EPTFEAR THE SWARM
Starcraft 2 shouldn't have medics - Page 3
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Mutaahh
Netherlands859 Posts
FEAR THE SWARM | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 07 2007 08:42 Klockan3 wrote: There will most likely be some way to heal your marines, but i would not count on a strong combat heal like medics will be in the game, especially now that marines is stronger than before wich means that they wont necesarily need medics to be viable. Out of combat heal means that you can use stim in battles, but not all of the time and at a cost. And as many have said, medics are just a bandaid to fix terrans earlygame and general lack of open combat strength. Lastly mnm is extremely strong when microed, while theyre pretty weak when not, wich is the main reason blizzard wont have them in the same form again. Basic units shouldnt be micro heavy units, if we follow blizzards own philosophy, the later in the game you get the harder the micro should get also meaning that a new player should be able to hold of a pro the first minutes since the game is easy then, but the longer it takes the more obvious the skill difference gets. This is COMPLETE and UTTER bullshit, if I'm 10 times better than my opponent he should die to my first attack, not artifically live on because there's no micro.. (With micro heavy, then i mean that the difference between not microing and microing is extreme, like for casters) If defilers were tier 1, cheap and autocasted miniswarms on zerglings and ultras only then you could have a point. As it is now defilers arent frontline units, they are easily killed for their cost, theyre hightier and have expensive but gamechanging spells, just like a caster should be. If we upped the price and tech on medics, made all of its spells much more powerfull, removed autocast on heal but made it aoe and it heals infantry to full for maybe 75 mana, made blind aoe, and made restore aoe, then i could see the unit staying as a caster unit, but in the current form as moving wall addons to marines they are quite dumb and makes the marines counter to many things. It makes the marines the backbone of TvZ, nothing else -_- Remove dragoons = fine. Make the siege tank barely useable vs the new goons due to some strange shield = fine. Remove arbiter = fine. Remove medic = NOT FINE. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On July 07 2007 09:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: This is COMPLETE and UTTER bullshit, if I'm 10 times better than my opponent he should die to my first attack, not artifically live on because there's no micro.. Tell that to zerg and toss players, who have low micro starting units. It makes the marines the backbone of TvZ, nothing else -_- Remove dragoons = fine. Make the siege tank barely useable vs the new goons due to some strange shield = fine. Remove arbiter = fine. Remove medic = NOT FINE. Why not? Just beacuse you play terran and is in love with the medic that creates warcraft like micro? | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 07 2007 09:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: [QUOTE]On July 07 2007 08:42 Klockan3 wrote: There will most likely be some way to heal your marines, but i would not count on a strong combat heal like medics will be in the game, especially now that marines is stronger than before wich means that they wont necesarily need medics to be viable. Out of combat heal means that you can use stim in battles, but not all of the time and at a cost. And as many have said, medics are just a bandaid to fix terrans earlygame and general lack of open combat strength. Lastly mnm is extremely strong when microed, while theyre pretty weak when not, wich is the main reason blizzard wont have them in the same form again. Basic units shouldnt be micro heavy units, if we follow blizzards own philosophy, the later in the game you get the harder the micro should get also meaning that a new player should be able to hold of a pro the first minutes since the game is easy then, but the longer it takes the more obvious the skill difference gets. [/QUOTE] This is COMPLETE and UTTER bullshit, if I'm 10 times better than my opponent he should die to my first attack, not artifically live on because there's no micro.. [/QUOTE] Tell that to zerg and toss players, who have low micro starting units. [QUOTE] Why not? Just beacuse you play terran and is in love with the medic that creates warcraft like micro?[/QUOTE] Have you ever played BW? The Zerg and Protoss both have early counters for Terran MM. One of them makes sunkens. The other one has the threat of oh let's see, DT, Reaver, HT, or good micro with ranged goons. FA plays Toss btw. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
On July 07 2007 10:06 Klockan3 wrote: Tell that to zerg and toss players, who have low micro starting units. Why not? Just beacuse you play terran and is in love with the medic that creates warcraft like micro? if ls was still around, this would probably be in the running for stupid post of the week | ||
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[X]Ken~D
377 Posts
The marine and medic pair is one of it. That combo has a great feel where are soon as you see danger, stim then run away or the timing on running medics first then marines right after to fight sunken lines. SC1 would more feel WC3-ish if high HP unit like Protoss has them where people just "watch" zealot & medic do their stuff. Though I haven't played SC2, but from what I've seen so far, it doesn't look like it has any new units that can match the rush feeling of the using the marine and medic pair. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On July 07 2007 10:14 A3iL3r0n wrote: Have you ever played BW? The Zerg and Protoss both have early counters for Terran MM. One of them makes sunkens. The other one has the threat of oh let's see, DT, Reaver, HT, or good micro with ranged goons. FA plays Toss btw. I never said that the other had no counters to mnm, just that their basic troops didnt have nearly the same micro curve as mnm. A person 10 times better will not beat the other with the first wave as long as he has a viable BO, but he will beat him very soon anyway eventhough not instantly when they meet like this person seems to want it to be. During the first attack your opponents army will be much bigger just beacuse your units need to move to him when his units arrive instantly, and also he can defend himself with his workers. There is micro even if you remove the medics, zerglings got micro, hydras got micro, goond got micro, zealots got micro. However, they dont got nearly as much micro as the mnm, wich is an anomality in the game, and wich is why Blizzard probably will remove the medic we have today and instead make something different. if ls was still around, this would probably be in the running for stupid post of the week. Why, beacuse the poster above you missunderstood my post? SC1 would more feel WC3-ish if high HP unit like Protoss has them where people just "watch" zealot & medic do their stuff. Now you dont understand either, marine and medics micro works under the same premises as the whole micro system in warcraft 3. Its based around moving units that are focused, while shooting with units that are not focused, and trying to block of enemy units etc. It doesnt matter that mnm dies fast and kills fast, they work exactly the same as wc3 micro but a bit faster, although in wc3 every unit in the whole game works like this, its like having 4 teams full of different mnm combos. I mean, dont anyone here even understand why WC3 is the second biggest competetive rts in the world, and is the biggest competetive rts outside of korea? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
The fact that the marine micro is unique from the other units is good, it's not supposed to be uniform across the board, different races have different amounts of micro at different phases. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On July 07 2007 10:47 FrozenArbiter wrote: I play protoss. If I'm 10 times better than my opponent he dies in my first attack. Then why are you acting so stupid about the medic subject? Removing the medic will only reduce the micro for marines to the level of the micro for zealots and goons. I nowere talk about removing micro for lowtier units totally, just that lowtier units should generally be lowmicro units such as those of toss/zerg.(Yes they are low micro units compared to templars/other casters, drops and so on) The fact that the marine micro is unique from the other units is good, it's not supposed to be uniform across the board, different races have different amounts of micro at different phases. No, the races should be diverse, but the skill requirement for all of them must be the same or they become unalanced. Having one side with micro heavy starting units is bound to create imbalance in either lowend or highend games.(But in starcraft it didnt matter in lowend, since all lowend players played money maps were terran can turtle) There is a few things you cant add for diversity really, and with a real ladder they need to have the game quite balanced for all skill levels, but ofcourse highest level comes first. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On July 06 2007 20:23 FrozenArbiter wrote: I\'m pretty sure the pros always use them to wall their marines off from ultralisks late game :O When I played the last Terran Brood War mission a week back, I had to just wall off all my Tanks + rines with Medics because that hero Ultra would rape my rines with one hit T_T But yeah, M&M is synonymous (did I spell this right -_-) with SC  | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 07 2007 10:59 Klockan3 wrote: Then why are you acting so stupid about the medic subject? Removing the medic will only reduce the micro for marines to the level of the micro for zealots and goons. I nowere talk about removing micro for lowtier units totally, just that lowtier units should generally be lowmicro units such as those of toss/zerg.(Yes they are low micro units compared to templars/other casters, drops and so on) Where does it say marines have to be low micro? They are low micro units until you tech and get medics/stim, then they become high micro units. I like it this way and would be sad to see it changed. I don't want marines that can be used in every single matchup (well they should be useable like they are now but not the way, say, dragoons are), I like the way they are the main army in TvZ, part of an optional strategy TvP and barely ever used TvT. Marine/Medic control is easily in the top 3 most fun and impressive things in SC and taking it out makes absolutely no sense :/ If I seem hostile it's I really don't want to see one of the things about SC I enjoy the most, disappear in sc2. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 07 2007 10:06 Klockan3 wrote: [QUOTE]On July 07 2007 09:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: [QUOTE]On July 07 2007 08:42 Klockan3 wrote: There will most likely be some way to heal your marines, but i would not count on a strong combat heal like medics will be in the game, especially now that marines is stronger than before wich means that they wont necesarily need medics to be viable. Out of combat heal means that you can use stim in battles, but not all of the time and at a cost. And as many have said, medics are just a bandaid to fix terrans earlygame and general lack of open combat strength. Lastly mnm is extremely strong when microed, while theyre pretty weak when not, wich is the main reason blizzard wont have them in the same form again. Basic units shouldnt be micro heavy units, if we follow blizzards own philosophy, the later in the game you get the harder the micro should get also meaning that a new player should be able to hold of a pro the first minutes since the game is easy then, but the longer it takes the more obvious the skill difference gets. [/QUOTE] This is COMPLETE and UTTER bullshit, if I\'m 10 times better than my opponent he should die to my first attack, not artifically live on because there\'s no micro.. [/QUOTE] Tell that to zerg and toss players, who have low micro starting units. [QUOTE] Why not? Just beacuse you play terran and is in love with the medic that creates warcraft like micro?[/QUOTE] Have you ever played BW? The Zerg and Protoss both have early counters for Terran MM. One of them makes sunkens. The other one has the threat of oh let\'s see, DT, Reaver, HT, or good micro with ranged goons. FA plays Toss btw.[/QUOTE] I was just about to say look at his post count. -_- | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On July 07 2007 11:05 FrozenArbiter wrote: Where does it say marines have to be low micro? They are low micro units until you tech and get medics/stim, then they become high micro units. I like it this way and would be sad to see it changed. I don't want marines that can be used in every single matchup (well they should be useable like they are now but not the way, say, dragoons are), I like the way they are the main army in TvZ, part of an optional strategy TvP and barely ever used TvT. Marine/Medic control is easily in the top 3 most fun and impressive things in SC and taking it out makes absolutely no sense :/ But the stim/medic comes at the same tech as the other races second unit, aka its not late at all. And i dont say that the medic have to be removed, just that i think that the possibility is high due to its role as a bandaid to terrans earlygame being redundant with new gameplay additions. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
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Tusk
Canada427 Posts
On July 07 2007 11:13 Klockan3 wrote: But the stim/medic comes at the same tech as the other races second unit, aka its not late at all. And i dont say that the medic have to be removed, just that i think that the possibility is high due to its role as a bandaid to terrans earlygame being redundant with new gameplay additions. Zomg, i just joined, and therefore i have no experience at all and you all other know much more just beacuse you have posted more things than me! And anyhow, your postcount aint that high either. Well, post count helps know what race FA plays. Don't be rude sir. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On July 07 2007 11:22 Tusk wrote: Well, post count helps know what race FA plays. Don't be rude sir. Ah sorry, i totally missunderstood his intent. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
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FatRine
406 Posts
On July 07 2007 15:11 lololol wrote: Who the hell said stimpack is going to be in SC2 at all??? HOW CANT IT BE?!?! it defines the marines, which defines the terran race. The sound.. oh the sound... it's one of the greatest feelings to stim your marines yum yum | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On July 07 2007 15:20 FatRine wrote: HOW CANT IT BE?!?! it defines the marines, which defines the terran race. The sound.. oh the sound... it's one of the greatest feelings to stim your marines yum yum There weren't any stimpacked marines in the demo!1! I'm wondering how didn't half the forum conclude there won't be stimpack, when there was topics like there won't be any supply depots and crap like that, just because there were none in the demo. Btw, I wouldn't mind if there was no stimpack, without medics the enemy just runs and you waste hp and you still need it every battle to be more effective and with medics you just spam it(such a spell would be autocast in w3). | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On July 06 2007 22:29 A3iL3r0n wrote: Mmm no. Before medics, TvZ was a straight macro fest because marines were basically throw away units. Once the BW introduced medics there all sorts of different ways you could play because a group of marines and a couple of medics was actually a formidable force early on the in game. Also, have you ever dropped a group of 8 marines and no medics into a Zerg base? They just don\'t do that much damage unless you totally caught the Zerg with his pants down. With medics you can stim and run around, since this is much more dangerous than without medics, making drops actually viable even with a sunken colony defending the min line. I could be convinced that medics should stay out of SC2. Some things I like about them, some things I dislike. I\'d be willing to say the medic+marine drop vs Zerg is borderline broken in BW. I guess it depends on the map, but even if the zerg is way ahead, it\'s hard to spare lurkers for every expansion just to stop that marine drop. And it\'s often hard to intercept with scourge (again, depends on map). And like you say, sunkens dont really do much vs them. Well, I\'m fairly sure that\'s why they already have dropships in SC2 set to 4 marines max. That is probably much closer to the damage potential of other race drops/cost/effort. Somebody is going to say High Temp drops are too good. High templar drops are pretty darn good, but those are low count, high cost units with mana... not the same thing as MnM that you have been producing since the second minute of the game. Also, High Temps can\'t take out towers or other buildings in a blink of an eye. And look at the cost... those gas costs alone distinctly limit the timing of high templar drops. I think if Mutas or the threat of mutas weren\'t so powerful, T would really be too good against Z just due to medics. The idea of medics and marines countering certain zerg units in SC1 is very nice, but I don\'t like the snowball effect if terran gets a small advantage. Basically, if you see terran get a tiny advantage on zerg, it could be game in the next moment. I think if you see Zerg get a tiny advantage on terran, zerg may win 10 minutes later if he doesnt make any mistakes or get dropped on. Seriously, watch the pro games and watch for that flip when terran wins a battle that looks like a minor win, and next thing you know Zerg can\'t defend the push and boom, gg. I think one big reason Savior is so good against terran is he knows when the avoid a bad fight. And look at when a zerg has obviously defeated a terran\'s defense and starts making his way into his nat. Nine times out of ten the game is still close to 50/50 outcome... and if the zerg presses too far at the wrong time he will lose. Funny thing is, the same thing happens with P v T in early or mid game. Maybe late game too. Terran is the race of 2nd chances/9 lives due to superior defense, siege tanks (anti-static d), and snowball effect. Z and P have to stay ahead on money to win. It\'s this desperate need to stay ahead in money that drives pros like Stork to die b/c he FE\'s three times in a row to an aggressive terran. I wonder what ppl would say if it were Terran who always had to stay 1 or 2 expos ahead of the other races to win. Would it still be fair? Would people learn new builds that would \"work\" in those circumstances- impossible to answer b/c Terran would have to be vastly different, but just think about what if. Now don\'t get me wrong... the balance is very close between all the races in BW. But the more I watch the pros, the more things become clear about that Terran snowball effect and the 9 lives opportunities. This has got to be one of the reasons why so many pros gravitate toward terran. | ||
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