|
On May 28 2020 11:49 AcrossFromTime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 11:38 RKC wrote:
As fun as the series was, the most 'deserving' player won. Agreed, when Protoss players win they don't deserve it haha  jk
I'm actually more of a Protoss fan in SC2. And I really dislike Terran proxy cheeses. In similar fashion, I'm less impressed with Protoss timing attacks, hence appreciate more well-rounded players like Zest, Classic, and even sOs.
That said, I can appreciate how well-prepared TY came into the game, and how seriously he took Parting as a threat.
|
I felt like PartinG just crumbled under the pressure.
In the Ro8 he didn t expect a anything but to get utterly destroyed. He could Play freely and had no pressure whatsoever.
This time around it was realy different and you could se how much he was shaking and moving in his chair.
Game 1 was unfortunate for him and put him of balance. From them on he was way to nervous.
He made the best out of it, but it wasn t enough. Hopefully he can work on his mindset and comes in more relaxed the next time, as that s defnatly the best PartinG there is.
|
On May 28 2020 13:47 RKC wrote:
Parting's blink-stalker timing attack looks pretty strong. Even if the attack doesn't kill Terran, Protoss can macro safely behind to build an advantage for the late game (like G6). Dismantled Maru, and won games off TY. So strong that it probably forced them to pull of cheesy openings to delay or disrupt the timing.
I'm somewhat surprised Terran doesn't have a better counter (aside from cheesy openings). Mix some marauders in? Defensive widow mines instead of tanks (mines can also be used for offensive drops easily)?
The thing is mines are easy to dodge with blink. Tanks come out way too slow for blink. If you put a tech lab instead of a reactor on the rax, you don't get enough marauders to make a difference.
I agree with a previous post. Cheesing shouldn't be a way to counter something too strong. Blink stalker lets you take fast 3rd without really worrying about anything. This game also just shows you how bad protoss players are at micro, but eventually, when the toss players practice, I reckon that skill level will go up
|
On May 28 2020 09:43 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 09:23 kajtarp wrote:
I hope TY lifts up the trophy. It's now or never... He has a pretty good shot, but TvT is the worst matchup for the kind of cheesy shenanigans that TY relied on to get past Dark and Parting. And of course, your opponent can always do it right back. There may or may not be a mental factor in TY's head as well–he has 2 GSL silvers already and number 3 would start putting him in soO territory. Also, Inno's TvT has looked extremely strong as of late–his recent record is significantly better than TY's–and he's seemingly abandoned his former hesitation about embracing cheesy shenanigans of his own. Refer to double proxy BC.
I suspect TY won't feel a need to play cheesy in TvT given that he said it's his most confident MU. For what it's worth TY and Inno are at 7-7, 2-2 this year with TY winning the more recent matches.
|
On May 28 2020 14:31 doggietres wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 13:47 RKC wrote:
Parting's blink-stalker timing attack looks pretty strong. Even if the attack doesn't kill Terran, Protoss can macro safely behind to build an advantage for the late game (like G6). Dismantled Maru, and won games off TY. So strong that it probably forced them to pull of cheesy openings to delay or disrupt the timing.
I'm somewhat surprised Terran doesn't have a better counter (aside from cheesy openings). Mix some marauders in? Defensive widow mines instead of tanks (mines can also be used for offensive drops easily)? The thing is mines are easy to dodge with blink. Tanks come out way too slow for blink. If you put a tech lab instead of a reactor on the rax, you don't get enough marauders to make a difference. I agree with a previous post. Cheesing shouldn't be a way to counter something too strong. Blink stalker lets you take fast 3rd without really worrying about anything. This game also just shows you how bad protoss players are at micro, but eventually, when the toss players practice, I reckon that skill level will go up
I guess blink-stalker openings are pretty strong then!
Are stargate openers no longer viable or weak in the current PvT meta? I've not seen them much in the recent GSL games.
The great thing about sOs and Classic is that no matter the meta, they have a deep bag of builds (or as Toss haters call it - Protoss Book of Bullshit). It's hard to win a tournament without having a wide range of plays for 'mind-games' - more so for a GSL-style tourney where games can be prepared in advance. That Parting got this far is already an achievement, I suppose. The real Protoss hope is Trap?
|
Austria24417 Posts
On May 28 2020 14:31 doggietres wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 13:47 RKC wrote:
Parting's blink-stalker timing attack looks pretty strong. Even if the attack doesn't kill Terran, Protoss can macro safely behind to build an advantage for the late game (like G6). Dismantled Maru, and won games off TY. So strong that it probably forced them to pull of cheesy openings to delay or disrupt the timing.
I'm somewhat surprised Terran doesn't have a better counter (aside from cheesy openings). Mix some marauders in? Defensive widow mines instead of tanks (mines can also be used for offensive drops easily)? The thing is mines are easy to dodge with blink. Tanks come out way too slow for blink. If you put a tech lab instead of a reactor on the rax, you don't get enough marauders to make a difference. I agree with a previous post. Cheesing shouldn't be a way to counter something too strong. Blink stalker lets you take fast 3rd without really worrying about anything. This game also just shows you how bad protoss players are at micro, but eventually, when the toss players practice, I reckon that skill level will go up
Almost all of this is wrong. Blink is the preferred opening because it can handle the largest variety of Terran openings, but Parting's specific 4gate variant is only powerful in the meta right now because Terrans are being greedy with their tech after expand. They'll follow up with a 1-1-1 setup, do mine or hellion drops, add an ebay and delay stim for all that. Some even go 1-1-1, Ebay, third CC, then additional rax. You can go back to Maru vs Parting and see how it did against a more robust 3rax followup - it did nothing and Parting lost.
But no, even tanks don't come out too slowly to defend it. The only reason TY died to Parting's attack on Eternal Empire is because his positioning and control was poor and he kept bleeding tanks so that he never had enough to cover two bases. He continuously had siege tanks unprotected and units in vulnerable positions - marines in the main and tank visible on the ramp, tank on the edge of the main cliff, then no marines in his bunker in the main. Front door wide open for stalkers to walk in. Compare that to the Nightshade game and you see how hard it can be to get anything done as the blink aggressor if Terran defends properly. Second bunker in the front, tanks protected behind rax in the main. Parting got very little done, had to commit in deep because 4gate blink is a big investment that requires returns, and TY happily deflected him. You're delaying upgrades, tech, and keeping your probe count low to do it, only to end up with a handful of bruised stalkers if it doesn't do significant damage. It's a strong build no doubt, but it isn't too strong by any means.
As for expand builds, blink is very useful but not too powerful by any means. It's the only really useful tool you have to keep Terran contained for a while, slow them down as they move across the map, and get the necessary army up to defend their pushes. SG is frankly not very good anymore after the charge nerf. You just don't have the straight up fighting power to beat the super common marine/tank pushes reliably with a charge followup, and blink after SG dies even harder. Phoenix/colossus is somewhat useful again, but that's quite weak to a lot of other things Terran could be doing (3rax +1 timing, for example) and you can be pretty committed to it before you know what it is they're doing. Also highly map dependent.
Lastly, I'd appreciate if you stopped calling top Protoss poor at micro. To put it mildly, that's absolute bullshit.
|
On May 28 2020 14:37 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 09:43 pvsnp wrote:On May 28 2020 09:23 kajtarp wrote:
I hope TY lifts up the trophy. It's now or never... He has a pretty good shot, but TvT is the worst matchup for the kind of cheesy shenanigans that TY relied on to get past Dark and Parting. And of course, your opponent can always do it right back. There may or may not be a mental factor in TY's head as well–he has 2 GSL silvers already and number 3 would start putting him in soO territory. Also, Inno's TvT has looked extremely strong as of late–his recent record is significantly better than TY's–and he's seemingly abandoned his former hesitation about embracing cheesy shenanigans of his own. Refer to double proxy BC. I suspect TY won't feel a need to play cheesy in TvT given that he said it's his most confident MU. For what it's worth TY and Inno are at 7-7, 2-2 this year with TY winning the more recent matches.
I just realized that I completely forgot to mention Cure.
I like how you didn't even question it though 
|
On May 28 2020 15:49 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 14:31 doggietres wrote:On May 28 2020 13:47 RKC wrote:
Parting's blink-stalker timing attack looks pretty strong. Even if the attack doesn't kill Terran, Protoss can macro safely behind to build an advantage for the late game (like G6). Dismantled Maru, and won games off TY. So strong that it probably forced them to pull of cheesy openings to delay or disrupt the timing.
I'm somewhat surprised Terran doesn't have a better counter (aside from cheesy openings). Mix some marauders in? Defensive widow mines instead of tanks (mines can also be used for offensive drops easily)? The thing is mines are easy to dodge with blink. Tanks come out way too slow for blink. If you put a tech lab instead of a reactor on the rax, you don't get enough marauders to make a difference. I agree with a previous post. Cheesing shouldn't be a way to counter something too strong. Blink stalker lets you take fast 3rd without really worrying about anything. This game also just shows you how bad protoss players are at micro, but eventually, when the toss players practice, I reckon that skill level will go up Almost all of this is wrong. Blink is the preferred opening because it can handle the largest variety of Terran openings, but Parting's specific 4gate variant is only powerful in the meta right now because Terrans are being greedy with their tech after expand. They'll follow up with a 1-1-1 setup, do mine or hellion drops, add an ebay and delay stim for all that. Some even go 1-1-1, Ebay, third CC, then additional rax. You can go back to Maru vs Parting and see how it did against a more robust 3rax followup - it did nothing and Parting lost. But no, even tanks don't come out too slowly to defend it. The only reason TY died to Parting's attack on Eternal Empire is because his positioning and control was poor and he kept bleeding tanks so that he never had enough to cover two bases. He continuously had siege tanks unprotected and units in vulnerable positions - marines in the main and tank visible on the ramp, tank on the edge of the main cliff, then no marines in his bunker in the main. Front door wide open for stalkers to walk in. Compare that to the Nightshade game and you see how hard it can be to get anything done as the blink aggressor if Terran defends properly. Second bunker in the front, tanks protected behind rax in the main. Parting got very little done, had to commit in deep because 4gate blink is a big investment that requires returns, and TY happily deflected him. You're delaying upgrades, tech, and keeping your probe count low to do it, only to end up with a handful of bruised stalkers if it doesn't do significant damage. It's a strong build no doubt, but it isn't too strong by any means. As for expand builds, blink is very useful but not too powerful by any means. It's the only really useful tool you have to keep Terran contained for a while, slow them down as they move across the map, and get the necessary army up to defend their pushes. SG is frankly not very good anymore after the charge nerf. You just don't have the straight up fighting power to beat the super common marine/tank pushes reliably with a charge followup, and blink after SG dies even harder. Phoenix/colossus is somewhat useful again, but that's quite weak to a lot of other things Terran could be doing (3rax +1 timing, for example) and you can be pretty committed to it before you know what it is they're doing. Also highly map dependent. Lastly, I'd appreciate if you stopped calling top Protoss poor at micro. To put it mildly, that's absolute bullshit.
i think you are a right with a lot if this. but interestingly parting wasnt behind after the failed 4 gate blink stalker strategy beside ty hold it perfectly. if he would not have a-clicked 1/2 of his army with his following timing attack on the 3. base he would have won, wouldnt he?
|
On May 28 2020 16:02 DarkGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 15:49 Olli wrote:On May 28 2020 14:31 doggietres wrote:On May 28 2020 13:47 RKC wrote:
Parting's blink-stalker timing attack looks pretty strong. Even if the attack doesn't kill Terran, Protoss can macro safely behind to build an advantage for the late game (like G6). Dismantled Maru, and won games off TY. So strong that it probably forced them to pull of cheesy openings to delay or disrupt the timing.
I'm somewhat surprised Terran doesn't have a better counter (aside from cheesy openings). Mix some marauders in? Defensive widow mines instead of tanks (mines can also be used for offensive drops easily)? The thing is mines are easy to dodge with blink. Tanks come out way too slow for blink. If you put a tech lab instead of a reactor on the rax, you don't get enough marauders to make a difference. I agree with a previous post. Cheesing shouldn't be a way to counter something too strong. Blink stalker lets you take fast 3rd without really worrying about anything. This game also just shows you how bad protoss players are at micro, but eventually, when the toss players practice, I reckon that skill level will go up Almost all of this is wrong. Blink is the preferred opening because it can handle the largest variety of Terran openings, but Parting's specific 4gate variant is only powerful in the meta right now because Terrans are being greedy with their tech after expand. They'll follow up with a 1-1-1 setup, do mine or hellion drops, add an ebay and delay stim for all that. Some even go 1-1-1, Ebay, third CC, then additional rax. You can go back to Maru vs Parting and see how it did against a more robust 3rax followup - it did nothing and Parting lost. But no, even tanks don't come out too slowly to defend it. The only reason TY died to Parting's attack on Eternal Empire is because his positioning and control was poor and he kept bleeding tanks so that he never had enough to cover two bases. He continuously had siege tanks unprotected and units in vulnerable positions - marines in the main and tank visible on the ramp, tank on the edge of the main cliff, then no marines in his bunker in the main. Front door wide open for stalkers to walk in. Compare that to the Nightshade game and you see how hard it can be to get anything done as the blink aggressor if Terran defends properly. Second bunker in the front, tanks protected behind rax in the main. Parting got very little done, had to commit in deep because 4gate blink is a big investment that requires returns, and TY happily deflected him. You're delaying upgrades, tech, and keeping your probe count low to do it, only to end up with a handful of bruised stalkers if it doesn't do significant damage. It's a strong build no doubt, but it isn't too strong by any means. As for expand builds, blink is very useful but not too powerful by any means. It's the only really useful tool you have to keep Terran contained for a while, slow them down as they move across the map, and get the necessary army up to defend their pushes. SG is frankly not very good anymore after the charge nerf. You just don't have the straight up fighting power to beat the super common marine/tank pushes reliably with a charge followup, and blink after SG dies even harder. Phoenix/colossus is somewhat useful again, but that's quite weak to a lot of other things Terran could be doing (3rax +1 timing, for example) and you can be pretty committed to it before you know what it is they're doing. Also highly map dependent. Lastly, I'd appreciate if you stopped calling top Protoss poor at micro. To put it mildly, that's absolute bullshit. i think you are a right with a lot if this. but interestingly parting wasnt behind after the failed 4 gate blink stalker strategy beside ty hold it perfectly. if he would not have a-clicked 1/2 of his army with his following timing attack on the 3. base he would have won, wouldnt he?
Yes, in G6, Parting managed to gain an economic lead despite TY holding off his blink-stalker aggression. Perhaps TY may have gained a slender tech lead due to Parting delaying his robo and forge upgrades? Either way, things just even out - the build looks pretty solid and strong (as Protoss takes the initiative, gains map control, and has the opportunity to punish if not kill off Terran).
So what's Terran optimal counter then? Mech? 
|
On May 28 2020 15:49 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 14:31 doggietres wrote:On May 28 2020 13:47 RKC wrote:
Parting's blink-stalker timing attack looks pretty strong. Even if the attack doesn't kill Terran, Protoss can macro safely behind to build an advantage for the late game (like G6). Dismantled Maru, and won games off TY. So strong that it probably forced them to pull of cheesy openings to delay or disrupt the timing.
I'm somewhat surprised Terran doesn't have a better counter (aside from cheesy openings). Mix some marauders in? Defensive widow mines instead of tanks (mines can also be used for offensive drops easily)? The thing is mines are easy to dodge with blink. Tanks come out way too slow for blink. If you put a tech lab instead of a reactor on the rax, you don't get enough marauders to make a difference. I agree with a previous post. Cheesing shouldn't be a way to counter something too strong. Blink stalker lets you take fast 3rd without really worrying about anything. This game also just shows you how bad protoss players are at micro, but eventually, when the toss players practice, I reckon that skill level will go up Almost all of this is wrong. Blink is the preferred opening because it can handle the largest variety of Terran openings, but Parting's specific 4gate variant is only powerful in the meta right now because Terrans are being greedy with their tech after expand. They'll follow up with a 1-1-1 setup, do mine or hellion drops, add an ebay and delay stim for all that. Some even go 1-1-1, Ebay, third CC, then additional rax. You can go back to Maru vs Parting and see how it did against a more robust 3rax followup - it did nothing and Parting lost. But no, even tanks don't come out too slowly to defend it. The only reason TY died to Parting's attack on Eternal Empire is because his positioning and control was poor and he kept bleeding tanks so that he never had enough to cover two bases. He continuously had siege tanks unprotected and units in vulnerable positions - marines in the main and tank visible on the ramp, tank on the edge of the main cliff, then no marines in his bunker in the main. Front door wide open for stalkers to walk in. Compare that to the Nightshade game and you see how hard it can be to get anything done as the blink aggressor if Terran defends properly. Second bunker in the front, tanks protected behind rax in the main. Parting got very little done, had to commit in deep because 4gate blink is a big investment that requires returns, and TY happily deflected him. You're delaying upgrades, tech, and keeping your probe count low to do it, only to end up with a handful of bruised stalkers if it doesn't do significant damage. It's a strong build no doubt, but it isn't too strong by any means. As for expand builds, blink is very useful but not too powerful by any means. It's the only really useful tool you have to keep Terran contained for a while, slow them down as they move across the map, and get the necessary army up to defend their pushes. SG is frankly not very good anymore after the charge nerf. You just don't have the straight up fighting power to beat the super common marine/tank pushes reliably with a charge followup, and blink after SG dies even harder. Phoenix/colossus is somewhat useful again, but that's quite weak to a lot of other things Terran could be doing (3rax +1 timing, for example) and you can be pretty committed to it before you know what it is they're doing. Also highly map dependent. Lastly, I'd appreciate if you stopped calling top Protoss poor at micro. To put it mildly, that's absolute bullshit.
Also, one thing I noticed - if you watched the Cure vs Dear match, you can see that Cure took many precautions when dealing with the Blink opener. Things like having 5-6 SCVs already pre-surround on the Bunker.
One thing I didn't understand about TY's play on Eternal Empire was that he already knew he fried many probes and all he had to do was holdout reasonably to that blink play. I didn't understand why he didn't take the precautions Cure took, for instance. Surely sacrificing the mining of 5-6 SCVs would've been worth it.
|
I am going to be probably temp banned for this post but anyways :
In the last game, Parting made uncommon and UNCHARACTERISTIC mistakes which is for me very suspicious.
Sending only half of his armies while he could have ended the game right there (he was extremely far ahead) and leaving half of his army not doing ANYTHING? Parting, the guy who has a phenomenal micro management normally!
|
I am going to be probably temp banned for this post but anyways :
In the last game, Parting made uncommon and UNCHARACTERISTIC mistakes which is for me very suspicious.
Sending only half of his armies while he could have ended the game right there (he was extremely far ahead) and leaving half of his army not doing ANYTHING? Parting, the guy who has a phenomenal micro management normally!
Then through all game, not moving probes to nukes and sending zealots and dts to suicide attacks.
There has to be something very fishy, and he was not even THAT sad after losing the series.
I am sorry but it really smells MATCH FIXING for me.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
Unfortunately got to admit that recently in Korea top protosses do not show the level they should. Parting was brilliant against Maru but such micro style is hard to be kept consistently. Not sure how the current meta is fine or not but at least this time... TY, if you can read this - please take that damn Code S trophy, we've been waiting for it at least for 5 years.
But overall, I'm disappointed by the toss power. sOs plays like he doesn't care anymore. Yeah, the hidden nexus in Bunny's back looks cool but this is not serious if you really want to do something significant to the final. Zest was humiliated which is like something you can't imagine for such a monster in the past. Trap is not Trap from the last year and yet he was kind of close to surprise Inno. Stats is fading. Dear was actually the greatest disappointment. It could be Scarlett or Rogue on his place in Ro8. Classic is in the military and I really miss him. Honestly seems like only Rain can switch again to SC2 and do something worth but he have won all that could be won already
|
On May 28 2020 16:34 atchosvk wrote:
I am going to be probably temp banned for this post but anyways :
In the last game, Parting made uncommon and UNCHARACTERISTIC mistakes which is for me very suspicious.
Sending only half of his armies while he could have ended the game right there (he was extremely far ahead) and leaving half of his army not doing ANYTHING? Parting, the guy who has a phenomenal micro management normally!
Then through all game, not moving probes to nukes and sending zealots and dts to suicide attacks.
There has to be something very fishy, and he was not even THAT sad after losing the series.
I am sorry but it really smells MATCH FIXING for me.
I disagree. Parting is emotional guy, and there are many times that emotions forced him to make mistakes. I remember 2 archon warp prism throw at some terran not too long ago.
Keep this in mind, add 3 loses in a row, all 3 were interrupting his game plan (so, that's not "I did what I could").
You'll get a person who is clearly tilted. It was visible on the player cam for a long time.
And even after the break. Yes, he fought back 2 games, but his mental state haven't changed, as you can see from the cam.
So, last game was about YOLO I'll throw everything at you. Mistakes were not only about half an army movement, mistakes were also about army comp. Where are immortals? Air? He just played more or less brainless, and for me - that a clear tilt, and nothing to do with match fixing.
|
To everyone talking about Parting's mistakes, I don't think you understand how shaky the nerves make you when you're down 0-3 in a bo7. You're still shaking even if you manage to even it up. It's exponentially worse when cheese and hidden attacks come your way throughout the series. Parting is calmest when he is the aggressor and controlling the flow of the game. TY was brilliant to not give him that.
Still hope Cure wins it all for that underdog story.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 28 2020 16:41 Veluvian wrote:
Unfortunately got to admit that recently in Korea top protosses do not show the level they should. Parting was brilliant against Maru but such micro style is hard to be kept consistently. Not sure how the current meta is fine or not but at least this time... TY, if you can read this - please take that damn Code S trophy, we've been waiting for it at least for 5 years.
But overall, I'm disappointed by the toss power. sOs plays like he doesn't care anymore. Yeah, the hidden nexus in Bunny's back looks cool but this is not serious if you really want to do something significant to the final. Zest was humiliated which is like something you can't imagine for such a monster in the past. Trap is not Trap from the last year and yet he was kind of close to surprise Inno. Stats is fading. Dear was actually the greatest disappointment. It could be Scarlett or Rogue on his place in Ro8. Classic is in the military and I really miss him. Honestly seems like only Rain can switch again to SC2 and do something worth but he have won all that could be won already
Maru lost because for whatever reason he didn't play like Maru. Don't know who advocated for that play, but it was really stupid idea.
Korea doesn't have top Protosses anymore, closest players are Dear, Trap and Zest and we have to rely on them to play well. Which means Dear/Trap find their lost mojo. Zest is just randomly the best in LotV as it seems, sadly.
Stats is fading because his army departure is near.
On May 28 2020 17:06 Regisko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 16:34 atchosvk wrote:
I am going to be probably temp banned for this post but anyways :
In the last game, Parting made uncommon and UNCHARACTERISTIC mistakes which is for me very suspicious.
Sending only half of his armies while he could have ended the game right there (he was extremely far ahead) and leaving half of his army not doing ANYTHING? Parting, the guy who has a phenomenal micro management normally!
Then through all game, not moving probes to nukes and sending zealots and dts to suicide attacks.
There has to be something very fishy, and he was not even THAT sad after losing the series.
I am sorry but it really smells MATCH FIXING for me.
I disagree. Parting is emotional guy, and there are many times that emotions forced him to make mistakes. I remember 2 archon warp prism throw at some terran not too long ago. Keep this in mind, add 3 loses in a row, all 3 were interrupting his game plan (so, that's not "I did what I could"). You'll get a person who is clearly tilted. It was visible on the player cam for a long time. And even after the break. Yes, he fought back 2 games, but his mental state haven't changed, as you can see from the cam. So, last game was about YOLO I'll throw everything at you. Mistakes were not only about half an army movement, mistakes were also about army comp. Where are immortals? Air? He just played more or less brainless, and for me - that a clear tilt, and nothing to do with match fixing.
6th map was the map to lose for Parting, sadly he didn't get any map earlier. There's a reason why it was 6th. He could have won, but sadly did mistakes, but IMO part of the mistake was knowing this map is hard to win.
|
Austria24417 Posts
On May 28 2020 17:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 16:41 Veluvian wrote:
Unfortunately got to admit that recently in Korea top protosses do not show the level they should. Parting was brilliant against Maru but such micro style is hard to be kept consistently. Not sure how the current meta is fine or not but at least this time... TY, if you can read this - please take that damn Code S trophy, we've been waiting for it at least for 5 years.
But overall, I'm disappointed by the toss power. sOs plays like he doesn't care anymore. Yeah, the hidden nexus in Bunny's back looks cool but this is not serious if you really want to do something significant to the final. Zest was humiliated which is like something you can't imagine for such a monster in the past. Trap is not Trap from the last year and yet he was kind of close to surprise Inno. Stats is fading. Dear was actually the greatest disappointment. It could be Scarlett or Rogue on his place in Ro8. Classic is in the military and I really miss him. Honestly seems like only Rain can switch again to SC2 and do something worth but he have won all that could be won already Maru lost because for whatever reason he didn't play like Maru. Don't know who advocated for that play, but it was really stupid idea. Korea doesn't have top Protosses anymore, closest players are Dear, Trap and Zest and we have to rely on them to play well. Which means Dear/Trap find their lost mojo. Zest is just randomly the best in LotV as it seems, sadly. Stats is fading because his army departure is near.
All three races in Korea nowadays have only a handful of absolute top players, unfortunately. For Terran it's Maru, Innovation, TY, Cure, with Dream and Taeja slowly getting there again. For Protoss it's Zest, Trap and a fading Stats, with Dear and Patience middling and Parting getting back to a high level. For Zerg you only really have Rogue, Dark, and then I'd say Ragnarok, soO and DRG.
The thing is, among those top players, only Terrans and Zergs actually win tournaments. At the very top level, Protoss has been in a pretty sorry state for a while. It's been over a year since a Protoss last won a big tournament (Classic in Super Tournament).
On May 28 2020 16:14 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 16:02 DarkGamer wrote:On May 28 2020 15:49 Olli wrote:On May 28 2020 14:31 doggietres wrote:On May 28 2020 13:47 RKC wrote:
Parting's blink-stalker timing attack looks pretty strong. Even if the attack doesn't kill Terran, Protoss can macro safely behind to build an advantage for the late game (like G6). Dismantled Maru, and won games off TY. So strong that it probably forced them to pull of cheesy openings to delay or disrupt the timing.
I'm somewhat surprised Terran doesn't have a better counter (aside from cheesy openings). Mix some marauders in? Defensive widow mines instead of tanks (mines can also be used for offensive drops easily)? The thing is mines are easy to dodge with blink. Tanks come out way too slow for blink. If you put a tech lab instead of a reactor on the rax, you don't get enough marauders to make a difference. I agree with a previous post. Cheesing shouldn't be a way to counter something too strong. Blink stalker lets you take fast 3rd without really worrying about anything. This game also just shows you how bad protoss players are at micro, but eventually, when the toss players practice, I reckon that skill level will go up Almost all of this is wrong. Blink is the preferred opening because it can handle the largest variety of Terran openings, but Parting's specific 4gate variant is only powerful in the meta right now because Terrans are being greedy with their tech after expand. They'll follow up with a 1-1-1 setup, do mine or hellion drops, add an ebay and delay stim for all that. Some even go 1-1-1, Ebay, third CC, then additional rax. You can go back to Maru vs Parting and see how it did against a more robust 3rax followup - it did nothing and Parting lost. But no, even tanks don't come out too slowly to defend it. The only reason TY died to Parting's attack on Eternal Empire is because his positioning and control was poor and he kept bleeding tanks so that he never had enough to cover two bases. He continuously had siege tanks unprotected and units in vulnerable positions - marines in the main and tank visible on the ramp, tank on the edge of the main cliff, then no marines in his bunker in the main. Front door wide open for stalkers to walk in. Compare that to the Nightshade game and you see how hard it can be to get anything done as the blink aggressor if Terran defends properly. Second bunker in the front, tanks protected behind rax in the main. Parting got very little done, had to commit in deep because 4gate blink is a big investment that requires returns, and TY happily deflected him. You're delaying upgrades, tech, and keeping your probe count low to do it, only to end up with a handful of bruised stalkers if it doesn't do significant damage. It's a strong build no doubt, but it isn't too strong by any means. As for expand builds, blink is very useful but not too powerful by any means. It's the only really useful tool you have to keep Terran contained for a while, slow them down as they move across the map, and get the necessary army up to defend their pushes. SG is frankly not very good anymore after the charge nerf. You just don't have the straight up fighting power to beat the super common marine/tank pushes reliably with a charge followup, and blink after SG dies even harder. Phoenix/colossus is somewhat useful again, but that's quite weak to a lot of other things Terran could be doing (3rax +1 timing, for example) and you can be pretty committed to it before you know what it is they're doing. Also highly map dependent. Lastly, I'd appreciate if you stopped calling top Protoss poor at micro. To put it mildly, that's absolute bullshit. i think you are a right with a lot if this. but interestingly parting wasnt behind after the failed 4 gate blink stalker strategy beside ty hold it perfectly. if he would not have a-clicked 1/2 of his army with his following timing attack on the 3. base he would have won, wouldnt he? Yes, in G6, Parting managed to gain an economic lead despite TY holding off his blink-stalker aggression. Perhaps TY may have gained a slender tech lead due to Parting delaying his robo and forge upgrades? Either way, things just even out - the build looks pretty solid and strong (as Protoss takes the initiative, gains map control, and has the opportunity to punish if not kill off Terran). So what's Terran optimal counter then? Mech?
Parting wasn't ahead economically. TY finished his third CC while Parting's attack was still going on. TY lost 25 gas worth of units during that whole attack, Parting lost 500, with comparable mineral losses. Worker counts were at 42 (TY) to 53 (Parting) when the attack ended and Parting had only just started his third base while TY was dropping triple MULEs. That's not an economic lead, if anything I'd give an edge to TY there. And tech-wise TY was definitely ahead too, with stim and combat shields finishing, tanks, a starport done for medivac production, 4th and 5th rax already being built while Parting was on stalkers and a forge, only getting a robotics bay. TY also got double ebay down pretty fast after the attack so his 1/1 finished when Parting was only on +1 attack and a single forge.
An economic lead for Parting only came later, after he scouted that TY chose a really passive approach to the midgame with double factory, straight into ghost academy and 4th CC, and Parting responded by expanding aggressively, as you're supposed to against turtle styles. Parting saw that and wanted to commit to an attack to do some damage and slow TY down, I assume because he knew he was behind and didn't want to let TY just macro, but it failed and Parting was always quite far behind from there.
It's a strong build no doubt, and it isn't all-in as you can expand, try to contain and transition, but you're certainly looking for some damage or you'll end up behind.
|
On May 28 2020 15:52 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 14:37 Elentos wrote:On May 28 2020 09:43 pvsnp wrote:On May 28 2020 09:23 kajtarp wrote:
I hope TY lifts up the trophy. It's now or never... He has a pretty good shot, but TvT is the worst matchup for the kind of cheesy shenanigans that TY relied on to get past Dark and Parting. And of course, your opponent can always do it right back. There may or may not be a mental factor in TY's head as well–he has 2 GSL silvers already and number 3 would start putting him in soO territory. Also, Inno's TvT has looked extremely strong as of late–his recent record is significantly better than TY's–and he's seemingly abandoned his former hesitation about embracing cheesy shenanigans of his own. Refer to double proxy BC. I suspect TY won't feel a need to play cheesy in TvT given that he said it's his most confident MU. For what it's worth TY and Inno are at 7-7, 2-2 this year with TY winning the more recent matches. I just realized that I completely forgot to mention Cure. I like how you didn't even question it though
Well I don't believe in a God so I have a hard time trusting in un Dieu.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 28 2020 18:10 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 17:58 deacon.frost wrote:On May 28 2020 16:41 Veluvian wrote:
Unfortunately got to admit that recently in Korea top protosses do not show the level they should. Parting was brilliant against Maru but such micro style is hard to be kept consistently. Not sure how the current meta is fine or not but at least this time... TY, if you can read this - please take that damn Code S trophy, we've been waiting for it at least for 5 years.
But overall, I'm disappointed by the toss power. sOs plays like he doesn't care anymore. Yeah, the hidden nexus in Bunny's back looks cool but this is not serious if you really want to do something significant to the final. Zest was humiliated which is like something you can't imagine for such a monster in the past. Trap is not Trap from the last year and yet he was kind of close to surprise Inno. Stats is fading. Dear was actually the greatest disappointment. It could be Scarlett or Rogue on his place in Ro8. Classic is in the military and I really miss him. Honestly seems like only Rain can switch again to SC2 and do something worth but he have won all that could be won already Maru lost because for whatever reason he didn't play like Maru. Don't know who advocated for that play, but it was really stupid idea. Korea doesn't have top Protosses anymore, closest players are Dear, Trap and Zest and we have to rely on them to play well. Which means Dear/Trap find their lost mojo. Zest is just randomly the best in LotV as it seems, sadly. Stats is fading because his army departure is near. All three races in Korea nowadays have only a handful of absolute top players, unfortunately. For Terran it's Maru, Innovation, TY, Cure, with Dream and Taeja slowly getting there again. For Protoss it's Zest, Trap and a fading Stats, with Dear and Patience middling and Parting getting back to a high level. For Zerg you only really have Rogue, Dark, and then I'd say Ragnarok, soO and DRG. The thing is, among those top players, only Terrans and Zergs actually win tournaments. At the very top level, Protoss has been in a pretty sorry state for a while. It's been over a year since a Protoss last won a big tournament (Classic in Super Tournament). + Show Spoiler +On May 28 2020 16:14 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 16:02 DarkGamer wrote:On May 28 2020 15:49 Olli wrote:On May 28 2020 14:31 doggietres wrote:On May 28 2020 13:47 RKC wrote:
Parting's blink-stalker timing attack looks pretty strong. Even if the attack doesn't kill Terran, Protoss can macro safely behind to build an advantage for the late game (like G6). Dismantled Maru, and won games off TY. So strong that it probably forced them to pull of cheesy openings to delay or disrupt the timing.
I'm somewhat surprised Terran doesn't have a better counter (aside from cheesy openings). Mix some marauders in? Defensive widow mines instead of tanks (mines can also be used for offensive drops easily)? The thing is mines are easy to dodge with blink. Tanks come out way too slow for blink. If you put a tech lab instead of a reactor on the rax, you don't get enough marauders to make a difference. I agree with a previous post. Cheesing shouldn't be a way to counter something too strong. Blink stalker lets you take fast 3rd without really worrying about anything. This game also just shows you how bad protoss players are at micro, but eventually, when the toss players practice, I reckon that skill level will go up Almost all of this is wrong. Blink is the preferred opening because it can handle the largest variety of Terran openings, but Parting's specific 4gate variant is only powerful in the meta right now because Terrans are being greedy with their tech after expand. They'll follow up with a 1-1-1 setup, do mine or hellion drops, add an ebay and delay stim for all that. Some even go 1-1-1, Ebay, third CC, then additional rax. You can go back to Maru vs Parting and see how it did against a more robust 3rax followup - it did nothing and Parting lost. But no, even tanks don't come out too slowly to defend it. The only reason TY died to Parting's attack on Eternal Empire is because his positioning and control was poor and he kept bleeding tanks so that he never had enough to cover two bases. He continuously had siege tanks unprotected and units in vulnerable positions - marines in the main and tank visible on the ramp, tank on the edge of the main cliff, then no marines in his bunker in the main. Front door wide open for stalkers to walk in. Compare that to the Nightshade game and you see how hard it can be to get anything done as the blink aggressor if Terran defends properly. Second bunker in the front, tanks protected behind rax in the main. Parting got very little done, had to commit in deep because 4gate blink is a big investment that requires returns, and TY happily deflected him. You're delaying upgrades, tech, and keeping your probe count low to do it, only to end up with a handful of bruised stalkers if it doesn't do significant damage. It's a strong build no doubt, but it isn't too strong by any means. As for expand builds, blink is very useful but not too powerful by any means. It's the only really useful tool you have to keep Terran contained for a while, slow them down as they move across the map, and get the necessary army up to defend their pushes. SG is frankly not very good anymore after the charge nerf. You just don't have the straight up fighting power to beat the super common marine/tank pushes reliably with a charge followup, and blink after SG dies even harder. Phoenix/colossus is somewhat useful again, but that's quite weak to a lot of other things Terran could be doing (3rax +1 timing, for example) and you can be pretty committed to it before you know what it is they're doing. Also highly map dependent. Lastly, I'd appreciate if you stopped calling top Protoss poor at micro. To put it mildly, that's absolute bullshit. i think you are a right with a lot if this. but interestingly parting wasnt behind after the failed 4 gate blink stalker strategy beside ty hold it perfectly. if he would not have a-clicked 1/2 of his army with his following timing attack on the 3. base he would have won, wouldnt he? Yes, in G6, Parting managed to gain an economic lead despite TY holding off his blink-stalker aggression. Perhaps TY may have gained a slender tech lead due to Parting delaying his robo and forge upgrades? Either way, things just even out - the build looks pretty solid and strong (as Protoss takes the initiative, gains map control, and has the opportunity to punish if not kill off Terran). So what's Terran optimal counter then? Mech? Parting wasn't ahead economically. TY finished his third CC while Parting's attack was still going on. TY lost 25 gas worth of units during that whole attack, Parting lost 500, with comparable mineral losses. Worker counts were at 42 (TY) to 53 (Parting) when the attack ended and Parting had only just started his third base while TY was dropping triple MULEs. That's not an economic lead, if anything I'd give an edge to TY there. And tech-wise TY was definitely ahead too, with stim and combat shields finishing, tanks, a starport done for medivac production, 4th and 5th rax already being built while Parting was on stalkers and a forge, only getting a robotics bay. TY also got double ebay down pretty fast after the attack so his 1/1 finished when Parting was only on +1 attack and a single forge. An economic lead for Parting only came later, after he scouted that TY chose a really passive approach to the midgame with double factory, straight into ghost academy and 4th CC, and Parting responded by expanding aggressively, as you're supposed to against turtle styles. Parting saw that and wanted to commit to an attack to do some damage and slow TY down, I assume because he knew he was behind and didn't want to let TY just macro, but it failed and Parting was always quite far behind from there. It's a strong build no doubt, and it isn't all-in as you can expand, try to contain and transition, but you're certainly looking for some damage or you'll end up behind .
I dare to say that there's currently no top Protoss player in Korea - comparable to Dark, Maru or Innovation. As TY occassionally has his brilliant spikes into the top dog territory, same can be said for soO and Zest. Trap can be in this category as well. The rest is in a category bellow where I would agree with you.
Protoss lost Stats, Classic and herO(who was in the occassional brilliance category) and everybody is looking towards Zest to be the best.
|
This was another very impressive series from TY. So happy to see him make the Code S finals again. Now he has more time that his opponent to prepare for what he already know is a TvT, and he can even watch his opponent play a Bo7 TvT on Saturday. Unfortunately, his opponent will also be a very strong TvT player but you still have to say that TY has a good shot at this. I really hope he wins the championship this time, he deserves it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
