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On July 09 2007 10:21 joeki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2007 10:10 DTDominion wrote:
Plus, as FA has explained multiple times, M&M micro is synonymous with StarCraft, as well as being a major part of its appear. If it's changed beyond minor balance tweaks StarCraft II will not be a true sequel to StarCraft. Okay, maybe I was wrong in my previous post in this topic. Are really Marines and medics more important to you guys than anything else? It sure seems so here, but I wonder... Are you really sure you wouldn't say exactly the same thing if tanks didn't get siege mode? If vulture mines was taken away? If ghosts didn't have nukes? And that is just for terran! I may very well be wrong, but if tanks was changed/deleted I'm pretty sure we would get just as many "tanks in siege mode are synonymous with Starcraft" as we get now with the medics.
You'd not only hear this, but you'd hear even more of it. Obviously any unit going kinda sucks, but there are definitely more than a few which cannot be removed without making StarCraft II no longer a sequel to the original:
SCV/Drone/Probe
Marine
Medic
Ghost (maybe)
Tank
Wraith (maybe)
Dropship
Battlecruiser
Overlord
Zergling
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Scourge (I personally don't care, but I know it's arguable)
Lurker
Defiler
Ultralisk
Guardian (maybe)
Zealot
High Templar
Dark Templar
Reaver
Observer (unless someone thinks of something better)
Corsair (arguable)
Carrier
Arbiter (the "Star Relic" is a pathetic attempt at replacing it)
Archon
"Wow, that's sure a lot of units that you think could never be taken out of StarCraft II"
Maybe trying to improve upon the best game ever is a waste of time? -_-
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On July 09 2007 20:53 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2007 16:14 FieryBalrog wrote:
One thing that was brought up as a good point that hasn't really been addressed:
I like medic/marine combo too, but
a) Its a little too obvious and gets used every single zerg matchup, wouldn't it be nice if it Terran had more 'backbone' unit options in this matchup? MnM is used the whole game through all the time.
b) medics remove all the tactical tradeoff of stimming, when it was designed in vanilla SC it wasn't with the view that "hey, feel free to stim any time, all the time". Now I know constantly spamming it nonstop will down your medics energy, but realistically, its constantly on in battle. And as someone said it just makes medics a huge walking permanent buff to marines, good for constant move/attack speed and health regen.
Also, its kind of sad that lurkers, supposedly the mid-game counter, are pretty damn hard to use against properly microed MnM (which becomes a ton easier with constant stim) but can't be microed themselves to much advantage.
For this reason I think TvZ is a little imbalanced at the medium skill levels, Zerg practically needs hive tech to compete with tier 1 terran units and a few tanks. Its not a big deal since its pretty even at the pro level, but it'd be nice if this was addressed also.
Just my $0.02 To address point B. Without medics, there is a very easy and nearly free counter to stimmed marines. It's called running away. Now the marines are at 75% health and fire normally again when your Zerg army returns. Yeah, that's real fucking fair. Have you ever played TvZ in vanilla SC? It's ridiculous. Muta/Ling rapes you at every turn. Then throw in Ultras and Swarm. Terran needed medics badly. Now, TvZ is one of the most balanced match-ups in BW.
Unit combos and strats are not gonna be the same as in sc2, if terran needs medics in sc1 this does NOT mean shit in sc2, they can simply take out medics and stim(or change it significantly) and it will be fine. Stim's flaw is obvious, but adding meds and stim, simply because one's concept sucks without the other is a bit pointless 
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I think the answer is plainly obvious. Keep medics, but reduce their rate of heal. They currently heal far too quickly...
On that note, I also hope they remember to reduce the rate of fire for missle turrets... gg
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On July 10 2007 03:48 DTDominion wrote:
Maybe trying to improve upon the best game ever is a waste of time? -_-
Well, that's exactly my point.
Their job is not to improve Brood War. Their job is to make Starcraft 2. A new game. Try to understand the difference. Your comment really fits in everything I wrote in my own thread. Your thinking about SC2 will make you disappointed no matter what.
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On July 10 2007 10:05 joeki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2007 03:48 DTDominion wrote:
Maybe trying to improve upon the best game ever is a waste of time? -_- Well, that's exactly my point. Their job is not to improve Brood War. Their job is to make Starcraft 2. A new game. Try to understand the difference. Your comment really fits in everything I wrote in my own thread. Your thinking about SC2 will make you disappointed no matter what.
StarCraft II has to be a sequel to the original StarCraft. Part of making a sequel is improving upon weaknesses in the original game, of which StarCraft has legendarily few. Because of this in order to be a new game, StarCraft II has to mainly focus on being different from the first game, as you said.
The problem is that for the most part, the different ideas being introduced for SC II are inferior to their counterparts in the original game. You can tell me I'll be disappointed no matter what, but I can just as easily and just as validly say a successful sequel to StarCraft is almost impossible no matter what.
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dude i bet you are a zerg player not terran...... and i bet you when ur zerg u just get pwned by some MM.....
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I have an idea- How about medics that can go back in time to heal units, thus preventing death?!
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On July 10 2007 14:33 omgbnetsux wrote:
I have an idea- How about medics that can go back in time to heal units, thus preventing death?!
Cool idea, make your own thread about it!
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On July 10 2007 14:27 DTDominion wrote:
StarCraft II has to be a sequel to the original StarCraft. Part of making a sequel is improving upon weaknesses in the original game, of which StarCraft has legendarily few. Because of this in order to be a new game, StarCraft II has to mainly focus on being different from the first game, as you said.
The problem is that for the most part, the different ideas being introduced for SC II are inferior to their counterparts in the original game. You can tell me I'll be disappointed no matter what, but I can just as easily and just as validly say a successful sequel to StarCraft is almost impossible no matter what.
Well then I think we are pretty similar. At least to that sense that we believe a sequel to Starcraft will not be better than the original. I also agree that it is almost impossible to make a better game than BW.
The difference between us then are that you seem to think every excellent thing in BW should be implented to SC2 as well because that will make SC2 excellent too. I believe that is completely impossible.
Even if we implent ONLY the 3D-engine the game would change completely. Microing M&Ms would be completely different. Then add only one single unit for each race. Then add different map-stuff like 2-level cliffs and yellow minerals. It would change the whole thing. If we want M&M to be as powerful as they were in BW with the proper micro we would have to duplicate everything from BW. The medics themselves doesn't make Marines powerful automatically. It's the zerglings bad AI, it's the time it takes for a lurker to burrow, it's ramps and cliffs... I could go on forever. There are so many factors you seem to ignore and/or not think of.
If you see the video where zealots with charge upgrade attacks marines you see that the AI is great. They don't attack in a line and get stuck, they automatically surrounds the marines instantly. Then some might say "well then take away the good AI then". Ok, but the charge ability will still own. "Take away the charge ability". Ok, but the 3D makes the marines awkward and messy to control. "Take away the 3D."
If we discuss like that, in the end we end up with the best game ever, sure.
But we already have it.
So what I'm trying to say is that, while it may sound easy to just implent the stuff that made BW good, into a game which will be released 10 years later, it's almost impossible. I realize this thread is about the medic and I got a little carried away, but we this argument all the time. "It worked in BW, which is the best game in the world. It can't go wrong in SC2." But it can and probably will if they would think like that.
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Sweden33719 Posts
The zealots charging work exactly like zealots attacking normally in BW from what I've seen, the only difference is that they move 10 times as fast so they quickly solve the pathing issues.
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I think we should see SC2 as more of a technological advance in all three races - progressing according to STORY development. Not so much as "OMG BW UNIT SC2 WHAT?" but more along the lines of "OhhCool, Toss got this, Terran got this piece of shit" etc.
Like I said, Story 
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On July 09 2007 20:53 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2007 16:14 FieryBalrog wrote:
One thing that was brought up as a good point that hasn't really been addressed:
I like medic/marine combo too, but
a) Its a little too obvious and gets used every single zerg matchup, wouldn't it be nice if it Terran had more 'backbone' unit options in this matchup? MnM is used the whole game through all the time.
b) medics remove all the tactical tradeoff of stimming, when it was designed in vanilla SC it wasn't with the view that "hey, feel free to stim any time, all the time". Now I know constantly spamming it nonstop will down your medics energy, but realistically, its constantly on in battle. And as someone said it just makes medics a huge walking permanent buff to marines, good for constant move/attack speed and health regen.
Also, its kind of sad that lurkers, supposedly the mid-game counter, are pretty damn hard to use against properly microed MnM (which becomes a ton easier with constant stim) but can't be microed themselves to much advantage.
For this reason I think TvZ is a little imbalanced at the medium skill levels, Zerg practically needs hive tech to compete with tier 1 terran units and a few tanks. Its not a big deal since its pretty even at the pro level, but it'd be nice if this was addressed also.
Just my $0.02 To address point B. Without medics, there is a very easy and nearly free counter to stimmed marines. It's called running away. Now the marines are at 75% health and fire normally again when your Zerg army returns. Yeah, that's real fucking fair. Have you ever played TvZ in vanilla SC? It's ridiculous. Muta/Ling rapes you at every turn. Then throw in Ultras and Swarm. Terran needed medics badly. Now, TvZ is one of the most balanced match-ups in BW.
This is Starcraft 2, not Starcraft. They can change things, they don't need to keep stim the same, or medics the same, in order to keep the matchup balanced.
I'm not advocating taking out or changing medics from BW, I know that.
But it doesn't change the fact that currently stim is not designed as well as it could be. Its become a perma-buff whereas the whole concept is that its supposed to be a tradeoff. I'd also like to see more variety on the terran end in TvZ in Starcraft 2....
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Norway28650 Posts
they don't NEED to keep the medic. but they do need to make marines a unit that is weak unmicroed but with vast potential.
look at pretty much every science fiction movie created
that is how terran works. zerg is supposed to be the best race for aggression and raiding shiznits and just swarming over things cause thats what aliens that look like zerg do
protoss is all high techy, meaning they can destroy lots of stuff with few casualities, but also that they have less
terran has a lot of stuff that dies easily, but then some hero comes out and saves the day
the 24 m&m that died vs 4 lurk fit in the first group
the 8 m&m that killed an expansion, 12 drones, then defiler mound and spawning pool, are the heroes.
while m&m in starcraft at times is "too" powerful because when someone microes them absolutely perfectly, they can slaughter way, way more than their cost, nobody seems to mention the times where 50 marines and medics face 24 hydra and 12 lurks and end up killing 3 lurks and 10 hydras before they're all dead.
i hope they keep it like this. but if the medic is removed, there must be a reason for it; marines need to be more manueverable and tougher than they currently are, as to be able to live longer and have more potential than a group of marines in vanilla has (which is close to 0 against anything other than smaller numbers of zerglings, peons and buildings that do not fire) , and they must have some kind of natural healing. perhaps kind of a natural healing slightly slower than that of zerg units, or bunkers slightly increasing heal time (to perhaps that of zerg units, or slightly faster. ) I could definitely see this working out though, compare it to having 60 hp marines where putting them in a bunker would heal them (maybe even the bunker could have mana like shield batteries, meaning you could instantly heal like 4-5 marines from 0 hp with 1 bunker. this would be a bit too similar to batteries for my liking, but in principle marines could be dropped somewhere, fight, fuck shiz up and go back home after a successful mission, then be healed, or even heal themselves if stationed somewhere long enough.
there needs to be some method of healing and preferably one unique to the race, but it should be possible to give a real starcraftesque feel even without medics. every terran unit needs to be repairable somehow though, that's part of terran. zerg needs to heal slowly without any external healing sources because individual units are inherently worthless to zerg, and toss needs something similar to batteries because individual survival is also part of protoss.
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I wouldn't be suprised if they removed Stimpack just cause it's a soldier taking a performance enchanching drug.
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On July 09 2007 20:53 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2007 16:14 FieryBalrog wrote:
One thing that was brought up as a good point that hasn't really been addressed:
I like medic/marine combo too, but
a) Its a little too obvious and gets used every single zerg matchup, wouldn't it be nice if it Terran had more 'backbone' unit options in this matchup? MnM is used the whole game through all the time.
b) medics remove all the tactical tradeoff of stimming, when it was designed in vanilla SC it wasn't with the view that "hey, feel free to stim any time, all the time". Now I know constantly spamming it nonstop will down your medics energy, but realistically, its constantly on in battle. And as someone said it just makes medics a huge walking permanent buff to marines, good for constant move/attack speed and health regen.
Also, its kind of sad that lurkers, supposedly the mid-game counter, are pretty damn hard to use against properly microed MnM (which becomes a ton easier with constant stim) but can't be microed themselves to much advantage.
For this reason I think TvZ is a little imbalanced at the medium skill levels, Zerg practically needs hive tech to compete with tier 1 terran units and a few tanks. Its not a big deal since its pretty even at the pro level, but it'd be nice if this was addressed also.
Just my $0.02 To address point B. Without medics, there is a very easy and nearly free counter to stimmed marines. It's called running away. Now the marines are at 75% health and fire normally again when your Zerg army returns. Yeah, that's real fucking fair. Have you ever played TvZ in vanilla SC? It's ridiculous. Muta/Ling rapes you at every turn. Then throw in Ultras and Swarm. Terran needed medics badly. Now, TvZ is one of the most balanced match-ups in BW.
There is a counter to zerg running away in vanilla SC. It is stimming only 2-3 of your marines, they won't be able to tell the difference. Only when you see the zerg really engage (you have superior range so you are usually able to tell) you stim everyone. But i agree that the mu isn't too balanced. Ultra's weren't so much the problem, they had no ups, but mutaling was way too strong.
edit: Oh and i can see Terran work without medics. I'm sure they'll find a way to make it still work (perhaps an inverse stimpack, refill life 3 times per marine, but takes 5 seconds to do so?).
The thing i'm afraid of is that they will balance the game with the expansion, having designed the units all along, but leaving them out at first. Balance has been far better in blizzard expansions than in first releases (like TFT is much better than RoC also, the entire damage modifiers changed). This means we will have to wait another year for that perfect game^^.
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Norway28650 Posts
i also think this is very likely :p
however I also think it's kind of good. allows them to develop the expansion pack with the intention on improving everything that has shown itself as flawed through 1 year of gaming. it's like a beta test gone grand fucking scale, which eventually allows them to create better games than any other company.
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On July 11 2007 09:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:
i also think this is very likely :p
however I also think it's kind of good. allows them to develop the expansion pack with the intention on improving everything that has shown itself as flawed through 1 year of gaming. it's like a beta test gone grand fucking scale, which eventually allows them to create better games than any other company.
I agree, an expansion is better for everybody. Blizz makes more money, and we get a more balanced game. It really gives them time to work on things while we still get to play the game.
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On July 06 2007 21:20 useless wrote:
Yeah, like one Firebat + medics for 40+ kills? imba! Take both units out.
SC1 is the most well balanced rts in existence. Nothing is imba.
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EPT
