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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 25 2020 01:45 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:The last girl avilo harassed also wrote a twitlonger. Some disturbing stuff in there. www.twitlonger.com
Christ dude.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:Okay. Here we go. I'm going to be posting a wall of text, so forewarning. I've spent a good portion of the last 72 hours reading accounts of sexual harassment across the board, discussing these topics with other people, and throwing my solidarity behind other women. I am biased. I'm going to be very straightforward and probably quite incendiary here because my strong feelings for these scenarios bars me from calling out assholes and gaslighting dipshits in a level-headed and reasonable manner. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. On June 24 2020 09:07 Pangpootata wrote:
Remember that a basic rule of civilized society is innocent until proven guilty. If it's someone's verbal claim against another, more hard evidence has to be provided before coming to a conclusion. On June 24 2020 08:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. This. it wouldn't be the first time that fake accusations are being made even in this community. 1 Person saying something bad about someone shouldn't warrant a witch-hunt. On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. On June 24 2020 19:17 col_jung wrote:
No doubt real abuse is terrifying, but so is how easy it is to destroy someone's reputation on the internet without providing any proof.
If you want to publicly call out bad behaviour, that's OK. If you're going to do it without an inch of proof, then I'm not cool with that. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. This shit is absolutely DISGUSTING. If you are on the sidelines yelling "but what about presumption of innocence??", especially AT the victims, you need to fuck the fuck off and stay out of the discussion entirely. The whole idea that women who put their reputation and livelihood on the line need to show empiric proof of how they were treated in a clearly unequal relationship is an incredibly privileged and ignorant mindset. You are awfully quick to jump on protecting the feelings of the accused while immediately ignoring the humanity of the accuser, and that makes you just as culpable for the silent abuse of women as the perpetrators themselves. Opposing women speaking their truths is the same as shaming them into silence and perpetuating an atmosphere of victim blaming. This is not even getting into the fact that whatever happened, the feelings of the victim are valid and real, and that proving rape or sexual misconduct is a fairly ambiguous and often impossible task. Often, the official channels are ineffective and/or reinforce the idea that women should remain silent and be ignored, and sometimes the official channels don't exist at all. Imagine reporting sexual harassment to someone who believes you're just flirting badly. On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:
HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever.
Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. On June 24 2020 17:53 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer.. what's your source on that? If you demonstrated that 95% of the accusations are real I maybe would've agreed that the 5% need to take the hit to straighten things out. But where's that data then? On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. @juvenal What's it like to be a complete piece of garbage? I see you there pretending to play devil's advocate but actually just straight up spreading your shit misogynistic mentality. You start by saying that no one should speak up and then after being bombarded with (logical and level-headed) pushback, you try to distract with forcing people to prove obscure numbers and invent strawman arguments before defaulting to the old tactic of pretending that you never said that people shouldn't share and shifting the blame back onto your debate opponents for not understanding what you said. I've seen these tricks used time and time again; it's an abusive behavior and commonly manifests itself in shitposter trolls, racists, and misogynists. Women deserve to be heard. Women deserve to name names. Proof is not a requirement for sharing your perspective. Fuck off. On June 24 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:29 Heartland wrote:On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. What you're suggesting has meant that people haven't spoken out and the problems have persisted. The current option is treated as a public lynch though. People do search other people before employment and any public stain is a big issue. There has to be channels to do this and social media isn't the right place. Which is the prime issue. Currently Rapid is in serious shit business wise. On June 24 2020 17:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now. Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president) If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from. (I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority) This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved. @deacon.frost While a bit less of a shitlord, you should be ashamed to be protecting the accused. As I said earlier, opposing the voice of women is the same as victimizing them the same way the perpetrator did. If you do not stand up to misogyny and misconduct, you are allowing it and complicit to the crime. It shouldn't matter what the exact number of people who are falsely accused is; the fact that there are any victims at all, much less a majority, should be reason enough for you to take these stories VERY seriously and throw solidarity and love behind them rather than brush them under the rug and criticize them as being "dangerous". No one should be made to feel ashamed of their body or their relationships with other people.It should break your fucking heart that the commonality between every one of these stories is not the conduct but the way it made these women ashamed in some way and threw blame on them. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 19:08 fededevi wrote:
While I completely support speaking up by anyone and I seriously doubt any of the shared stories are completely made up they have to be taken as what they are. Stories written by someone on the internet.
Unless you have serious, serious proof you should not make the names of the involved people public.. I mean you can.. but I think it is a very bad thing to do. And make it feels more like revenge than justice.
If there is a crime it should be prosecuted in the court.
If you know that someone is an asshole by your own experience, do your choice, exclude him/her from your life or don't if you choose so.
If you think the legal system does not work properly or does not cover certain behaviors properly then you should ask/discuss/protest do whatever to change that.
This is not a problem without solution, the solution is to provide people with channels to denounce improper behavior, change the legal system to make it easier for victims to denounce those behaviors or make them illegal or punishable.
The solution is not to use twitter as a public court.
The solution is not to drop the "presumption of innocence" principle.
At least that is what I think.
Also I want to add that these stories, even anonymous ones, have a lot of intrinsic value and we should use them to correct and adjust our behaviors rather than use them to judge and punish the involved people, especially when little to no evidence is provided.
Hell! This should be the final objective, to reduce this kind of behavior, not to have retribution.
Sorry for my english. I feel less strongly about this comment, but I really want to address the faux concept of "speak your truth, but don't name names". You need to understand that abusive behavior and sexual misconduct does more than just offend people. In the cases of these women, it robs them of their power and their agency. They are completely at the mercy of their oppressor for as long as they remain silent and suffering, and the only way to regain their agency and reclaim their power is by speaking out against the terrible acts committed against them and naming those responsible for it, especially if they are in a position of public influence and power. It is not a retribution so much as a protection for others who can and will fall victim to the same sort of abuse if nothing is ever done to bring these situations to light. Women shouldn't need to be afraid to tell a man to stop kissing them for fear that their career or their life might be ruined. Women shouldn't need to fear for their life when someone offers to take them home and doesn't stop following them when turned down. We've normalized these behaviors and then blamed women for bravely speaking up after they've spent months or years trying to untangle the trauma of these events, and it needs to stop. It needs to fucking stop. EDIT: Adding eon to the wall of shame, but he is redeemed On June 24 2020 21:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea. What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations? I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking. Even the girl that allegates the situation in real life said she casted with him years later.all these stories are odd. On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? On June 24 2020 22:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Let me put it straight im not defending sexual harass abuse.f*ck that people.and if thats the case with Rapid fuck him too.But im not covinced with what we do have now. On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny. Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. Thank you for admitting your denial. I still think we should consider the issue of jumping on board the belief that several women conspired to get Rapid into trouble as your first response to a sexual misconduct allegation as troubling, though. We need to do better about, at the very least, sympathizing with those who speak out and appreciate their struggle before we jump to conclusions about who is right or wrong. EDIT: Adding Spike to the wall of shame. On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. How dare you suggest that women need to be educated how to be properly sexual abused?
First of all, if i could i would have reported you, this is as toxic post as it can get. If you cannot sustain a different opinion without attacking other persons, what are you if I am a shitlord?
2nd - What is wrong with you? attacking others for respecting the fact that false accusations are ruining lives of multiple people and that somebody dares to stand behind a person who's just been accused without any proof whatsover. How dare of us to respect one of the pilars the western society says it stands on(innocent until proven guilty, although doesn't work all the time)
Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK.
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On June 25 2020 03:28 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 03:16 Elmonti wrote:On June 25 2020 02:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 25 2020 02:35 Elmonti wrote:On June 25 2020 01:45 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:The last girl avilo harassed also wrote a twitlonger. Some disturbing stuff in there. www.twitlonger.com Jesus Christ... that Avilo stuff that Atira wrote... that's... jesus christ. The guy belongs to a Mental Institution... or Jail. Props to Atira for being brave enough to speak about that. That takes some courage, to be able to speak out about that stuff you suffered. I’ve been in a mental institution and I don’t behave like that, the friends I’ve kept in touch with don’t either. The guy needed proper help years ago and never got it. Partly because he was able to make a living behaving like a complete ass instead of being ostracised and having to re-evaluate. How do you fix his psyche now he’s clearly gotten worse and worse over time? Also consider that there are Avilos out there who behave like this but are charming/attractive and have positions of power. He’s not some crazy outlier, he’s just so low down on the totem pole that he can be exposed and people believe the accusations against him. Regarding the Mental Institution thing, It was more of an expression... However, psychiatric disorders include very different entites from Dementia to bulimia nervosa or paranoid schizophrenia, and psychopathy/sociopathy is still a personality disorder. Sometimes it can even associate schizophrenia. It's been a few years since I studied this stuff, but a Mental Institution could help in some cases... or maybe not in this one, I don't know... Indeed, it's hard to find what we can do to fix psychos like this guy. And it's scary the amount of people with psychopathic personality that are stablished in power/important positions.... In fact, one could say that kind of behaviour/personality HELPS to acquire that power, always in detriment of others. Yeah sorry I wasn’t disagreeing with you on those points whatsoever, I agree there’s something wrong with the guy. Equally there are psychologically ‘normal’ people who indulge in the same behaviours and they’re more widespread than people like to admit, or hope is the case. A psychotypical, charming regular nice guy version of Avilo who his friends will defend as ‘he’s not that kind of guy’ is way more common than something as egregious as an Avilo
Agree. There is a whole gradient of disorders regarding this narcissist behaviour. From the most obvious ones, suffering from psychopathy with schizophrenia, to narcissistic personality disorder, to most of us having narcissistic traits in a variable degree.
I've found it's not uncommon to see this in couples: where a narcissistic and authoritarian person finds her/himself a "soft", tame/docile person to manipulate at his/her will. We all know people/couples like that, in case we are not one of them even...
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On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:Okay. Here we go. I'm going to be posting a wall of text, so forewarning. I've spent a good portion of the last 72 hours reading accounts of sexual harassment across the board, discussing these topics with other people, and throwing my solidarity behind other women. I am biased. I'm going to be very straightforward and probably quite incendiary here because my strong feelings for these scenarios bars me from calling out assholes and gaslighting dipshits in a level-headed and reasonable manner. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. On June 24 2020 09:07 Pangpootata wrote:
Remember that a basic rule of civilized society is innocent until proven guilty. If it's someone's verbal claim against another, more hard evidence has to be provided before coming to a conclusion. On June 24 2020 08:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. This. it wouldn't be the first time that fake accusations are being made even in this community. 1 Person saying something bad about someone shouldn't warrant a witch-hunt. On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. On June 24 2020 19:17 col_jung wrote:
No doubt real abuse is terrifying, but so is how easy it is to destroy someone's reputation on the internet without providing any proof.
If you want to publicly call out bad behaviour, that's OK. If you're going to do it without an inch of proof, then I'm not cool with that. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. This shit is absolutely DISGUSTING. If you are on the sidelines yelling "but what about presumption of innocence??", especially AT the victims, you need to fuck the fuck off and stay out of the discussion entirely. The whole idea that women who put their reputation and livelihood on the line need to show empiric proof of how they were treated in a clearly unequal relationship is an incredibly privileged and ignorant mindset. You are awfully quick to jump on protecting the feelings of the accused while immediately ignoring the humanity of the accuser, and that makes you just as culpable for the silent abuse of women as the perpetrators themselves. Opposing women speaking their truths is the same as shaming them into silence and perpetuating an atmosphere of victim blaming. This is not even getting into the fact that whatever happened, the feelings of the victim are valid and real, and that proving rape or sexual misconduct is a fairly ambiguous and often impossible task. Often, the official channels are ineffective and/or reinforce the idea that women should remain silent and be ignored, and sometimes the official channels don't exist at all. Imagine reporting sexual harassment to someone who believes you're just flirting badly. On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. On June 24 2020 17:53 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer.. what's your source on that? If you demonstrated that 95% of the accusations are real I maybe would've agreed that the 5% need to take the hit to straighten things out. But where's that data then? On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. @juvenal What's it like to be a complete piece of garbage? I see you there pretending to play devil's advocate but actually just straight up spreading your shit misogynistic mentality. You start by saying that no one should speak up and then after being bombarded with (logical and level-headed) pushback, you try to distract with forcing people to prove obscure numbers and invent strawman arguments before defaulting to the old tactic of pretending that you never said that people shouldn't share and shifting the blame back onto your debate opponents for not understanding what you said. I've seen these tricks used time and time again; it's an abusive behavior and commonly manifests itself in shitposter trolls, racists, and misogynists. Women deserve to be heard. Women deserve to name names. Proof is not a requirement for sharing your perspective. Fuck off. On June 24 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:29 Heartland wrote:On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. What you're suggesting has meant that people haven't spoken out and the problems have persisted. The current option is treated as a public lynch though. People do search other people before employment and any public stain is a big issue. There has to be channels to do this and social media isn't the right place. Which is the prime issue. Currently Rapid is in serious shit business wise. On June 24 2020 17:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now. Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president) If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from. (I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority) This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved. @deacon.frost While a bit less of a shitlord, you should be ashamed to be protecting the accused. As I said earlier, opposing the voice of women is the same as victimizing them the same way the perpetrator did. If you do not stand up to misogyny and misconduct, you are allowing it and complicit to the crime. It shouldn't matter what the exact number of people who are falsely accused is; the fact that there are any victims at all, much less a majority, should be reason enough for you to take these stories VERY seriously and throw solidarity and love behind them rather than brush them under the rug and criticize them as being "dangerous". No one should be made to feel ashamed of their body or their relationships with other people.It should break your fucking heart that the commonality between every one of these stories is not the conduct but the way it made these women ashamed in some way and threw blame on them. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 19:08 fededevi wrote:
While I completely support speaking up by anyone and I seriously doubt any of the shared stories are completely made up they have to be taken as what they are. Stories written by someone on the internet.
Unless you have serious, serious proof you should not make the names of the involved people public.. I mean you can.. but I think it is a very bad thing to do. And make it feels more like revenge than justice.
If there is a crime it should be prosecuted in the court.
If you know that someone is an asshole by your own experience, do your choice, exclude him/her from your life or don't if you choose so.
If you think the legal system does not work properly or does not cover certain behaviors properly then you should ask/discuss/protest do whatever to change that.
This is not a problem without solution, the solution is to provide people with channels to denounce improper behavior, change the legal system to make it easier for victims to denounce those behaviors or make them illegal or punishable.
The solution is not to use twitter as a public court.
The solution is not to drop the "presumption of innocence" principle.
At least that is what I think.
Also I want to add that these stories, even anonymous ones, have a lot of intrinsic value and we should use them to correct and adjust our behaviors rather than use them to judge and punish the involved people, especially when little to no evidence is provided.
Hell! This should be the final objective, to reduce this kind of behavior, not to have retribution.
Sorry for my english. I feel less strongly about this comment, but I really want to address the faux concept of "speak your truth, but don't name names". You need to understand that abusive behavior and sexual misconduct does more than just offend people. In the cases of these women, it robs them of their power and their agency. They are completely at the mercy of their oppressor for as long as they remain silent and suffering, and the only way to regain their agency and reclaim their power is by speaking out against the terrible acts committed against them and naming those responsible for it, especially if they are in a position of public influence and power. It is not a retribution so much as a protection for others who can and will fall victim to the same sort of abuse if nothing is ever done to bring these situations to light. Women shouldn't need to be afraid to tell a man to stop kissing them for fear that their career or their life might be ruined. Women shouldn't need to fear for their life when someone offers to take them home and doesn't stop following them when turned down. We've normalized these behaviors and then blamed women for bravely speaking up after they've spent months or years trying to untangle the trauma of these events, and it needs to stop. It needs to fucking stop. EDIT: Adding eon to the wall of shame, but he is redeemed On June 24 2020 21:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea. What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations? I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking. Even the girl that allegates the situation in real life said she casted with him years later.all these stories are odd. On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? On June 24 2020 22:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Let me put it straight im not defending sexual harass abuse.f*ck that people.and if thats the case with Rapid fuck him too.But im not covinced with what we do have now. On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny. Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. Thank you for admitting your denial. I still think we should consider the issue of jumping on board the belief that several women conspired to get Rapid into trouble as your first response to a sexual misconduct allegation as troubling, though. We need to do better about, at the very least, sympathizing with those who speak out and appreciate their struggle before we jump to conclusions about who is right or wrong. EDIT: Adding Spike to the wall of shame. On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. How dare you suggest that women need to be educated how to be properly sexual abused? First of all, if i could i would have reported you, this is as toxic post as it can get. If you cannot sustain a different opinion without attacking other persons, what are you if I am a shitlord? 2nd - What is wrong with you? attacking others for respecting the fact that false accusations are ruining lives of multiple people and that somebody dares to stand behind a person who's just been accused without any proof whatsover. How dare of us to respect one of the pilars the western society says it stands on(innocent until proven guilty, although doesn't work all the time) Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK.
You realize Rapid's silence speaks volumes right? And hes not being crucified JUST over his social media harassment, but also his casting.
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He’s also not being crucified in any colloquial sense of the term, that’s deliberately obtuse hyperbole that fits neatly in the pattern of placing all of onus on victims and none on the accused.
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On June 25 2020 03:28 phodacbiet wrote:Christ dude.
Yeah that was....I don't even have the words to describe it. genuinely shocked.
It's hard for me to understand how she could've fallen under his sway initially (I think she should've been 28 at the time if I followed what she was saying correctly), but man I feel bad for her. Nobody should have to endure being stalked and harassed like this
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On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:
Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK.
If several people see you commit a crime multiple times, you are still innocent if noone took a picture or video of it? Is that what you are suggesting here?
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On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:
Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK.
When 3 statments from victimes don t convince you, what will?
If Maryke gets a few Players from Team Serbia and Team South Africa in, are those more reliable than her?
Or is that sismissed as well, because they would just help her cause and would lie just like her?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 25 2020 03:40 Models wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:Okay. Here we go. I'm going to be posting a wall of text, so forewarning. I've spent a good portion of the last 72 hours reading accounts of sexual harassment across the board, discussing these topics with other people, and throwing my solidarity behind other women. I am biased. I'm going to be very straightforward and probably quite incendiary here because my strong feelings for these scenarios bars me from calling out assholes and gaslighting dipshits in a level-headed and reasonable manner. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. On June 24 2020 09:07 Pangpootata wrote:
Remember that a basic rule of civilized society is innocent until proven guilty. If it's someone's verbal claim against another, more hard evidence has to be provided before coming to a conclusion. On June 24 2020 08:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. This. it wouldn't be the first time that fake accusations are being made even in this community. 1 Person saying something bad about someone shouldn't warrant a witch-hunt. On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. On June 24 2020 19:17 col_jung wrote:
No doubt real abuse is terrifying, but so is how easy it is to destroy someone's reputation on the internet without providing any proof.
If you want to publicly call out bad behaviour, that's OK. If you're going to do it without an inch of proof, then I'm not cool with that. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. This shit is absolutely DISGUSTING. If you are on the sidelines yelling "but what about presumption of innocence??", especially AT the victims, you need to fuck the fuck off and stay out of the discussion entirely. The whole idea that women who put their reputation and livelihood on the line need to show empiric proof of how they were treated in a clearly unequal relationship is an incredibly privileged and ignorant mindset. You are awfully quick to jump on protecting the feelings of the accused while immediately ignoring the humanity of the accuser, and that makes you just as culpable for the silent abuse of women as the perpetrators themselves. Opposing women speaking their truths is the same as shaming them into silence and perpetuating an atmosphere of victim blaming. This is not even getting into the fact that whatever happened, the feelings of the victim are valid and real, and that proving rape or sexual misconduct is a fairly ambiguous and often impossible task. Often, the official channels are ineffective and/or reinforce the idea that women should remain silent and be ignored, and sometimes the official channels don't exist at all. Imagine reporting sexual harassment to someone who believes you're just flirting badly. On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. On June 24 2020 17:53 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer.. what's your source on that? If you demonstrated that 95% of the accusations are real I maybe would've agreed that the 5% need to take the hit to straighten things out. But where's that data then? On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. @juvenal What's it like to be a complete piece of garbage? I see you there pretending to play devil's advocate but actually just straight up spreading your shit misogynistic mentality. You start by saying that no one should speak up and then after being bombarded with (logical and level-headed) pushback, you try to distract with forcing people to prove obscure numbers and invent strawman arguments before defaulting to the old tactic of pretending that you never said that people shouldn't share and shifting the blame back onto your debate opponents for not understanding what you said. I've seen these tricks used time and time again; it's an abusive behavior and commonly manifests itself in shitposter trolls, racists, and misogynists. Women deserve to be heard. Women deserve to name names. Proof is not a requirement for sharing your perspective. Fuck off. On June 24 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:29 Heartland wrote:On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. What you're suggesting has meant that people haven't spoken out and the problems have persisted. The current option is treated as a public lynch though. People do search other people before employment and any public stain is a big issue. There has to be channels to do this and social media isn't the right place. Which is the prime issue. Currently Rapid is in serious shit business wise. On June 24 2020 17:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now. Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president) If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from. (I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority) This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved. @deacon.frost While a bit less of a shitlord, you should be ashamed to be protecting the accused. As I said earlier, opposing the voice of women is the same as victimizing them the same way the perpetrator did. If you do not stand up to misogyny and misconduct, you are allowing it and complicit to the crime. It shouldn't matter what the exact number of people who are falsely accused is; the fact that there are any victims at all, much less a majority, should be reason enough for you to take these stories VERY seriously and throw solidarity and love behind them rather than brush them under the rug and criticize them as being "dangerous". No one should be made to feel ashamed of their body or their relationships with other people.It should break your fucking heart that the commonality between every one of these stories is not the conduct but the way it made these women ashamed in some way and threw blame on them. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 19:08 fededevi wrote:
While I completely support speaking up by anyone and I seriously doubt any of the shared stories are completely made up they have to be taken as what they are. Stories written by someone on the internet.
Unless you have serious, serious proof you should not make the names of the involved people public.. I mean you can.. but I think it is a very bad thing to do. And make it feels more like revenge than justice.
If there is a crime it should be prosecuted in the court.
If you know that someone is an asshole by your own experience, do your choice, exclude him/her from your life or don't if you choose so.
If you think the legal system does not work properly or does not cover certain behaviors properly then you should ask/discuss/protest do whatever to change that.
This is not a problem without solution, the solution is to provide people with channels to denounce improper behavior, change the legal system to make it easier for victims to denounce those behaviors or make them illegal or punishable.
The solution is not to use twitter as a public court.
The solution is not to drop the "presumption of innocence" principle.
At least that is what I think.
Also I want to add that these stories, even anonymous ones, have a lot of intrinsic value and we should use them to correct and adjust our behaviors rather than use them to judge and punish the involved people, especially when little to no evidence is provided.
Hell! This should be the final objective, to reduce this kind of behavior, not to have retribution.
Sorry for my english. I feel less strongly about this comment, but I really want to address the faux concept of "speak your truth, but don't name names". You need to understand that abusive behavior and sexual misconduct does more than just offend people. In the cases of these women, it robs them of their power and their agency. They are completely at the mercy of their oppressor for as long as they remain silent and suffering, and the only way to regain their agency and reclaim their power is by speaking out against the terrible acts committed against them and naming those responsible for it, especially if they are in a position of public influence and power. It is not a retribution so much as a protection for others who can and will fall victim to the same sort of abuse if nothing is ever done to bring these situations to light. Women shouldn't need to be afraid to tell a man to stop kissing them for fear that their career or their life might be ruined. Women shouldn't need to fear for their life when someone offers to take them home and doesn't stop following them when turned down. We've normalized these behaviors and then blamed women for bravely speaking up after they've spent months or years trying to untangle the trauma of these events, and it needs to stop. It needs to fucking stop. EDIT: Adding eon to the wall of shame, but he is redeemed On June 24 2020 21:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea. What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations? I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking. Even the girl that allegates the situation in real life said she casted with him years later.all these stories are odd. On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? On June 24 2020 22:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Let me put it straight im not defending sexual harass abuse.f*ck that people.and if thats the case with Rapid fuck him too.But im not covinced with what we do have now. On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny. Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. Thank you for admitting your denial. I still think we should consider the issue of jumping on board the belief that several women conspired to get Rapid into trouble as your first response to a sexual misconduct allegation as troubling, though. We need to do better about, at the very least, sympathizing with those who speak out and appreciate their struggle before we jump to conclusions about who is right or wrong. EDIT: Adding Spike to the wall of shame. On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. How dare you suggest that women need to be educated how to be properly sexual abused? First of all, if i could i would have reported you, this is as toxic post as it can get. If you cannot sustain a different opinion without attacking other persons, what are you if I am a shitlord? 2nd - What is wrong with you? attacking others for respecting the fact that false accusations are ruining lives of multiple people and that somebody dares to stand behind a person who's just been accused without any proof whatsover. How dare of us to respect one of the pilars the western society says it stands on(innocent until proven guilty, although doesn't work all the time) Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK. You realize Rapid's silence speaks volumes right? And hes not being crucified JUST over his social media harassment, but also his casting.
Denying never helped when the mob is already there and angry. FFS, almost everyone in the prison is denying their crime(and mind you, there are innocent people there, not many, but they exist).
Look, it doesn't look good for him, but I just wan't some restraint. He may have done it, he may have not, I have no idea, but I just can't stand aside when the mobs wants the witch.
On June 25 2020 03:57 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:
Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK.
When 3 statments from victimes don t convince you, what will? If Maryke gets a few Players from Team Serbia and Team South Africa in, are those more reliable than her? Or is that sismissed as well, because they would just help her cause and would lie just like her?
At least a picture of some of the DMs? Look, I am not saying he hasn't done it, I am saying let's step back and wait for a while before burning the man's career and personal life. Aren't we supposed to be civilized about this? Doesn't look to me.
On June 25 2020 03:42 farvacola wrote:
He’s also not being crucified in any colloquial sense of the term, that’s deliberately obtuse hyperbole that fits neatly in the pattern of placing all of onus on victims and none on the accused.
Please use more stupid terms, I'm a shitlord as a TL writer said and more importantly an idiot who doesn't speak English at such a high level. Thanks! The rest i posted above.
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The vast majority of people in jail/prison, at least in the US, are there on guilty or no contest pleas, but go ahead with your inaccurate sense of the world and defense of sexual assault based on startlingly inaccurate analogies that leave one with a sneaking suspicion you’re compensating for something yourself.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 25 2020 04:02 farvacola wrote:
The vast majority of people in jail/prison, at least in the US, are there on guilty or no contest pleas, but go ahead with your inaccurate sense of the world and defense of sexual assault based on startlingly inaccurate analogies that leave one with a sneaking suspicion you’re compensating for something yourself.
Do you read what i write or just insert your thoughts into my posts and replying to those?
Like for real...
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On June 25 2020 04:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 04:02 farvacola wrote:
The vast majority of people in jail/prison, at least in the US, are there on guilty or no contest pleas, but go ahead with your inaccurate sense of the world and defense of sexual assault based on startlingly inaccurate analogies that leave one with a sneaking suspicion you’re compensating for something yourself. Do you read what i write or just insert your thoughts into my posts and replying to those? Like for real...
Do you know what witch hunts, mob rule, and crucifixions actually are, or do you just use highly charged words when playing your role in excusing unacceptable behavior in a manner that totally decenters the victim?
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I am convinced the guy said and did everything he has been accused of, but I agree with Deacon Frost in the part that we should wait to hear what RAPiD has to say. That is undeniable.
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On June 25 2020 04:08 Elmonti wrote:
I am convinced the guy said and did everything he has been accused of, but I agree with Deacon Frost in the part that we should wait to hear what RAPiD has to say. That is undeniable.
If we can be reasonably certain that he's a creep who can't keep his genitalia to himself, what exactly are we waiting for in expecting a response from him? This isn't a sentencing, there isn't some executioner waiting for the go ahead.
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On June 25 2020 03:59 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 03:40 Models wrote:On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:Okay. Here we go. I'm going to be posting a wall of text, so forewarning. I've spent a good portion of the last 72 hours reading accounts of sexual harassment across the board, discussing these topics with other people, and throwing my solidarity behind other women. I am biased. I'm going to be very straightforward and probably quite incendiary here because my strong feelings for these scenarios bars me from calling out assholes and gaslighting dipshits in a level-headed and reasonable manner. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. On June 24 2020 09:07 Pangpootata wrote:
Remember that a basic rule of civilized society is innocent until proven guilty. If it's someone's verbal claim against another, more hard evidence has to be provided before coming to a conclusion. On June 24 2020 08:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. This. it wouldn't be the first time that fake accusations are being made even in this community. 1 Person saying something bad about someone shouldn't warrant a witch-hunt. On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. On June 24 2020 19:17 col_jung wrote:
No doubt real abuse is terrifying, but so is how easy it is to destroy someone's reputation on the internet without providing any proof.
If you want to publicly call out bad behaviour, that's OK. If you're going to do it without an inch of proof, then I'm not cool with that. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. This shit is absolutely DISGUSTING. If you are on the sidelines yelling "but what about presumption of innocence??", especially AT the victims, you need to fuck the fuck off and stay out of the discussion entirely. The whole idea that women who put their reputation and livelihood on the line need to show empiric proof of how they were treated in a clearly unequal relationship is an incredibly privileged and ignorant mindset. You are awfully quick to jump on protecting the feelings of the accused while immediately ignoring the humanity of the accuser, and that makes you just as culpable for the silent abuse of women as the perpetrators themselves. Opposing women speaking their truths is the same as shaming them into silence and perpetuating an atmosphere of victim blaming. This is not even getting into the fact that whatever happened, the feelings of the victim are valid and real, and that proving rape or sexual misconduct is a fairly ambiguous and often impossible task. Often, the official channels are ineffective and/or reinforce the idea that women should remain silent and be ignored, and sometimes the official channels don't exist at all. Imagine reporting sexual harassment to someone who believes you're just flirting badly. On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. On June 24 2020 17:53 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer.. what's your source on that? If you demonstrated that 95% of the accusations are real I maybe would've agreed that the 5% need to take the hit to straighten things out. But where's that data then? On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. @juvenal What's it like to be a complete piece of garbage? I see you there pretending to play devil's advocate but actually just straight up spreading your shit misogynistic mentality. You start by saying that no one should speak up and then after being bombarded with (logical and level-headed) pushback, you try to distract with forcing people to prove obscure numbers and invent strawman arguments before defaulting to the old tactic of pretending that you never said that people shouldn't share and shifting the blame back onto your debate opponents for not understanding what you said. I've seen these tricks used time and time again; it's an abusive behavior and commonly manifests itself in shitposter trolls, racists, and misogynists. Women deserve to be heard. Women deserve to name names. Proof is not a requirement for sharing your perspective. Fuck off. On June 24 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:29 Heartland wrote:On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. What you're suggesting has meant that people haven't spoken out and the problems have persisted. The current option is treated as a public lynch though. People do search other people before employment and any public stain is a big issue. There has to be channels to do this and social media isn't the right place. Which is the prime issue. Currently Rapid is in serious shit business wise. On June 24 2020 17:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now. Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president) If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from. (I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority) This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved. @deacon.frost While a bit less of a shitlord, you should be ashamed to be protecting the accused. As I said earlier, opposing the voice of women is the same as victimizing them the same way the perpetrator did. If you do not stand up to misogyny and misconduct, you are allowing it and complicit to the crime. It shouldn't matter what the exact number of people who are falsely accused is; the fact that there are any victims at all, much less a majority, should be reason enough for you to take these stories VERY seriously and throw solidarity and love behind them rather than brush them under the rug and criticize them as being "dangerous". No one should be made to feel ashamed of their body or their relationships with other people.It should break your fucking heart that the commonality between every one of these stories is not the conduct but the way it made these women ashamed in some way and threw blame on them. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 19:08 fededevi wrote:
While I completely support speaking up by anyone and I seriously doubt any of the shared stories are completely made up they have to be taken as what they are. Stories written by someone on the internet.
Unless you have serious, serious proof you should not make the names of the involved people public.. I mean you can.. but I think it is a very bad thing to do. And make it feels more like revenge than justice.
If there is a crime it should be prosecuted in the court.
If you know that someone is an asshole by your own experience, do your choice, exclude him/her from your life or don't if you choose so.
If you think the legal system does not work properly or does not cover certain behaviors properly then you should ask/discuss/protest do whatever to change that.
This is not a problem without solution, the solution is to provide people with channels to denounce improper behavior, change the legal system to make it easier for victims to denounce those behaviors or make them illegal or punishable.
The solution is not to use twitter as a public court.
The solution is not to drop the "presumption of innocence" principle.
At least that is what I think.
Also I want to add that these stories, even anonymous ones, have a lot of intrinsic value and we should use them to correct and adjust our behaviors rather than use them to judge and punish the involved people, especially when little to no evidence is provided.
Hell! This should be the final objective, to reduce this kind of behavior, not to have retribution.
Sorry for my english. I feel less strongly about this comment, but I really want to address the faux concept of "speak your truth, but don't name names". You need to understand that abusive behavior and sexual misconduct does more than just offend people. In the cases of these women, it robs them of their power and their agency. They are completely at the mercy of their oppressor for as long as they remain silent and suffering, and the only way to regain their agency and reclaim their power is by speaking out against the terrible acts committed against them and naming those responsible for it, especially if they are in a position of public influence and power. It is not a retribution so much as a protection for others who can and will fall victim to the same sort of abuse if nothing is ever done to bring these situations to light. Women shouldn't need to be afraid to tell a man to stop kissing them for fear that their career or their life might be ruined. Women shouldn't need to fear for their life when someone offers to take them home and doesn't stop following them when turned down. We've normalized these behaviors and then blamed women for bravely speaking up after they've spent months or years trying to untangle the trauma of these events, and it needs to stop. It needs to fucking stop. EDIT: Adding eon to the wall of shame, but he is redeemed On June 24 2020 21:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea. What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations? I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking. Even the girl that allegates the situation in real life said she casted with him years later.all these stories are odd. On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? On June 24 2020 22:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Let me put it straight im not defending sexual harass abuse.f*ck that people.and if thats the case with Rapid fuck him too.But im not covinced with what we do have now. On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny. Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. Thank you for admitting your denial. I still think we should consider the issue of jumping on board the belief that several women conspired to get Rapid into trouble as your first response to a sexual misconduct allegation as troubling, though. We need to do better about, at the very least, sympathizing with those who speak out and appreciate their struggle before we jump to conclusions about who is right or wrong. EDIT: Adding Spike to the wall of shame. On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. How dare you suggest that women need to be educated how to be properly sexual abused? First of all, if i could i would have reported you, this is as toxic post as it can get. If you cannot sustain a different opinion without attacking other persons, what are you if I am a shitlord? 2nd - What is wrong with you? attacking others for respecting the fact that false accusations are ruining lives of multiple people and that somebody dares to stand behind a person who's just been accused without any proof whatsover. How dare of us to respect one of the pilars the western society says it stands on(innocent until proven guilty, although doesn't work all the time) Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK. You realize Rapid's silence speaks volumes right? And hes not being crucified JUST over his social media harassment, but also his casting. Denying never helped when the mob is already there and angry. FFS, almost everyone in the prison is denying their crime(and mind you, there are innocent people there, not many, but they exist). Look, it doesn't look good for him, but I just wan't some restraint. He may have done it, he may have not, I have no idea, but I just can't stand aside when the mobs wants the witch. Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 03:57 dbRic1203 wrote:On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:
Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK.
When 3 statments from victimes don t convince you, what will? If Maryke gets a few Players from Team Serbia and Team South Africa in, are those more reliable than her? Or is that sismissed as well, because they would just help her cause and would lie just like her? At least a picture of some of the DMs? Look, I am not saying he hasn't done it, I am saying let's step back and wait for a while before burning the man's career and personal life. Aren't we supposed to be civilized about this? Doesn't look to me. Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 03:42 farvacola wrote:
He’s also not being crucified in any colloquial sense of the term, that’s deliberately obtuse hyperbole that fits neatly in the pattern of placing all of onus on victims and none on the accused. Please use more stupid terms, I'm a shitlord as a TL writer said and more importantly an idiot who doesn't speak English at such a high level. Thanks! The rest i posted above.
What mob?
Outside of those who are engaged in constant deflections from the issue the common consensus seems to be that ‘these seem like credible accusations that need to be answered’ over and above ‘hang Rapid he’s a monster’
Maybe I’m misreading the room but that’s my particular stance anyway.
While #BelieveWomen is a popular hashtag, really what it means is ‘take our concerns seriously’ rather than just dropping any critical faculties whatsoever and I feel is TLers have been doing the former for the most part.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 25 2020 04:07 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 04:04 deacon.frost wrote:On June 25 2020 04:02 farvacola wrote:
The vast majority of people in jail/prison, at least in the US, are there on guilty or no contest pleas, but go ahead with your inaccurate sense of the world and defense of sexual assault based on startlingly inaccurate analogies that leave one with a sneaking suspicion you’re compensating for something yourself. Do you read what i write or just insert your thoughts into my posts and replying to those? Like for real... Do you know what witch hunts, mob rule, and crucifixions actually are, or do you just use highly charged words when playing your role in excusing unacceptable behavior in a manner that totally decenters the victim?
I know and I simply don't know better terms, because - as I already said - I am an uneducated person. Feel free to replace my words with better ones, as you mutliple time showed, you have better English than I do. Which is so surprising, it's like being surprised my Czech is better than yours...
This is an internation forum and I'm trying my best to write my opinion. Am I using strong words? Yes. Do I know any others? No. Is my thought understandable - I think yes.
But hey, I bet you will find another wrong usage of words and use some high educated words I will have to find on the translator to show me my English is bad and not discuss what the thought is, so... I think I stop reacting to you.
On June 25 2020 04:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 03:59 deacon.frost wrote:On June 25 2020 03:40 Models wrote:On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:On June 24 2020 22:06 EsportsJohn wrote:Okay. Here we go. I'm going to be posting a wall of text, so forewarning. I've spent a good portion of the last 72 hours reading accounts of sexual harassment across the board, discussing these topics with other people, and throwing my solidarity behind other women. I am biased. I'm going to be very straightforward and probably quite incendiary here because my strong feelings for these scenarios bars me from calling out assholes and gaslighting dipshits in a level-headed and reasonable manner. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. On June 24 2020 09:07 Pangpootata wrote:
Remember that a basic rule of civilized society is innocent until proven guilty. If it's someone's verbal claim against another, more hard evidence has to be provided before coming to a conclusion. On June 24 2020 08:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. This. it wouldn't be the first time that fake accusations are being made even in this community. 1 Person saying something bad about someone shouldn't warrant a witch-hunt. On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. On June 24 2020 19:17 col_jung wrote:
No doubt real abuse is terrifying, but so is how easy it is to destroy someone's reputation on the internet without providing any proof.
If you want to publicly call out bad behaviour, that's OK. If you're going to do it without an inch of proof, then I'm not cool with that. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. This shit is absolutely DISGUSTING. If you are on the sidelines yelling "but what about presumption of innocence??", especially AT the victims, you need to fuck the fuck off and stay out of the discussion entirely. The whole idea that women who put their reputation and livelihood on the line need to show empiric proof of how they were treated in a clearly unequal relationship is an incredibly privileged and ignorant mindset. You are awfully quick to jump on protecting the feelings of the accused while immediately ignoring the humanity of the accuser, and that makes you just as culpable for the silent abuse of women as the perpetrators themselves. Opposing women speaking their truths is the same as shaming them into silence and perpetuating an atmosphere of victim blaming. This is not even getting into the fact that whatever happened, the feelings of the victim are valid and real, and that proving rape or sexual misconduct is a fairly ambiguous and often impossible task. Often, the official channels are ineffective and/or reinforce the idea that women should remain silent and be ignored, and sometimes the official channels don't exist at all. Imagine reporting sexual harassment to someone who believes you're just flirting badly. On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. On June 24 2020 17:53 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer.. what's your source on that? If you demonstrated that 95% of the accusations are real I maybe would've agreed that the 5% need to take the hit to straighten things out. But where's that data then? On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. @juvenal What's it like to be a complete piece of garbage? I see you there pretending to play devil's advocate but actually just straight up spreading your shit misogynistic mentality. You start by saying that no one should speak up and then after being bombarded with (logical and level-headed) pushback, you try to distract with forcing people to prove obscure numbers and invent strawman arguments before defaulting to the old tactic of pretending that you never said that people shouldn't share and shifting the blame back onto your debate opponents for not understanding what you said. I've seen these tricks used time and time again; it's an abusive behavior and commonly manifests itself in shitposter trolls, racists, and misogynists. Women deserve to be heard. Women deserve to name names. Proof is not a requirement for sharing your perspective. Fuck off. On June 24 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:29 Heartland wrote:On June 24 2020 18:25 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:16 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police? then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not. When did I say the stories must be true? I never said anything about the truth of any story, i'm saying we should hear victims out because otherwise we are doing a disservice to future victims of the same crimes, as well as telling a victim that they should just deal with it themselves and keep it 'our little secret', which is clearly bad. let everyone tell their stories. Just don't name people when you don't have any proof. It's as simple as that. We're repeating ourselves, I've already said all I wanted to say. Rapid's been accused of harassing a bunch of girls. His reputation has already been destroyed. This has been done by "hearing victims out", like you suggest, without requiring any proof. That's not alright. What you're suggesting has meant that people haven't spoken out and the problems have persisted. The current option is treated as a public lynch though. People do search other people before employment and any public stain is a big issue. There has to be channels to do this and social media isn't the right place. Which is the prime issue. Currently Rapid is in serious shit business wise. On June 24 2020 17:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now. Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president) If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from. (I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority) This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved. @deacon.frost While a bit less of a shitlord, you should be ashamed to be protecting the accused. As I said earlier, opposing the voice of women is the same as victimizing them the same way the perpetrator did. If you do not stand up to misogyny and misconduct, you are allowing it and complicit to the crime. It shouldn't matter what the exact number of people who are falsely accused is; the fact that there are any victims at all, much less a majority, should be reason enough for you to take these stories VERY seriously and throw solidarity and love behind them rather than brush them under the rug and criticize them as being "dangerous". No one should be made to feel ashamed of their body or their relationships with other people.It should break your fucking heart that the commonality between every one of these stories is not the conduct but the way it made these women ashamed in some way and threw blame on them. + Show Spoiler +On June 24 2020 19:08 fededevi wrote:
While I completely support speaking up by anyone and I seriously doubt any of the shared stories are completely made up they have to be taken as what they are. Stories written by someone on the internet.
Unless you have serious, serious proof you should not make the names of the involved people public.. I mean you can.. but I think it is a very bad thing to do. And make it feels more like revenge than justice.
If there is a crime it should be prosecuted in the court.
If you know that someone is an asshole by your own experience, do your choice, exclude him/her from your life or don't if you choose so.
If you think the legal system does not work properly or does not cover certain behaviors properly then you should ask/discuss/protest do whatever to change that.
This is not a problem without solution, the solution is to provide people with channels to denounce improper behavior, change the legal system to make it easier for victims to denounce those behaviors or make them illegal or punishable.
The solution is not to use twitter as a public court.
The solution is not to drop the "presumption of innocence" principle.
At least that is what I think.
Also I want to add that these stories, even anonymous ones, have a lot of intrinsic value and we should use them to correct and adjust our behaviors rather than use them to judge and punish the involved people, especially when little to no evidence is provided.
Hell! This should be the final objective, to reduce this kind of behavior, not to have retribution.
Sorry for my english. I feel less strongly about this comment, but I really want to address the faux concept of "speak your truth, but don't name names". You need to understand that abusive behavior and sexual misconduct does more than just offend people. In the cases of these women, it robs them of their power and their agency. They are completely at the mercy of their oppressor for as long as they remain silent and suffering, and the only way to regain their agency and reclaim their power is by speaking out against the terrible acts committed against them and naming those responsible for it, especially if they are in a position of public influence and power. It is not a retribution so much as a protection for others who can and will fall victim to the same sort of abuse if nothing is ever done to bring these situations to light. Women shouldn't need to be afraid to tell a man to stop kissing them for fear that their career or their life might be ruined. Women shouldn't need to fear for their life when someone offers to take them home and doesn't stop following them when turned down. We've normalized these behaviors and then blamed women for bravely speaking up after they've spent months or years trying to untangle the trauma of these events, and it needs to stop. It needs to fucking stop. EDIT: Adding eon to the wall of shame, but he is redeemed On June 24 2020 21:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea. What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations? I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking. Even the girl that allegates the situation in real life said she casted with him years later.all these stories are odd. On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? On June 24 2020 22:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Let me put it straight im not defending sexual harass abuse.f*ck that people.and if thats the case with Rapid fuck him too.But im not covinced with what we do have now. On June 24 2020 22:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny. Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. Thank you for admitting your denial. I still think we should consider the issue of jumping on board the belief that several women conspired to get Rapid into trouble as your first response to a sexual misconduct allegation as troubling, though. We need to do better about, at the very least, sympathizing with those who speak out and appreciate their struggle before we jump to conclusions about who is right or wrong. EDIT: Adding Spike to the wall of shame. On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
Go fuck yourself. Victim blaming is not okay. How dare you suggest that women need to be educated how to be properly sexual abused? First of all, if i could i would have reported you, this is as toxic post as it can get. If you cannot sustain a different opinion without attacking other persons, what are you if I am a shitlord? 2nd - What is wrong with you? attacking others for respecting the fact that false accusations are ruining lives of multiple people and that somebody dares to stand behind a person who's just been accused without any proof whatsover. How dare of us to respect one of the pilars the western society says it stands on(innocent until proven guilty, although doesn't work all the time) Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK. You realize Rapid's silence speaks volumes right? And hes not being crucified JUST over his social media harassment, but also his casting. Denying never helped when the mob is already there and angry. FFS, almost everyone in the prison is denying their crime(and mind you, there are innocent people there, not many, but they exist). Look, it doesn't look good for him, but I just wan't some restraint. He may have done it, he may have not, I have no idea, but I just can't stand aside when the mobs wants the witch. On June 25 2020 03:57 dbRic1203 wrote:On June 25 2020 03:36 deacon.frost wrote:
Seriously, I'm not gonna sit here and watch Rapid being crucified for some social media posts just because some people said so. Especially when some claim to receive DMs and don't post them, that's totally OK.
When 3 statments from victimes don t convince you, what will? If Maryke gets a few Players from Team Serbia and Team South Africa in, are those more reliable than her? Or is that sismissed as well, because they would just help her cause and would lie just like her? At least a picture of some of the DMs? Look, I am not saying he hasn't done it, I am saying let's step back and wait for a while before burning the man's career and personal life. Aren't we supposed to be civilized about this? Doesn't look to me. On June 25 2020 03:42 farvacola wrote:
He’s also not being crucified in any colloquial sense of the term, that’s deliberately obtuse hyperbole that fits neatly in the pattern of placing all of onus on victims and none on the accused. Please use more stupid terms, I'm a shitlord as a TL writer said and more importantly an idiot who doesn't speak English at such a high level. Thanks! The rest i posted above. What mob? Outside of those who are engaged in constant deflections from the issue the common consensus seems to be that ‘these seem like credible accusations that need to be answered’ over and above ‘hang Rapid he’s a monster’ Maybe I’m misreading the room but that’s my particular stance anyway. While #BelieveWomen is a popular hashtag, really what it means is ‘take our concerns seriously’ rather than just dropping any critical faculties whatsoever and I feel is TLers have been doing the former for the most part.
Don't know, maybe I'm misreading the stuff, but to me it seems plenty already have decided he has done that and they already have their assesment done and don't care what/if Rapid has to say into this. Maybe mob isn't the best of terms, see above, and some previous posts and posts before them.
_____________________
TO end this shit
What I'm trying to say is to wait with the judgement for better situation
1) If/what Rapid will say
2) Maybe some others will emerge with some pictures of the stuff which would change this
+ Show Spoiler +
I actually have some personal experience with this shit and our family has been on the side of a false accusation. Remember - to have this persecuted you have to prove the intent which we couldn't. 2 year court battle against that shit just because few people lied. Wonderful. Again, I am not saying those are false accusation, or that Rapid hasn't done anything he's been accused of. All I'm asking is for some restraint and don't do harsh things which can ruin lives.
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On June 25 2020 04:17 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 04:07 farvacola wrote:On June 25 2020 04:04 deacon.frost wrote:On June 25 2020 04:02 farvacola wrote:
The vast majority of people in jail/prison, at least in the US, are there on guilty or no contest pleas, but go ahead with your inaccurate sense of the world and defense of sexual assault based on startlingly inaccurate analogies that leave one with a sneaking suspicion you’re compensating for something yourself. Do you read what i write or just insert your thoughts into my posts and replying to those? Like for real... Do you know what witch hunts, mob rule, and crucifixions actually are, or do you just use highly charged words when playing your role in excusing unacceptable behavior in a manner that totally decenters the victim? I know and I simply don't know better terms, because - as I already said - I am an uneducated person. Feel free to replace my words with better ones, as you mutliple time showed, you have better English than I do. Which is so surprising, it's like being surprised my Czech is better than yours... This is an internation forum and I'm trying my best to write my opinion. Am I using strong words? Yes. Do I know any others? No. Is my thought understandable - I think yes. But hey, I bet you will find another wrong usage of words and use some high educated words I will have to find on the translator to show me my English is bad and not discuss what the thought is, so... I think I stop reacting to you.
This thread is full to the brim with non-native English speakers who used very different words to express their view, so don't hide behind a lack of command of the English language and own the fact that you think it's unfair that people are taking the words of multiple victims at face value with reference to the intolerable acts of a prominent community figure.
A core tenet of identifying and addressing the harms of our culture of silencing and blaming victims is to look to the words we use to describe an alleged sexual assault. That's why loaded terms like witch hunts and crucifixions are not harmless little colloquial variations, they are bricks in the walls put up every time a woman comes forward with a difficult to substantiate claim of having been sexually assaulted. Words matter.
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I hope that any potentially criminal actions are brought to the attention of the police.
And that any inappropriate actions that do not reach up to that standard are condemned according to their severity.
And I hope that anyone accused of either is going to be given a fair hearing, whether the court be legal or merely that of the public opinion.
Yet I highly doubt that any of those things are going to happen to a particularly exacting standard.
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On June 25 2020 04:10 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 04:08 Elmonti wrote:
I am convinced the guy said and did everything he has been accused of, but I agree with Deacon Frost in the part that we should wait to hear what RAPiD has to say. That is undeniable.
If we can be reasonably certain that he's a creep who can't keep his genitalia to himself, what exactly are we waiting for in expecting a response from him?
imagine that something like this happens to you. Then, before you get the chance to defend, I'll say loud and clear "what are we waiting for? This creep can't say anything of value". Also, nice gaslighting. Keep genitalia to himself? I didn't see any rape accusations towards rapid. One of the stories had dick pics in it, that's about how bad it got.
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On June 25 2020 04:26 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 04:10 farvacola wrote:On June 25 2020 04:08 Elmonti wrote:
I am convinced the guy said and did everything he has been accused of, but I agree with Deacon Frost in the part that we should wait to hear what RAPiD has to say. That is undeniable.
If we can be reasonably certain that he's a creep who can't keep his genitalia to himself, what exactly are we waiting for in expecting a response from him? imagine that something like this happens to you. Then, before you get the chance to defend, I'll say loud and clear "what are we waiting for? This creep can't say anything of value". Also, nice gaslighting. Keep genitalia to himself? I didn't see any rape accusations towards rapid. One of the stories had dick pics in it, that's about how bad it got.
dick pic to underage girl*. I don't know man, but that's pretty bad for a "that's about how bad it got."
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