EPTthey play 1on1. if you master 2 races, so be it.
An Honest Discussion on Mid-Series Race Swapping - Page 4
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
they play 1on1. if you master 2 races, so be it. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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kawaiidragon
5 Posts
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Tournament_rulesets_(SSBM)#1-on-1 1. The first match is played on one of the five neutral stages listed above. Which neutral stage is picked is determined by either stage striking, mutual agreement between players, random selection, or both. 2. For the first match, characters are chosen double-blind - at the same time, so that neither player knows their opponent's character beforehand. In practice, this rule is often ignored, but players always reserve the option to force a double-blind pick. 3. The loser of the first match (and of successive matches) chooses the next stage, and then the winner chooses their character, and then the loser chooses their character. This series of choices is called slob picks. a. The loser can pick either a neutral stage or a counterpick stage. b. The loser cannot choose any stage that they have already won on in the current set. This rule is known as "Dave's Stupid Rule", named after Scamp. c. The winner may ban one stage from the opponent's selection, except in best-of-5 sets. I think in melee the stage has larger margins depending on the character (Which is equivalent of switching races) One issue with the stage counterpick (and also character counter pick) is that some matches like fox/puff come down to whoever wins the first match thus winning on their own counter picks. This likely won't be an issue with SC2 since the map/race probably will not be as lopsided as melee counter picks. The counterpicks would probably be more stylistic and player dependent rather than one race hard countering another (compared to fox puff on pokemon stadium). | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On August 21 2022 04:09 BeoMulf wrote: Reynor playing protoss has also been one of the most interesting storylines SC2 has had in a long time. Its driving viewership harder than we have seen in a while, and that is worth a lot - That is true but it's rarity is part of the appeal. I still remember at Red Bull 2015 when Scarlett switched to protoss against Zerg during one game, amazing. But I agree that CLEAR rules on how an when race switching is allowed should be instaured if only for fairness. As it is the current GSL no-no rules as the advantage of utter clarity. P.S. More Protoss is always good for SC2 and for the world in general, let not discourage Reynor for embrassing the one true race! | ||
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aayushkm52
1 Post
https://www.routerlogin.net/ pikashow | ||
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
On September 03 2022 14:54 aayushkm52 wrote: I personally don't like it because i always think that there is an actual POC character that could be used instead. You could make a black Clark Kent ambiented in the 50's, sure, but why don't use Icon instead? I always think that. I also don't like the "Skin color isn't central to the character" because we all know that the same doesn't go the other way, and i'm not talking about white Black Panther or something like that, i'm talking about white Cyborg or white Kyle Rayner. This is quite an interpretation of the matter at hand. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
On September 03 2022 14:54 aayushkm52 wrote: I personally don't like it because i always think that there is an actual POC character that could be used instead. You could make a black Clark Kent ambiented in the 50's, sure, but why don't use Icon instead? I always think that. I also don't like the "Skin color isn't central to the character" because we all know that the same doesn't go the other way, and i'm not talking about white Black Panther or something like that, i'm talking about white Cyborg or white Kyle Rayner. *zing* | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3343 Posts
But I'm of the opinion that tournaments should allow it and almost encourage it, it brings the hype and something extra that have been missing from SC2, simply because it's too hard to do. People still reference Scarlett vs DRG. Personally I don't think it was that great, but it garnered a lot of hype. As I see it, you could play it out under our current rules like this: 1) Lock in Race at the start of the tournament. 2) Lock in Race at the start of the series. 3) Don't lock in Race at all. There've been some non-arguments posed: You want to be able to prepare for the opponent. (Then prepare, do your job and scout what possible race the opponent could feasibly bring) You want to be able to veto for the opponent. (Then veto according to what you think the opponent can feasibly bring.) Not all maps are balanced, so one player is at an disadvantage. (Being able to switch makes it possible that players can circumvent possible imbalances. Remember, both players can do this.) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15913 Posts
On September 03 2022 15:42 ejozl wrote: I don't even think Reynor should be switching races, because playing too much Protoss will have effect on his Zerg gameplay. But I'm of the opinion that tournaments should allow it and almost encourage it, it brings the hype and something extra that have been missing from SC2, simply because it's too hard to do. People still reference Scarlett vs DRG. Personally I don't think it was that great, but it garnered a lot of hype. As I see it, you could play it out under our current rules like this: 1) Lock in Race at the start of the tournament. 2) Lock in Race at the start of the series. 3) Don't lock in Race at all. There are some non-arguments posed: You want to be able to prepare for the opponent. (Then prepare, do your job and scout what possible race the opponent could feasibly bring) You want to be able to veto for the opponent. (Then veto according to what you think the opponent can feasibly bring.) Not all maps are balanced, so one player is at an disadvantage. (Being able to switch makes it possible that players can circumvent possible imbalances. Remember, both players can do this.) It's true that Reynor is probably hurting himself more with his Protoss antics than it's helping him so it's probably not the biggest deal in his case but I think people overestimate the amount of effort it takes to master 1 sniper build for a race. Just imagine Maru has to face a Protoss in a GSL finals and doesn't want to play on Stargazers, then Rogue teaches him a ZvP sniper build that Maru practices a few days. I mean, it's Maru so he will probably be able to execute it as well as possible and his opponent will have no way to prepare for it because Maru isn't known for offracing Zerg. In this scenario for example it would feel extremely unfair to just allow mid-series race-switching. | ||
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dph114
30 Posts
On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote: I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then." If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. agreed 100% | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
"being a man" would be to let an opponent who has mastered multiple races use the skills they have developed. what, are we going to call out "nr 10" now? On August 21 2022 11:41 Cricketer12 wrote: It's a competition. Why shouldn't you be allowed to use any and all resources in your arsenal? Any race at any time should be legal. It's like saying you can't 12 pool mid-series, either do it all series or not at all. exactly! Also, didn't scarlett swap to protoss in some big tournament and then everyone was like "oh this was the greatest coolest thing ever" ??? | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
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Miyauchi Rin
5 Posts
But to be serious for a moment, it seems like this preparation argument cuts both ways, no? Why should one player's preparation of a build for a different race go to waste due to a rule preventing race-swapping? And to be clear, this isn't an argument about fairness, fairness really doesn't come into this. But it seems to me that allowing race-swapping, especially mid series, would increase the significance of preparation. When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On September 04 2022 16:32 Miyauchi Rin wrote: I wonder if we could take this fairness concept even further and say that not only should players be required to play the same race for the whole tournament, but maybe they should be required to also use the same build for the whole tournament. In a preparation based tournament like GSL, we wouldn't want anyone getting surprised by a build they weren't expecting which would lay all their preparation to waste. But to be serious for a moment, it seems like this preparation argument cuts both ways, no? Why should one player's preparation of a build for a different race go to waste due to a rule preventing race-swapping? And to be clear, this isn't an argument about fairness, fairness really doesn't come into this. But it seems to me that allowing race-swapping, especially mid series, would increase the significance of preparation. When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series. You're going to dislocate something reaching that hard. | ||
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JJH777
United States4391 Posts
On September 04 2022 16:32 Miyauchi Rin wrote: When we talk about the significance of preparation in GSL, what we're really saying is that it's a bit more rock-paper-scissory than weekend tournaments. In weekend tournaments you don't have much time to study your opponent and create a style to counter them, so it's best to be all around solid. It's unlikely someone will suddenly pull out a build you've never seen before. But in a preparation based tournament, someone may surprise you with something designed to specifically exploit a weakness in your play. It seems to me that race-swapping fits in quite well with that spirit, even mid series. This is a misconception about preparation time. Time to prep is far more about players optimizing their own play/builds than it is about finding weaknesses in an opponent or coin flip builds. Prep time gives everyone the opportunity to play as close to their peak as possible. Weekend tournaments do not represent anyone's peak form because of the lack of prep time and all the non StarCraft related factors that are part of the matches. For evidence of how prep time is used just look at the hundreds of times players have been asked if they've prepared anything special/ for their opponents. The answer is basically always no. | ||
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warnull
United States280 Posts
On September 04 2022 23:50 QOGQOG wrote: You're going to dislocate something reaching that hard. It's not a stretch at all. Tournaments shouldn't prevent players from selecting races, just as tournaments shouldn't arbitrarily restrict builds and strategies. | ||
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warnull
United States280 Posts
On September 04 2022 06:34 QOGQOG wrote: Not sure why we're still arguing about whether or not Reynor should get special treatment in a tournament he's already been eliminated from. The change to GSL rules that we're talking about is to allow race switching between series and within series. The rule change applies to all players equally. There is no special treatment for Reynor. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On September 05 2022 07:13 warnull wrote: The change to GSL rules that we're talking about is to allow race switching between series and within series. The rule change applies to all players equally. There is no special treatment for Reynor. Wanting to change a rule to benefit one specific player is special treatment. On September 05 2022 07:07 warnull wrote: It's not a stretch at all. Tournaments shouldn't prevent players from selecting races, just as tournaments shouldn't arbitrarily restrict builds and strategies. I love that you're not even defending what the prior poster said, just stating that the thing people have been debating for the prior thread ought to be a certain way because... it ought to be a certain way. 10/10 rhetoric. | ||
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
On September 05 2022 07:43 QOGQOG wrote: Wanting to change a rule to benefit one specific player is special treatment. I love that you're not even defending what the prior poster said, just stating that the thing people have been debating for the prior thread ought to be a certain way because... it ought to be a certain way. 10/10 rhetoric. Fwiw, it's not like this is just an argument about Reynor in this one tournament. This would be relevant to... all future tournaments where one might want to race swap? But regardless, I don't know why anyone here thinks there's an objective right answer. There's nothing inherently wrong with a tournament wanting players to commit to a race. Nor is there anything inherently wrong with allowing free race swaps between games. Just like there's nothing inherently wrong with a tournament being single elim and double elim. They are just different. People and players may prefer one way over another, as might viewers, as might TOs. It's just a matter of preference. I personally think it's more reasonable to allow race swaps, at least on a per-set basis, but I come from a Smash background where character and map counterpicks were not uncommon. I think the closest sport equivalent is baseball, where a pitcher can choose to pitch using the opposite hand, offering a potential advantage. But then when there's a switch hitter too, the rule now is that the pitcher must establish which they want to pitch, and the batter can then choose which they hit with I believe. | ||
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