On December 16 2020 00:25 ilax30 wrote: Only fair if gsl would make it easier for foreigners to play in it then as well if we are removing region lock no?
So what would you suggest that doesn't attack the prestige of the competition? By which I mean what's a good solution that doesn't enable cross server play, doesn't include outright invites and doesn't condense the tournament's entire schedule into about 3 weeks?
Well, you make it sound like mission impossible. You're a smart guy and if you can't figure our a solution, I wonder who can.
But then, as a matter of principle, if foreigners cannot enter GSLs due to Corona and other difficulties due to the format, the GSLs should not be awarded EPT points on a global ranking. Or we have two sets of EPT points again, which at least I don't think is a good solution.
i don't see the problem. from what they said, spots will clearly still be regional like in 2020
Yeah you are right. I was hoping we'd have one point system, but with regional allocations the points seem to be only important on a regional level, not a global. The problem is rather with the direct seeds to the global final that players from EU/NA cannot compete for in the GSLs, although Koreans can compete for the direct seeds in GSL as well as DH (if I understand it correctly).
1) GSL is open for anyone to participate so your statement that foreigners cant compete for the points and direct seeds in GSL is a lie
2) On the other hand the regional foreigner tournaments require regional passports so it actually the complete opposite of what you are claiming. Koreans are region locked from foreign regional but foreigners are not and were never region locked from GSL (which is basically korean regional)
3) Its only natural that GSL, the highest level of competition in the world gives direct seeds. It should even have a lot more funding and award more points to be completely fair because the skill disparity between EU/AMER regional and GSL is still huge, but well... Its also understandable that ESL pro tour would be a bit foreigner biased and would focus their funding on foreign regionals since GSL is funded by other means as well
Liar liar pants on fire!
I didn't say foreigners were banned from participating in GSL, I said they can't - based on previous experience. Of course, several foreigners have stayed in KR for months and participated in GSL, but foreigners have never had the chance to participate through online qualifiers or over a weekend in a similar manner as the DHs have been played out. Fair enough?
...and yes, let's give the money for free to those players that you like and feel deserve it, because that is only fair and natural. Jeez, that is such an illogical argument. Let everyone earn their points and money in an as fair as possible manner I say. If the region lock is truly removed, this should be possible, but for all the statement about the region lock is removed, it sure looks like there is plenty of region lock left. Either per rules or de facto region locks.
Its not really fair enough. You are comparing apples with oranges. GSL = Foreign regionals. Both served as qualifiers to Global finals. And only 1 of them was region locked. From the new season, nothing changes. Foreign regionals still require regional passport = region lock. Whereas anyone can play GSL, they just need to travel there, but its still an advantage for foreigners here.
The advantage for Koreans is that GSL awards spots for Katowice, as it should be, its the top competition. Its like champions league compared to Europa league, the skill and prestige difference is enormous. Despite that, foreigners are given another advantage with increased prize pool (might be even bigger prize pool for foreign regionals combined than for GSL not sure but GSL does not get any additional funding from ESL, right?). So foreigners get the money, koreans get the spots. I would say its even here, which is good for foreigners considering GSL is next level.
All in all, its more fair than before with the global finals changes and focus on offline play, but foreigners still have a few advantages. Your arguments are trying to point to the contrary, which is simply false, no matter if you use a term cant or banned, or another one.
It says DH -> 3 slots, GSL 3 slots, DH last chance 1 slot. It says nowhere that foreign regionals will earn a slot. So koreans can easily compete for 7 direct qualifiers, and foreigners easily only for 4. Isn't that correct?
That is correct. And fair, due to the points already highlighted, see no point in repeating myself. What I had a problem with is that you tried to swell the discussion into "its advantageaus for koreans" waters by using unrelated incorrect arguments to support your point. (foreigners cant compete in GSL)
On December 16 2020 00:25 ilax30 wrote: Only fair if gsl would make it easier for foreigners to play in it then as well if we are removing region lock no?
So what would you suggest that doesn't attack the prestige of the competition? By which I mean what's a good solution that doesn't enable cross server play, doesn't include outright invites and doesn't condense the tournament's entire schedule into about 3 weeks?
Well, you make it sound like mission impossible. You're a smart guy and if you can't figure our a solution, I wonder who can.
But then, as a matter of principle, if foreigners cannot enter GSLs due to Corona and other difficulties due to the format, the GSLs should not be awarded EPT points on a global ranking. Or we have two sets of EPT points again, which at least I don't think is a good solution.
i don't see the problem. from what they said, spots will clearly still be regional like in 2020
Yeah you are right. I was hoping we'd have one point system, but with regional allocations the points seem to be only important on a regional level, not a global. The problem is rather with the direct seeds to the global final that players from EU/NA cannot compete for in the GSLs, although Koreans can compete for the direct seeds in GSL as well as DH (if I understand it correctly).
1) GSL is open for anyone to participate so your statement that foreigners cant compete for the points and direct seeds in GSL is a lie
2) On the other hand the regional foreigner tournaments require regional passports so it actually the complete opposite of what you are claiming. Koreans are region locked from foreign regional but foreigners are not and were never region locked from GSL (which is basically korean regional)
3) Its only natural that GSL, the highest level of competition in the world gives direct seeds. It should even have a lot more funding and award more points to be completely fair because the skill disparity between EU/AMER regional and GSL is still huge, but well... Its also understandable that ESL pro tour would be a bit foreigner biased and would focus their funding on foreign regionals since GSL is funded by other means as well
Liar liar pants on fire!
I didn't say foreigners were banned from participating in GSL, I said they can't - based on previous experience. Of course, several foreigners have stayed in KR for months and participated in GSL, but foreigners have never had the chance to participate through online qualifiers or over a weekend in a similar manner as the DHs have been played out. Fair enough?
...and yes, let's give the money for free to those players that you like and feel deserve it, because that is only fair and natural. Jeez, that is such an illogical argument. Let everyone earn their points and money in an as fair as possible manner I say. If the region lock is truly removed, this should be possible, but for all the statement about the region lock is removed, it sure looks like there is plenty of region lock left. Either per rules or de facto region locks.
Its not really fair enough. You are comparing apples with oranges. GSL = Foreign regionals. Both served as qualifiers to Global finals. And only 1 of them was region locked. From the new season, nothing changes. Foreign regionals still require regional passport = region lock. Whereas anyone can play GSL, they just need to travel there, but its still an advantage for foreigners here.
The advantage for Koreans is that GSL awards spots for Katowice, as it should be, its the top competition. Its like champions league compared to Europa league, the skill and prestige difference is enormous. Despite that, foreigners are given another advantage with increased prize pool (might be even bigger prize pool for foreign regionals combined than for GSL not sure but GSL does not get any additional funding from ESL, right?). So foreigners get the money, koreans get the spots. I would say its even here, which is good for foreigners considering GSL is next level.
All in all, its more fair than before with the global finals changes and focus on offline play, but foreigners still have a few advantages. Your arguments are trying to point to the contrary, which is simply false, no matter if you use a term cant or banned, or another one.
It says DH -> 3 slots, GSL 3 slots, DH last chance 1 slot. It says nowhere that foreign regionals will earn a slot. So koreans can easily compete for 7 direct qualifiers, and foreigners easily only for 4. Isn't that correct?
That is correct. And fair, due to the points already highlighted, see no point in repeating myself. What I had a problem with is that you tried to swell the discussion into "its advantageaus for koreans" waters by using unrelated incorrect arguments to support your point. (foreigners cant compete in GSL)
lol ok. I agree 100% with you one point: there is no need for you to repeat yourself.
Will add this feedback in the survey when time comes: I feel like "Last Chance" should be renamed for "Final Edition" or something along those lines, though. It is a bit confusing to see Serral, Reynor and Clem still fight for "spots" in Last Chance. But I understand for more $$$ and higher seeding. It's just not what I imagined when I saw the announcement several weeks ago about Last Chance.
On December 16 2020 02:17 Waxangel wrote: I think it's funny that ESL accidentally fell into having no anti-Korean region-lock this year, and none of the Korean elitists really noticed .
Instead, we basically had a system with a FULL region lock in 2020, with players being protected inside of the six EPT regions + GSL. Ironically, it was only third party tournament TSL that voluntarily kept the old, anti-Korean region-lock in place with its separated qualifiers.
Realistically speaking, we're not going to see the effect of a true, open-region EPT until 2022, when they shift the focus of tournaments away from EPT regionals and back to live DreamHack Open events. 2021 Is only going to have one such event (it seems), and even that may not happen at all if COVID continues to be a global issue.
TSL's "anti-korean" region lock wasn't really that bad since non koreans couldn't participate in both koreans and non korean qualifiers; instead of many regionals, there basically were korean qualifiers as opposed to World minus Korea qualifiers; in TSL 6 especially, the number of spots reserved to koreans seemed to be adequate. If every region is locked, and COVID locked Korea, it's all fair.
Ah whoops, good point about TSL6, I was thinking about it wrong. Cheers to 2020, then, the almost fully region locked year
I'll refrain from engaging in any suspicious-faith arguments about how the GSL should be
On December 16 2020 02:27 Charoisaur wrote: seems like Serral time is over
See? It IS always the haters and korena elitist who bring him up in every and all threads not even remotely connected. Thank you for making a fine point here Charo. There are still some BW threads you can mention how bad Serral is I believe
On December 16 2020 17:38 Durnuu wrote: Charoisaur vs Xain0n round 5438 pls
What's the score?
After reading again carefully, I do like this system. Korea may be favored because they have more chances, but it would still involve flying out, then delivering a godlike performance, maybe even jetlagged, to secure the direct spots. Yes, it's a shorter amount of time than a foreigner playing Code S, but still a huge commitment.
ESL Winter finals says Atlanta... do we know the other planned stops?
On December 16 2020 00:25 ilax30 wrote: Only fair if gsl would make it easier for foreigners to play in it then as well if we are removing region lock no?
So what would you suggest that doesn't attack the prestige of the competition? By which I mean what's a good solution that doesn't enable cross server play, doesn't include outright invites and doesn't condense the tournament's entire schedule into about 3 weeks?
In the new system, Code S will feature: - 8 players from Code A - 4 players from Super Tournament - 4 players from qualifiers
I suggest to make the qualifiers online and open to everybody. Qualified players would still need to travel to Korea to compete in Code S in person, but the prize money should be more than enough to cover transportation + accommodation even if they drop out in the first round (prize money for GSL ro16 in 2020 was $4000).
Personally, it would be interesting to see whether the top foreigners can manage to qualify for Code S or whether the Koreans pros can defend their home turf.
Sounds great imo. Mixing regional qualifiers with an open bracket is the best way of ensuring tough competition while still giving some chances to less strong regions.
On December 16 2020 02:27 Charoisaur wrote: seems like Serral time is over
See? It IS always the haters and korena elitist who bring him up in every and all threads not even remotely connected. Thank you for making a fine point here Charo. There are still some BW threads you can mention how bad Serral is I believe
not even remotely connected? The topic is region-lock. How is Serral not even remotely connected to it when he was the main beneficiary of that system?
and I'm a hater/korean elitist just because I don't think farming region-locked events makes Serral the GOAT?
On December 16 2020 02:27 Charoisaur wrote: seems like Serral time is over
See? It IS always the haters and korena elitist who bring him up in every and all threads not even remotely connected. Thank you for making a fine point here Charo. There are still some BW threads you can mention how bad Serral is I believe
not even remotely connected? The topic is region-lock. How is Serral not even remotely connected to it when he was the main beneficiary of that system?
and I'm a hater/korean elitist just because I don't think farming region-locked events makes Serral the GOAT?
No, you are a korean elitist because you think foreign tournaments are worth nothing in comparison to korean ones and you are a hater because you openly support "making fun of Serral when he loses", if you aren't doing it yourself.
ESL announced their plans for the EPT season 2021/2022, which include a partial uplift of region lock; Serral in particular has nothing to do with them. Once that you speak of Serral, however, you are implying that a player who is 7-2 in finals of international tournaments labeled as Premier(and also won 3 Major HSC events) that had korean presence, as opposed to 6-4 in EU/WCS titles, is "farming region locked events"?
On December 16 2020 00:25 ilax30 wrote: Only fair if gsl would make it easier for foreigners to play in it then as well if we are removing region lock no?
So what would you suggest that doesn't attack the prestige of the competition? By which I mean what's a good solution that doesn't enable cross server play, doesn't include outright invites and doesn't condense the tournament's entire schedule into about 3 weeks?
In the new system, Code S will feature: - 8 players from Code A - 4 players from Super Tournament - 4 players from qualifiers
I suggest to make the qualifiers online and open to everybody. Qualified players would still need to travel to Korea to compete in Code S in person, but the prize money should be more than enough to cover transportation + accommodation even if they drop out in the first round (prize money for GSL ro16 in 2020 was $4000).
Personally, it would be interesting to see whether the top foreigners can manage to qualify for Code S or whether the Koreans pros can defend their home turf.
I realy realy like that Idear It would also make Code S more accesible for non- Korean -residents, Lifting the Soft Region lock for the GLOBAL SC2 League
On December 17 2020 00:31 Charoisaur wrote: and I'm a hater/korean elitist just because I don't think farming region-locked events makes Serral the GOAT?
that's way too obvious of an attempt of setting up the strawman, you can do better, and yes you are a hater, which I pointed to you a few times after you couldn't contain your emotions and spat out poor taste opinions all over this forum.There is no point in denying it really, i'm more interested in how you plan to get out of it.
On December 16 2020 00:25 ilax30 wrote: Only fair if gsl would make it easier for foreigners to play in it then as well if we are removing region lock no?
So what would you suggest that doesn't attack the prestige of the competition? By which I mean what's a good solution that doesn't enable cross server play, doesn't include outright invites and doesn't condense the tournament's entire schedule into about 3 weeks?
In the new system, Code S will feature: - 8 players from Code A - 4 players from Super Tournament - 4 players from qualifiers
I suggest to make the qualifiers online and open to everybody. Qualified players would still need to travel to Korea to compete in Code S in person, but the prize money should be more than enough to cover transportation + accommodation even if they drop out in the first round (prize money for GSL ro16 in 2020 was $4000).
Personally, it would be interesting to see whether the top foreigners can manage to qualify for Code S or whether the Koreans pros can defend their home turf.
This is only fair if every qualifier match is played on the Korean server (unless there just happens to be a match without a player based around Asian servers). It's still the regional tournament for the Korean region that decides the majority of its standings and so the players from the region should be advantaged 100% of the time. That's the bare minimum as long as Korea is treated as being different from all other regions (nobody expects NA players to be allowed to play EU regionals without residency).
On December 16 2020 00:25 ilax30 wrote: Only fair if gsl would make it easier for foreigners to play in it then as well if we are removing region lock no?
So what would you suggest that doesn't attack the prestige of the competition? By which I mean what's a good solution that doesn't enable cross server play, doesn't include outright invites and doesn't condense the tournament's entire schedule into about 3 weeks?
In the new system, Code S will feature: - 8 players from Code A - 4 players from Super Tournament - 4 players from qualifiers
I suggest to make the qualifiers online and open to everybody. Qualified players would still need to travel to Korea to compete in Code S in person, but the prize money should be more than enough to cover transportation + accommodation even if they drop out in the first round (prize money for GSL ro16 in 2020 was $4000).
Personally, it would be interesting to see whether the top foreigners can manage to qualify for Code S or whether the Koreans pros can defend their home turf.
This is only fair if every qualifier match is played on the Korean server (unless there just happens to be a match without a player based around Asian servers). It's still the regional tournament for the Korean region that decides the majority of its standings and so the players from the region should be advantaged 100% of the time. That's the bare minimum as long as Korea is treated as being different from all other regions (nobody expects NA players to be allowed to play EU regionals without residency).
Agreed, not sure how "let's reduce region locking" turned into "let's make things even harder on Koreans for no reason."
On December 16 2020 00:25 ilax30 wrote: Only fair if gsl would make it easier for foreigners to play in it then as well if we are removing region lock no?
So what would you suggest that doesn't attack the prestige of the competition? By which I mean what's a good solution that doesn't enable cross server play, doesn't include outright invites and doesn't condense the tournament's entire schedule into about 3 weeks?
In the new system, Code S will feature: - 8 players from Code A - 4 players from Super Tournament - 4 players from qualifiers
I suggest to make the qualifiers online and open to everybody. Qualified players would still need to travel to Korea to compete in Code S in person, but the prize money should be more than enough to cover transportation + accommodation even if they drop out in the first round (prize money for GSL ro16 in 2020 was $4000).
Personally, it would be interesting to see whether the top foreigners can manage to qualify for Code S or whether the Koreans pros can defend their home turf.
This is only fair if every qualifier match is played on the Korean server (unless there just happens to be a match without a player based around Asian servers). It's still the regional tournament for the Korean region that decides the majority of its standings and so the players from the region should be advantaged 100% of the time. That's the bare minimum as long as Korea is treated as being different from all other regions (nobody expects NA players to be allowed to play EU regionals without residency).
Yeah, the strange thing this year is that the GSL is treated like a qualifier to the DH seasonal finals similar like the DH regional finals. Just as GSL3, the EU regional final for DH Winter gave a higher reward in terms of EPT and moneys compared to the DH winter season final. This made everything weird. You'd think that if you qualify for a season final that the final would have even higher stakes somehow... Probably it would be good for ESL to go back to the drawing board and see how everything fits together at some point.
On December 16 2020 04:03 JJH777 wrote: Why are people acting like foreigners can't play in GSL? I mean with COVID travel restrictions that's true but there's a very real chance that by the time of the first GSL next year the travel restrictions will be more relaxed. Before COVID tons of foreigners played in GSL every year. They can even still participate in their regional events since they are online. Depending on what group of GSL they are in (if they even qualify) they can even go back home either between the qualifiers and their first group or between their first group and the ro16. Since there's typically around a month between one of those things. Then they can make the decision to stay or not based on whether they advance each round. It's not this impossible thing a lot of the foreigner biased fans in this thread are arguing.
Not a tons no. Especially from Europe the region which produced the best foreigners have very few participation in gsl for pretty obvious reasons that you don't seem able to identify. Staying in a country for more than not one but two months for one tournament is ridiculous considering the money in line, it's just not worth it unless you're settling in the country. And the fact you have to settle in a country to participate in the different seasons of this tournament is an effective region lock. Arguing that this limitation doesn't work as a region lock is quite a fallacy. Even the world cups last least long while most of them have way more means. I don't really see the reasons why the GLOBAL Starcraft League shouldn't have a format which provides an easier access to foreigners if there is a removal of the region lock but it appears without too much surprise that korean elitists are not really interested by fairness. The strange thing is that it's definetely the foreign scene and not Korean's one which maintained sc2 competition but in their blind fanboyism, some like you want the former to disappear.
EPT
Jeez, that is such an illogical argument. Let everyone earn their points and money in an as fair as possible manner I say. If the region lock is truly removed, this should be possible, but for all the statement about the region lock is removed, it sure looks like there is plenty of region lock left. Either per rules or de facto region locks. 
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