But to be serious for a moment, it seems like this preparation argument cuts both ways, no? Why should one player's preparation of a build for a different race go to waste due to a rule preventing race-swapping? And to be clear, this isn't an argument about fairness, fairness really doesn't come into this. But it seems to me that allowing race-swapping, especially mid series, would increase the significance of preparation.
When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series.
You're going to dislocate something reaching that hard.
It's not a stretch at all. Tournaments shouldn't prevent players from selecting races, just as tournaments shouldn't arbitrarily restrict builds and strategies.
I love that you're not even defending what the prior poster said, just stating that the thing people have been debating for the prior thread ought to be a certain way because... it ought to be a certain way. 10/10 rhetoric.
On September 04 2022 06:34 QOGQOG wrote: Not sure why we're still arguing about whether or not Reynor should get special treatment in a tournament he's already been eliminated from.
The change to GSL rules that we're talking about is to allow race switching between series and within series. The rule change applies to all players equally. There is no special treatment for Reynor.
Wanting to change a rule to benefit one specific player is special treatment.
On September 04 2022 16:32 Miyauchi Rin wrote: I wonder if we could take this fairness concept even further and say that not only should players be required to play the same race for the whole tournament, but maybe they should be required to also use the same build for the whole tournament. In a preparation based tournament like GSL, we wouldn't want anyone getting surprised by a build they weren't expecting which would lay all their preparation to waste.
But to be serious for a moment, it seems like this preparation argument cuts both ways, no? Why should one player's preparation of a build for a different race go to waste due to a rule preventing race-swapping? And to be clear, this isn't an argument about fairness, fairness really doesn't come into this. But it seems to me that allowing race-swapping, especially mid series, would increase the significance of preparation.
When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series.
You're going to dislocate something reaching that hard.
It's not a stretch at all. Tournaments shouldn't prevent players from selecting races, just as tournaments shouldn't arbitrarily restrict builds and strategies.
I love that you're not even defending what the prior poster said, just stating that the thing people have been debating for the prior thread ought to be a certain way because... it ought to be a certain way. 10/10 rhetoric.
Fwiw, it's not like this is just an argument about Reynor in this one tournament. This would be relevant to... all future tournaments where one might want to race swap?
But regardless, I don't know why anyone here thinks there's an objective right answer. There's nothing inherently wrong with a tournament wanting players to commit to a race. Nor is there anything inherently wrong with allowing free race swaps between games. Just like there's nothing inherently wrong with a tournament being single elim and double elim. They are just different. People and players may prefer one way over another, as might viewers, as might TOs. It's just a matter of preference. I personally think it's more reasonable to allow race swaps, at least on a per-set basis, but I come from a Smash background where character and map counterpicks were not uncommon.
I think the closest sport equivalent is baseball, where a pitcher can choose to pitch using the opposite hand, offering a potential advantage. But then when there's a switch hitter too, the rule now is that the pitcher must establish which they want to pitch, and the batter can then choose which they hit with I believe.
EPT
