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I think players should be allowed to switch races even between maps, but have to Pick those blindly before map pick/ ban
It s not coinflipy but becomes Part of the mindestens games/ Strategie instead.
In AoE2 / AoE4 people have to play a different race on every map and knowing what race the oponent prefers on wich map is a big Part of the competition
It even enforces preperation and studying of your opponent even further.
There maps are usually decided by losers Pick instead before the match and players Pick the map first and then the race. I Don t think that would work for SC2 though, because the maps are more similar and the races are more different here, so you would still Pick the Aspect, that is more diverse first
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Given how it has had minimal impact on competitive play thus far, I don't really see it being a problem. I do think that you should at least commit per map for the sake of vetoes though.
There's nothing stopping others from learning other races for their matchups either. The fact that random exists sort of encourages this idea.
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racepicking is actually more traditional.
i think it should be allowed as long as the player states his race before the match and stays with it. why not.
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On August 21 2022 04:13 Poopi wrote:
Switching mid series should not be allowed since it messes up with the vetoes, but swapping race during a tournament could be allowed and I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as the opponents know which race they meet early enough.
full agree
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Swapping series to series with race commit before vetoes - fine.
Swapping mid series - not fine.
I like angry_maia's idea of having a "main" race - and if you want to swap you have to be the one to declare and allow your opponent to counter. Even if only because it allows you the chance of reasonable counter-prep.
I think fixed race per series is important, in part because of map balance (choosing a race for each map when the maps are not all 50/50 for each matchup seems silly to me), and in part to encourage solid prep.
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On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
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On August 21 2022 19:05 TheCheapSkate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho.
Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
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On August 21 2022 20:10 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 19:05 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho. Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly?
Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro.
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On August 21 2022 20:35 TheCheapSkate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 20:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 21 2022 19:05 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho. Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly? Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro.
It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse.
If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win.
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I don't know why people are acting like it's lame, or cowardly, or disrespectful to be good at multiple races. It's fine if you think people should have to commit to a race, but there's no objective reason why that's better or worse. You just don't like the idea of players needing to play multiple races. Fortunately, all evidence shows that you don't need to play multiple races to win, and there have been very few cases where it made much of an impact. Reynor is one of the few examples, with Scarlett and a couple others having done it before.
When people play competitive Smash Bros, or Street Fighter, it's really quite common for players to have multiple characters and sometimes characters solely for a matchup. In those cases, it's obviously near impossible to have pair-wise balance between ever character, but the reasoning behind it is still the same. Players have the ability to play any race, and consequently, can take advantage of that if they do not like, or do not feel even with the matchup.
If you think a player should not be able to change due to "balance" or whatever, you should also argue that Random shouldn't exist. Because, you know, in theory, they are at an advantage from having the possibility of all 3 races!! Of course it's harder to learn 3 races, and even harder to prepare for 3 for any given map. But that's not relevant to the argument, clearly.
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On August 21 2022 21:04 RDO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 20:35 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 20:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 21 2022 19:05 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho. Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly? Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro. It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win.
Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
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On August 21 2022 21:37 TheCheapSkate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 21:04 RDO wrote:On August 21 2022 20:35 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 20:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 21 2022 19:05 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho. Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly? Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro. It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win. Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
No, the more logical reason why they didn't agree to it is because they clearly didn't want to face someone who plays two different races and that it would only benefit their potential opponent (Reynor). And it's not unfair and disrespectful if every player is given the same opportunity, which they would be.
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I believe we should advocate for more freedom and creativity until a real problem emerges.
So, unless the tournament is based on extensive preparation, such as the GSL, I think that every player should be able to change races at any time during the series.
Otherwise, the race selection for each series should simply be agreed upon in advance.
People who complain about the small advantage it gives you over map vetoes are the same players who complain about a random opponent.
They seem unaware of the amount of training and skill required to be at the top with multiple races.
Until Reynor started doing it, everything indicated that mastering multiple races competitively was too difficult and not worth the effort.
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On August 21 2022 21:47 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 21:37 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 21:04 RDO wrote:On August 21 2022 20:35 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 20:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 21 2022 19:05 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho. Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly? Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro. It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win. Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids? No, the more logical reason why they didn't agree to it is because they clearly didn't want to face someone who plays two different races and that it would only benefit their potential opponent (Reynor). And it's not unfair and disrespectful if every player is given the same opportunity, which they would be.
Given that koreans never had an incentive to practice their offraces as race-picking has always been forbidden in the GSL it's only in theory true that every player is given the same opportunity.
I understand that they don't think the rules should be bended to the will of one player.
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On August 21 2022 21:37 TheCheapSkate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 21:04 RDO wrote:On August 21 2022 20:35 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 20:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 21 2022 19:05 TheCheapSkate wrote:On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance. Agree with this 100%. I think its cowardly and disrespectful towards the opponent. I don't mind race switching in between series tho. Bro what? How is using what you have at your disposal cowardly? Its explained nicely by the person I quoted bro. It's "explained" but it's wrong. The assumptions about disrespect and cowardice are just that: assumptions. And not even on game level, but on a personal level too, which is even worse. If you are skilled enough to be that good with two of three races instead of one, you should be able to gain an edge, if it's there. It's a competition, not a petty fight between 8 years old kids. They are supposed to do everything in their power to win. Yes it's a competition, and competitions have rules. Switching race on a whim mid series is unfair and disrespectful because it messes up the map vetoes. There is a reason the pros in Korea didn't agree to it. Or are you saying they are all petty 8-year old kids?
Really throwing me for a loop with the "disrespectful" comment. They aren't shittalking the opponent. They are using a strategy in their arsenal. Is Maru disrespectful when he proxy rax?
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On August 21 2022 03:37 Elentos wrote:
I just think it's cheap more than anything to have race switching mid-series. "Oh, it's not working like I wanted? Well let me fall back to my main race then."
If you're gonna clown around, be a man and commit to your clowning for the entire series in advance.
This is not a good argument. Is it dishonourable and un-manly to cheese game one and macro the rest of the series or vice versa? People frequently switch strategies when they find one is not working. Imo that would be a sign of strength rather than weakness. Also, I don't think Reynor is just "clowning around." I'm pretty sure he genuinely thinks his PvZ is better than his ZvZ.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash.
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On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash.
It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race.
And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces.
There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace.
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I am fine with race switching between series in weekend tournaments where there is no prep time. I am not fine with it in the GSL or any other prep tournament, like the WTL. Different tournaments have different formats and gimmicks that makes them unique and it should be keep like that.
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On August 22 2022 01:14 RDO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2022 01:08 [Phantom] wrote:
Race swarpping is completely unfair.
GSL is based around preparing for at least a week agaisnt an opponent.
Then you're telling me that it's fair for Player A to prepare agaisnt Player B, and then suddently it turns out player B is going to play Race X instead of Y so all the prep Player A did is wirthless, and in the meantime Player B is able to prepare much better because he knew what race he'd be playing?
Not fair at all.
Want to play multiple races? Switch to random like Flash. It's pretty simple: if you know your opponent might play two races, you prepare for both. Is it harder? Yes, that's one deserved advantage for the player who actually put time, effort and skill getting really good in another race. And let's not pretend like "suddenly" switch races would going to happen out of nowhere in a big tournament for players with 6k offraces. There's absolutely nothing unfair in switching races, the fact that GSL is based around preparing doesn't mean they cant prepare for two races if the opponent is good enough to be a legit contender with his offrace.
It's not that hard for a pro to prepare 1 specific build on a single map with an offrace. It's extremely hard for a player to prepare for that scenario if they won't know which map until minutes before the game. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty of getting a specific matchup and build to the level of their opponents main race.
Granted that what I'm describing isn't exactly what Reynor's doing but it would happen if this was a part of all tournaments and there's a reason it's been against the rules in starleagues forever.
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EPT
